True Pro quality stuff at BORGS...

[Clisby Clark]

After reading the previous post about Thomas compressors possibly following most other tool makers in the "Race to the bottom", I wondered what the BORGS still sell that is still high quality stuff I'd be proud to buy and use. Here are some examples I can think of quickly. Feel free to add to the list.

1. HD-Spax screws! These things are the Rolls Royce of screws. I can't believe HD still carries them when they can sell M.I.C for a nickle less.

2. HD&Lowes-Kreg jigs

3. HD/Lowes-Purdy paint brushes

4. Lowes-Bessey Clamps HD-Jorgensen clamps

5. That's about it for me. Sad state of affairs...

[Russell Smallwood]

I was very happy with the free paint stir stick I got at Home Depot the other day.

[Bill Huber]

Do you mean to leave out their great plywood?:rolleyes:
That is pro quality stuff, right?

[glenn bradley]

Do you mean to leave out their great plywood?:rolleyes:
That is pro quality stuff, right?

Absolutely. BORG ply has never failed to meet my expectations. :D:D:D

[Russell Smallwood]

Is it change your avatar day?

[Justin Green]

Awww c'mon. They're "dovetail" saws are great, too. I can cut curves with mine without even trying.

[Aaron Berk]

I'm happy with the Senco nailers from HD and Werner ladders

[frank shic]

don't forget all the bosch, dewalt, porter-cable, ridgid and milwaukee tools...

[Scot Ferraro]

My local HD carries a full line of Hilti tools...

Scot

[Brian Kent]

Milwaukie Sawzall
Bosch ROS and Jig Saw
Behr Paint
Shop Rags
5 quarts of Watco Danish Oil at $1 per quart when they switched to pints only.

[Rick Fisher]

I believe that when evil woodworkers leave this world, they will go to a place of fire and brimstone, where they are forced to build fine furniture using only supplies purchased at the Borg.

[frank shic]

My local HD carries a full line of Hilti tools...

Scot

oh yeh, forgot about those!

[Victor Robinson]

I believe that when evil woodworkers leave this world, they will go to a place of fire and brimstone, where they are forced to build fine furniture using only supplies purchased at the Borg.

Doable, long as we can make our own wood out of the fire and brimstone.

[Al Garay]

Few more at HD:
Makita slider miter saw
Klein screw drivers, pliers
Echo and Honda garden power tools
Weber grills
Kohler

[Larry Edgerton]

ON the Purdy brushes.....

I bought one from a paint store, and when it was getting worn out I bought what looked like the same one from Lowes as it was close to the job. Turns out it was not the same. It had different colored bristles and would not cut into the small details I needed it for as well, so they may not be the same.

As a high end pro builder, if my regular suppliers went out of business, I could not do my job at all using the Borg. They are great for homeowners that want to walk around on a Saturday afternoon, but I don't have the time or inclination to walk a mile every time I need something. The biggest problem is that they only carry what is profitable, where a good supplier carrys what I need, or can get it in a day or two with just a phone call "TO A SALEMAN THAT KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING!".

If all there were was borgs, I would close up shop........

[Myk Rian]

5 quarts of Watco Danish Oil at $1 per quart when they switched to pints only.
You got robbed. It was going for 37 cents, or less. I got 3 quarts.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Do you mean to leave out their great plywood?:rolleyes:
That is pro quality stuff, right?

I think that's a little harsh. They have (had?) one particular type of 3/4 ply that is perfectly acceptable, and is somewhat inexpensive at $25/sheet. It's birch faced, 7 ply, thick outer veneers, and of the 10 or so sheets I bought, only 2 or 3 sides had any repair patches. It was half the price of the nearest equivalent at my local wood yard, and more useful, as the outer veneers were substantial.

Still, I'm not sure on the definition of "Pro". I don't think there are many professional cabinet makers in the mold of doctors, laywers etc, who are "professionals". I'm sure there are plenty of people who make their living in woodwork and house building etc, but that doesn't make them "professional". I recently had my HVAC renewed by a reputable local company. I was shocked by the state of their tools, and even the brands they used. Ryobi! A once-nice Bosch drill with the cord taped up, the keyed chuck rusted seized etc.

The Germans have a term, "Profi", which is used for "wannabe professionals".

[Gene Howe]

ON the Purdy brushes.....

I bought one from a paint store, and when it was getting worn out I bought what looked like the same one from Lowes as it was close to the job. Turns out it was not the same. It had different colored bristles and would not cut into the small details I needed it for as well, so they may not be the same.

As a high end pro builder, if my regular suppliers went out of business, I could not do my job at all using the Borg. They are great for homeowners that want to walk around on a Saturday afternoon, but I don't have the time or inclination to walk a mile every time I need something. The biggest problem is that they only carry what is profitable, where a good supplier carrys what I need, or can get it in a day or two with just a phone call "TO A SALEMAN THAT KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING!".

If all there were was borgs, I would close up shop........

I'd give up my HOBBY. :eek:

[David Weaver]

They *were* the only place left where you could get decent files, but they helped run cooper out of the country.

So now I have to mail order decent files. The same thing happens all over the store, I just notice it with the files because that's about all I ever got for the shop there.

We just got a new lowes (we had two within about 15 miles, but now have one within 6). The quality of the tools in it royally sucks. I remember from about 20 years ago when lowes came in and pretty much had everything the local hardware store did, and had better prices, but now their prices (HDs too) suck, and the quality of the stuff they sell sucks, too.

We've been had by the bait and switch, and as they're pushed for earnings growth, they'll keep looking to make the gap between expenses and income get greater, which means we'll get poor quality stuff because 98% of the population will buy it anyway, and they'll think that when the tool doesn't work, it might be their lack of skill.

[John Stankus]

I.

Still, I'm not sure on the definition of "Pro". I don't think there are many professional cabinet makers in the mold of doctors, laywers etc, who are "professionals". I'm sure there are plenty of people who make their living in woodwork and house building etc, but that doesn't make them "professional".

Actually, it does make them professional.

According to my American Heritage Dictionary
Professional: 1. Of or engaged in a profession 2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood

The definition of professional does not say anything about quality.

So really the fallacy is that professional means a certain level of quality.

Their definition of profession: an occupation requiring training and specialized study.

John
(waiting to give a professional grade thermodynamics exam ;) )

[Brandon Weiss]

Nice, more BORG bashing. You guys keep bashing the BORGS and going to your regular hardware shops for "the good stuff". That'll free up the BORGs for me so I don't have to stand in line every weekend!

I don't think you can honestly say that everything the BORGs carry sucks. They have plenty of junk, but they have plenty of good stuff too. Same with all size of retailer, that's called carrying a wide range of products. I always laugh at the BORG bashing threads. Funny to see so many people look down their noses at two places that are extremely successful businesses. Come on people, just because you're a woodworker or contractor that works on high end homes/projects doesn't make you so high and mighty that you should talk down on large retailers. If you don't like it, just go somewhere else. No need to talk down about the place because they don't carry everything you consider to be up to your mighty standards.

[David Weaver]

Nice, more BORG bashing. You guys keep bashing the BORGS and going to your regular hardware shops for "the good stuff". That'll free up the BORGs for me so I don't have to stand in line every weekend!

I don't think you can honestly say that everything the BORGs carry sucks. They have plenty of junk, but they have plenty of good stuff too. Same with all size of retailer, that's called carrying a wide range of products. I always laugh at the BORG bashing threads. Funny to see so many people look down their noses at two places that are extremely successful businesses. Come on people, just because you're a woodworker or contractor that works on high end homes/projects doesn't make you so high and mighty that you should talk down on large retailers. If you don't like it, just go somewhere else. No need to talk down about the place because they don't carry everything you consider to be up to your mighty standards.

If the situation were that they just popped up and didn't close real hardware stores (another one 80 years running or so just closed here on the south side of pittsburgh, a true full service hardware store), then there'd be no opinion from me. However, that they pop up, and then the product in them slowly turns to junk after the competition disappears is a *real* problem.

You don't have to have "mighty standards" to be disappointed in their quality and offerings. Merely hoping for functional tools and materials is enough to make you disappointed.

[David Thompson 27577]

............... I wondered what the BORGS still sell that is still high quality stuff I'd be proud to buy and use............. Feel free to add to the list..................



IMO, Ridgid power tools (at HD), and pneumatic tools, are pro-quality.

I'm not sure, but I suspect that Bosch has refused to create store-specific models of any of their power tools, possibly Dewalt too. But I'm thinking that this is not true with Hitachi and Milwaukee.

A few years ago, I bought a Milwaukee Sawzall at Lowes. At first glance, it appeared to have the same model number as the one at a pro-supply house -- only thing different was some letter appended to the end of the model number. Oh, and the price was lower by $20 or 30.

That saw quit working in the middle of the third remodel I used it on. The motor was running, but no blade movement.

Took it apart to find that the gearbox was almost all plastic.

Which is not true of the Milwaukee Sawzalls that don't have that letter appended to the model number.

[Jason Roehl]

David, was that letter by any chance a 'K'?

If so, it means "kit"--it comes with a case, that's it. It will show up on the box it comes in, but not on the Sawzall itself.

Going from plastic to metal gears probably raises the price more than $20-30. It's the difference between cordless drills that cost under $100 and those that approach $200.

[David Weaver]

Which is not true of the Milwaukee Sawzalls that don't have that letter appended to the model number.

Where was it made? I noticed a few years ago that while milwaukee was one of the last holdouts to change their line of tools, a lot of them are made in china now.

I think they probably can't ignore HD's demands for lower tool prices (or at least prices that don't increase with the cost of manufacturing in the US) forever. They (HD) probably figure that most people who buy tools from the middle of their store are using them lightly or not at all, anyway, and that pros will go to the tool rental / pro tool area and buy hilti tools.

[jmike montgomery]

Personally, I'm just happy to see that we're getting a Menards in Wichita. When we used to live in Illinois, I really came to like their assortment of lumber and hardware. On the tool front, they weren't that great for good things, but their plywood and hardwood was fine for cabinet work. Hopefully they haven't gone downhill since then. It will be interesting to see how Home Depot is affected, one of the new stores is a few miles from the new Menards; on the other side of time, they're just down the street from a nearly new Lowes. Fun times ahead.

[Russell Smallwood]

IMO, Ridgid power tools (at HD), and pneumatic tools, are pro-quality.

Unfortunately, this has not been my experience. I've purchased two Rigid tools, a framing nailer and a compressor. Both have been returned. The nailer was very prone to jamming, and the compressor wouldn't start after about the 5th time I used it.

Returned the nailer for a Hitachi (pro version) and absolutely love it. Returned the compressor for a Dewalt and have had no problems with it to date.

Probably not going to buy another Rigid tool.

Probably just bad luck on my part. I'm not saying that Rigid is bad, just that my personal experience has been negative.

Edit: Forgot about the MSUV I bought. Very disappointed in that as well. The support leg has already fallen out and the height adjustment continually gets jammed. In general, the stand just seems flimsy.

[steven c newman]

out there... Menards. Their plywood is about the best around. Tools...welll..

I live 15 miles from a Lowes, Menards, ACE hardware, DIY Store, and an HD is about 28 miles. I wind up going PAST lowes and pull into Menards parking lot everytime. So far in this thread, I haven't seen a "bashing" of Menards. Hmmm.:confused:

[John Coloccia]

Home depot carries good clamps. They have a fine selection of hammers. Their plywood IS pretty awful most of the time, but the MDF is fine and so is their basic construction material other than their dimensional lumber which is usually TERRIBLE for whatever reason. Lowes carries a fine selection of oddball hardware though so do my local hardware stores. HD has a great selection of dowels.

A lot of Lowe's Kobalt tools are not bad at all. The Rigid line that HD carries is generally nice too. I forget which one but one of them carries Hilti.

HD and Lowes both have some nice compressors, and as someone else said they carry some nice pneumatic tools too. They also carry some nice routers.

I could go on. The bottom line is that I can make a similar list for almost ANY supplier out there. I can make a list of things Grizzly makes poorly and very well. Lee Valley carries some low end items in addition to their higher end offerings. Even Lie-Neilsen carries some junk, i.e. I just looked and they're still carrying Nicholson's #s 49 and 50 rasps. These Brazilian monstrosities are nothing like the old 49 and 50 many of you are familiar with.

Fortunately you can always come to SMC and select the items that us curmudgeons complain about the least. LOL. :)

[Steven Hsieh]

ON the Purdy brushes.....

I bought one from a paint store, and when it was getting worn out I bought what looked like the same one from Lowes as it was close to the job. Turns out it was not the same. It had different colored bristles and would not cut into the small details I needed it for as well, so they may not be the same.




Yes, they are De-spec'd.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Do you mean to leave out their great plywood?:rolleyes:
That is pro quality stuff, right?

I got several pcs. of Lowes "hardwood" plywood a week or so ago. $45.00 per sheet, for some shelves I'm building. I don't know what is in the plywood, but I've never created so much and such fine sawdust as I did breaking down those sheets. The sheets were stamped "made in China" and I wore a respirator, but with the quantity of saw dust, I'll never buy that plywood again. Incidentally, the dust was created equally by my circular saw, my table saw and my router - made no difference how coarse or fine the blade was.

[David Thompson 27577]

Jason -- you asked.......


David, was that letter by any chance a 'K'?

If so, it means "kit"--it comes with a case, that's it.......................



My Milwaukee Sawzall did not come with a case, or a kit. It may have included a blade, but it certainly was not a "kit".

I tend to agree that metal gears versus plastic should make a greater price difference than 20 or 30 dollars. But it did not in this case.

Which means, best I can tell, that Lowes and Milwaukee were not only selling me an inferior product, they were also charging quite a bit too much.

Oh, forgot to mention......... that was the last power tool I bought at Lowes. The stuff they sell is probably great for home-owner type DIY stuff. I'm in the woodworking and home improvement business. I can't afford the time it takes when a tool fails.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I played this game (what fun!) -- making my list of decent stuff that I have picked up at the BORGs. Its definitely true that I find myself mostly turning to Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, Tools For Working Wood, and occasionally woodcraft. But, between HD and Lowes I have bought way more stuff than I would have initially thought:

SPAX Screws
Bosch 1617 EVSK Router (plunge and fixed bases)
Bosch Colt router
Dewalt 735 planer (got it for $127 when HD discoed it!)
Lufkin folding rule
Danish Oil (many many quarts of for $.37)
Titebond original wood glue
BLO, Denatured Alcohol, Mineral Spirits, turpentine
Norton Sandpapers (for hand-sanding)
3M nylon pads (replaced #0000 steel wool)
Jorgensen clamps
T-8 Shop lighting fixtures and bulbs
Dewalt tapered counter sink bits
Safety glasses, respirator and ear-muffs
suede gloves for handling rough sawn boards at the local sawyer

[Zach England]

Professional contractors have very different needs from professional furniture/boat/cabinet/whatever builders.

Don't get me wrong...I embrace elitism in all its forms.

[Kevin Womer]

I was very happy with the free paint stir stick I got at Home Depot the other day.


If I remember to ask for one, if not I usually just come home with the paint.

[Kevin Womer]

Home depot carries good clamps. They have a fine selection of hammers. Their plywood IS pretty awful most of the time, but the MDF is fine and so is their basic construction material other than their dimensional lumber which is usually TERRIBLE for whatever reason. Lowes carries a fine selection of oddball hardware though so do my local hardware stores. HD has a great selection of dowels.

A lot of Lowe's Kobalt tools are not bad at all. The Rigid line that HD carries is generally nice too. I forget which one but one of them carries Hilti.

HD and Lowes both have some nice compressors, and as someone else said they carry some nice pneumatic tools too. They also carry some nice routers.

I could go on. The bottom line is that I can make a similar list for almost ANY supplier out there. I can make a list of things Grizzly makes poorly and very well. Lee Valley carries some low end items in addition to their higher end offerings. Even Lie-Neilsen carries some junk, i.e. I just looked and they're still carrying Nicholson's #s 49 and 50 rasps. These Brazilian monstrosities are nothing like the old 49 and 50 many of you are familiar with.

Fortunately you can always come to SMC and select the items that us curmudgeons complain about the least. LOL. :)

I read in FWW a while back that those green 2" spring clamps were rated as good as about any other ones out there, I picked up a half a dozen the other day for $0.99 a piece, those are nice and I do really like my OSS that Rigid makes as well.

[John Coloccia]

I read in FWW a while back that those green 2" spring clamps were rated as good as about any other ones out there, I picked up a half a dozen the other day for $0.99 a piece, those are nice and I do really like my OSS that Rigid makes as well.

Harbor Freight carries some fantastic, CHEAP, spring clamps (like Pony clamps). I must have 50 of them kicking around, if not more. When they go on sale, I usually clean them out.

[David Prince]

I can think of good and bad from BORGS and local hardware and lumber yards.

There are some things I will usually buy from a BORG like insulation. Does my local lumberyard get a better quality of the same brand name? Doubt it, but the price is 30% higher.

The poor contractor that uses Ryobi might not know any better... but I do have a Ryobi dremel type tool that has always performed as expected and I have had it and used it for several years. I also have some Harbor Freight stuff. I also have Festool, Milwaukee, Dewalt, PC and B & D. It doesn't make sense to buy top of the line for something that doesn't get used that often whether you are professional or novice. I will pay accordingly to how much I will use it and to what degree of quality I am expecting.

To me the BORG and the local guy both has their place.

[Dan Karachio]

Actually, it does make them professional.

According to my American Heritage Dictionary
Professional: 1. Of or engaged in a profession 2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood

The definition of professional does not say anything about quality.

So really the fallacy is that professional means a certain level of quality.

Their definition of profession: an occupation requiring training and specialized study.

John
(waiting to give a professional grade thermodynamics exam ;) )

Actually, we were taught in grad school that the original meaning of "a professional" was one engaged in some work that benefited society. Therefore, a physician or teacher would be considered a professional under this definition. Obviously, now that hedge fund managers can be thought of as professionals, this definition has changed and is often used to identify one that makes good money and/or one that has knowledge and/or one that does high quality work, whoever it may benefit.

I better get on topic. I agree with the poster above about some of the clamps, Kreg stuff.... That's really about it except for some smaller power tools, ladders and other things, but it is not the same type of store as a Woodcraft, that's for sure.

[johnny means]

Any professional cabinet/furniture maker worth his or her salt should be able to build high quality products using only tools and materials found in the Borgs. Just like any hack can build junk with the finest machines and material available. These home improvement retailers are what they are and provide what the vast majority of us need at a price we can deal with. We don't bash Ford dealers for not selling Ferraris.

[Brandon Weiss]

Any professional cabinet/furniture maker worth his or her salt should be able to build high quality products using only tools and materials found in the Borgs. Just like any hack can build junk with the finest machines and material available. These home improvement retailers are what they are and provide what the vast majority of us need at a price we can deal with. We don't bash Ford dealers for not selling Ferraris.

I don't say this often, but amen brother. Well said.

[Mike OMelia]

If you don't like Lowes and HD, don't go there. As far back as I can recall, they have always been bad in some areas and good in others. They are not there for fine woodworking. Too small a market (compared to their business model). However, like Fresh Market is to Winn-Dixie, it would be nice if one of the big box stores decided to fill that niche.

Mike

[Steven Hsieh]

There are some things I will usually buy from a BORG like insulation. Does my local lumberyard get a better quality of the same brand name? Doubt it, but the price is 30% higher.




It's CPV

Lets say Porter-Cable has a framing saw, you see it in your local tool (http://www.diychatroom.com/#) shop for...say $189
It's quiet, light, strong, and has a great blade
You shop around a bit and see it in HD for less
It's only $159...what a bargain (http://www.diychatroom.com/#)!

Hold on there partner, here's what happened
HD brass saw the P/C saw and said great, we want to carry that, but we want to charge less than $189
P/C says we can't lower our price to you, it's a great price

Now comes the CPV
Customer Perceived Value

Big Box says well, our average customer won't see the value (extra $) of that magnesium guide...can you make it steel?
Our avg. cust won't perceive the value of those fancy motor bushings, or that fancy blade
Make your saw for us to these new specs and we'll carry your saw
And we'll sell it for $159

If P/C says no, then Big Box won't carry a P/C framing saw

Voila, Home Despot has a de-spec'd P/C saw that looks like the one at the local tool shop

[David Prince]

It's CPV

Lets say Porter-Cable has a framing saw, you see it in your local tool (http://www.diychatroom.com/#) shop for...say $189
It's quiet, light, strong, and has a great blade
You shop around a bit and see it in HD for less
It's only $159...what a bargain (http://www.diychatroom.com/#)!

Hold on there partner, here's what happened
HD brass saw the P/C saw and said great, we want to carry that, but we want to charge less than $189
P/C says we can't lower our price to you, it's a great price

Now comes the CPV
Customer Perceived Value

Big Box says well, our average customer won't see the value (extra $) of that magnesium guide...can you make it steel?
Our avg. cust won't perceive the value of those fancy motor bushings, or that fancy blade
Make your saw for us to these new specs and we'll carry your saw
And we'll sell it for $159

If P/C says no, then Big Box won't carry a P/C framing saw

Voila, Home Despot has a de-spec'd P/C saw that looks like the one at the local tool shop

I would agree that this does happen, but if you compare UPC numbers and model numbers you will see that often times they are the VERY SAME product. The BORG is able to negotiate a better price because they are able to purchase in large quantities. Some can even pay cash for truck loads of the stuff. That will move a manufacturer's price point!

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Any professional cabinet/furniture maker worth his or her salt should be able to build high quality products using only tools and materials found in the Borgs. Just like any hack can build junk with the finest machines and material available. These home improvement retailers are what they are and provide what the vast majority of us need at a price we can deal with. We don't bash Ford dealers for not selling Ferraris.

Well said, tools does not make the man. That said, I can't even properly use a Stanley plane, why would I buy a L-N? Because I can say, I have one. No, I actually don't, but I wish I could say that. Then I could build junk furniture witha real good plane.

[Stephen Cherry]

4. Lowes-Bessey Clamps HD-Jorgensen clamps



Beat me to this one.

Also, the Home Depot I go to used to have a pretty good hot dog wagon out front. Now I need to go the the landfill to get my hot dogs.

[Peter Quinn]

Soooo, I bought a box of 6D plastic collated 21 degree ring shank hot dipped galvanized framing nails yesterday night at the local orange borg. By the time I got the kids fed and to bed every thing else was closed and I knew there was no time this morning before getting to the job site to go to a real lumber yard. Bought the grip tite brand, box of 1000, I knew I was close at the bottom of a large box of senco's and didn't want to run short at the end of sheathing a roof.

So we're having a little cold snap here in New England, at least cold for us for this time of year, maybe low 20's with a stiff breeze? The nails spend the night in the van. I hand the guy I'm working with the nailer with the new 6D borg nails (I'm saving the 8D senco's I have left for some 5/8" sheathing to be installed elsewhere on the building) so he can have at the roof. Two minutes later he climbs off the roof saying "I'm having a bit of trouble with these nails, they keep misfiring and the sticks are breaking up!"

Well, they are the right ammo for the gun, but the collations are made with some cheepo brittle plastic, and when you fire the first nail it shatters the rest of the stick, they go askew, and they start firing out the side of the tip! Real fun to be standing on a roof in a 20 MPH breeze below freezing clearing nail jambs every other shot! Junk. Junk. Junk!!!!!!! That box of senco's was 5 years old and still working great till the last nail. Its been through so many freeze thaw cycles in the truck I can't remember, never a misfire.

So I return said junk nails, and CS rep says "Maybe you got an old box or something?" These are not doughnuts sweety, they are framing nails, and yours are junk!

Moral? Don't put the stick nails at the borg on the list of "Professional quality" items for sale. Do count me as irritated, again, with the borg. I should note that I have bought countless boxes of brad and finish nails from the borg in the PC brand without any problems.

[Russell Smallwood]

Any professional cabinet/furniture maker worth his or her salt should be able to build high quality products using only tools and materials found in the Borgs. Just like any hack can build junk with the finest machines and material available. These home improvement retailers are what they are and provide what the vast majority of us need at a price we can deal with. We don't bash Ford dealers for not selling Ferraris.

Somehow I just can't picture Tage Frid walking through the Home Depot hand tools section and saying "Yes, this will do just fine".

[Chris Mahmood]

Somehow I just can't picture Tage Frid walking through the Home Depot hand tools section and saying "Yes, this will do just fine".

I don't know, have you ever seen that video where he's about to cut a set of blind dovetails, pauses, and then flips a belt sander over in order to give the chisel a quick sharpening? Of course the dovetails come out perfect....he probably could have cut them with a $2 screwdriver that he sharpened on the concrete floor.

[Russell Smallwood]

I don't know, have you ever seen that video where he's about to cut a set of blind dovetails, pauses, and then flips a belt sander over in order to give the chisel a quick sharpening? Of course the dovetails come out perfect....he probably could have cut them with a $2 screwdriver that he sharpened on the concrete floor.

Ok, but I bet that wasn't a buck brothers chisel.

[Barry Nelson]

We are, over here in Australia, about to be invaded by an amalgamation of Home Depot and Woolworths one of the major retailers over here.Dont know when the first store opens as yet,but will be interesting to see if they carry Home Depot stuff. Ryobi.Mliwaukee,Aeg are well represented out here by Techtronic Industries who took over these brands some years ago.We live in interesting times, major competition will come from Bunnings long estblished hardware chain who have taken over a number of other retailers ie Kmart ,Target,GJ Colesetc

[Philip Johnson]

I try to avoid HD at all costs. Years ago I bought a M&K tile saw from a tool store, HD had what appeared to be the same saw with a slightly different model number. Made me wonder what they did to it, by the way it was the same price and that HD model was not available anywhere else, in fact it did not show on the manufactures web site as one of their models.

I found a Mohawk carpet I like at HD so I took the sample to my local flooring place that was doing all the carpet in my new house and asked if he could get this carpet. He said sure I carry Mohawk should not be a problem. Turns out that carpet was made for HD only and once the installer found out what it was made out of said he would not install that carpet in a house he was selling. It would wear and look bad in a few months

Delta faucets another thing that HD had made for them only, plastic internal parts, go to a plumbing supply and the faucet has brass parts. The plastic one may make it a year before it starts leaking and dripping.

A dewalt drill from a big box lasted 3 days and the plastic gears stripped out, took that back went to the tool store and asked for a drill with no plastic gears, got a milwaukee, that was 20 years ago and still have the milwaukee.

So every time I see a Rigid tool I wonder what HD did to make that tool as cheaply as possible. They are trying to save a nickel not build a quality tool. There will be no rigid tools in my garage.

When I need a tool I will drive the extra 35 miles to the real tool store. Professional is just a label that Sears and HD attach to all their tools, it means nothing. If you need to be told its a professional quality tool it is probably not.

Phil

[David Weaver]

Well said, tools does not make the man. That said, I can't even properly use a Stanley plane, why would I buy a L-N? Because I can say, I have one. No, I actually don't, but I wish I could say that. Then I could build junk furniture witha real good plane.

Are we talking about hand planes? Let's not even go there with what the borg sells.

Vintage stanley planes are perfectly functional tools, the quality of which is not to be found at the BORG.

If you want to compare the Borg, you would have to say would I pay extra to get a real plane instead of the "buck brothers" plane at the Borg?

In order to make the stanley vs. LN argument, you have to assume that the BORG even sells stanley quality stuff, and they don't. You've created a false dilemma.

[David Weaver]

Any professional cabinet/furniture maker worth his or her salt should be able to build high quality products using only tools and materials found in the Borgs. Just like any hack can build junk with the finest machines and material available. These home improvement retailers are what they are and provide what the vast majority of us need at a price we can deal with. We don't bash Ford dealers for not selling Ferraris.

What would you do if your ford dealer put a badge on a trabi and called it a ford? That would be a lot more accurate in talking about what you get at home depot. It's a matter of basic functionality.

Ford vs. Ferrari isn't a proper comparison, nobody is shopping for ferarri, they're shopping for ford level and being sold a trabi.

As far as materials go, you're making "high quality" products with bowing birch ply and s4s red oak? Barf.

[David Weaver]

Denatured Alcohol

See the discussion in HT about the DNA at the Borg - it's 40-50% methanol. Not good! I used a lot of the same stuff (in a closed shop in winter), I don't know why I assumed that it was mostly ethanol, that was a bad assumption.

I have bought a lot of similar branded stuff there like you mentioned, though, and do have a couple of ridgid tools, and they are fine.

[Bill Blackburn]

Any professional cabinet/furniture maker worth his or her salt should be able to build high quality products using only tools and materials found in the Borgs. Just like any hack can build junk with the finest machines and material available. These home improvement retailers are what they are and provide what the vast majority of us need at a price we can deal with. We don't bash Ford dealers for not selling Ferraris.

Indeed --- well said:)

[Eric Getchell]

I've seen numerous people note cheaper lines for a given tool for HD/Lowes. Short of purchasing and disassembling the tool from the big box store and local hardware store, how do you guys know if there are multiple versions for a given model?

And what about on-line retailers, like Amazon? Are they also guilty of this practice?

For example, at some point I need a portable planer (I have a small shop, so don't have the room for a floor model), and FWW gave good marks to the Dewalt 735. Both the big box stores and the Woodcrafts and Rocklers carry it. Is it the same model, or is there something justifying the $70 price difference over raw purchasing power?

[Steve Schoene]

The Milwaukee brand is owned by a Chinese company, not just outsourced by an American company. Ridgid woodworking tools are produced by the same company and are essentially a house brand for HD.

Kohler isn't the same--inside--from the big boxes as from the plumbing supply houses. Moen either.

[David Weaver]

I've seen numerous people note cheaper lines for a given tool for HD/Lowes. Short of purchasing and disassembling the tool from the big box store and local hardware store, how do you guys know if there are multiple versions for a given model?

And what about on-line retailers, like Amazon? Are they also guilty of this practice?

For example, at some point I need a portable planer (I have a small shop, so don't have the room for a floor model), and FWW gave good marks to the Dewalt 735. Both the big box stores and the Woodcrafts and Rocklers carry it. Is it the same model, or is there something justifying the $70 price difference over raw purchasing power?

I think the 735 is a different issue. I think rockler and woodcraft like a bigger margin for power tools than do large retailers.

I can't believe that the planers would be different, it's not much of a consumer DIY purchase like the drills, etc are.

I guess you never know who gets a modifed model without having the manufacturer tell you or without buying them and taking them apart yourself.

Some things are immediately apparent, though, like some of the kioritz (echo) brand trimmers. At a professional supply lawn shop, they are US made. At HD, they are made in china. they look exactly the same, why the difference in origin? the guy at the lawn shop where I get my mowing and trimming stuff didn't believe kioritz made anything in china because the rep never made a peep to him about it, but it's clear as day written on some of the ones sold at HD. Sooner or later, all of the ones at HD will probably be china origin, and some of the china origin machines will make their way into the lower priced models at lawn supply shops, they just hadn't yet when I was buying.

[David Weaver]

The Milwaukee brand is owned by a Chinese company

that explains why they are getting worse.

I made the mistake of passing over the classic holeshooter for mail ordering the new 8 amp drill that milwaukee made to replace it. It has a jacobs chuck, that's about all I can say for it. otherwise, the speed control doesn't feather slowly to a stop like the holeshooter, and the front handle is a junky hose clamp secured kind of thing instead of a threaded handle attached directly to the drill body.

Last I looked, the same drill is now made in china instead of the US. At least I bought early enough to avoid that. Price is the same for the chinese made one as the US made one, though!:rolleyes:

[Stephen Tashiro]

I've never found a use for those Spax screws. In masonry, they act more like a drill bit than a screw.

[Cary Falk]

I am reading a lot of comments to the affect of " They LOOK the same so they are except the BORG version has cheaper parts in them" I will bet if you checked model numbers, they are different even though the item looks similar. It would be a logistical nightmare to have 2 separate manufacturing lines building 2 items with the same model number but one line having inferior parts. How do you keep them straight when you crank out hundreds of parts a day.

[Mark Bolton]

For me the point is being completely missed in this thread at least in the way I have viewed big box retailers for the past 15 years or more.

The simple fact of the matter is the main issue is not about the product alone. For me that has never been my sole gripe with big box retailers though its what most directly affects you. It is irrelevant whether they have quality products or not (which they absolutely don't unless it just happens to be the only item available - Kreg Jigs, Klien Tools, for example) its about what they're business philosophy is doing to the tool market, the appliance market, the manufacturing industry, lumber market, etc., pertaining to most everything they sell. The fact of the matter is virtually nothing good has come out of big box retailers other than the immediate heroin fix of cheap goods to the selfish, short sighted U.S. consumer, and the ultimate goal, an unwaivering focus on corporate profits _at_any_cost. Profit is what we are all in business for, its the "at_any_cost" part that is the problem.

All the while the two have been "dealing up" and "shooting up" with this dirty heroin, our manufacturing has left us, quality has been on a steady decline, and our choices are actually more an more limited as opposed to more varied which was what these places touted for years, choices, choices, choices. Now that the hook is set, the only "choices" you have, are the ones they choose to offer you.

Manufacturers have come to the correct realization that they simply can not manufacture double lines of products, one line of dumbed down cheap junk for the big boxes and one line of higher quality for the more discerning consumer. The big boxes don't want you to have options they want you to buy their products wherever possible. Virtually across the board manufacturers have moved to reduce quality to meet the price points which overwhelms that of quality. This has always been the case but you at least had the option to get the quality item.

It extends right down to nails. I have said this for 15 years now, compare a nail from the home center to one of 10-15 years ago. The same nail which is labeled 16D will be a little thinner gauge, head slightly smaller and thinner, fewer grippers under the head, on and on. Our main lumberyard use to have one of their nails and a Home Depot nail behind the service counter. When a customer would bicker about price they would pull out the two nails and say "If this is what they are willing to do to a NAIL, a NAIL of all things, what are they willing to do to everything else?" We can now see what they have been willing to do to everything else. Light fixtures that rust and pit in a year, plumbing fixtures that do the same, $85/lf Hickory kitchen cabinets, reduce all you can in a product right down to the thickness of the paint to increase profit over delivered quality. No one is asking for MORE quality for less money, but all the while corporate profits soar, executive compensation soars, shareholder profits soar, and quality goes down, down, down. There is a trade being made, your quality for their profits. And now you've screwed yourself because the option of dumping them becomes more and more difficult every year as alternatives vaporize.

Now to the people who say if you dont like it go somewhere else, well in many markets (ours for one) there is no where else because the demand for the cheap nails became so large due to a few cents savings, that now the distributor that supplies the BORG supplies everyone. I cant even buy the better nail locally anymore. The low quality has taken over the entire market and there are NO choices unless you are willing and able to ship product in common carrier, buy in bulk, and so on.

I dont personally care so much about the nail, what I care about is that these places have brilliantly marketed the consumer into thinking that they actually DO deliver quality and what they provide is quality, its not, its not even acceptable quality in many cases. The average drone who walks in the door at this point knows no better. The BORG's have operated for longer than the U.S. consumers fruit fly attention span and now they just walk in with "X"'s over their eyes and their wallets out at arms length. I mean for goodness sake, Wal-Mart was caught red handed how many years ago touting "USA USA" while they were sewing USA labels in garments made overseas. Caught, red handed, and the US consumer, high as a kite on cheap goods, says "Oh, yeah, well, uh,.. psst.... can you cook me up another batch".

For the few things where you still can go somewhere else you cant escape what they have done to the marketplace and the industry. Kohler was mentioned here, Kohler has diminished its quality in the past 10 years due to these places and these places alone. A name that was touted as one of the most prestigious fixture you can have in your home, reserved mainly for the high end for years and years, is now selling faucets with plastic popup assemblies and plastic internal components at the home centers simply to meet a price point. They are selling china with unglazed trapways to meet a price point. They have driven down the Sterling line since acquiring them to meet a price point. All for the home centers bottom line. At the supply house I can still buy the Kohler of old, solid brass, box weighs three times that of the home center for the same faucet, but for how long. It will likely only be a matter of time before they realize they cant run a dual line as well.

The short sightedness is not surprising these days. No one seems to care that they swap out light fixtures every few years. Change faucets when they start to drip. A dishwasher may last 2 years now. Its just common place. I think I rebuilt our kitchen faucet (delta) perhaps 10 times through my youth, teens, and twenties for my mother. I don't think I can ever recall a rusty light fixture at our house inside or out. Now its commonplace.

Mark

[Ole Anderson]

Mark, you hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Everything is made in China and down to a price, because as you said, the American consumer, by and large, shops price. And shall I be so bold as to say, that most (read that as more than 50%) Creekers do also? Sure once in a while we won't comprimise on a tool, but generally if we can get a tool or a piece of wood that will work almost as well at the Grade AAA version, we go for it. You can tell by the posts that there are a few Creekers to whom price is not a concern because they have deep wallets, to the rest of us, a buck is, what 50 cents now?

[Russell Smallwood]

Well said Mark.

I've always thought that one of the positives to come out of the super-saver big box stores / home centers / discount clubs is that they've taught us about junk.

"Wow, this is junk." "Wow, now I have a house full of junk." "How can I get rid of this junk." "Why doesn't this junk work?" And most importantly, "I can't believe I was so desperate to buy this junk in the first place."

Before you club me, let me qualify this by saying that not everything you buy at the Mega Mart Depot has no value. I continue to shop at many of them and they fill a need, however, the proliferation of once quality products into the mainstream marketplace has done nothing but confirm many of the fundamental laws of economics in regards to the rules of cost vs. quality.

It seems that where the battle used to be fought on the grounds of building better tools, we are now witnessing what happens when the battleground shifts to building better customer perceived value.

Luckily, the world of eCommerce is opening up the doors to a host of online, boutique-style suppliers that can make a profit selling higher quality products (e.g. Highland) to knowing consumers without the costs of having to put up a building and advertise on local television.

There are also companies popping up that are positioning themselves as high-quality tool manufacturers who sell to that same knowledgeable consumer (e.g. Festool) and make no apologies about the high price tags.

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out in the years to come.

[John Coloccia]

re: it was better back then and now it's different and worse

By a show of hands, how many of us inherited a shop full of tools, of any quality, from our parents? I sure didn't. We had a drill growing up. Maybe a handsaw. Certainly nothing I could build anything with. I could put up a shelf, perhaps, or hang a picture.

How many of your children will inherit a shop full of BORG, and other import, tools that while not high quality, will be adequate to build some furniture, maybe turn some pens, and other kinds of things? I'll bet it's a lot more of you. Growing up, I only knew one person that owned a table saw, and NO ONE that owned a bandsaw or a lathe...not even a small one. Everyone used to make fun of Norm Abrams because he had a shop full of specialized tools. Really? Watch NYW. He had a dinky little jointer, a lunchbox planer, a mortising attachment for an old drill press, a table saw, a radial arm saw and a router. Oh, and a biscuit joiner. We consider this basic nowadays. Back then it seemed like he was Mr. SuperPro Holy Cow Look At All Those Tools!

Things haven't gotten worse. We have access, in my opinion, to some of the best tools that have ever been made. You have to pay for them, just as generations past had to pay for them, and they're by and large unaffordable to the serious hobbyist, and even to some pros, just as they were 50 years ago and 100 years ago. What's changed is accessibility to lower quality but affordable tools.

How many of you would be able to afford woodworking if all you had available was Festool, Felder, Sawstop, Minimax and Lie-Nielsen?

This is just my opinion.

[Todd Crawford]

How many of you would be able to afford woodworking if all you had available was Festool, Felder, Sawstop, Minimax and Lie-Nielsen?


Good post and to answer your question - certainly not me. Good thing I didn't know I need all of that stuff when I first started out. In fact I built a my first set of kitchen cabinets a couple of years ago using a borrowed bench top table saw, skil saw with a straight edge, and a table top router table. Glue up was done on a sheet of OSB laid across a few saw horses. Only thing "special" I bought was a 35mm forestner bit, a portable air compressor and a Craftsman finish nailer, and a PC 557 biscuit jointer. That $200 biscuit jointer was worth more than all the other tool I had. If all that was available was "pro grade" tools at the "pro grade price" I'd still have nothing.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=98048

[Rod Sheridan]

I also think that we've forgotten what cheap means.

It means inferior, and my parents who had less disposable income than I do, wouldn't buy cheap products, they couldn't afford to.

They bought once or perhaps twice in their lifetime.

A set of bedroom furniture was a substantial purchase, they probably saved money for 2 years to buy one set of furniture that they would keep for their lifetime.

My Mom died last month at 83 years of age, the furniture in the master bedroom had been purchased in 1946, due to a shortage of goods for the first 2 years of their marriage.

Think about that, my parents had the same bedroom furniture for 64 years. The walnut burl veneer and solids are beautiful, the finish still flawless after all those decades.

A true return on investment.

The same for the kettle, a GE chrome one from the forties, big bucks at the time. Many hours or perhaps days of wages required to purchase, and it lasted until a few years ago.

Today you find the made in China cheap kettle for 10 to 20 dollars. Only part of an hourly wage, yet in a few years it's clogging our landfills.

It's not however the big box stores that are to blame, it's us.

Want a good North American wood working machine? You can still buy them, General is still a business located in Quebec.

Want a good Euro machine? Felder, Hammer, MiniMax are available, excellent machinery, step right up and buy one.

I didn't receive any wood working machinery from my Dad because he wasn't a woodworker, he was an electrician. He did however leave me a pile of Klein, Rigid, Starret etc hand tools because he couldn't afford to buy cheap.

Same with Diann's Dad, a traditional English cabinet maker with a true apprenticeship and paperwork to follow his career. He has a boatload of high quality English planes, chisels, layout tools, etc. No cheap stuff, he couldn't afford that either.

We can afford cheap because we have lots of money and can afford to buy cheap once, and again, and again, or we buy quality once, however don't blame the vendor, blame the purchaser.

regards, Rod.

[Russell Smallwood]

re: it was better back then and now it's different and worse

By a show of hands, how many of us inherited a shop full of tools, of any quality, from our parents? I sure didn't. We had a drill growing up. Maybe a handsaw. Certainly nothing I could build anything with. I could put up a shelf, perhaps, or hang a picture.

How many of your children will inherit a shop full of BORG, and other import, tools that while not high quality, will be adequate to build some furniture, maybe turn some pens, and other kinds of things? I'll bet it's a lot more of you. Growing up, I only knew one person that owned a table saw, and NO ONE that owned a bandsaw or a lathe...not even a small one. Everyone used to make fun of Norm Abrams because he had a shop full of specialized tools. Really? Watch NYW. He had a dinky little jointer, a lunchbox planer, a mortising attachment for an old drill press, a table saw, a radial arm saw and a router. Oh, and a biscuit joiner. We consider this basic nowadays. Back then it seemed like he was Mr. SuperPro Holy Cow Look At All Those Tools!

Things haven't gotten worse. We have access, in my opinion, to some of the best tools that have ever been made. You have to pay for them, just as generations past had to pay for them, and they're by and large unaffordable to the serious hobbyist, and even to some pros, just as they were 50 years ago and 100 years ago. What's changed is accessibility to lower quality but affordable tools.

How many of you would be able to afford woodworking if all you had available was Festool, Felder, Sawstop, Minimax and Lie-Nielsen?

This is just my opinion.

I don't know, Sears, Black and Decker, Skil, some variation on Chicago Tool, are all brands that have been around and been cheap for a long time. In fact, when I first started ww'ing, I had an antique sears table saw, a B&D router, Skil circular saw, some kind of Jigsaw (don't remember) and a handful of other low end tools. I bought them and knew I was buying low end tools.

When I bought my first Delta tool (contractor saw) I immediately knew the difference. Yes it was more expensive (not by a lot) but it was a Delta!

Today, those lines have gotten a lot more blurry. I can't walk into a big box retailer and buy a Porter Cable tool and be sure that it is a cut above the Black and Decker sitting next to it (same company now anyway). This, is the crux of the matter in my opinion. There's just no way to tell, short of taking something apart, what you're buying anymore.

[John Sanford]

I think there's one consideration that's being overlooked here, and it's the effect of entropy. Not, mind you, the fuzziness of our memories, but rather, the brutal impact of the passage of time on "product."

Too often, when comparing the product of 30, 50, or even a hundred years ago or more to the product available today, we are comparing apples to oranges.

Back in the day, the various and numerous American tool manufacturers made a wide variety of tools, from top grade stuff to crap. As generally happens in the course of time, the crap got destroyed, got lost, wore out quickly, or was just tossed. A far, far larger proportion of top grade stuff survived than was produced. So today, we compare the top grade stuff of yore to the common stuff and crap stuff of today, rather than comparing the crap of yore to the crap of today, and the top stuff of yore to the top stuff of today.

This isn't to say that the Borg doesn't sell crap, they do. They also sell some good stuff. Sometimes, they replace good stuff with crap, sometimes they replace crap with good stuff.

I suggest that each of us does our best to be informed, and to inform others as to crap/not crap/good stuff at the Borg (and other places), without insulting American consumers, businesses, etc.

[Mark Bolton]

re: it was better back then and now it's different and worse


I couldnt agree more. The innovation and quality of even cheap tools has of course gone up and its a given the quality of cheap tools is likely better than what most had 40 years ago. Personally I did inherit some nice tools right down to some nice old Stanley bevel gauges that I use to this day. I carry one of my fathers bevel gauges in my apron almost every day. I still have some of the old solid chrome drills and 1/3 sheet sanders that my father and grandfather left/gave to me. Jointer, hand planes, chisels, draw knives, framing chisels and slick's,... Some are junk and just sentimental but many arent.

That said, the way we approach quality of product, tools, efficiency, whatever in the US is not necessarily the best or only way. We all know there are other countries that value quality and specifically tool quality far differently, and I would say better.

Its obvious that even a POS ryobi or firestorm drill would be the berries if you went back and handed it to my grandfather when he was hacking away at wood in the 40's and 50's. Does that make it the bomb? Does that make it good? What about the total package? How it was manufactured, where, what are the long term consequences of its production? These are the things it doesnt seem we often think about.

Back then the president of your company made a reasonable amount more than his highest paid subordinate, you had pension, retirement, companies operated with a bit of a conscience for their local community and their workers. Of course you can go back to the industrial revolution and look at times when compaines ground up their workers and scattered them on the earth like lime but I am talking about forward progression here.

It sure seems to me, and I am no old foggie only 44, that we are moving in reverse with regards to quality and corporate self responsibility especially pertaining to this the original topic.

Its likely an agree to disagree situation for many but I see the times we are in now as a bit of a regression back to the industrial revolution where its greed, make more money for me, reduce anything to increase profit, and so on, with little regard for what you may reap in the next 5-10-20 years from what you are sewing today.

Mark

[Ray Newman]

John Coloccia: BINGO!

[Steven Hsieh]

I've seen numerous people note cheaper lines for a given tool for HD/Lowes. Short of purchasing and disassembling the tool from the big box store and local hardware store, how do you guys know if there are multiple versions for a given model?

And what about on-line retailers, like Amazon? Are they also guilty of this practice?


ONLY Big Box stores can carry the de-spec'd products.

The UPC and item number on Home Depot's faucet and the UPC and item number at John's tool store may look the same. BUT when you weigh both of them you will find out that the HD's Weighs 1/2 less as much then John's faucet!!

[Mark Bolton]

We can afford cheap because we have lots of money and can afford to buy cheap once, and again, and again, or we buy quality once, however don't blame the vendor, blame the purchaser.

regards, Rod.

Amazing post to read. Can you imagine 75 percent of the people in the US today reading a post about keeping your bedroom set for 64 years and it still being in good condition? Closest most can come to that is watching the Antiques Roadshow.

I however take a bit of a different twist on where the blame should lay with regards to cheap vs. quality. It seems, at least to me, that we are in a time where the very entities we are talking about have, intentionally I believe, made it far more difficult for the average consumer to choose quality over cheap. I agree fully that the blame can be placed solely at the feet of the consumer but the days of voting with your wallet have been made very hard. I use to be able to walk in to a shop 15 miles from my house and buy an entire Milwaukee Sawzall from parts and assemble it if I wanted to. Virtually any tool they had, they could provide you any part, bearings, trigger, brushes, heck even a new armature if you needed it. Those days are vaporized. I just called our local Dewalt/PC/Delta repair shop 30 miles from my shop for a new belt for our PC belt sander (sucked the cored into into the sander and wiped out the belt ooops), over a week lead time and pay the shipping in to their location.

The average consumer today is overwhelmed with life itself much less having to research, investigate, and so on, on the internet for every purchase they make. We use to be able to rely on a local shop to sell us "the good stuff" even though we still had to be good consumers. You could always buy cheap but if you went to this furniture store you got "the good stuff". Where I live now, for furniture, Well's is "the good stuff" and it isnt that good in my opinion. There is nothing higher, vaporized.

I think the blame lies at both the corporations and the consumers feet. Consumers have gotten lazy, but corporations have done a masterful job at controlling the offering to what best suits profits and appealing to the consumers willingness to go cheap when they are overwhelmed.

Mark

[Russell Smallwood]

I also think that we've forgotten what cheap means.

Solid post Rod.

I would add, however, that doing the math of post war consumerism has to include the additional strain added by the advertising industry. It is mind boggling to think of how many man-hours have/are/will be spent on finding creative ways to convince us that we need more stuff.

The basic consumer footprint of the average American has become considerably larger of the last few decades. How many of our grandparents "had" to have a cell phone, dishwasher, computer, internet provider, surround sound system, large screen television, DVR, cable subscription, electronic air filter, sniffer wet vac, etc. The list goes on and on.

The point is that more and more, we're not going into the store to buy some thing. We now normally have a large list of things, each of which eat into our budget a little more until sometimes, we really can't afford the extra $39 that the better version of the [insert tool here] would have cost.

[Mark Bolton]

sniffer wet vac

Hey, watch your ad's better, thats likely a "swifer wet jet". Not sure if its two f's or one but I just moved a half a dozen of them out of a customers utility closet to do some work. I was swearing the entire time "who needs this many swifers!?!?!"

Har har
Mark

[Russell Smallwood]

Hey, watch your ad's better, thats likely a "swifer wet jet". Not sure if its two f's or one but I just moved a half a dozen of them out of a customers utility closet to do some work. I was swearing the entire time "who needs this many swifers!?!?!"

Har har
Mark

:) - I've managed to avoid those so far but my days are probably numbered.

[Rod Sheridan]

Amazing post to read. Can you imagine 75 percent of the people in the US today reading a post about keeping your bedroom set for 64 years and it still being in good condition? Closest most can come to that is watching the Antiques Roadshow.

I however take a bit of a different twist on where the blame should lay with regards to cheap vs. quality. It seems, at least to me, that we are in a time where the very entities we are talking about have, intentionally I believe, made it far more difficult for the average consumer to choose quality over cheap. I agree fully that the blame can be placed solely at the feet of the consumer but the days of voting with your wallet have been made very hard. I use to be able to walk in to a shop 15 miles from my house and buy an entire Milwaukee Sawzall from parts and assemble it if I wanted to. Virtually any tool they had, they could provide you any part, bearings, trigger, brushes, heck even a new armature if you needed it. Those days are vaporized. I just called our local Dewalt/PC/Delta repair shop 30 miles from my shop for a new belt for our PC belt sander (sucked the cored into into the sander and wiped out the belt ooops), over a week lead time and pay the shipping in to their location.

The average consumer today is overwhelmed with life itself much less having to research, investigate, and so on, on the internet for every purchase they make. We use to be able to rely on a local shop to sell us "the good stuff" even though we still had to be good consumers. You could always buy cheap but if you went to this furniture store you got "the good stuff". Where I live now, for furniture, Well's is "the good stuff" and it isnt that good in my opinion. There is nothing higher, vaporized.

I think the blame lies at both the corporations and the consumers feet. Consumers have gotten lazy, but corporations have done a masterful job at controlling the offering to what best suits profits and appealing to the consumers willingness to go cheap when they are overwhelmed.

Mark

Mark, I agree that the amalgamation of many companies into one has reduced our choices.

It is difficult to find other choices, paradoxically it's never been easier to find other choices, through the internet.

I refuse to reward companies that don't match my purchasing objectives, unless I can't find an alternative.

I look for made in Canada, the USA or Euro in that order.

I wonder if when Delta (just picking an example, not picking on Delta) moved their production offshore, what would have happened if we didn't purchase another piece of Delta equipment?

If we wrote Delta and informed them that we were going to buy their cabinet saw, however we bought a General instead because it was made in NA, would they have "gotten the message"?

I think the shareholders would have "gotten the message" and a new direction at Delta would have taken place.

Maybe that's what we need to do, stop buying certain products and inform the vendors why. The "green" pressure has made significant changes in many companies, whether you agree with that direction or not.

Perhaps it's time for us to take a similar stand and bring those products "back home".

I know the choices I make are all my own, however I also know I spend more money on frivolous stuff like cell phones, TV, internet, coffee at Tim Hortons or Starbucks than my parents would have considered sensible.

If I cut out those things and put aside $200 per month for sake of argument, it doesn't take me long to save enough money for a General machine, quality made in my own country.

Try it, maybe we can make a difference...........Rod.

[brian watson]

Delta faucets another thing that HD had made for them only, plastic internal parts, go to a plumbing supply and the faucet has brass parts. The plastic one may make it a year before it starts leaking and dripping.


Phil

I'm not certain i buy the whole different faucet stuff. When my wife and i built a house we ran into this issue. Both the "consumer grade" and "builder grade" had exact same model numbers and the price difference was huge.

Long story short but i asked the builder/plumber to bring a "builder grade" version of the faucet to compare it with a "consumer grade" version of the faucet. I would buy the consumer grade on my dime. If they were in fact different i would shut my mouth, if they were the same well then the builder/plumber was going to have to make it right since they were charging us well over the amount of the faucet and lying.

I did the research with the manufacturers who all either confirmed verbally, via email, or had FAQ documents on their websites that said there was no such thing as both consumer/builder grade faucets.

Conveniently the builder/plumber was unwilling to put their money where their mouth was and declined to do the comparison. If it was true, and there was no money out of pocket for them to do the comparison then why not show me?

If this is in fact true than we have to go with the assumption that
the faucet manufacturers are knowingly committing fraud by posting documents on their websites and communicating via email to consumers that there are no such things as builder vs. commercial grade. I find that highly unlikely.

At the end of the day, because of this issue the builder then turned around and paid for the plumbing overages. If in fact there was no difference why would they pay for the overage? Why not show me the difference. I would have gladly paid the difference. We didn't balk at paying up-charges any other time.

As they say in Missouri, you're gonna have to show me. Cause all the evidence i have is to the contrary.

[Mark Bolton]

If this is in fact true than we have to go with the assumption that
the faucet manufacturers are knowingly committing fraud by posting documents on their websites and communicating via email to consumers that there are no such things as builder vs. commercial grade. I find that highly unlikely.

As they say in Missouri, you're gonna have to show me.

Brian,
From our experience much of it is model specific and not an across the board thing. Further, I dont think there is any fraud or deception its just again, masterful marketing.

Its not like they have duplicates of every item in the catalog but with regards to Delta specifically they did in fact modify several models for the home center and I believe it came back to haunt them as we even had customers tell us that upon contacting Delta for replacement parts on these models that they should not buy these models from the home center any longer.

It's no surprise that the home centers would negotiate a bathroom faucet for instance with a downgrade to a plastic pop up to reduce the price and its up the the consumer to be aware but that is a leap that just isnt going to happen. You are asking the consumer to learn the mistakes that all of us in the trade learn except they have to learn it with 2-3 faucets in a lifetime when we learn it with 2-3 a day.

I can easily see you finding huge savings over a builders numbers on fixtures as they likely had markups on each of those items and rightly so. They have to procure them, bill/invoice them, deal with them if they are damaged, wrong, missing parts, and warranty them. That all has a cost that the customer thinks should be free though often times builders get a little greedy with the markups.

Mark

[Will Overton]

If the manufacturers are selling an item with the exact same model #, I believe it will be the same no matter where you buy it, with some exception. Manufacturers do change products all the time and most have some kind of disclaimer that specs may change without notice. If I go into the mom & pop hardware store to buy a DeWalt drill, it may have been sitting on the shelf for quite some time. The Borgs turn things over so quickly that they may have the newer, possibly less robust, version of the same item. When mom & pop replace the one I bought, they will have the same thing.

Now, if the model # has a "-a" or something like that attached to the model #, the item might well be a variant.

In general, top brands in the hand held power tool market probably sell more through the Borgs than any other outlet [internet might be up there too]. It would make no sense to ruin their reputation by selling inferior products. A guy on the job sees his buddy's drill fall apart. When he needs to replace a drill, he doesn't ask where did you buy that drill that fell apart, he asks, "What brand was that?"

[brian watson]

That all has a cost that the customer thinks should be free though often times builders get a little greedy with the markups.

Mark

This was in fact the red flag that started the ball rolling. The builder-grade price for the faucet was $150 greater than the consumer-grade price for the faucet. When i didn't get any explanation at all from the builder and only an unwillingness on their part to discuss, I then checked every single fixture on the plumbing work order. Time and time again i found faucets that we changed out where the plumber was charging us more money for faucets that were in fact cheaper from every source i could find than the original faucet. In some cases a 75 dollar up-charge for a faucet that was 25 dollars cheaper. When confronted with the fact the builder blamed the plumbing company.

I don't have a problem paying for better quality and for quality service. Show me the better quality and I'll gladly pay for it. Don't hide behind undocumented, questionable statements. That was my issue. Show me and I'll gladly pay for it, no questions asked.

The service we got from the plumbing company during the warranty period was great. But based on the games they played with us during the building process, once the warranty period expired i will never call them.

The builder: well i wouldn't let them build a dog house for me. I could write a book about them. They built a good house but their customer service folks could take lessons from Al Qeada on how to get along with people. It amazes me they are in business.

[Jason Roehl]

Brian, I think you missed Mark's point.

You can't compare the price of any fixture from a BORG to the price on the invoice from a builder, even if it doesn't include installation. A builder needs to charge a markup on materials/fixtures as part of his business. What that markup is or should be is a subject for another debate, but the trade journal I read advocates around 30-35%. The builder has to account for the time spent discussing the fixture with you, time spent picking it up and paying for it, and even his buying power with the vendor, not to mention that even if he doesn't directly deal with a replacement, you'd be calling him first if there's a warranty issue in the future.

You may even see a subcontractor charging a markup on the materials he uses, then the builder charging a markup on the subcontractor's services (though that markup should be more like 15-20%, IIRC).

[brian watson]

Brian, I think you missed Mark's point.

You can't compare the price of any fixture from a BORG to the price on the invoice from a builder, even if it doesn't include installation. A builder needs to charge a markup on materials/fixtures as part of his business. What that markup is or should be is a subject for another debate, but the trade journal I read advocates around 30-35%. The builder has to account for the time spent discussing the fixture with you, time spent picking it up and paying for it, and even his buying power with the vendor, not to mention that even if he doesn't directly deal with a replacement, you'd be calling him first if there's a warranty issue in the future.

You may even see a subcontractor charging a markup on the materials he uses, then the builder charging a markup on the subcontractor's services (though that markup should be more like 15-20%, IIRC).

I've done enough commissioned work to understand that there is a mark up on materials, etc. But let's not get greedy and let's be honest. This was greed and dishonesty. A 40% markup over the Home Depot price which means its even more than that over the cost? Please.

Couple that with the other plumbing up charges -- nah something stunk to high heaven.

As I said in my first reply, I'll pay for quality work and i understand i have to pay something on top to make sure you are there for to service it later -- but don't make stuff up and lie to me.

[Jim Rimmer]

This has been an interesting thread and even though it's getting long I want to put in my two cents.

One comment was about the mass consumer attitude in the US today. I agree and am guilty. If you look at the houses built after WWII, the closets were small (but adequate). Now houses have to have a huge walk-in closet and many have two in the master suite (another consumer demand). I have a belt holder that my Grandfather had and each time I look at it, I think about how simple his life was. The belt holder has three hooks on it - one for a black belt, one for a brown belt, and one for a work belt. That's all he needed. I think he only owned one suit, as well.

A lot of the problem has been laid at the feet of consumers, and probably justifiably so, but a lot has to be blamed on corporate execs and shareholders. There are a lot more people in the stock market now than a few years ago and the emphasis has been on returns per share. My grandparents didn't own any stock and today you would be hard pressed to find many folks that don't own some. So the corporate focus shifted from satisfying consumers to satisfying shareholders with higher and higher profits.

As has also been mentioned, EDUCATION is the key. You don't know how bad soemthing is until you've seen better. This forum has been a gold mine for me in educating me about tools. I would have bought chisels at the BORG before and then decided I either didn't know how to use/sharpen them very well or just complained that they won't hold an edge or the handles crack, etc. Now I know where to go and what to expect to pay for chisels that I can use, sharpen, and pass on to my son. I think it is the same with non-woodworking items. If you've never seen or don't know where to look for quality goods, then you will buy the cheap goods and just curse the way things have deteriorated.

Last comment: I have been in a manufacturing company for 31 years and the definition of "quality" is also very important. A "quality" anything will do what it is designed to do. If you want a car that will take you from A to B, start when you turn the key, and not let the rain in on you, then a Pinto is a quality car because it will do all that. If you want comfort, safety, radio, A/C, soft ride, etc., now you are talking about goodness. Maybe you need to look at BMW or Mercedes (or thankfully now, a higher end US brand car). Most drills are quality drills - they will hold a bit and drill a hole. If you want more power, less vibration, durability, that's not quality - that's goodness.


Merry Christmas to all.

[Greg Portland]

Ok, but I bet that wasn't a buck brothers chisel.Well, you can sharpen one of those chisels and cut dovetails (I did it before I knew better). You'll need to sharpen it multiple times during the cutting process but they can be made. At a certain point, it makes sense to spend a bit more for a tool that will work more reliably or be more durable. That point differs for various people. I'm sure that people who use the Buck Bros chisels to open paint cans or knock out a section of 2x4 are perfectly happy with the price/quality.

[Greg Portland]

As far as materials go, you're making "high quality" products with bowing birch ply and s4s red oak? Barf.I can pick through the bowed wood if I'm getting a deal. My problem is that the plywood delaminates after a few months!

[Larry Edgerton]

Mark, I agree that the amalgamation of many companies into one has reduced our choices.

It is difficult to find other choices, paradoxically it's never been easier to find other choices, through the internet.

I refuse to reward companies that don't match my purchasing objectives, unless I can't find an alternative.

I look for made in Canada, the USA or Euro in that order.

I wonder if when Delta (just picking an example, not picking on Delta) moved their production offshore, what would have happened if we didn't purchase another piece of Delta equipment?

If we wrote Delta and informed them that we were going to buy their cabinet saw, however we bought a General instead because it was made in NA, would they have "gotten the message"?

I think the shareholders would have "gotten the message" and a new direction at Delta would have taken place.

Maybe that's what we need to do, stop buying certain products and inform the vendors why. The "green" pressure has made significant changes in many companies, whether you agree with that direction or not.

Perhaps it's time for us to take a similar stand and bring those products "back home".

I know the choices I make are all my own, however I also know I spend more money on frivolous stuff like cell phones, TV, internet, coffee at Tim Hortons or Starbucks than my parents would have considered sensible.

If I cut out those things and put aside $200 per month for sake of argument, it doesn't take me long to save enough money for a General machine, quality made in my own country.

Try it, maybe we can make a difference...........Rod.

I have no problem with any of this, and I put Canada and USA on equal footing, Europe third as well.

Unfortunately, most of my machines for the last few years have been Italian. We need some real innovation here in North America in the wood tool business.

[Mark Bolton]

Maybe that's what we need to do, stop buying certain products and inform the vendors why. The "green" pressure has made significant changes in many companies, whether you agree with that direction or not.


Rod,
Completely agree with everything you say. I have hoped for such a boycott or what ever you want to call it but it really seems that, at least in the US, the majority are too _whatever_ to pull something like that off on mass.

Friends and I have often wondered what it would take to truly outrage a massive percentage of the US populous but given all that has happened, Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, Madoff, Wal-Marts on goings, BP, our politicians, the list goes on, I think would have to be armagedon-esk.

Other than 9-11, and even that was fleeting, there isnt many things that even a small percentage of Americans band together on.

Mark

[Greg Portland]

How many of you would be able to afford woodworking if all you had available was Festool, Felder, Sawstop, Minimax and Lie-Nielsen?I think we'd all still afford it but the usage model would be different. In other words, we'd rent time in shops versus owning our tools, etc. This model is in use in larger cities but is not commonplace because people can put together a basic 5-tool shop for under $2k.

[Greg Portland]

Want a good North American wood working machine? You can still buy them, General is still a business located in Quebec.Northfield is another US-made option...

[Julian Tracy]

I'm not so sure I like all the constant propping up of the real supply houses vs. the Borgs in terms of power tools.

It's a lot of BS - if you go get yourself a new Milwaukee sawzall from a supply house - if they ordered and received it within the last year - it'll be a Chinese made tool. Same with ANY Bosch 1587 jigsaw bought at a supply house; unless it's old new stock, it'll be the new Chinese made 5.0amp (vs. the 5.6 amp swiss made older #1587 saw)

In the case with the Bosch jigsaw above and also just about every new Milwaukee tool, the new Chinese manufacturing has happened with the part #'s staying the same.

Only good tools these days are used tools. Supply houses suck in their own way with the fact that just about nothing is price marked and most prices are quite a bit higher and I've yet to meet any salesman that keeps up on new tools as much as I do myself.

Plus - I always wait much longer at the counter at pro supply houses for some reason - must be too many people on somebody else's clock.

As a one man remodeling shop, I'd be hard pressed to NOT use Lowes or Home Depot, but I definitely have mixed feelings about both. My main beef is how they homogenize the mix of products and effectively reduce the options available to you in any given product category.

JT

[Mark Bolton]

As a one man remodeling shop, I'd be hard pressed to NOT use Lowes or Home Depot, but I definitely have mixed feelings about both. My main beef is how they homogenize the mix of products and effectively reduce the options available to you in any given product category.JT

You must have some really ratty supply houses in your area because I have never worked in an area where a good lumber yard was outshined by Howe's or Home Crapo.

If your a one man remodeling shop I dont see how you can afford to go to Home Crapo and Howe's. There is no way you can offset the lost hours pushing a cart through the isles, asking one of the dolts if they have something only to get "uh, if it aint on the shelf we dont gat it", getting to the register and god forbid there is no bar code and you are standing there waiting for "Herb, price check on isle nine" over the intercom, all that added on top of the crap they are selling you. I can head to town and make 5 phone calls from the truck and basically walk in to the counter at 5 suppliers and sign a slip while a yard guy is loading my truck with the _already picked_ order I phoned in and be out the door, usually with a cup of coffee, doughnut, popcorn, whatever.

All those minutes, which add up to hours, pushing a cart and standing are lost dollars. Not to mention a good supply house can get you ANYTHING you want even if they dont normally handle it. Other than a few proprietary items most lumberyards and supply houses can get virtually anything you see in a magazine, internet, etc. through their supply chain. Not true of the borg.

I guess if it works for you its all that matters,
Mark

Mark

[Steven Hsieh]

Northfield is another US-made option...

Burr King is an another one.
http://www.burrking.com/catalog/p-100014/model-12-disc-grinder

[Jim Finn]

[QUOTE=Tony Zaffuto;1579274]I got several pcs. of Lowes "hardwood" plywood a week or so ago..............I bought some 1/2" exterior ply there at Lowes and when I cut it it spread apart about 6" in some places. Two sheets is all I bought and both were that way. Gonna' try elseware next time.

[David Weaver]

Burr King is an another one.
http://www.burrking.com/catalog/p-100014/model-12-disc-grinder

Kalamazoo and baldor, too.

[Greg Portland]

Kalamazoo and baldor, too.
Nope; Baldor is made in various plants across the US, Canada, England, Mexico and China.

[Harry Goodwin]

They sell a lot of great tools but you an return them at a moments notice with some sorry excuses. Worth a lot.

[Greg Bender]

I just noticed this thread and after reading all the post's can only add that I live in the same town here in North Carolina that is also the recently built Corporate Home of Lowes.In a town of about 25000 people and Lowes has near 6000 employees at Corporate everybody has a friend or neighbor that works there or is employed by a vendor who also relocated here. Our local store has become the training facility for store managers and kind of a corporate experiment for display designs,products,and trends.Let me tell you,if what we are seeing here is coming to a Lowes near you then this thread will have the half life of uranium.We have two stores close by and both are pretty new but the one that is in the same town as the main office absolutely is the worst shopping experience you will ever have. Oh, and the stories about the acquisition of Delta/Porter Cable by Black and Decker and then the consolidation of B&D and Stanley Tools combined with Lowes having some heavy handed input on the design of porter cables new cordless tools is eye opening stuff. Whether it's all true is for someone else to decide,all I know is a new PC cordless drill for $89 was proof enough for me. I'll stick with buying the best that is available at the time and with Ridgid's lifetime battery warranty and ryobi's prices that is the direction I have gone. I have enough Dewalt $89 dead batteries to choke a horse......my $.02
Greg

[David Thompson 27577]

{you said some stuff, then you said.....}I live in the same town here in North Carolina that is also the recently built Corporate Home of Lowes. {then you said some more stuff........}
Greg

I'll ask of you a favor. If you would please, tell every Lowes-home-office person that you meet, that the store in Smithfield NC is doing so well, that I have determined that there is only one thing they need. I know it might seem amazing, but there really is only one missing element.

The local Lowe's needs a competitor. Cuz if they had one, I'd go there. (And in many cases, I'll drive 20 miles to get to one.)

[Greg Bender]

David,
I know exactly how you feel ,I have two Lowes close by and I pass by a third on the way to HD just to shop in spite.I also find myself at the local Hardware and Sherwin Williams stores alot more often.I'll put the word in for you.
Greg

[Harlan Barnhart]

I just visited my parents over Christmas. They are just small enough to avoid attracting Lowes/HD and as a result they have two fully stocked, locally owned lumberyard/hardware stores, each carrying a slightly different line of product. What could be better?

[John Nesmith]

If you don't like Lowes and HD, don't go there.

I agree.

It's funny how some can go on and on about the poor quailty of specific products sold by the Borgs. How much time does one have to spend in those stores to acquire such product-specific knowledge? What are they doing spending so much time in stores they hate?

It makes no sense.