Sliding table saw: Too esoteric/specialized?

[James Henderson]

I am currently using a Delta contractors saw that I purchased in '87. It's in great shape and equipped with a cast iron extension wing, Woodpecker PRL and Incra TSLS III + Wonder Fence. It works well, and my son and I use it often, building furniture, cabinets, etc. I use a Festool track saw to break down sheet goods.

But, the Delta is missing a riving knife and I am very safety conscious - especially with my son as a second shop user. I planned to purchase a SawStop ICS and possibly a slider attachment in replacement. But this week I received a sales flyer from Felder with good pricing on K3 Winner packages, which prompted research on sliders.

I am surprised how few have actually transitioned to a slider and how little online information (reviews, tutorials, etc) exists. Aside from Paul Cresti's posts on this board and a small number of 'slider evangelists', it's slim-pickings. I visited a K3 user's shop last week and now I'm vacillating on my saw selection.

On the one hand, the ICS would allow me to retain the excellent Incra fence, provide a riving knive and I could add a slider accessory, resulting in a familiar yet safer table saw solution.

Conversely, a 79" slider on the K3 seems even safer than the ICS for all crosscuts and if I add an Incra crosscut fence (as another user did), the system could approach the convenience of the TSLSIII. But in all honesty, I am concerned that the Felder overall will never really equal the ease and accuracy of the ICS + Incra fence for a furniture builder.

My shop is indistinguishable from a 3-car garage. I don't have the room or inclination to house both types of table saws.

So my question is: Do you think I'll find the slider accurate and convenient enought to use it exclusively? Obviously, there is no "right" answer. I am just trying to benefit from your experiences.

[Bas Pluim]

I'm going through a similar internal debate right now. I'm not sure which side is winning.

My main issue with the traditional cabinet saw is that you need so many accessories for it to perform basic tasks. A sliding table, an aftermarket miter gauge, a crosscut sled, a tapering jig, featherboards, an outfeed table, push blocks etc. And only the newer (and typically more expensive) saws have a riving knife and dust collection in the blade guard. A slider seems to have a lot more features built-in by design.

Price-wise, a fully loaded SawStop would be in the same range as the K3 Winner. And Grizzly makes some very interesting sliders too below $3K.

[Peter Quinn]

So my question is: Do you think I'll find the slider accurate and convenient enought to use it exclusively?

Uh, short answer, Yes. I find sliding table saws less convenient for ripping than a cabinet saw, but far more convenient at almost every thing else. Accurate? You bet, more accurate when set up properly than any sled or most jigs I have seen or made. And very repeatable. I don't have one at home, but I use several at work, and they are indispensable in a custom shop. My ideal set up for a small shop? Sliding table saw and sliding shaper combo.

Safe? Well, most euro sliders aren't going to stop if you put your hand or a hot dog into the blade, but they make it harder to to do so and easier to avoid. Safe work habits are still required with a slider. Rule one, don't put your hand into the spinning blade. Rule two, never forget rule one. Never.

[Karl Brogger]

Rule one, don't put your hand into the spinning blade. Rule two, never forget rule one. Never.

:D

I'd like to add rule three: Pull your head out, and engage your brain

[Paul Murphy]

I don't have a slider, but think one would be very nice to have. I doubt I'll ever have one at this point, but I can see their advantages.

You have a very practical combo in the track saw and contractors saw. Even if you buy a slider you still might prefer to cut sheet goods in half with the track saw. If you have accumulated the crosscut sled, tapering jig, etc., then your decision might come down to the value of a riving knife and/or blade brake. That's a very individual decision.

[Van Huskey]

I must admit I am a cabinet saw fan BUT this is because I can't seem to completely wrap my head around a slider in doing ALL the functions I use my TS for. That said I have never seen anyone who bought a slider and used it for a while wish they kept their cabinet saw. If you are spending ICS money I think a slider is a no brainer instead and the more you use sheet goods the more it swings toward the slider.

[Karl Brogger]

If given the option of spending $15k on a new Altendorf, or $15k on a used vertical panel saw..... I would be all over the v. panel saw.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

I have one of the configurations you're thinking about --a sliding table (exactor) added to a table saw. The sliding table is so useful and accurate, if by some chance I have a $ windfall-- I'd jump at the chance for a true sliding table saw. From this forum, you should discern that ripping isn't the big problem it might sound like. In my ideal world, to save real estate in the shop I'd prefer a smaller slider and a vertical panel saw next to my sheet good storage ... I hate to cart sheet goods!

[C Scott McDonald]

I got the Hammer with the short slider. I love it. It is the best of both worlds. Can I rip an 8ft sheet of ply? nope. I rarely use plywood anyways so it isnt a big deal to me. As you all ready know it is easier to break down sheets with a track saw anyway.

A fellow creeker let me try ripping hard wood on his 9' felder slider and it wasnt for me. It was really awkward to me.

To each their own. In the end you are the one who has to use it so buy what you like.

Scott


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/repairman87/hammertime5.jpg

[Stephen Cherry]

But in all honesty, I am concerned that the Felder overall will never really equal the ease and accuracy of the ICS + Incra fence for a furniture builder.

My shop is indistinguishable from a 3-car garage. I don't have the room or inclination to house both types of table saws.

So my question is: Do you think I'll find the slider accurate and convenient enought to use it exclusively? Obviously, there is no "right" answer. I am just trying to benefit from your experiences.

I've got a Felder k975 and a inca 259. Big and little.

Bulding mortise and tenon tables with this sort of setup is extremely easy. For table tops, face joint and plane stock, rip one side on the slide, rip the other side to maximize the width on the slide. With a good rip blade, there is no need for the jointer. Glue. Dimensioning the glued up table top on the slide is just as easy as a single board.

Tapered table legs? Start with bandsawn leg blanks. Straitline one side, rotate, straitline the next side. Rip against the fence twice. No need for jointer or planer. The fun part is tapering. This involves setting the flipstop for the top of the leg, and clamping a piece of wood to the slide to project the taper over the blade. A second clamp holds the leg blank to the slide. Taper one side, flip and taper the other. No jigs necessary, and it's all over very quickly.

As for safety, when using the slide, your hand is nowhere near the blade.

Then inca is a super saw for mortise and tenons. It can cut both, and is microscopic, and light, and precise.

And, of course, all of this can be bought used at ridiculously low prices. My felder was about the same as a souped up sawstop.

[frank shic]

james what do you and your son plan on building? if you're planning on doing cabinets, a smaller slider isn't going to help unless it's got at least a 48" stroke to be able to crosscut sheet stock. i outfitted my powermatic contractor's saw with an exaktor sliding table and could not be happier... unless i had a sawstop instead for the safety issues you mentioned.

[Peter Aeschliman]

One thing to keep in mind:

Yes, a sliding table saw helps keep your hands farther away from the blade when cutting panels. But your hands aren't exactly close to the blade when cutting panels on a cabinet saw either...

The real injury risk comes in when you're doing rip cuts with the rip fence- slider or cabinet saw, your hand will be close to the blade, which increases the chance of an accident. So for rip cuts, the Sawstop wins the safety comparison.

I have a Sawstop PCS and recently installed an Excalibur sliding table. It works great. I guarantee that the Hammer sliding table is better, but again, it also doesn't have the safety mechanism for rip cuts.

I guess the only thing I can think of that would give you the best of both worlds (a true sliding table and more safety for rip cuts) would be to buy the Hammer and install a power feeder for your ripping operations.... but for a hobbiest, that just seems too cumbersome. You're not likely to get the power feeder set up for every rip cut, especially if you have to move your fence around a lot.

IMO, if your main reason for replacing your saw is safety, get a Sawstop with a good sliding table attachment. If your main reason is to improve your panel cutting capacity and accuracy, get the Hammer.

Sawstop needs to come out with a true slider with a nice solid rip fence... if they had one, the answer would be clear for you.

I don't think you'll be disappointed by either, though.

[Mike Konobeck]

I made a similar decision. I went from a Delta contractor saw that I had fully setup with about every option you could put on it to a Felder combo. I have to say that I used the contractor saw long enough where I was comfortable with it but it was lacking in a lot of areas and the opportunity came up to buy used. Knowing what I know now I would make the same decision.

The construction of the Hammer/Felder machines is downright amazing. There is no such thing as sheetmetal parts on it. Everything is plate steel, extruded aluminum, and cast iron. There really is no comparison but I have to say that every day I use it I have to think a bit more about how to use it. Everything is so heavy and bulky on it that I find it difficult to switch between functions, including rip and crosscut. You just have to approach the work differently and plan ahead better. It is probably making me more efficient but has been a painful learning experience. Especially when I don't use it every day.

There are times when I wish I had my old saw back but then I just learn and move on. It is a bit different having all the functions in one machine where you wouldn't have to worry about that with just a slider. I think when you spend this kind of money on a saw then people will justify the cost somehow and that desire to make it work probably helps. There is no going back for me at this point. I couldn't imagine being without the capabilities of the saw (overall combo really). I am a hobby woodworker so I don't haul sheet goods around all of the time or work with it for 8-12 hours a day. Breaking stuff down is just smart no matter what kind of saw you have so as long as you already have the Festool then hold onto it and use it when necessary.

I have to admit that I am surprised people would still make the decision to go with a SawStop, Powermatic, etc. when you could get the Hammer for about the same money and not have to invest in the aftermarket sliding tables. It just makes financial sense to go with the K3. If you don't have a shaper then consider the B3. All you get is an expensive piece of engineering with the SawStop that prevents/minimizes the damage of an accident that really can be avoided by using a true slider. Accidents happen and I see the value in the technology but the design of the sliders far exceeds the build quality of an American cabinet saw. You still run a risk of chopping fingers off so I am not saying that it is accident proof but I don't find myself working in close proximity to the blade on a regular basis anymore.

My absolute biggest complaint is the cost of the accessories. My wallet cries just looking at the catalog. Since I purchased used I was fortunate enough to get a ton of accessories. If I had to buy even a fraction of what I got then my family would be eating beans cooked over an open fire for a few months.

I could write more about the functionality but you should really just find someone local to try the saw for yourself to see if it is something you could get used to. If you would like more specifics then PM me and I would be happy to chat more.

[Peter Aeschliman]

You still run a risk of chopping fingers off so I am not saying that it is accident proof but I don't find myself working in close proximity to the blade on a regular basis anymore.

Mike, do you use the sliding table for your rip cuts? Otherwise, I don't see how you can avoid getting your hands close to the blade regularly.

[david blakelock]

James, I started a very similar thread a few weeks ago. I was about to buy a Sawstop PCS and an after market sliding table. By the time the discussion was over I had ordered a Hammer sliding table saw. They were on sale so that helped me make my decision. Not sure if they are still on sale, but I would check out their web site and talk to their rep Carl. He is a great guy. I get my saw in a couple of weeks and will post pictures as well as document the setup and my initial impressions. I currently have a very old and very beat up Sears Craftsman table saw so anything would have been a major improvement. From what I have been told and it has been brought up again in this thread is that using a slider is different from using a cabinet saw and it takes some getting used to. But I have not heard a single bad thing about the Hammer (other than the price...)

Good luck on your decision.

David

[Frank Drew]

99% of the time it's that momentary inattention when using cutting tools that causes accidents in the workshop, not the tools themselves; keep your body parts where they're supposed to be and you'll be ok (and I say that as someone who's gotten dinged from briefly not paying attention to what I was doing.)

I've never used a large slider, but mine, which was basically a good, strong cabinet saw with a relatively large, original equipment sliding table, could crosscut to 53", and my rip fence could extend to 39" from the blade. With very, very few exceptions, it handled all my sawing needs; it was the mainstay of my shop, and I never ever would have gone back to a regular cabinet saw.

[Jeff Monson]

James, I'm a newbie slider owner also, coming from a delta contractors saw, then a pm2000 and now a felder slider. I'm amazed every time I do work with this saw at how well it is made.

In the past 2 weeks I've run every scenario at it, large sheet goods, rip cuts, dado cuts, panel raising, shaping and routing. I love every aspect of this machine, you could not get me to go back to a cabinet saw and I've only owned my slider for a couple months. With the combination of a riving knife and the slider, its a very safe feeling saw.

I've also been cutting a few parts from 3/4" oak plywood, my saw has a scoring unit, and wow the cuts are perfect.

If you can get your hands on a hammer for the price of a cabinet saw it would be a no brainer in my mind. I own a hammer J/P unit and the quaility is every bit as good as my felder saw.

[Philip Rodriquez]

There is no right answer... Budget, safety, space, and existing tools all factor in. Personally, I think you cannot go wrong with either.

Originally, I started out with a DeWalt hybrid TS. Later, I added an Excalibur sliding table (49"). I absolutely loved the sliding attachment!

After several years, I was able to step up to the ICS Sawstop. Because of the (at the time) $4,200 price tag, I was reluctant to cut the rails so I could attach my sliding table... so I tried to live without it.

After a short time, I realized that there were too many cases where I couldn't do what I wanted to, safely and efficiently. In the end, I grabbed my hacksaw and mounted the table. That was about 2 years ago and it has remained in perfect alignment.

In my case, I already had a 10”x84” jointer, a 15” planer, and a 3 HP shaper… so I never looked at the combo machines. However, if you don’t already have these, I would seriously look at one of them. Today, I have the about $11,000 invested in tools that a combo machine could provide in one small package… just something worth thinking about.

[Mike Ruggeri]

I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer here but rather you have to consider what works best for you and your work habits.

I went from a Delta contractor's saw to a Unisaw to a Minimax combo with sliding tablesaw. While I loved my Unisaw (and still miss it), I felt that moving to a slider would be better for me in the long run and it would be safer than the Unisaw (I really wanted a riving knife). At first I had buyers remorse as I asked myself why I bought a sliding table that can go 8+ feet. Now having used the slider for just over 6 months, I would never consider a shorter version and am glad I went with the longer slider. Keep in mind I work in 1/2 of a 2 car garage so my space is tight but I now have no problem giving up the real estate to the slider.

Moviing from a contractor's saw to the Unisaw required no adjustment in my work habits. Moving from the Unisaw to the slider required several changes. While there are many things I like about the slider (straight line ripping, riving knife, scoring, smooth as silk function, etc..), there are still things I need to work around. One is that while the rip fence is acceptable, I don't think it is as good as the Unifence I had previously used - maybe I will have to add an aftermarket fence at some point. My second peeve is that it is harder to switch from cross cut mode to rip mode on a slider than a cabinet makers saw as moving the cross cut fence is more time consuming than just lifting out the old miter guage.

Even with the change in work habits and the minor shortcomings of the slider, I really enjoy using it and can say I have no plans of ever going back to the traditional cabinet saw.

Good luck with the decision.

Mike

[Jon van der Linden]

If you're going to choose one over the other, the sliding table saw wins hands down.

For safety, it's easy to clamp things to the sliding table. This way you can safely make cuts that wouldn't be advisable on a standard saw. The location of the sliding table keeps you out of the line of fire for kickback because you have to stand off to the side.

For accuracy, it's easy to set up your table for squareness etc. within a few thousandths of an inch over its travel length. You can also use clamps etc. to get a perfect glue ready edge off a cut. It's great for cutting joints because you can set up cross cuts and angles relatively easily, or even hold jigs.

The main downside is that if you have a short table, you might need to remove the crosscut fence when ripping longer boards. Many models have rip fences that aren't as rigid as what is commonly available on cheaper cabinet saws (but you shouldn't really be pressing hard on that anyway).

For me personally, the ability to clamp to the sliding table makes the whole thing more than worth it.

If you look at the high end sliding table saws like Martin the disadvantages tend to disappear. But then you're paying $20k+ and accessories will generally run $2-5k each.

[Mike Konobeck]

Mike, do you use the sliding table for your rip cuts? Otherwise, I don't see how you can avoid getting your hands close to the blade regularly.

You are absolutely right that when ripping narrow stuff where you have to guide the material on the right side of the blade you are going to have the same issue. Where the slider works nicely is when the ripping is done on a wider board and you can work do the left of the blade. I can hold the material down to the slider and guide the material well away from the blade. I don't need to push the material from the back of the board but rather just guide it with my fingers well away from tracking of the blade. You could argue that you would do something similar on an cabinet saw but the problem is that I always found myself grabbing the back of the workpiece to help it through the blade and in turn having to guide the piece by the blade with no reference to where my hand was. I have all of my fingers so I can't say that was truly unsafe but it did feel unsafe.

There are special fences you can buy to use the slider to do all of your ripping. Again, my wallet cries when just looking at those options but they are made to last and some day I am sure I will make the investment. I don't feel unsafe ripping unless the stock gets narrow and you have to work to the right of the blade.

Common sense is still the number one saftey feature on any equipment. Saftey is not going to be the number one reason you buy a slider. If you were to set a Hammer K3 or Felder XXX next to a SawStop, Powermatic, Delta, etc. then you would be hard pressed to pick the cabinet saw based on build quality and use. I know that people have a preference and if you have been working on a cabinet saw for 30+ years it is going to be difficult to move to a slider and justify the utility. No harm in that. You could argue that a slider is not going to automaticaly make you a better woodworker or give you an advantage to make a better product. It just depends on your work style, interest in tools, work you do, etc. If you always wanted a slider then get one. If you never wanted one but people keep telling you it is the best thing since sliced bread then I would probably stay away from one unless you really feel like you want to change your work style. Please don't virtually flog me for those statements. Just an opinion.

[Norb Schmidt]

I've got a MM combo with an 8.5' slider and really have grown to love this tool (upgrade from a contractors saw). The biggest difference to a slider vs. cabinet saw (and the SS is a great saw, as are a few others) is how you approach the work.

For ripping operations, traditionally we push the wood from behind through the saw. When you add the slider mechanism, you have to (if you are pushing from behind) move to your right when you get close to the saw. That is ackward and is not the recommended method. For ripping (using the rip fence) on a slider, you approach the saw from the side and slide the wood past the blade, keeping your hands and body well out of the danger zone for kickback. Yes, small pieces are a problem only if they are very short - then rip them from the slider side. Of course, that's the magic of the slider. The more you can do on the slider side, the easier and safer the work becomes.

You've got lots of good comments from this post. It's good to see there are other slider nuts out there.

I too wish some well spoken european would put out a tutorial on the fundamental approach to a slider. Perhaps we can all beg Kelly Mehler to do it.

[Greg Portland]

You are absolutely right that when ripping narrow stuff where you have to guide the material on the right side of the blade you are going to have the same issue. Where the slider works nicely is when the ripping is done on a wider board and you can work do the left of the blade. I can hold the material down to the slider and guide the material well away from the blade. I don't need to push the material from the back of the board but rather just guide it with my fingers well away from tracking of the blade.Mike beat me to it. Most rips can use the slider mechanism. For super-long rips or ripping thin boards (i.e. hard to clamp) you have to use a power feeder or do it manually. If you are getting a combo shaper-saw then you'll probably have the power feeder anyway...

[frank shic]

i set the crosscut fence 1" away from the blade to allow for trimming of longer pieces which would otherwise collide with the crosscut fence although i bought a portable table saw to handle the majority of my solid wood cuts.

[Dale Schack]

Mark Duginske had a short article on sliders ... and was one of the reasons I purchased my Felder CF 741 S Pro ...

Here is a link to the article : Dugniske on Sliding Table Saws (http://fpartner2009.felder-group.com/files/testreport/tsr_pdf_241_1_703.pdf)

[David Laaneorg]

I work in a custom shop and we have two sliders and one unisaw. The unisaw we have set up for dados. The sliders we use for everything else. They are quite amazing and safe to use. For rip cuts, the sliding table has a lock which we engage, then we move the cross-cut fence out of the way. Then we rip with the piece to the right of the blade, and when we get close to the blade, we use push sticks. We have added offcut tables behind the saw that extend as far as the sliding table goes (about 110"). As well, we always use the splitter and guards. Being able to clamp to the sliding table is a huge benifit. But the biggest gain is repeatability. A good sliding table saw is reliable and fast. And the scoring blades make working with melamines and veneered plywood a joy.

[Jim Becker]

I moved to a slider several years ago and I'm not looking back...I love the thing. Yes, there was a learning curve relative to some operations and new ways to perform them, but the precision of these machines is amazing. And the safety factor is also very attractive.

I own a Minimax slider and have been very pleased with it. There are a number of other good manufacturers to consider, some already mentioned in this thread. One thing to consider is to insure that you have the required space available for the slider's wagon (the actual sliding part) to make it's full travel...with material aboard...in the area of your shop where you plan on placing it. My 8'6" slider requires a total of 19' for full travel, for example. Know the specifications of your choice and also consider space needs if your intended machine has a larger cross-cut outrigger.

[Mike Heidrick]

For my shop I would love a horiz panel saw to go with my ICS sawstop. I bought a sliding table T1002S shaper though and that is a sweet machine too so I can see both worlds. Tracksaw for now until a good horiz panel but some day.

If I can ever get a CNC Martin or digitalized 7/9 series Felder I will add it to the sawstop LOL. Need a second shop first. I just love using nice crazy tools and learning to use them.

I personally hate lifting 4X8 sheets. MDF is super heavy to me. 4x4 is Ok. I break down 4X8 sheets right from the truck - flat right out of the bed onto 3" closed cell foam and the tracksaw when I can.

How much fun is it lifting a 4X8 sheet to a sliding table?

Those sheet lifter ceiling mounted systems are crazy nice!

[Chris Mahmood]

I've got a Felder k975 and a inca 259. Big and little.

This seems like the best combination if you work with sheet goods, I've never understood why more people don't go this route. My INCA 259 is over thirty years old and has a riving knife and great hold down system, a blade guard that you actually like using, a small sliding table, and the mortiser you mention. I grew up using a Unisaw that was built in the 1950s and other a more efficient motor and some trunnion changes I don't see how the Completely! New! Unisaw is any different (OK, they finally added a riving knife and better dust collection) than that one. A 259 isn't for everyone, especially since inca.ch won't ship parts to North America, but there must be some other small well-build saw that's designed for working with solid wood instead of these dinosaur cabinet saws that Delta, Powermatic, etc. keep pushing decade after decade.

[Kevin Stockwell]

I think the idea of keeping the wood stable and moving the blade will eventually be the way we work most safely.Those Eurekazone folks seem to be on the right track, but the concept needs polishing. It is a much better idea to use a saw on a track and have the wood clamped down. I decided against the slider myself after looking hard at the Hammer saws on sale, but I am still searching for the ideal solution.

[Rod Sheridan]

I went from a General 650 to a Hammer B3 Winner with the 49" sliding table.

One comment I often see is the difficulty in ripping using a slider.

Since I have the smaller slider, my machine is "square" like a cabinet saw, it doesn't have a projection for the sliding table.

This means that when ripping using the fence, it feels exactly like a cabinet saw, so it was very familiar to mee.

The fence is better than most as it can be used in the high position, low position for narrow strips, or adjusted for length such as when rippping solid stock.

of course you can also straight line rip (something a cabinet saw doesn't do) and parallel rip using the slider.

Like most people who purchase a Euro slider, you couldn't convince me to go back to a cabinet saw, and I mostly use solid wood.

Regards, Rod.

[James Henderson]

Thank you all for your comments. They've been very helpful. I have decided to purchase a slider. Now, I'd like your input on the specific configuration.

Earlier this month, I ordered a Hammer A3 31 J/P with Shelix. I still plan to purchase this machine, but Felder will allow me to convert to a combination machine if desired. If I were to purchase a combination, I can get a good price on the C3 31, but I prefer, and would probably purchase, the Felder CF 531 instead. Or, I could proceed with the A3 31, and purchase a saw or saw/slider combination.

Even though the combination would occupy a smaller footprint in my 3-car garage, after much consideration I am leaning towards purchasing a saw/slider combination instead of the 4-in-1 combination. I would purchase either a Felder or MiniMax unit.

I am considering are the MiniMax ST3 Smart or 79" Felder B3 Winner Comfort. Similarly priced, with options included. From the sales propoganda, the ST3 seems like a better machine. But I would lose the potential synergy of a single vendor. For example extension tables would probably not be compatible between the J/P and the S/S.

What are your thoughts on:
Separates vs the 4-in-1 machine?
Specific slider/shaper selection?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi James, I went through those decisions and chose a Hammer B3 Winner and an A3-31 jointer/planer.

I went with separates because my shop is "L" shaped, and the 5 in 1 combination machines need a square room to accommodate their layout.

I looked at Laguna, Mini Max, Felder and Hammer.

Felder/Hammer seemed to have the best selection of accessories, as well as the best dealer support in my area. (Felder has a corporate store in Toronto, the others have dealers who don't have much stock of anything).

In addition the Felder team has local factory trained and supported field service technicians.

I felt that for home use, the Hammer line gave me the most return for my money.

When I bought my B3, the 500 series Felder machines had the Hammer saw/shaper internals, with the Felder X roll slider. It wasn't a combination that in my opinion was worth the extra money.

If you want a machine that's substantially better than the Hammer, you're into the 700 series machines.

I don't think you would regret buying either the MiniMax or Felder/Hammer machine.

I wouldn't buy a machine from a non manufacturer however because in 10 years if you want a part, they still own the intellectual property and can make a part from archive drawings.

When you're simply an importer, you don't have that ability.

Nothing to worry about if your $200 tool gets thrown out, something of an entire different caliber however when your $15,000 machine is in the same boat.

Regards, Rod.

[Jon van der Linden]

Thank you all for your comments. They've been very helpful. I have decided to purchase a slider. Now, I'd like your input on the specific configuration.

Earlier this month, I ordered a Hammer A3 31 J/P with Shelix. I still plan to purchase this machine, but Felder will allow me to convert to a combination machine if desired. If I were to purchase a combination, I can get a good price on the C3 31, but I prefer, and would probably purchase, the Felder CF 531 instead. Or, I could proceed with the A3 31, and purchase a saw or saw/slider combination.

Even though the combination would occupy a smaller footprint in my 3-car garage, after much consideration I am leaning towards purchasing a saw/slider combination instead of the 4-in-1 combination. I would purchase either a Felder or MiniMax unit.

I am considering are the MiniMax ST3 Smart or 79" Felder B3 Winner Comfort. Similarly priced, with options included. From the sales propoganda, the ST3 seems like a better machine. But I would lose the potential synergy of a single vendor. For example extension tables would probably not be compatible between the J/P and the S/S.

What are your thoughts on:
Separates vs the 4-in-1 machine?
Specific slider/shaper selection?

Generally it's best to keep things as separate as possible. That way you can switch between machines without taking down setups etc. Having 4 machines in a garage would put a squeeze on space. I'd want to stay away from the 4 in 1 because it's much more of a pain to use or to upgrade if you ever decide to do so.

My 2c on the Felder vs MiniMax is that it's best to try them out and see what you actually like. I can say that I sold an AD741 combo jointer planer to someone who had just purchased a MiniMax and was sending it back because it had serious problems. All these companies have occasional issues like that, so I wouldn't necessarily count that against MiniMax. I've owned several Felders and they're very good for their price point.

I know you didn't ask about this, but why the shelix head? Anything without straight blades leaves additional ridges + changing to a fresh edge will take forever compared to Tersa or even Felder's indexable proprietary cutters. I know there are plenty of people that like them, I'm just not a fan myself.

I'm sure that regardless of which one's you choose you'll enjoy a significant change in performance.

[James Henderson]

I chose the Shelix only on the basis of my consolidated analysis of many forum posts. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but I have never used one.

I have a Dewalt 735 now, with conventional blades and I am happy with it. When pondering the upgrade to the A3 31, I figured "In for a penny, in for a pound".

What about the Shelix do you dislike (aside from the financial damage)?

[Chris Friesen]

I know you didn't ask about this, but why the shelix head? Anything without straight blades leaves additional ridges + changing to a fresh edge will take forever compared to Tersa or even Felder's indexable proprietary cutters.

Do you consider the jointer or planer to be the last tool to touch the wood before finishing? For myself, I prefer to hand plane or sand out the machine marks and so the teeny bit of extra work to get rid of the marks from a carbide cutterhead isn't a big deal compared to the fact that I won't need to change blades for a long time.

Admittedly, I haven't used anything with a Tersa head.

[John Sanford]

I haven't had the pleasure of using a slider, but I have lustfully oggled and fondled them at the AWFS here in Vegas a few years ago.

Given my current circumstances, my dream saw would be a well built slider/shaper combo that runs on 120v and has the SawStop mechanism. The only difference between that and my Ultimate Dream Saw is the UDS would come with a 5 acre lot in rolling terrain covered with hardwoods, a 2-3 bedroom house, and a 1200 sq ft woodshop with lots of natural light and 240v power availability. (If you're gonna dream, dream big! :D )

That said, I can't give any guidance between the Felder/Hammer and the Minimax. It's kinda like "BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, or Infiniti". I can offer my insights on configuration though....

The key to combination machines is how you work, although dimensional considerations can trump even this factor. The more variety in the work you do, both in types of projects, and in the quantities involved, both in quantity per project AND number of projects you're working on at the same time, the more "cumbersome" the combination machines become. If every project you build is different, and you only build one of each project, while working on multiple projects, then you have to be extremely disciplined and organized in order to minimize the amount of changeovers. Conversely, if you're building 10 of something while only working on one project at a time, changeover time becomes less of an issue. An honest assessment of one's work habits and disciplines can be difficult, but it can be invaluable here.

To my mind, for me, the sweet spot from a value/flexibility standpoint is a sliding saw/shaper combo and a jointer/planer combo. Toss the slot mortiser on there as well, just for grins.

[Jeff Monson]

To my mind, for me, the sweet spot from a value/flexibility standpoint is a sliding saw/shaper combo and a jointer/planer combo. Toss the slot mortiser on there as well, just for grins.


Couldnt agree more, for me the J/P combo and seperate saw/shaper combo work well in my shop layout. Switch over times are very quick with either unit.

James, 1 word of advice I can offer is really think about how you would
like the machine configured. Slider length, outrigger, lots of things to consider. One thing that really helped me was to ask alot of questions and do alot of reading. Felders website also has some really good videos, I watched everyone many times, it really helped me get a feel for their configurations and what I wanted in a machine.

[James Henderson]

I use a Domino now and was not planning on purchasing the mortiser for the A3 31. Bad choice?

Below are the options I think I need for the slider/shaper:
Standard scoring unit
Cutting and table extension 1250 mm 49 inches
Professional rip fence with solid steel bar
Micro Adjustment for saw fence
Removable flange for dado blade
Sliding table >= 2000 mm
Outrigger table 1100
Precision miter guide INDEX for Outrigger
Crosscut fence 1300 mm
Mobility package
Extension table to mount on slider
2ea) Hold down clamps
Ripping shoe
16" Adapter rail to allow A3 31 aluminum extension mount as out-feed on saw
2ea) ripping and crosscut blades
scoring blade
Mounting device to mount x-cut fence right on slider
2ea) Shaper head "starter" kits.

I plan to rig up some sort of indexed (incra/jointech) parallel fence for rip cuts

Do I need a power feeder immediately to safely use a shaper?
What am I missing?

[Paul Murphy]

If you make a lot of mortise joints, a slot mortiser starts looking very attractive. I don't know how handy the attachment is for your planned machine, which would be a big factor in the decision if it were me.

[Peter Aeschliman]

If you make a lot of mortise joints, a slot mortiser starts looking very attractive. I don't know how handy the attachment is for your planned machine, which would be a big factor in the decision if it were me.

I agree 193%.

I have the slot mortiser attachment for my Laguna Jointer/Planer combo. It's a super useful accessory. In fact, that attachment is the main reason I went with the Laguna over the Grizzly or Jet combo machine.

If you have the money to add that on (I know the accessories for those machines are really expensive), do it for sure!

[Jeff Monson]

James, I use a domino also, havent felt a need for a slot mortiser quite yet either. But thats something that can be added at any time.

Your configuration looks really nice to me,

standard scoring unit is belt driven, just so you know

power feed is not necessary right away IMO, I use my shaper without
the feeder for quite a few small operations. When it comes to panel raising or large profile cuts then I use it always.

I have come to really like the router spindle also, that in combination with the shaper fence is really nice. I had a powermatic pm2700 shaper and the felder fence is every bit as nice.

[Jon van der Linden]

Do you consider the jointer or planer to be the last tool to touch the wood before finishing? For myself, I prefer to hand plane or sand out the machine marks and so the teeny bit of extra work to get rid of the marks from a carbide cutterhead isn't a big deal compared to the fact that I won't need to change blades for a long time.

Admittedly, I haven't used anything with a Tersa head.

The Tersa blade changes in a few minutes at most (also comes in carbide, dummy, and other flavors) and I've yet to hear of an alignment problem. Changing that many insert cutters is going to take a lot of time. There are other issues, but mostly they come down to a personal preference as to where compromises will be made and where time will be spent.

I would NEVER use a jointer or planer to produce the final surface, because the defects are obvious to anyone that looks. I do use it to produce a glue joint surface and I've never had a problem doing that.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Well it sure has been awhile since I have posted here!....so here is my two cents!

Yes get the separates unless you are space constrained or trying to save a couple of dollars. Get the longest slider you can fit in your shop but do not forget if you have overhead doors you can position a longer slider in suck a way to use it to its full extents. I have my positioned so that I can do anything 8'-0" and under without needing to open the OH door.

There are lots of reasons to get the longest you can....

The J/P simply work quite well together no issues for me.

A separate saw will allow you to keep it running and set up as you do other steps in the shop. I even made an outfeed table that takes advantage of a router table so it can be used as a saw/shaper type setup....now I have a separate shaper but I do use my saw/router for dadoing and such....

Good luck and you know what country of origin I would point you too! ;-)

Paul

[Chris Fournier]

This fall I made the move from a General 350 cabinet saw, Minimax FS30 J/P with slot mortiser and small General shaper to a Mini Max CU410 Elite S Combo.

I will dearly miss my trusty 350 and all of the dedicated jigs and fixtures that I made for it. If I had the space I would have kept this saw for this reason alone.

The Minmax FS30 with mortiser was brilliant and paid for itself in short order - I simply needed more capacity.

My shaper was too small for my latest projects.

I carefully looked at Hammer/Felder and Minimax. All are well made but the Hammer machines are clearly much lighter. Take a close look at the sheet metal cabinets on the Hammers vs the Minimax - no comparison, the MM is a better build. I wouldn't fault the Hammer for the sheet steel rather than cast iron saw trunion, it's a price point issue.

I liked the Felder units but they fell short in several areas for my tastes. The castings are lighter than the MM castings and the CF 741 S Pro has very short jointer tables. Sure I could buy an accessory outboard table but why? I thought that this was a very poor design. If people are gonna complain about machine changeover times (which is ridiculous) then certainly having to move an auxilliary table all around your machine would be even more aggravating.

Could you go wrong with a Felder? I highly doubt it! Are you gonna pay more for a Felder? I am certain of it! Felder is a private company, they typically build to order. They operate on a different basis that a large publicly held company like SCM. You can buy an equivilent MM machine for far less than a Felder if you are either lucky in your timing or patient and savvy when it comes to buying equipment. I'm talking about brand new of course. Used equipment is a different ball game - lower cost/higher risks.

So I got the MM. Tomato tomahto.

I can tell you honestly that the first time I used the slider for rippping I felt sick to my stomach, I wanted my cabinet saw back right then and there. Nothing like spending a bucket of cash and then not liking the new machine. I knew that this was gonna happen so I took a big Buddha breathe and relaxed, thought about the operation and how the new machine was intended to be used. I still didn't like ripping to the right of the blade manually. Awkward postioning for my body and I'm actually using the dust hood on the blade - never did on the General.

Well this week I had 230 board feet of hard maple to break out into stock for cutting boards and it was time to come to term with the slider. The cross cutting to rough length was a dream! Maybe the slider ain't all bad...

Well the idea of straight line ripping rough stock seemed dangerous and poor form to me but rather than going to the jointer and edging as I have done for the past twenty years I set up the lumber shoe and clamp on the slider and straight line ripped the lot into 2 1/2" billets as the new machine was intended to be used. Hmm, that wasn't too bad either... Actually it was brilliant! I stayed in one position and had one machine setup to do the entire run. I am not afraid of the table saw and would never buy a SS for safety reasons but the slider made me feel like I was completely out of any potential danger - I didn't even have to be touching the wood as it went through the saw. Oh yeah, the lumber was pretty dirty from being out in a gravel woodyard whilst drying. Sure I swept it off but HSS jointer knives will never hold up to contaminates like the carbide ripping blade on the saw. The carbide saw blade also costs 1/2 as much as one of the four carbide knives that my tersa head would require - great value! To make an even finer impression on me, I had no tearout in the hard culry maple that I was ripping straight in one pass. The jointer would have really torn this stuff up - even with multiple light passes.

The long and short of it is that as others have pointed out, if you are going to move to a slider from a cabinet saw you're going to have to rethink and change your methods of work to make the big process gains.

If you're making guitars with a slider, it's unlikely that it will really shine for you (I have to rethink all of my guitar jigs and fixtures dedicated to my dearly departed cabinet saw - crappy). If however you are making a living woodworking and are prepared to take on large sheetgood and/or solids jobs to pay the bills when guitar commissions are scarce then the slider will really allow you to punch over your weight.

On the combo controversy I would have liked to seperate my J/P from the saw/shaper as you can with the Felder, but only for shipping reasons. The combo machine is simply more compact and less expensive to get electricity to than two separate combo units. I am a one man shop so this simplifies things regarding mulitple users.

While you have your suppliers attention buying a large machine, it's time to "negotiate" the price of the slot mortiser that goes with it! Having used a slot mortiser for several years I can tell you that it can pay for itself post haste. It is robust and very easy to set up and can handle very unwieldy stock with ease.

If at all possible, and this is tough, get yourself a planer with a four post planer table mechanism. The rigidity of this setup and the resultant surface quality comapred to a single post unit is hard to believe until you've seen it yourself. Planing endgrain butcher blocks made a believer out of me.

When the money is there get a good power feeder. It is safer, provides you with a superior surface quality and reduces the drudgery of running lots of stock over your jointer, shaper and saw. The Felder branded units are a very good deal in my opinion.

Finally, if you're in the market for a slider and you've looked at the Hammer product, do yourself a favour and look at the comparable SCM Minimax machine. Knowledge is power and in the end you'll like be able to negotiate a better deal for whichever machine you choose if.

[Don Bullock]

I moved to a slider several years ago and I'm not looking back...I love the thing. Yes, there was a learning curve relative to some operations and new ways to perform them, but the precision of these machines is amazing. And the safety factor is also very attractive.

I own a Minimax slider and have been very pleased with it. There are a number of other good manufacturers to consider, some already mentioned in this thread. One thing to consider is to insure that you have the required space available for the slider's wagon (the actual sliding part) to make it's full travel...with material aboard...in the area of your shop where you plan on placing it. My 8'6" slider requires a total of 19' for full travel, for example. Know the specifications of your choice and also consider space needs if your intended machine has a larger cross-cut outrigger.

I remember when Jim switched to a slider. If I was younger at the time and felt comfortable about changing over I would have done that too. At the time I'd never seen a slider and my wife had just given me the OK for a SawStop ICS. I haven't regretted my decision to go ahead with the SawStop, but can sure understand why people like Jim have bought sliders. Jim would be a great person to use as a resource for making your "final" decision.

[Robert Chapman]

I have the Jessem slider and it is a great addition to my Steel City cabinet saw. It is small and does not handle 4X8 sheet goods. It is absolutey accurate once set up accurately. It has a small footprint and no legs to the floor. In cost only $500. Unfortunetly I don't think that Jessem makes them anymore. If you don't need to cut large sheet goods I highly recommend the Jessem.