Alcohol Content for Brands of Denatured Alcohol

[David Weaver]

Just some quick MSDS looks provides the following
(trying to find content for options available locally)

* SLX Kleen Strip denatured alcohol is approximately 40-50% ethyl alcohol and 40-50% methyl alcohol. That sucks! I've used it with good luck, but never figured that it had that much methyl in it. This is the blue stuff at the BORG

* Sunnyside's DNA (product code 834A from them) is somewhat confusing because the ingredients by weight don't add to 100%. At least 85% is DNA, but unsure about the rest. One of the trade names is something to the effect of "95% pure". One of the other ingredients is naptha.

If you find any interesting, please add to the list.

[David Weaver]

* Klean strip green - 90-100% ethyl alcohol. not cheap, but not terribly expensive. Much better composition than the blue borg stuff.

Methyl, MIBK and Acetic acid (!) make up the remainder.

What's the vinegar for?

[Joseph Klosek]

I use Lynsol produced by the Savogran Corp.

86-87% Ethanol
3-4% Methanol
1% Ethyl Acetate
1% Methyl Isobutyl Ketone
<1% Hydrocarbon Solvent
7% Water

[David Weaver]

I was just about to post that one. 7% water! As long as it gets out before the finish hardens, I guess. Not much methyl in it.

[David Weaver]

Startex -
65-75% ethanol
15-25% methanol

remainder is ethyl acetate and heptane.

[Joseph Klosek]

I was just about to post that one. 7% water! As long as it gets out before the finish hardens, I guess. Not much methyl in it.

I have never had any issues with this brand of alcohol.

I prefer it to the other types with considerable amounts of methanol.

From what I understand about alcohol, it is very difficult to get a pure ethanol since it readily absorbs water from the air.

Most labratory forms of "Absolute" ethanol containe benzene in order to get 99.?% pure ethanol.

I think Tools For Working Wood now carries some type of alcohol that they are calling Anhydrous.

Have you tried that stuff?

J.P.

[David Weaver]

No. I know I don't have any interest in dealing with something with benzene, though.

Experience counts, so if you've had good luck with it, I'm interested in it, regardless of the water content.

I didn't realize until loafing through my shop while on the phone tonight that I have a gallon of sunnyside DNA. I'll try that first and save the SLX for cleaning brushes and spray guns.

[Rick Markham]

By chemical nature, alcohol must contain a small percentage of water. It's the nature of the substance. Therefore there will always be a small water content.

Benzene is nasty stuff and a known carcinogen. I am more than a little surprised if anything is being offered with a known benzene content. If it is, I would (personally) choose another product before subjecting myself to that. Laboratory grade ethanol with a benzene content in it is always used in a chemical hood with protective gloves. Benzene can be absorbed through the skin, the fumes aren't the only dangerous component. MSDS sheets are an accurate way of finding out ingredients, I'm glad to see y'all using them. Which reminds me, I need to look up what's in the DNA I have sitting around :)

[Joel Moskowitz]

I have never had any issues with this brand of alcohol.

I prefer it to the other types with considerable amounts of methanol.

From what I understand about alcohol, it is very difficult to get a pure ethanol since it readily absorbs water from the air.

Most labratory forms of "Absolute" ethanol containe benzene in order to get 99.?% pure ethanol.

I think Tools For Working Wood now carries some type of alcohol that they are calling Anhydrous.

Have you tried that stuff?

J.P.

If something says it's pure ethanol it's ethanol - look at the MSDS.
there are two ways to get the water out of ethanol 1 - use benzine - then filter out the benzine. I don't know if traces remain but it there were any trace it had better be on the MSDS.
2 - use special ceramic pellets that trap the water.

[Allan Speers]

Regarding Kleen Strip "Green" DNA The percentage of methanol cannot be found anywhere online, and I've looked hard. All the company claims is that it's made from "95% renewable resources." WTF does THAT mean?

David, if you have a confirmed source for what you wrote, I'd love to see it.


FWIW, here's one woodworker who claims it doesn't even dissolve shellack flakes properly:

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3016

[Allan Speers]

These guys sell a 95% ethanol DNA: https://www.shellac.net/alcohol.html

They also claim that both Startex and Behkol are also 95% ethanol, and so recommend these. However, they offer no proof and may have been as mislead as everyone else by "careful" advertising. I dunno. (I wish I did.)


Personally, I'm sticking with 100 % ethanol. It's a small price to pay for peace of mind.

Not if I can just rig me that still ...........

[Jim Koepke]

Personally, I'm sticking with 100 % ethanol. It's a small price to pay for peace of mind.

Some chemical supply houses might carry pure, un-denatured ethanol . It is used for cleaning lab equipment. A friend of mine once brought some of this home just for fun. If you didn't consume too much, it would only burn on the way down.


All the company claims is that it's made from "95% renewable resources." WTF does THAT mean?

It is most likely made from grain. It is a renewable resource.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Places that need medicinal grade alcohol sometimes use an ingredient such as bitrex to keep employees from having "drinks on the house".

[george wilson]

Mel: Their technique might be to have a short drink on the house,then another short drink,then a LONG drink on the house!!

In Williamsburg,they use Everclear to dissolve shellac flakes in the cabinet shop. But,that practice was begun sometime after I became Toolmaker. I understand you can buy Everclear across the counter in West Va.. Here,it takes a permit,which is kind of silly since there is really no kind of test or no way for the state to know if it is being drunk or not. You just apply for a permit,and after months of waiting some little demigod finally grants it. These people are truly a pain to deal with here in Wmsbg. You have to have a permit for everything,and they enjoy using their little bit of power.

My wife was using denatured alcohol to make a solution of borax to coat her silver jewelry with before soldering. This prevents a layer of silver oxide from forming while you are getting it red hot for soldering with silver solder. She was getting headaches,and I thought it might be from smelling the stuff in denatured alcohol. So,I suggested 200 proof ethyl alcohol. Took her months to get the permit. She never did end up using the stuff as she found another method to prevent the silver oxide from forming while she was waiting.

[Mel Fulks]

Virginia had Everclear until 9/11. A cousin used to tell of his fraternity useing it in their party punch which was always mixed in a new plastic garbage can...much better than having to wash the old one.

[Jim Koepke]

Virginia had Everclear until 9/11. A cousin used to tell of his fraternity useing it in their party punch which was always mixed in a new plastic garbage can...much better than having to wash the old one.

Me thinks just because they used it at the fraternity doesn't mean Virginia allowed its over the counter sales. It is just too easy to cross state lines to have that stop a determined frat house.

jtk

[John Stankus]

If you want Ethanol without water, look for anhydrous ethanol (or anhydrous ethyl alcohol). It will be more expensive, since water and ethanol form an azeotrope which means you can't get purer than about 95% by weight by distillation. That is why ever clear is 190 proof. As Joel indicated you can use molecular sieves to dry it or use a co solvent to try to get the water out. But as soon as you open the container it will be absorbing moisture from the air.

John

[Prashun Patel]

...But as soon as you open the container it will be absorbing moisture from the air.

Anhydrous Ethanol requires specialized storage beyond the resources of most households.

95% ethanol, which is about equilibrium in my plant, is fine. The presence of the water doesn't make a practical difference in any application I have found from solubility with different oils, solvents, or shellac.

It is hard to know what you are getting if you by generic DNA. If you ask for the "SD" number, the Alcohol Tax and Trade Bureau has charts that'll convert the "SD" number to a formula. In practicality, almost all of them will be similarly compatible with shellac. You won't notice the difference. But if you are concerned with dealing with phthalates, or methanol or other items, then you should know your SD number. FWIW, anyone selling it is supposed to be licensed for particular formulas of it.

[george wilson]

Have you seen the recent commercial about whiskey(I forget the brand) that mentions "The Angels'Cut" and "The Devil's Cut"(or,the whiskey that penetrates the wooden barrel?). They advertise selling "The Devil's Cut",which is the whiskey that had penetrated into the wooden barrel.

I don't understand this at all. Our coopers said that coopers would sometimes put some hot water into an empty barrel and roll the barrel (Is that where the old song "Roll Out the Barrel" came from)? but,this was dangerous to drink because it had wood alcohol in it. Of course,alcoholics didn't pay much attention to what was good for them!

So,how can they advertise selling whiskey that had soaked into the wooden barrel? How is it not poisonous?

[Jim Belair]

Soaking ethanol into wood doesn't make wood alcohol (methanol). If the coopers were telling you that I think they wanted it all to themselves.

[Prashun Patel]

Soaking ethanol in wood extracts flavor and odor compounds from the wood. Alcohol is a pretty good solvent for this. It is also used to make vanilla extract.

[Malcolm McLeod]

...aka whiskey!

[Patrick Chase]

Have you seen the recent commercial about whiskey(I forget the brand) that mentions "The Angels'Cut" and "The Devil's Cut"(or,the whiskey that penetrates the wooden barrel?). They advertise selling "The Devil's Cut",which is the whiskey that had penetrated into the wooden barrel.

I don't understand this at all. Our coopers said that coopers would sometimes put some hot water into an empty barrel and roll the barrel (Is that where the old song "Roll Out the Barrel" came from)? but,this was dangerous to drink because it had wood alcohol in it. Of course,alcoholics didn't pay much attention to what was good for them!

So,how can they advertise selling whiskey that had soaked into the wooden barrel? How is it not poisonous?

Jim Beam.

If you read their ad copy closely they're playing some interesting games with wording. They talk about extracting "liquid" from the barrel, but are very vague about just what part of the Bourbon they're recovering and what percentage of the final product is extracted. If there were an issue with wood fermentation (I don't know) then it looks to me like they could remove the alcohol (both kinds) from the barrel extract without having a truth-in-advertising issue.

[george wilson]

The coopers were in Williamsburg by the time they related the story. No empty whiskey barrels here to roll about! In England they had worked at a brewery. They worked in a small shack WITH NO WINDOWS by CANDLE LIGHT! (How inefficient could they be? ) They had to make 2 casks a day to support themselves. In Williamsburg,they took MUCH longer than that!

[Brian Holcombe]

My understanding is that they're washing the inside of the barrels with water then using that water to cut the whiskey from cask strength down to their typical strength.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Next thread: What is the average alcohol content of people who post in Neanderthal Haven?

But seriously, much was learned in this thread regarding alcohol content. I guess now I also know why I can never find 100%. I thought they were either being cheap, or tryin to keep the flashpoint to shipable levels.

[Tom Vanzant]

Similar threads can be found on YouTube regarding fuels for alcohol-burning backpacking stoves...ranging from rubbing alcohol to Everclear and lab-grade alcohols, both ethanol and methanol, down to energy content and cost per ounce. We are not alone in attention to minutiae.

[Prashun Patel]

With our products even 5 pct ethanol in a product can cause it to become hazmat flammable.

[Patrick Chase]

My understanding is that they're washing the inside of the barrels with water then using that water to cut the whiskey from cask strength down to their typical strength.

Yeah, that's what I sort of suspected based on their wording. It's "cut" all right :-).

One of the downsides of having spent a career designing products is that I have a deep appreciation for hinky ad copy...

[Allan Speers]

If anyone is interested, and as I recently posted on another thread:

While you can't get everclear in about 15 states, not even delivered from the internet, you CAN get Graves 190 proof grain alcohol, which is of course the same thing. (Foolish lawmakers.... :rolleyes: )

I just ordered some from "International Wine Shop."
Two 1 liter bottles (I couldn't find the 2 liter bottle anywhere) delivered to NY State for $94, all-in.
That's not too bad, considering how long it will last me.

[Prashun Patel]

I respect your choice Allan, but is the quality of flake produced shellac that much better than seal coat at about 40 a gallon?

[Patrick Chase]

I respect your choice Allan, but is the quality of flake produced shellac that much better than seal coat at about 40 a gallon?

I think we all know that's in the eye of the beholder :-).

FWIW I use SealCoat as a base layer and sealant, though I also use flakes as a finish. SealCoat's chemistry (http://www.rustoleum.com/MSDS/ENGLISH/854.pdf) is interesting though. I would not have guessed that you could stabilize shellac that way.

[Allan Speers]

I respect your choice Allan, but is the quality of flake produced shellac that much better than seal coat at about 40 a gallon?


Never tried the stuff.

Is sealcoat that much better than flake shellac? (You tell me. :) )

[Mike Henderson]

Never tried the stuff.

Is sealcoat that much better than flake shellac? (You tell me. :) )
If you want to use the shellac as a sealer, I would purchase SealCoat rather than try to make my own dewaxed shellac from flakes.

But if you plan to use the shellac as a finish, I'd probably go with the flakes (if I had flakes and alcohol). To do a good French polish, you need the wax in the shellac.

Mike

[Bob Boettcher]

I am going to use DNA for soaking bowls, and checked this thread for advice. I looked at the cans of Sunnyside brand (Menards) and found two types.
The one labeled Denatured Alcohol Solvent was labeled as less than 4% Methanol. Methanol is my main concern due to toxicity. I had a newer can, labeled denatured alcohol for stove fuel. When I checked the Safety Data Sheets for ALL of the Sunnyside versions of DNA, they all have the same product number 834 and contain 30-60% ethanol and 30-61% methanol, not good at all.
I checked all the other stores and numerous brands, and the only one I found readily available was Klean Strip Green, which is 95% ethanol and a small amount of methanol.
This brand was available by special order only from Menards, and on the shelf at Home Depot. I called the manufacturer, W M Barr and they package only in pints and quarts, not in 5-gal pails, which makes it quite pricey, 6.67 per quart, 26.68 per gallon, or 133.4 for 5-gal.
For comparison, Menards sells Sunnyside DNA thinner for 35.3 for 5-gal, but with a minimum of 30% methanol. Cheap or safe, that is the choice.
I wonder if the use of ethanol in gasoline has driven up the price?

Bob Boettcher

[Mel Fulks]

Denatured means poisonous,and that is the main legal requirement. So they can use whatever they want. For your purpose I would just look for cheap and avoid the fumes.

[Thomas L Carpenter]

All ethanol is alcohol but not all alcohols are ethanol. Ethanol with no denaturant is taxable/regulated as booze regardless if it's consumed or used to clean equipment. It's all about the bucks.

[glenn bradley]

David beat me to it. Here's the info from the website:

366301

[John Stankus]

David beat me to it.

By seven years no less!:eek:

[Patrick Chase]

I am going to use DNA for soaking bowls, and checked this thread for advice. I looked at the cans of Sunnyside brand (Menards) and found two types.
The one labeled Denatured Alcohol Solvent was labeled as less than 4% Methanol. Methanol is my main concern due to toxicity. I had a newer can, labeled denatured alcohol for stove fuel. When I checked the Safety Data Sheets for ALL of the Sunnyside versions of DNA, they all have the same product number 834 and contain 30-60% ethanol and 30-61% methanol, not good at all.
I checked all the other stores and numerous brands, and the only one I found readily available was Klean Strip Green, which is 95% ethanol and a small amount of methanol.
This brand was available by special order only from Menards, and on the shelf at Home Depot. I called the manufacturer, W M Barr and they package only in pints and quarts, not in 5-gal pails, which makes it quite pricey, 6.67 per quart, 26.68 per gallon, or 133.4 for 5-gal.
For comparison, Menards sells Sunnyside DNA thinner for 35.3 for 5-gal, but with a minimum of 30% methanol. Cheap or safe, that is the choice.
I wonder if the use of ethanol in gasoline has driven up the price?

Bob Boettcher

Liquids containing Ethanol that are not otherwise toxic (specifically that aren't otherwise toxic enough to hurt you before you can get drunk) are legally classified as liquors. As Mel alluded, the entire point of DNA is that it's poisonous, such that it isn't legally a liquor.

If you want something that you can use for a bowl then your best bet may be Everclear 190 (oh the hazy memories) or lab-grade Ethanol. They'll both cost more as they're both taxed as liquor, but so it goes.

Of course if you know somebody with a still...

[Mel Fulks]

I've wondered ( but not researched ) why they don't use the word "poisonous". Many products are marked poisonous. Since they mean same thing why use a pretty obscure word ? We all have heard of deaths from bad real hooch and "cheap imitations " of REAL hooch.

[roger wiegand]

I have never had any issues with this brand of alcohol.

Most labratory forms of "Absolute" ethanol containe benzene in order to get 99.?% pure ethanol.

J.P.


It's been 30+ years since ethanol was co-distilled with benzene to produce absolute ethanol. Even then, the whole point was to make pure ethanol so there wasn't much, if any, benzene in the ethanol. I'm not sure what the current method is, but it doesn't involve benzene.

[Ted Phillips]

Denatured means poisonous,and that is the main legal requirement. So they can use whatever they want. For your purpose I would just look for cheap and avoid the fumes.

DENATURED doesn't mean poisonous necessarily. It just means that additives make it undrinkable. Many companies use "bitterants" that make it taste really bad without making it poisonous. I generally avoid the big box "Denatured Alcohol" because they tend to use Methyl Alcohol, which is poisonous. I've also had several failures to dissolve flake shellac with big box DNA. I don't use it any more.

The best solution I've found is to purchase DNA sold as fuel for stoves and indoor fireplaces. You can get it by the quart or gallon on Amazon (often with free shipping) and if you select a brand that is advertised as "non-toxic" (most are), it will be high-proof Ethyl Alcohol with added bitterants - no Methyl and no Benzene.

[roger wiegand]

For making up shellac I use the "Bekhol" proprietary mix from Behlen for making up my shellac. It works well, seems to have a long shelf life once the flakes are dissolved, and is not subject to the reformulation whims of the big box store providers. I only use a couple liters a year, so the overall cost is trivial. I rinse my brushes out in whatever I've picked up most recently at the Borg, they all seem to be fine for that.

In grad school we used to redistill the lab 95% ethanol, then we found that treating with activated carbon and filtration removed all the nasties and produced quite a palatable product.

[Mel Fulks]

Good point ,Ted. I've heard that medical alcohol is made bitter to ...make it last longer. But it is still expensive even though it probably is exempt from the high taxes on the the good stuff.
I've seen a few comments that seem to imply that grain alcohol has gone from liquor stores for some health thing. Some states never allowed it. But the reason it's disappearing is post 911 precautions. Federal law now requires buildings that have it stored to have much higher fire proofing.

[Mel Fulks]

I like the Bekhol,too. It's never gotten much traction here but it's dependable.

[Ted Phillips]

Here's a link to the Ethyl Alcohol stove fuel (https://www.amazon.com/Moda-Flame-Premium-Ethanol-Fireplace/dp/B00EYARLCC/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1503415928&sr=8-15&keywords=alcohol%2Bfuel&th=1) I use from Amazon. Really good stuff and completely non-toxic. I've used it to dissolve some older shellac that wouldn't dissolve in Borg DNA. With prime, you can get 6 liters for $40 shipped.

The wife and I also have a Moda Flame indoor fireplace that burns this fuel. It works beautifully - much less smelly and messy than kerosene lamps.

[William Fretwell]

Ethanol will absorb water from the atmosphere until it contains 5% water. Essentially it gets expensive to remove the last 5% water. Little black microfilter pellets grab the water by adsorbtion. You should be able to heat them and drive off the water to re-use them. They are only really viable for the last 1-2% of water. In Canada I can buy 94% ethanol from the liquor store with a 'permit'. It costs more than good vodka however. I think Cdn $100 for 1.14 Litres.

[Patrick Chase]

Ethanol will absorb water from the atmosphere until it contains 5% water. Essentially it gets expensive to remove the last 5% water.

The same goes for isopropanol (rubbing alcohol), though 99%+ isopropyl is more widely available than similar ethanol concentrations. That water won't stay out though unless you have a very well-controlled environment for storage, though.

[David Dalzell]

The Kleenstrip "Safety Data Sheet" claims Ethyl alcohol {Ethanol} 80.0 -90.0 % , Methyl alcohol < 5.0 % , Acetic acid, ethyl ester 1.5 %

[James Waldron]

The Kleenstrip "Safety Data Sheet" claims Ethyl alcohol {Ethanol} 80.0 -90.0 % , Methyl alcohol < 5.0 % , Acetic acid, ethyl ester 1.5 %

Well, it's good to know what somewhere between 86.5 to 96.5 percent of the juice is made of. Does anyone wonder what the balance is? Maybe we are supposed to assume it's all water? Or did something get missed here? If it's not reported on the MSDS it must be benign, right? Right?

[John K Jordan]

The Kleenstrip "Safety Data Sheet" claims Ethyl alcohol {Ethanol} 80.0 -90.0 % , Methyl alcohol < 5.0 % , Acetic acid, ethyl ester 1.5 %

The Kleen Strip MSDS I found indicates something different for denatured alcohol:

Ethyl alcohol 30.0 -50.0 %
Methanol 40.0 -60.0 %

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjhleLq3u3VAhVi34MKHemICowQFgguMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.korellis.com%2Fwordpress%2Fw p-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F05%2FAlcohol-Denatured.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG0Tidz147GbP0uVrUipLHg0w2YAQ

Methanol is nasty stuff.

JKJ

[John Schtrumpf]

There are 2 products:

Klean-Strip® Green™ Denatured Alcohol: contains 85-90% ethanol, and less than 5% methanol

Klean-Strip® Denatured Alcohol: has between 40 – 50% ethanol and 50 – 55% methanol.

[Ted Phillips]

...and methanol is toxic. It absorbs through the skin, and 2 oz is a lethal dose for an adult. Two tbsp of methanol can kill a child. Nasty nasty stuff. That's why I recommend staying away from "methylated spirits" and use non-toxic denatured ethanol.