Putting Boxing on/in Moulding Planes

[David Weaver]

Question for people who have made moulding planes with boxing, and I know this doesn't leave a large group...

.. what is the traditional grain orientation for the boxing in a moulding plane? "Straws" in the wood facing forward, or are they facing backward?

For anyone not initiated, I know that the boxwood was cut askew (i.e., the grain doesn't flow with the cut or perpendicular), but I don't know that I'd trust any of my boxed planes (too modern) to know if they're correct or even if I'll be able to see the direction of the boxing (I don't have the planes handy right now).

Also, woods to use - cocobolo OK? It's not like you can get large sheets of boxwood, and I think i read somewhere that boxwood dust comes with an NPG (cancer) warning, anyway. Any other alternatives, particularly if there's anything with interlocked grain that works well? I have macassar ebony and cocobolo on hand and dry. Both may be a bit splintery for boxing.

Wife wants something that's going to require me to make a beading plane. I have a decent beader to copy, the bead is just too big on it. Be nice to make my own plane, anyway, and get away from trying to find tools for a decent price when I have a need.

Where historical accuracy isn't important (which is the case here), anyone have any qualms about making a sole of the beading plane out of cocobolo glued to QS cherry, QS birch or QS maple? They all have different shrinkage rates, but all are dry. I don't have the tooling to set the bead deep like most planes do (no TS now, but that's not the kind of cut i'd like to make on a TS, anyway), and that would avoid the issue of how to make (the deep narrow dado for) the boxing. The cocobolo could also be set in to the base of the plane via a dado to keep it from moving laterally too much.

[george wilson]

I have made the grain in boxing vertical to the sole of the plane. These days,that means you will have to put the boxing in in several pieces. Boxing is usually narrow strips about 1/8" wide where there is a thin,pointed part(like the peak of the bead). I know there are exceptions. You aren't going to be using the plane extensively,like putting the beading on clapboards on your house,are you? I made beading planes that were used to do that in Williamsburg. Whole houses. But,I did put in boxwood boxing.

I suppose lots of hard woods would do for boxing if they are installed vertically.
I never tried it for wear. Brazilian rosewood doesn't wear well at all for closing the mouths in planes. Actually,white oak might wear better than cocobolo. I'd think that locust would be great. Maybe others will have suggestions for hard woods.

I have said that boxwood is carcinogenic,but then so are many tropical woods(most likely). Certainly cocobolo is bad. I know of 1 guy who went blind for 2 weeks after turning it on a lathe.

Ebony might wear well,but do put any boxing in with the grain vertical.

[David Weaver]

I think I read the NPC (it looks like It's NPC and not NPG) remark on one of the lists that describes toxicity of different woods, but maybe it was from you?

Cocobolo is listed as an extreme sensitizer (the worst I get from it is sneezing), but not for NPC. You never know, though, it could show up a couple of years from now as as a risk for NPC or other cancers, so I don't want to breathe more of it than I have to. I don't really enjoy the sneezing, anyway.

Maybe the reason the boxing was cut on the skew had nothing to do with durability and everything to do with getting a piece long enough?

It's hard to tell how much of the data is important for hobbyists, anyway, like just how toxic occasional exposure might be. Some of the pages say the data is based on a 1920-1960 data set, and the NPC incidence is only 40% higher than the general population. If that's the case, it's probably not that bad. I don't want to get over the top about anything like the hobbyists upstairs buying 1/2 micron dust measuring devices for several hundred dollars and then working in the shop 10 times a year.

[george wilson]

Read my post again. I edited it. No,I thing durability is the issue. Skew? Not sure what that means. I put the boxwood in vertical. Can you get any locust?

[David Weaver]

Read my post again. I edited it. No,I thing durability is the issue. Skew? Not sure what that means. I put the boxwood in vertical. Can you get any locust?

I have a locust log in my garage about 15 inches long and 8 inches in diameter. The wife of a deceased turner gave it to me. I was hoping to never work with it, and am not sure why I kept it :rolleyes:

[Trevor Walsh]

I spoke with Matt Bickford, his boxed planes are done with persimon skewed at 45 degrees and trailing like this

(Toe)\\\\\\\\Mouth\\\\\\\\\(Heel). Make sense?

The only real advantage I can see here is that, in the 90 degree grain orientation you would need to either glue up endgrain slices or find really wide stock. With the skew you can use smaller stock without the need to glue up pieces, or have different pieces for the toe and heel sections.

[David Weaver]

No clapboard, just the beaded panel in the back of some casework.

[David Weaver]

I spoke with Matt Bickford, his boxed planes are done with persimon skewed at 45 degrees and trailing like this (Toe)\\\\\\\\Mouth\\\\\\\\\(Heel). Make sense?

Yeah, askew backwards. Persimmon is also what Larry williams said they use at C&W. Thanks.

[george wilson]

I had thought about persimmon. The old planes had their boxing vertical as far as I can recall,but I haven't made a study of it. Skewing the boxing might make it easier for the first corner to break off at an angle,though it does allow the use of smaller stock.

I made only a few boxed planes as toolmaker,when special needs arose for them,like when the housewrights were building a hand built 2 story kitchen. A rather large structure.

[David Weaver]

Skewing the boxing might make it easier for the first corner to break off at an angle

That's exactly the reason I asked, in case one end broke off more commonly than another if it was oriented the wrong way. Some of my older planes have the boxing snapped off at the back or front, but it was done so long ago and there is wear on it, that I can't tell what caused it. For all I know, they may have been dropped.

[Matt Bickford]

I actually have the grain orientation going in the opposite direction. If the grain were oriented in the fashion illustrated above, the point directly behind the mouth would probably chip off in the process of being made.

This is representative of how I make them.

heel\\\\\\mouth\\\\\\toe.

I use persimmon.

[Trevor Walsh]

Ah, woops. Sorry Matt for misrepresenting your work. I thought they went the other way, but that does make much more sense with the mouth area. Thanks for the correction.

[Matt Bickford]

Here are two pictures. The first picture shows a repair that looks like it may be along the grain lines. It's nearly vertical. The second has the boxing partially removed. I drew pencil lines on the piece that are representative of the angle. It is oriented at approx. 50 degrees with the iron at 55.

http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq44/msbickford/IMG_5161.jpg

http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq44/msbickford/IMG_5160.jpg

[Jason Chestnut]

I'm far from an expert, but I'd swear that Larry Williams states that the grain of the boxing is angled down into the cut on his plane making video. I'd have to double check, but it's at home. I think you lay out roughly 45 degree cuts across a wide, thin piece and apply them end-to-end to the wear areas of the plane sole.

By down into the cut, I mean like Matt Bickford says in his post. Seems that this orientation would provide the hardest-wearing surface to the sole.

ETA: Looks like I'm arguing with myself. :) Everyone seems to agree that it's either vertical or angled down toward the toe.

[David Weaver]

Here are two pictures. The first picture shows a repair that looks like it may be along the grain lines. It's nearly vertical. The second has the boxing partially removed. I drew pencil lines on the piece that are representative of the angle. It is oriented at approx. 50 degrees with the iron at 55.

http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq44/msbickford/IMG_5161.jpg

http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq44/msbickford/IMG_5160.jpg

Matt, thank you for dropping in and clearing that up. That would explain why I have more planes with it snapped off at the back.

[Larry Williams]

I'm far from an expert, but I'd swear that Larry Williams states that the grain of the boxing is angled down into the cut on his plane making video. I'd have to double check, but it's at home. I think you lay out roughly 45 degree cuts across a wide, thin piece and apply them end-to-end to the wear areas of the plane sole.

By down into the cut, I mean like Matt Bickford says in his post. Seems that this orientation would provide the hardest-wearing surface to the sole.

ETA: Looks like I'm arguing with myself. :) Everyone seems to agree that it's either vertical or angled down toward the toe.

I've never seen an old plane with vertical boxing, anyone have one?

I try to work with the properties of the wood and, from all the old planes I've examined, so did the early plane makers. I avoid short grain at the mouth by splitting the difference between the bed and breast angles. I arrange the boxing so that it runs on a bias and a York pitch plane is boxed with the grain at 55º where a middle pitch plane the grain of the boxing runs at 60º.

We use persimmon which is in the ebony family and has wear properties that make it ideal for boxing. I try to keep in touch with the carpenters at Williamsburg because of their heavy use of planes. I've also examined planes after extended use by them. I observed and they agree that persimmon holds up at least as well as true boxwood and significantly better than planes they've had made by others using an African "boxwood" substitute. I'm not sure if grain orientation might not have been an additional factor in the poor performance of the African "boxwood."

[David Weaver]

I cannot find persimmon at a reasonable price in a suitable quantity, and I forgot that I have some kingwood left over from something I bought several years ago, it is long since dried. The way it planes, I think it will make good durable boxing, and it doesn't have offensive open pores.

I might be inclined to find something closer to the color of boxwood if I cared about historical accuracy, but I don't.

Larry - thanks for the discussion and description of why the angles are what they are.

[Paul Davis]

I just bought some persimmon from Jim Walsh, the kcwoodbutcher, in Kansas City. He operates a bandsaw mill and kiln in his backyard. It's a treat going over there and standing around in the piles of unusual wood. I go to get one little board of something, and drive home with a pickup load. Last time I needed a hunk of 8/4 walnut for table legs, and ended up with ~60bf of walnut, ~40bf of QS sycamore, a slab of hornbeam, and a little persimmon to try out. I think he asked for $80.

I had to resist looking too closely at the several hundred BF of cherry. Running out of places to put it.

[george wilson]

As I said in post #9,I only ever made a few boxed planes,and never made a study of boxing. I don't currently own any planes with boxing,so can't even look at any.

I'm sure Larry is correct. He is a wooden plane specialist. I am not. I had to make a large variety of incidental tools along the way,any thing from saws to embroidery tools,surgical knives,etc.. It was not possible

with deadlines and time constraints to get into detailed studies on one or two tools on special order.

It was not an easy position to be in having to make,and invent ways to make any kind of tools and equipment that the whole museum would come up with.At least I got to do many different things. I never liked mass production. If all I ever got to do was make planes or saws all the time,I think I would just have killed myself. My wife can produce hundreds of pieces of a jewelry line. I cannot. Too creative. I'll make her a model. She will take it and run with it for hundreds of pieces(she makes most of her models now).

[Jason Chestnut]

Would Osage Orange be a suitable substitute for boxwood or persimmon if you could find it in wide enough pieces?

[David Weaver]

Not sure. The osage I've worked with has been somewhat stringy and tearout prone.

Anything would probably be fine as long as it can be steamed and removed for replacement from the bottom of the plane.

[David Weaver]

One last question for the knowledgable - these beaders are probably done (or at least were historically done) by mother planes.

Since I don't have a mother plane, I'm assuming I can just cut a scratch stock, roll a burr on it and cut the bottom of this plane, and probably before I cut the mouth, as opposed to the other way around with an H&R.

[David Keller NC]

David - I've made a few custom molding planes (certainly not nearly as many as others on this thread), but here's my take on your dilemma:

I wouldn't try to cut the sole of a molder solely with a scratch stock. I do use a custom-profiled scraper to "clean up" various molding profiles, but using them solely to cut the profile may result in a less-than-straight bed along the length of the plane, which is critical to its performance.

Regarding boxing - What Larry and Matt note about the orientation of boxing is correct - their observations fit just about all of the 150+ antique molding planes with boxing that I have. That said, I wouldn't worry about the species or orientation all that much. The simple reason is that you're probably not building a plane that's intended to last for a workman's working lifetime, and there are lots and lots of molding planes out there with pretty narrow profiles that don't have any boxing at all, and they're still usable. A bead is a bit of an exception because of the quirk, which will wear very quickly without boxing - but again, if you're making this for a one-time special application, it may not matter.

Also, regarding beads - hollows and rounds are more common, but side-beads are the next most commonly found molding plane. They are everywhere, and are pretty cheap unless found in complete, one-owner, one-manufacturer sets. Even if your plane turns out to be less-than-ideal from the standpoint of boxing, you can always purchase a side-bead in the size that you need, probably for less than $20 at a flea market.

[David Weaver]

David - I've made a few custom molding planes (certainly not nearly as many as others on this thread), but here's my take on your dilemma:

I wouldn't try to cut the sole of a molder solely with a scratch stock. I do use a custom-profiled scraper to "clean up" various molding profiles, but using them solely to cut the profile may result in a less-than-straight bed along the length of the plane, which is critical to its performance.

Regarding boxing - What Larry and Matt note about the orientation of boxing is correct - their observations fit just about all of the 150+ antique molding planes with boxing that I have. That said, I wouldn't worry about the species or orientation all that much. The simple reason is that you're probably not building a plane that's intended to last for a workman's working lifetime, and there are lots and lots of molding planes out there with pretty narrow profiles that don't have any boxing at all, and they're still usable. A bead is a bit of an exception because of the quirk, which will wear very quickly without boxing - but again, if you're making this for a one-time special application, it may not matter.

Also, regarding beads - hollows and rounds are more common, but side-beads are the next most commonly found molding plane. They are everywhere, and are pretty cheap unless found in complete, one-owner, one-manufacturer sets. Even if your plane turns out to be less-than-ideal from the standpoint of boxing, you can always purchase a side-bead in the size that you need, probably for less than $20 at a flea market.

I agree on the beads, I figure it'll be good experience to make them, though, just because it should take about 5 or so hours to throw one together, and if I got one that had a dud iron in it, it would take take a while to rehabilitate the iron.

I maybe was a little flippant in how I was describing the scratch stock. I envison something that references the side of the plane and holds the scratch stock, sort of a tool to make a tool kind of thing.

I'm thinking of making the beading plane for this instance, but I'm hoping it will be a permanent tool. I have found beads for less than $20, some good, some not so good. I saw a set last year of mixed makers for $60 for 6, all with decent boxing and irons, that would've been the logical choice were I looking to minimize work, but I like making tools as much as (more actually) than making furniture, so any time I get a chance and the wife isn't screaming for something right away....thus this thread.

I won't detail the construction since it would basically be ripping off Larry williams' video, which is the only reason I know how to make hollows and rounds to begin with, but I will show the finished product when I get done.

[Matt Bickford]

You won't be able to make the sole with a round. A round won't be able to cut the full 180 degrees that will be needed.

You definitely want the quirk boxed. The quirk will probably be half gone by the time you're done sharpening it that first time if it's riding long grain.

Your best bet may be buying a fluting bit for a router table. I know, I know...

[David Weaver]

I'm not opposed to using the router to make tools. At the suggestion of a power tool afficianado, when I first started working wood, I put one of the porter cable locomotives in a table, and it's still sitting there...under my miter box. Used once in four years. I couldn't easily find a router bit for the profile or that would've been idea number one front and center. I maybe need to look a little longer.

The problem you described (with a round) is exactly why I figured I'd need to make a special scratch stock out in a carrier to do the job. May deter me from using kingwood for the boxing if I do that, though - I haven't scratched any kingwood to full depth, but it can't be that rewarding to do that.

I'd rather use a router if i can find a quirked bead bit without a bearing.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Of course, if you don't plan on making more molding/beading planes, tooling up will definitely cost more time and money than buying a single beader. You know that, I'm sure, so enjoy.

As to woods, I can think of several candidates: desert ironwood, kashi (Japanese white oak), and Hon red oak. In the case of the latter two, you could buy plane blanks and cut off pieces as needed.

Pam

[David Weaver]

I'm sure I'll be making more. the first one probably won't turn out the way I want (especially cosmetically) and once you learn how to make them, you might as well turn a few out. The nice thing about moulding planes is you can turn out a pair in the weekend once you have the process the way you want. I'm looking forward to the day that I can send off all of my "store bought" moulding planes. Most of them are filled with compromises.

A very generous person offered me some persimmon to get the ball rolling, and I think I may be able to get a hold of some more shortly to set aside for future planes.

Aside from the persimmon, I think I have everything on hand. Enough steel for two dozen plane irons, a jig to put a light taper on the irons (they are a bear to get out of a plane without it), plenty of thick saw scrap to make a scratch stock. Coming up with the cash for the floats and a considerable amount of 8/4 and larger quartersawn stock was a boatload of money, though, but thankfully water under the bridge now.

the only thing I'm missing is a TS to cut the slot for boxing, but I can come up with something that will cut it deep enough even if it's not as deep as it would be ideally.

What is desert ironwood, does it go by another name?

[Pam Niedermayer]

...What is desert ironwood, does it go by another name?

Yeah, but I've forgotten. Here's a good page about it: http://woodenuknow.com/desertironwood.html

The woman who wrote about its toxicity, Judith Mattart the Lumber Lady, was my supplier; but she died a few years ago. Terry Gordon of HNT also bought his ironwood from Judith, made most of his planes from it at the time.

Also thought of another potentially cheap source of boxwood (aside from old tools with no/bad blades) might be boxwood rules.

Pam

[george wilson]

The grain in the rules wouldn't be going in a suitable direction,though. There are a few companies where you can get boxwood,like Gilmer.

[Cliff Ober]

David, I'm working on a pair of snipe's bills; I've used vera wood for the boxing (the stuff Rockler sells as lignum). I have it oriented at 45* toward the toe.

I had real good luck using a slotting bit in the router table, but next time I will put the boxing strip in before cutting the plane blank to shape. I've used walnut for the body and I'd hoped it would work well enough for the profile edge, but no-go. It was chipping right from the start.

Since the "lignum" boxing was a retrofit, I had to make a jig to hold the plane body at the correct angle to the slotting bit. It's probably not exactly the traditional way to do it, but it worked very well. I've reshaped the profile and can now move on to finish the details of the plane and shape the blade.

Cliff

[greg Forster]

I have a 3' section of Persimmon log about 10" dia. ; the black heartwood section is too small to be of any use, is the whitewood Ok to try for boxing or would I just be waswting time and effort?

[Larry Williams]

Greg,
I've never seen full black persimmon. The color runs from dark olive to a creamy tan. We use it all but avoid mixing color as much as possible. Quartered wood is what you want.