Design Critique Needed

[Linda Persoon]

I'm fairly new to turning - mostly having done bowls. Now, I'm taking a stab at hollow forms. I've made a couple of urns for family pets. While I was pleased with the outcome of the first 2, this one is just not right to my eye. I'm not sure why. Any help/opinions are welcomed.

The cherry turned very well and is hollowed to 3/8" thickness. The cherry is 10" tall, 5.25" at the widest point, 3" at the top, and presently the bottom is 3", but I had planned on having it 2" before removing from the turning plate.

The lid is walnut: 3" base, 1.5" tall.

I'm thinking one problem might be the simplicity of design with relatively straight forward wood "pattern". Could be the height is just too tall for the width.

I think it could be salvaged as a lamp - then I would make a base from what remains for added weight.

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Linda, I know there are others who will approach this from the perspective of proper form so I will come from a different direction. Having been in the Funeral Services Industry for over 20 years I can tell you there is no standard for Memorialization Urns. The important thing with an urn is that it is sufficient to contain the volume of cremated remains that you are memorializing. and that it speaks of the person or animal using it. The form of the vessel can be very traditional or very artistic depending on what you want the urn to project or say. While this form is unusual it is no more unusual than many very high priced urns I have seen and sold. If you want it to be "Normal or even Traditional" then you will probably not be interested in having the urn reflect the life of the inhabitant. A proper urn is only powerful in it's presentation when it tells something of the life lived. I used to tell my students that they had a choice, they could choose to be "Markers of Graves" or "Memorializers of Lives". Even as a turner of Memorialization I would ask you, do you choose to be in proper form or do you want to impact the hearts of the loved ones who are looking to bring honor and a fitting tribute to the one they have lost? Now, look at your work again, see what it is saying. Once you can hear, then you can know.

[Bill Bulloch]

Linda, Check this web site out for help with design. http://www.woodturner-russ.com/Design-2.html

[David E Keller]

I don't have any insight into the traditional urn form or even common variations. From a purely aesthetic point, the shoulder of the form seems a bit low to me. I hope it turns out the way you want it to.

[Harlan Coverdale]

You've done a good job, but you're right about having room for improvement. I agree with David about the location of the shoulder. I also notice that the bottom half below the shoulder appears to be flat, or nearly flat, along much of its length. The curve from the rim to the base doesn't seem to flow as smoothly as it could. If the curve was made to be more of a catenary curve, the location of the shoulder wouldn't be as critical.

[Duff Bement]

Hey Guys lets all welcome my S.I.L to the Creek.
She has only been turning a while but does outstanding work.:):)

If what Chris say's is true it should be shaped like a tennis ball or or a Frisbee. :D

Congrats and welcome on your FIRST post on the CREEK sis.

PS:It does kinda look like a missile.:D

[John Keeton]

Welcome to the creek, Linda!!! Always good to have another turner in the group. I have never done an urn, but would suspect that all general principles of form apply. In that regard, I would suggest you check the galleries of some of the creekers for some ideas.

Not a bad start here, and you have enough wood to make some minor tweaks.

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Hey Guys lets all welcome my S.I.L to the Creek.
She has only been turning a while but does outstanding work.:):)

If what Chris say's is true it should be shaped like a tennis ball or or a Frisbee. :D

Congrats and welcome on your FIRST post on the CREEK sis.

PS:It does kinda look like a missile.:DLinda , please forgive my overlooking the fact that you are brand new to the Creek. Welcome to the Abyss, it is good to have you. My passion about this subject sometimes gets the best of me. I just see some special things in your work. I think Duff may have actually gotten the point. I'm looking forward to your future work.

[David E Keller]

Welcome... I'm afraid I didn't notice that it was your first post, Linda. I hope it's the first of many!:D

[Michael James]

Hi Linda! Welcome from NM. Where are you located?
I think Christopher's profound comments obviously have merit in the design dept. If you're going for a standard, or "classic" shape I suppose it's easy to see where you're on, and where you're off. I think it will require practice, at least for me, to get the subtle nuances to your liking.
Orb's can be turned, and so can frisbee shapes... heck if it's round... it's doable. I vote go with the shape that speaks to you.
Best of luck, and happy turning!
Michael
(lifelong dog people:D)

[Jon Behnke]

Welcome Linda. The link that Bill suggested is very good, Russ is a wealth of good information. Looking at the piece I would say that the widest point is to low. If you figure the piece in thirds and make the widest point at 2/3's of the way up you will see a big difference.

[Roger Bullock]

Hi Linda and welcome to the creek. You have found a great forum with many good turners you can turn to for advice. Since I turn pens, bottle stoppers, and other odds and ins, I can't offer you much advice other than to look at some of the other creekers projects. You can do this several ways. 1 is to click on a person's name and click view their gallery or 2 select search (above tool bar) and search an individual or subject.
I don't say this to be disrespectful of your turning, but to me if you look at it sideways, it kind of looks like a bomb you would drop from an airplane.:o I agree with the others that the shoulder should be higher about 1/3 down from the top.

[Curt Fuller]

Welcome Linda!

I think what you don't like is that the you've broken the rule of thirds, probably without knowing it even existed. Somewhere way back in time somebody figured out that our brains are hard wired to like things broken into thirds. What your Urn has is a break almost exactly in the center. In other words, the widest point, where it changes directions is just about the middle. If you design it to be widest at or near 1/3 of the way down from the top or 1/3 up from the bottom it will usually be more pleasing to the eye. There's a lot of info about the rule of thirds if you google either 'rule of thirds' or 'golden mean'. All rules are meant to be broken and this one is no different. But in the case of you urn, I think the principles of the rule would help the appearance.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Welcome to SMC Linda. It is good to have you with us. Lots of good people and lots of good knowledge.

You have gotten some good advice. I agree that the shoulder is a little low. Keep'em coming.

[Bob Haverstock]

Hi Linda,

Thank you for posting a photo of the urn. I enjoy turning urns and lids. Typically, I turn shapes that appeal to me, so I'm reluctant to comment about other turners work.

The shape is interesting, but for me the foot doesn't blend in. I would consider reducing the height and the diameter of the foot. I might turn the foot's base diameter off completely, continuing the taper, not reducing the urn's height and and add a walnut foot of smaller diameter. Thet would change the proportions of the design and accent the urn's height. I might consider adding banana shaped flutes to the walnut base.

Anyhow, turn for your own enjoyment and you will always enjoy.

Bob Haverstock

[Richard Madden]

Welcome Linda, this is a great place here, hope you show more of your work. Like you're reading here about 1/3 down, or 2/3 up, it's all well and true, and you can keep that in mind on your next one, but something I've noticed is sometimes a customer is not aware of this, they purchase what is pleasing to their eye, and you have a nice pleasing curve going here. Great effort on your part. Keep em coming!

[Linda Persoon]

I sure appreciate all your comments. I'm working on a re-design & might be able to salvage this for an urn.

As soon as I put the top on and stood it up, I was so disappointed. Texted BI-L, Duff. about it looking like a "missile". O.K. maybe a torpedo. Just wasn't what I envisioned. And certainly wasn't going to work for an urn once I had that thought.

I've drawn up the changes I'm intended, but will be away from the lathe this weekend. I'll post later to show you how it comes out. Will also post a bit about me with a picture of something much more pleasing.

So excited to have a group to share turning. I'm in a rural area of NE Washington state. So I haven't had too much contact with others. Although whenever Duff & I get together, we hide out in the shop.

Later, Linda

[Roland Martin]

Welcome to the Creek, Linda. I think you'll find everybody here extremely helpful and a pleasure to share with. Beware of the Vortex though, it will drain you of all your money and leave your brain only "spinny" thoughts:eek::D

[David DeCristoforo]

Welcome, Linda. As a "padawan learner" myself, I really don't feel all that qualified to instruct anyone on any aspect of turning. But as a designer/maker with more years behind me than ahead of me (unless I live to be 120+!), I do have something to contribute. There is a reason classic forms are "classic". They are based on ergonomics and "human scale". The basis for this concept is the human form as expressed in the famous drawings of daVinci. There are some very complex mathematical formulas available on the web (this WIKI page for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio) but it can be simply put as a ratio of 1:1.625 or 1:1 5/8 (this is not precise but it's "close enough"). The "rule of thirds" also approximates the golden mean.

In this case this would mean that your hollow form shoulder should be located at a distance of 2/3 of the total height from (the bottom), the diameter of the base should be 1/3 of the diameter of the shoulder, etc.

The problem with rules is that for every rule, the number of exceptions is equal to or greater than the total number of rules. Many of the most interesting forms break all the rules. Sometimes someone gets lucky and by pure accident, hits a "sweet spot" that breaks every rule in the book. But more often than not, you will find that the makers of these objects are well versed in the classic concepts. What I am trying to say is that you would be better to conform, at least to some extent, to the "rules" until you have developed a solid understanding of the principals involved. Then your variations will be based more on knowledge than luck and the outcome is much more likely to be successful.

Some people have an innate sense of "good design". Others need to develop that sense. There are many technically masterful artisans who have absolutely no sense of design. Their work is stunning in its execution but does nothing for the spirit. Others make crude, rustic pieces that you just can't take your eye away from. The difference is in the understanding of form. It can be very elusive. Subtile variations in line and proportion can make or break a design.

[Baxter Smith]

Welcome to the turners forum. Its a very helpful and interesting place to spend your spare time.... when you're not turning.:)

[George Guadiane]

Welcome to the SMC Vortex Linda,
Everyone else has said what needs saying about form, including you.
You mentioned being disappointed when you took it off the lathe. That is one of the things that I do to see if I'm on the right track. I set pieces upright to see how they will "really" look. I find that it often really helps.

[charlie knighton]

Linda, welcome to the creek, enjoy

decide what you do not like about the form, alter your next one, decide what you do not like about that one, alter your next one

continue to grow

[Mark Hubl]

Linda welcome aboard. I really can't add much to what has been said. If you don't "save" it as an urn chalk it up to experience or make something more whimsical with it.

[Larry Marley]

Hi Linda,
Welcome to SMC!

I took creative license and tweaked your form.
I cut away a little at the widest point to move it a little higher.
Then cut away the lower 2/3 to bring the curve top to bottom and tried to take away a little weight at the base to lift it up.
I only did this to the right side and mirrored it.
just my 2 cents.

Larry