Using a Plastic Collar With a Chuck....

[Wally Dickerman]

As just about everybody knows, I've been teaching turning for a lot of years. I get emails from former students, usually asking for help or advice. That's fine, in fact I encourage it.

The latest was concerning using plastic spindle washers or collars to keep from getting a stuck faceplate or chuck. He asked at his club and got several replies, all on how to make your own. My reply? "Mike, with all due respect to your fellow club members, you got bad advice".

Since we have had a couple of threads on this subject, I thought that I would give you my take on it.

Chucks and faceplates should be used with firm metal to metal contact. In other words, no washer. Any experienced turner can tell that the cut with a tool isn't as firm when using plastic or cardboard or whatever, between the faceplate and the spindle. If the lathe or chuck manufacturers felt that there should be plastic there they would supply it.

In my many years of turning I can only remember getting one seriously stuck faceplate. And that was my fault. I had mounted a faceplate holding a fairly large and heavy blank. I didn't finish threading it on tightly. Stopped to get the wrench to tighten it, couldn't find it, and then without thinking I flipped the on switch. The weight of that heavy blank snapped the faceplate home with a bang. My lathe at the time was a General 260. Fortunately, it had a good spindle lock. I found that the wrench supplied by General was made of pot metal. Banging on it with a heavy mallet broke it. I finally rented a large. long handled pipe wrench and using the mallet, broke the faceplate free.

Lesson learned? When installing a faceplate or chuck I always use a wrench or chuck key to firmly snap it on to seat it. I've done this many thousands of time since the stuck faceplate incident, and have never had a seriously stuck chuck or faceplate. I advise you to to the same.

I know that some will disagree.

Wally

[Alan Trout]

Wally,

I agree 100%

Alan

[Reed Gray]

I have used the plastic washers for years with no problems. I have had a few times when the chuck would be difficult for even me to arm wrestle off. With the washer this is no problem at all. The thing that seems to get it stuck on the most is coring where the vibration tends to lock it down even tighter. I would suspect that the make it your self variety can cause problems, mostly because of softer inconsistent material. The commercially available models are made from very hard plastic, so there are no compression issues, and no uneven material involved in the making or the product. I have experienced no run out issues or vibration issues. They do not work like a lock washer to keep things from unwinding if you use reverse.

I think this is like tenon vs recess. Both work, and it is a matter of personal preference.

The one problem it doesn't solve is when it gets snugged down too tight, and when you try to remove your chuck, the insert stays on, and the chuck comes off.

robo hippy

[Scott Hackler]

I dont have a "washer" so I cant attest to that, but without the washer AND set screw AND in reverse, made the chuck fly off the lathe! After I installed that set screw, I have NEVER removed my chuck and dont plan on removing the chuck until I replace it.

[Roger Chandler]

I had a craftsman 15" vs lathe, and the problem of sticking was frequent. It got so bad that in trying to get the face plate off, I actually stripped the gears on the gear shaft in the headstock, and not another could be found on this planet........had to get a new lathe!

I have a holdfast vacuum system and they recommend a plastic washer to keep their adapters and chucks from sticking, and they send one in the package with each chuck.

I never had a problem with run out with a plastic washer at all. With my new lathe, I don't always use one for everything because it has a spindle lock.

[robert davis]

i have used 1/8 masonite on my various lathes ,general , nova, jet,etc fot 15 years. i get a solid contact. would not think of going metal to metal. to each his own. tempered masonite of course

[Wally Dickerman]

Well, I guess that I should never say never. I'm getting some replies that disagree with my metal to metal theory.

I haven't changed my mind but my curiosity is aroused. I decided to do some checking. I asked Bill Neddow who is a Canadian full time turner of bowls whose opinion I value. His bowls are mostly large. He does a lot of coring. He replied that metal to metal is the correct way and agreed with me that inserting plastic or anything else that is soft, adversly affects the cut. I also checked with Oneway, lathe and chuck manufacturer. They say that lathes and chucks are designed to be used metal to metal.

Metal to metal works for me. Apparantly not for everybody.

Wally

[neil mackay]

Wally,

I totally agree 100%. I started turning at 13 now I'm 60+ never had a problem other than as you did through not paying attention.

[ray hampton]

Well, I guess that I should never say never. I'm getting some replies that disagree with my metal to metal theory.

I haven't changed my mind but my curiosity is aroused. I decided to do some checking. I asked Bill Neddow who is a Canadian full time turner of bowls whose opinion I value. His bowls are mostly large. He does a lot of coring. He replied that metal to metal is the correct way and agreed with me that inserting plastic or anything else that is soft, adversly affects the cut. I also checked with Oneway, lathe and chuck manufacturer. They say that lathes and chucks are designed to be used metal to metal.

Metal to metal works for me. Apparantly not for everybody.

Wally


when you say "metal to metal" I hope that the metal are steel not a softer metal

[Wally Dickerman]

when you say "metal to metal" I hope that the metal are steel not a softer metal

Ray, what I mean by metal to metal is using a chuck or a faceplate firmly seated against the spindle collar.

Wally

[Matt Hutchinson]

I can't say I disagree that chucks should be used metal to metal.

That said, I have used plastic washers made from yogurt container lids since I started turning. (The first lathe I purchased is my large pattern maker's, and it has a 23.5" swing.) The plastic washer was critical to have installed with large bowls, especially when roughing. There were several times when I couldn't remove the chuck without using a pipe wrench and a pipe on its handle. This is partly due to the poor design of the Vicmarc inserts.....they don't have flat sides on which you can use wrenches. If the insert was machined differently, I might be able to stop using the plastic washers.

On my NOVA lathe, I generally don't turn anything larger than 10", and I have never used plastic washers. I generally don't have problems with my chuck jamming like on the big lathe.

Also, I have finished a few 20"+ diameter bowls with the washer installed (though I have roughed a good number). Stability didn't seem to be a problem. I was able to keep the tool engaged with light finishing cuts without problems. But I haven't finished a large quantity of big bowls, so read my comments with that in mind.

Fun debate. :D

Hutch

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Not that I have a monster 23.5" lathe. Have you tried to use your chuck key, or clamp your knockout rod or something similar in the chuck and give it a good sudden whack to pop the chuck free? Many times it works with a sudden jolt vice LOTS of pressure with a pipe wrench and extension. That puts a lot of load on the gears. A sudden hit takes advantage of the gear mass, and IMO you have less of a chance of damaging or stripping gears. Just my opinion.

[john taliaferro]

i run steel on steel with light oil . only a few times was their a problem a few weeks back doing a big globe vase i heard something stoped and it was two turns loose . it was not tight enough when i put it on had to much load on threads. its drying now 92" don't no what it weight screwed my scale at 900

[John Keeton]

After I installed that set screw, I have NEVER removed my chuck and dont plan on removing the chuck until I replace it.Scott, are you saying that you leave the same chuck on your lathe all the time? I change chucks like underwear - or even more often. With 4 chucks all set up differently, it is so convenient, plus using a drive center for spindle roughing, etc.

On my Delta 46-460, I do not use a washer, and don't have any issues with getting the chuck off. I just lightly spin it on so it seats, and have not had any issues. Of course, I am not coring, or roughing 20+" blanks either!

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I certainly agree with you Wally, chucks should be fitted metal to metal.
You take a metal turning lathe that gets a lot more torque put onto the chucks, they are always fitted metal to metal with this type of chuck.
With soft material between the chuck and spindle collar the chuck is able to sit off center as the soft material can give on one side due to say tread that isn't exactly 100% straight.
But good Quality is were the difference shows in fitting and not seizing up :eek:

[Dave Ogren]

Wally, John, and Leo,

I agree, metal to metal with a light oil works perfect. Couldn't use a washer with a bayonet or cam-lock set up.

Dave

[ray hampton]

is it possible that a light coat of oil or grease on the collet and spindle are making the removal harder

[charlie knighton]

Wally,

i agree with you, metal to metal

i have had 2 different lathes, i have used plastic washers on both, i ended up with runout on both, trying to adjust the legs, finally take the plastic washer off and on both lathes it trued up, nothing is as frustrating as runout on you lathe :eek:

[Don Orr]

I am a convert to the "no washer " club. I ahd been using them for sevaral years but not long ago I noticed unacceptable runout. Got rid the washer and no more runout. No more plastic for me-metal to metal from now on.

As usual Wally, your experience is a treasure and thanks for sharing.

[Allen stagg]

Only time metal to metal has been hard to remove for me was when I tried to spin the chuck as quick as possible to snap it tightly to each other. This made it hard to remove when this was done but after I was warned from Lyle Jamieson that this is not a good idea and the washer allowed small vibration, I now turn the chuck slowly until it bottoms out and tighten more with a small bar to secure and I have had no issues of having to try to take off the chuck other than normal tools to remove again. Snapping it into place was not as good of an idea as I thought it was. I had just bought some of the plastic washers just before I found out the info from Lyle. He said that he confirmed this from a machinist or machinist engineer, don't remember, but he stated that the metal is supposed to come into actual contact with the metal on the lathe to have complete installation with no interference with a washer. I take his word for it and have had no issues since I quit trying to slam the chuck on the spindle.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I to quit using the plastic washers and my run out went away.

[Matt Hutchinson]

.............

[Aaron Wingert]

I'm on the side that respectfully disagrees with anyone that says that using a washer is truly bad advice. I've had both of my chucks get stuck (even doing my little duck calls and turkey calls, not big bowls), so I now use a hard nylon washer on the spindle. It is very hard plastic and causes zero issues with precision/accuracy/runout. I can see that having a material that can be compressed or easily deformed could cause some real issues. Mine is "glued" to the shoulder of the spindle at the headstock with a thin smear of axle grease, and I never even realize it is there anymore. Having used one, I'll never be without a washer again.