Tell it like it is!

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I just put this up in another thread about a jointer, but it seemed like a thread-jack...so new thread coming out!

Writing about tools, their pros/con, the company's that make, sell, deliver, and repair them is one the great reasons to look at a woodworking forum! This seems to get lost...usually about the time the thread is 20 posts long. Someone starts taking it personally...respect me? Then respect my tool choices!

Love your table saw and someones always right there to say its "not all that" or "something else is better for my money"...say, "this company is jerking me around"... and get ready to be accused of whining.

Stories of other peoples' experiences is just that, sometimes a cautionary tale is more interesting to read (or maybe more valuable) than a praise, sometimes just the opposite.

When I am working through a purchase decision on a tool I want to see it all! Bring on the whining!!! And, bring on the high praise. I'll decide on balance where it fits in my research. The consumer marketplace is way better now that internet lets us hear about the range of experiences out there.

BTW...this post is both a praise (for SMC!) and a whine (about those who would censor others).

tastes great! Less filling!

[Chris Nolin]

Here here!

[Russell Smallwood]

Well said Matt.

I think any reasonable person looks for trends and not individual instances. I've not had a bad experience with any of the tools I've purchased in the last 20 years but I'm sure I could find someone who has.

Sometimes the biggest impression is made by how a company deals with adversity rather than how much it does to avoid it.

This doesn't in any way refer specifically to any one on this board or any particular post / thread / poster or topic but, I know that there are people in this world who will never be happy. There are also people who can't admit when they're wrong, people who don't acknowledge their own mistakes and people who think that everyone, by default, has a no questions asked return policy.

There are also people who are way too forgiving and keep it to themselves when they've been duped.

That being said, there are companies that are run by bean counters, companies that are on the verge of going out of business and don't have the money to provide customer service, and companies that try to sell to markets they have no intention of servicing just for a little extra profit.

I guess what I'm saying is that we live in a Buyer AND Seller-beware economy. We may all have to change our expectations a little if we all want to continue to get quality merchandise at rock-bottom prices and/or sell directly to a vast marketplace that may fall outside of your comfort zone.

So, like you, I take all the reviews, praises, gripes, rants and general observations with a heavy dose of salt.

[Dave Lehnert]

I can't speak for everyone but as far as "this company is jerking me around"... and get ready to be accused of whining. The only beef I have It seemspeople with a problem are just signing up on sawmill to complain. Taking advantage of the fact that the President is a member of this group.

I do give a lot of respect to a member who has a complaint that participates in other woodworking posts.

It's a two way street. One may think a company is jerking them around. Another member will defend that company because he has been treated well. Not sure how you avoid that.

[Will Overton]

I don't think you should have said that.
http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/roflmao.gif
http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/roflmao.gif
http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/roflmao.gif

[Bill Edwards(2)]

Good post!

If you'd have posted a kitty, you'd have probably got a butt whuppin'

http://www.unclebill.us/cats/calm.gif

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Matt, I'm not sure what to say about your comment regarding censorship.

I hope you're not referring to the fact that this forum is moderated, since I feel that's one of the reasons it's such a pleasant place to spend some time.

The other reason of course is that the people who participate are so nice and helpful.

I don't have any machinery complaints, I previously owned 4 pieces of General equipment, that were replaced with 2 pieces of Hammer equipment.

Both companies make excellent equipment, and provide excellent in home repair and service. Absolutely nothing to complain about.

I also bought an Oneida cyclone, great equipment once again.

I guess you can hear from people who have nothing but horror stories, and from people from me who nothing but good things to say about the equipment they purchased.

You're correct, it is nice to have the Internet to share stories.

Regards, Rod.

[Mark Bolton]

Bring on the whining!!! And, bring on the high praise. I'll decide on balance where it fits in my research.

I agree, just have to remember to calibrate for the old adage of a dissatisfied customer tells ten people and a satisfied customer tells one (or sometimes none).

Its said here many times that more need to praise good companies and probably more do on forums like this than anywhere else but its still a whisper in the crowd of complaining.

It would be easy to simply not be able to buy a single anything if you research on the internet because basically everything has negative feedback from someone.

Mark

[Russell Smallwood]

I can't speak for everyone but as far as "this company is jerking me around"... and get ready to be accused of whining. The only beef I have It seemspeople with a problem are just signing up on sawmill to complain. Taking advantage of the fact that the President is a member of this group.

I do give a lot of respect to a member who has a complaint that participates in other woodworking posts.

It's a two way street. One may think a company is jerking them around. Another member will defend that company because he has been treated well. Not sure how you avoid that.

Being the president of a machinery manufacturer and monitoring this board is a two-way street also, there are benefits to be realized as a result of doing so. I've become a big fan by reading his posts and have purchased some stuff as a result, however, you're bound to get the one-and-done posts from people who feel they can have a direct line. It's the price of the marketing feedback and goodwill that is generated by participating in this forum.

Personally, I respect the risk that is taken by having such an intimate relationship with part of your market (and probably the part that is the most difficult and expensive to satisfy).

[greg a bender]

I agree, just have to remember to calibrate for the old adage of a dissatisfied customer tells ten people and a satisfied customer tells one (or sometimes none).

Its said here many times that more need to praise good companies and probably more do on forums like this than anywhere else but its still a whisper in the crowd of complaining.

It would be easy to simply not be able to buy a single anything if you research on the internet because basically everything has negative feedback from someone.

Mark

Isn't that the truth! If I went only from reviews (especially from Amazon), I would never buy anything.
There seems to be a growing group of people that do nothing other than "review" stuff. Does anyone know if the reviewer really has bought the item? Or are they just wanting their "15 Minutes of fame" by trashing a product they may or may not have ever seen or used?

I live in a remote area of NJ (yes, they do exist:p) and can not touch and feel an item before I buy. So I do read reviews, and I take them with a grain of salt. Seems like everyone anymore has an axe to grind. But I do still have a mind, and I'm not afraid to use it!;)

GB

[Russell Smallwood]

Isn't that the truth! If I went only from reviews (especially from Amazon), I would never buy anything.
There seems to be a growing group of people that do nothing other than "review" stuff. Does anyone know if the reviewer really has bought the item? Or are they just wanting their "15 Minutes of fame" by trashing a product they may or may not have ever seen or used?

I live in a remote area of NJ (yes, they do exist:p) and can not touch and feel an item before I buy. So I do read reviews, and I take them with a grain of salt. Seems like everyone anymore has an axe to grind. But I do still have a mind, and I'm not afraid to use it!;)

GB


And don't think for a minute that there aren't scads of marketing interns out there finding new ways to post realistic sounding "reviews" that say just the right things to make you feel warm and fuzzy about something without giving away the fact that they've never used the product.

[Mike Heidrick]

My sig line is fitting here.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Matt,

Were you aware that you can be held responsible for libellous statements on the Internet and SawMillCreek has received threats of law suits by manufacturers for allowing threads with unproven allegations to go on too long? Don't take my word. Ask Keith Outten owner/administrator.

Believe me every argument that can come up about this subject has been discussed for many hours in the Moderators Forum.

While some may find this hard to believe, Moderators don't enjoy editing or moving threads. We catch enough subtle "jabs" and some not so subtle from members about it when we take one of those actions.

The Terms Of Service that all members acknowledge when they join states you can complain but you must present factual pertinent supportive information for your complaint. That means we aren't going to allow you to run to every thread that a company is mentioned in or any thread that customer service is mentioned in and give a generic rant.

Believe me....Moderators are invited unpaid volunteers. We aren't on the payroll of Festool, Grizzly, SMC or any of the advertisers here.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Isn't that the truth! If I went only from reviews (especially from Amazon), I would never buy anything.
There seems to be a growing group of people that do nothing other than "review" stuff. Does anyone know if the reviewer really has bought the item? Or are they just wanting their "15 Minutes of fame" by trashing a product they may or may not have ever seen or used?

I live in a remote area of NJ (yes, they do exist:p) and can not touch and feel an item before I buy. So I do read reviews, and I take them with a grain of salt. Seems like everyone anymore has an axe to grind. But I do still have a mind, and I'm not afraid to use it!;)

GB

As far as tool purchasing and support go... It has been my experience that ALL OF NJ is remote. I have driven far and wide to kick a few cast iron tires.

And you know what...I really don't care if all they do is sign up to grind their axe. Yeah they might be a shill for competitor company or their own or a disgruntled employee ...or you know what....maybe they're just a really (insert you expletive of choice here) lousy] woodworker who doesn't know the difference between a steak knife and riving knife! We will never know. But some other keyboard jockey calling another creeker a whiner or a dupe will only have the effect of cowing a less confident forum member into hesitating before contributing. Grind away I say!

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Matt,

Were you aware that you can be held responsible for libellous statements on the Internet and SawMillCreek has received threats of law suits by manufacturers for allowing threads with unproven allegations to go on too long? Don't take my word. Ask Keith Outten owner/administrator.

Believe me every argument that can come up about this subject has been discussed for many hours in the Moderators Forum.

While some may find this hard to believe, Moderators don't enjoy editing or moving threads. We catch enough subtle "jabs" and some not so subtle from members about it when we take one of those actions.

The Terms Of Service that all members acknowledge when they join states you can complain but you must present factual pertinent supportive information for your complaint. That means we aren't going to allow you to run to every thread that a company is mentioned in or any thread that customer service is mentioned in and give a generic rant.

Believe me....Moderators are invited unpaid volunteers. We aren't on the payroll of Festool, Grizzly, SMC or any of the advertisers here.

When I called "censorship" it was not about moderators...the mods are great.

No, I'm talking about one creeker telling another creeker that their experiences are not valid because its not a shared experience. I went to a movie and hated it, another poster saw the same movie loved it...guess what we both may be right. or wrong. And sharing the reasons we loved or hated it is exactly in the spirit of what you quote from the Terms of Service. But I have read a lot of threads lately where somebody lays out a bad experience factually and someone else jumps in to call them a whiner. Similarly I have seen plenty of posts where someone is extolling all the virtues of a new toy (tool), only to have some other creeker come along and tell everybody to break up the love-fest.

I personally find that when I am devouring a thread about a tool...and its relative technical merits and drawbacks...someone drops the word "whiner" or "love-fest" ...and the real discussion just became DOA.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Opinion is just that. One person's opinion. Going back to Roman times, a "Forum" is a place to discuss matters. By its use of vBulletin, SMC is a Forum. Its users generate all the content, and it seems the majority of that content is respected. Occasionally, people will take an unusually high or low road, and moderation usually brings the discussion back to the mainstream.

Now that said, opinions are personal. SMC provides a platform to voice those opinions. It seems to me though that a modicum of perspective is required.

As an example, I love Weber grills, I have 4 of them. I've had them for the last 20 years or so, and I think the sun shines out of their ashpans. I look at the $20 grills in front of Kroger with disdain. They're utterly worthless. They're made of pathetically thin steel, painted surfaces, oddly shaped rounded-square design, thin, flexible grill plates, yadda yadda. I wouldn't inflict one as a gag gift on somebody. But then if I had never grilled before, I would spend $20 and see if it was OK. I'd quickly learn that I needed a better grill. I know that now, 20 years on. Conversely, my colleague has a couple of Big Green Eggs. He looks down his nose at my Webers, and rightly so. But then he has well north of $2000 invested in his Big Green Eggs.(Much less than I have in my shop :) ) I get great results from my Webers, and he gets outstanding results from his. Then we have our other work colleague who just likes grilled burgers. Whether I bring my Weber in or Greg brings his Big Green Egg.

A matter of perspective.

[Roger Bullock]

My hats off to SMC and the Moderators for keeping control of such a great forum. We all come to this site by choice and when we comment on a thread we are to follow the rules of SMC. If someone does not agree with the rules it is simple....go somewhere else. And by the way, becoming a contributor is well worth the few dollars for all that we receive here.

[Stephen Cherry]

My hats off to SMC and the Moderators for keeping control of such a great forum. We all come to this site by choice and when we comment on a thread we are to follow the rules of SMC. If someone does not agree with the rules it is simple....go somewhere else. And by the way, becoming a contributor is well worth the few dollars for all that we receive here.

I fully agree, this is a well moderated forum- I've been reading for a long while, posting for a short while, and can't think of any threads that have degenerated. I've thought many times about starting a thread expressing my feelings about Powermatic tools tilting to the left, but haven't done it.

[Neil Brooks]

I've thought many times about starting a thread expressing my feelings about Powermatic tools tilting to the left, but haven't done it.

I think that whole left tilt/right tilt thing is about 75% personal preference ;)

[Van Huskey]

I think that whole left tilt/right tilt thing is about 75% personal preference ;)


It is all about the shims...

[Darius Ferlas]

Matt,

Were you aware that you can be held responsible for libellous statements on the Internet and SawMillCreek has received threats of law suits by manufacturers for allowing threads with unproven allegations to go on too long? Don't take my word. Ask Keith Outten owner/administrator.
I am not surprised with the first part but surprised with the second. Why would SMC be responsible for such claims? I guess we could then sue any city of someone makes a libelous statement while standing on one of the city's sidewalks. Would an Internet company be a part of such possible lawsuit for allowing the undesired statements to be transmitted through their network? Just boggles my mind - the litigation society we have become.

As for the manufacturers, most of those who survive cannot be that bad. Actually I think just a few are survivors if we remember no to confuse a label that could but just one of many owned by the same company.

In reviews I discard opinions that isolated in their extreme negativity, especially, those along the line of "it doesn't match my decor therefore it sucks". I also ignore those lone posts attempting to paint a halo over a given product. As of the last year and a bit this forum is one of the best sources of tool reviews.

[Karl Brogger]

Were you aware that you can be held responsible for libellous statements on the Internet and SawMillCreek has received threats of law suits by manufacturers for allowing threads with unproven allegations to go on too long? Don't take my word. Ask Keith Outten owner/administrator.

A guy on Sailing Anarchy said something about some high profile, jerk attorney and is getting sued for it. Sadly nothing he said was untrue.

But, Sailing Anarchy has one rule, don't bother a moderator. There is no editing, no disappearing threads. No one cares about a "heated discussion", or whether some bodies feeling got hurt. Its a rough place, not for the weak, and it is one of the best forums on the internet. Successful enough that they have people on the payroll covering events. It has gone from forum to a real media outlet.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Darius,

I believe they would indicate the staff here was capable of controlling the length of exposure caused by the thread. Keith would have to respond as he was directly involved in that one.

Did you notice I said threats were made.....I didn't indicate the law suit had merit or that the company would win in court. But....if SawMillCreek went bankrupt and closed the doors defending themselves, it wouldn't matter if the law suit had merit.

The point is the threats have been made.

I personally have been contacted by one individual who wanted an address for legal papers service for a lawsuit he planned on filing over what he perceived as unsafe advice being given at this website.

Beyond that it is imperative to consider the power of the Internet and websites. This is not a local paper with a publication in the low thousands where someone is writing in to the editorial section to express a point of view......or a much larger newspaper with a relatively larger numbers of subscribers. This website is open for the entire world to view. It would be greatly unfair to any manufacturer to allow ranting threads to continue if the claims are not supported by factual information. Such threads would be terribly unfair in the face of the current economical climate around the entire world. No individual or company should have to suffer based on an unfounded, unsupported post.

[Karl Brogger]

I personally have been contacted by one individual who wanted an address for legal papers service for a lawsuit he planned on filing over what he perceived as unsafe advice being given at this website.


Wow. Working for a living is getting rough eh? Gotta love our legal system that allows people to hit the lawsuit lottery.

I hope it was my scoring with a dado saw post.

Furthermore, how could you prove something was actually safe, or unsafe?

[Darius Ferlas]

Did you notice I said threats were made.....I didn't indicate the law suit had merit or that the company would win in court. But....if SawMillCreek went bankrupt and closed the doors defending themselves, it wouldn't matter if the law suit had merit.

I did certainly notice that and the wrangling like that is even worse as companies think the with of their legal teams' financial resources is enough to bully those with far lesser means. That alone is a de facto defeat of the Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/Section%20230%20of%20the%20Communications%20Decenc y%20Act) which is clear about lack of responsibility of forum owners for posts by 3rd parties.

The fragment of my post you referred to was just a general sigh at the general state of affairs.

[Callan Campbell]

Opinion is just that. One person's opinion. Going back to Roman times, a "Forum" is a place to discuss matters. By its use of vBulletin, SMC is a Forum. Its users generate all the content, and it seems the majority of that content is respected. Occasionally, people will take an unusually high or low road, and moderation usually brings the discussion back to the mainstream.

Now that said, opinions are personal. SMC provides a platform to voice those opinions. It seems to me though that a modicum of perspective is required.

As an example, I love Weber grills, I have 4 of them. I've had them for the last 20 years or so, and I think the sun shines out of their ashpans. I look at the $20 grills in front of Kroger with disdain. They're utterly worthless. They're made of pathetically thin steel, painted surfaces, oddly shaped rounded-square design, thin, flexible grill plates, yadda yadda. I wouldn't inflict one as a gag gift on somebody. But then if I had never grilled before, I would spend $20 and see if it was OK. I'd quickly learn that I needed a better grill. I know that now, 20 years on. Conversely, my colleague has a couple of Big Green Eggs. He looks down his nose at my Webers, and rightly so. But then he has well north of $2000 invested in his Big Green Eggs.(Much less than I have in my shop :) ) I get great results from my Webers, and he gets outstanding results from his. Then we have our other work colleague who just likes grilled burgers. Whether I bring my Weber in or Greg brings his Big Green Egg.

A matter of perspective.
I have two charcoal Webers, one Gas Grill Weber, and one Big Green Egg. They're all different, each has its good and weak points, but if I had to toss one in the back of my truck to go somewhere to grill, you have to believe it's the charcoal Webers to the rescue. Those Eggs are too heavy to throw around.....:D:D;)

[Van Huskey]

No individual or company should have to suffer based on an unfounded, unsupported post.

This begged my devil's advocate side to ponder if the converse is true as well... (change "suffer" to "benefit")

I agree with everything you have said and Keith mentioned the suggestion (I always hate the word threat) of lawsuits when we chatted at IWF, and I understand the gravity of these issues pretty well.

Someone mentioned the communications decency act codified as 47 USC section 230 which indeed would apply as an affirmative defense in federal court assuming the defendant could meet the usually applied three prong test. This legislation, later codified, was passed in response to Stratton Oakmont vs Prodigy back in the "iron age" of online forums. This NY Supreme Ct case held that online providers that screened content (similar to moderators on modern forums) were exercising editorial control thus were publishers and therefor liable for content they did not create nor solicit. Bottom line forum "owners" are pretty well insulated from members statements however this does not make them immune to the fee for service defense attorney needed to sidestep the case. In the end discretion is the better part of valor.

The problem with most negative reviews is that they are often written from the heart and not the head, often after resonable means have been taken to solicit a fix for the issue but the buyer has been rebuffed either rightly or wrongly. This often results in a vendetta approach where the "reviewer" is on a "mission" to hurt the company financially instead of merely informing other potential buyers of their exact issues. The widget they purchased may have had one flaw but through their anger becomes a totally useless pile of garbage unfit for any use and not a bargain at 1/10th the price. This is further compounded by the many e-tailers that just send a return label and refund or replace as a standard operating procedure, we get used to this but with machines the economics just don't work with the huge shipping costs and the tight margins.

This is a great place to divine good tools/machines from bad but it does take a lot of reading both in and between the lines. Quite frankly there are rarely "good" reviews here in that they tend to be excited over the top post purchase love fests or equally over the top venom fests both long on emotion and short on factual details. One glaring exception is Mr. Huber who always strikes me as having a balanced opinion which he supports with factual insights, not to say I haven't read other balanced reviews but Bill's just come to mind. If one takes the time to be sincere, honest and as fact based as possible you will likely not offend any powers that be, the more emotion that creeps into a negative review the more likely it is to be entombed in the hinterlands of the moderators forum. We all benefit from knowing that Acme Table Saw Co. Inc. LLC. makes a saw that spits out blades like a chimp slinging poo but unless the person relaying their experience takes a breath and lays out the FACTS and possibly supporting photos we all may miss this potentially important bit of info. If you approach your posts with the only agenda being passing along factual information to the community then it is unlikely you will be ducking service of process from an angry machine/tool company nor give Kieth any indigestion. If the company is smart they can actually use a negative review to their advantage, an excellent case in point is what Woodpeckers did with their Sidewinder product this forum.

One final thought is try not to take someone elses knock of a machine/tool you own as a personal afront to your man/womanhood, thats the reason the still make Fords AND Chevrolets. To continue the car analogy there will always be someone lost enough to argue a Corvette is better than a F458 Italia...:D

[John Coloccia]

I personally have been contacted by one individual who wanted an address for legal papers service for a lawsuit he planned on filing over what he perceived as unsafe advice being given at this website.

There are people in this world that make me absolutely sick to my stomach.

When an individual or manufacturer does that, why not replace the offending comments with a note indicating that it was removed because a lawsuit was threatened by so-and-so? Let the marketplace decide what to do with these guys.

[Paul McGaha]

I really like sawmill creek. While the subject is woodworking I think it comes down to the people, The moderators and the members.

While the moderators maintain the guidelines most of the writing is done by the members.

I've noticed there are some members that are very quick to be negative about most anythiing and on the other hand there are those that have a much more positive view. I suppose everything sort of balances out.

Just my $.02 but I think a little more self moderation might be better.

PHM

[Ken Fitzgerald]

There are people in this world that make me absolutely sick to my stomach.

When an individual or manufacturer does that, why not replace the offending comments with a note indicating that it was removed because a lawsuit was threatened by so-and-so? Let the marketplace decide what to do with these guys.

John,

In the case I sited, it was an indvidual who felt a method of some sort....advice....like how to drill or cut something was unsafe and this person objected that it was being left in public view. This was one of the few where it was an individual involved.

This person was guested, came back under a pseudonym but had the same attitude. His attitude and IP address made it pretty obvious it was the same person....different name. So, I called him by his original name and he responded then claimed to be the original guy's SIL. We guested this guy again.

[Mike Cruz]

Want to see an interesting trend? Look at the positions people are taking on this issue, and look at how many posts they have...:rolleyes:

This seems to be a lower number of posts vs higher number of posts issue.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

What are you trying to say Mike?


Are you trying to instigate something?:eek::rolleyes::D

[johnny means]

As an example, I love Weber grills, I have 4 of them. I've had them for the last 20 years or so, and I think the sun shines out of their ashpans. I look at the $20 grills in front of Kroger with disdain. They're utterly worthless. They're made of pathetically thin steel, painted surfaces, oddly shaped rounded-square design, thin, flexible grill plates, yadda yadda. I wouldn't inflict one as a gag gift on somebody. But then if I had never grilled before, I would spend $20 and see if it was OK. I'd quickly learn that I needed a better grill. I know that now, 20 years on. Conversely, my colleague has a couple of Big Green Eggs. He looks down his nose at my Webers, and rightly so. But then he has well north of $2000 invested in his Big Green Eggs.(Much less than I have in my shop :) ) I get great results from my Webers, and he gets outstanding results from his. Then we have our other work colleague who just likes grilled burgers. Whether I bring my Weber in or Greg brings his Big Green Egg.

A matter of perspective.

The real question is gas vs charcoal vs wood:D. And don't get me into a smoker vs. grill discussion. Those can really get out of hand.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Johnny,

I wasn't going to wade in on this but....

I use a Weber gas grill with a pan of water soaked hickory chips to provide the smoke.:D

[Mike Cruz]

Listen, Mr. 18,000+ poster, first of all, have you ever known me to instigate at all? :rolleyes: Secondly, I'd consider myself one of the higher number posters here. While 2,000 ain't no 18,000, for the purposes of my other post, I think it lets you know where I stand.

Besides, it was merely an observation that those with fewer posts were taking one side, while those with many posts took the other. Not instigating, observing and remarking on the observation.

I believe that those that have been here a while and/or frequent the forum, have a different view as to its values and what it is best used for. Believe me, I've used this place for both, heck ALL that it has to offer. I've whined and moaned, I've gloated, I've asked questions, given opionions, helped when I could, had fun, learned, and while it may not seem like it, I've even bit my lip more than anyone here would imagine. This place is awesome for ALL those reasons...not just as a place to post grievances. But, it is a good place for that, too...

[Mark Ashmeade]

Weber Performer. A charcoal grill with a gas ignition system. Best of both worlds. I wonder what's for Sunday dinner tomorrow... :D

[Don Bullock]

Matt,

Were you aware that you can be held responsible for libellous statements on the Internet and SawMillCreek has received threats of law suits by manufacturers for allowing threads with unproven allegations to go on too long? Don't take my word. Ask Keith Outten owner/administrator.

Believe me every argument that can come up about this subject has been discussed for many hours in the Moderators Forum.

While some may find this hard to believe, Moderators don't enjoy editing or moving threads. We catch enough subtle "jabs" and some not so subtle from members about it when we take one of those actions.

The Terms Of Service that all members acknowledge when they join states you can complain but you must present factual pertinent supportive information for your complaint. That means we aren't going to allow you to run to every thread that a company is mentioned in or any thread that customer service is mentioned in and give a generic rant.

Believe me....Moderators are invited unpaid volunteers. We aren't on the payroll of Festool, Grizzly, SMC or any of the advertisers here.

Ken, you and the other moderators here on SMC do a super job. The contributions you make to this forum make it a very special place when compared to some of the other WWing forums.

As to the OP, I understand your frustration on some of the posts. They can get personal. Each of us bring our own experiences and knowledge to this forum. While that is what makes this a great place for information it is also what can cause problems. The key word you used in the post was respect. It's a very simple word, but one that is often forgotten in today's world. If each person showed due respect for others it would go a long way toward improving the posts and give the administrators less work.

Yes, I'm one of those who posted recently about a tool problem. I was very appreciative of those who tried to help out. I also tried to help others by posting the solution for the problem just in case they experienced the same problem. Nothing is more frustrating to me than to spend my hard earned money on something and have it fail. Hearing experiences from others on tools, both good and bad, helps me tremendously. I appreciate those who share their experiences here.

[Mike Heidrick]

It is all about the shims...

Is that a gender flip flopper?

Webber gas here with the soaked chips and needing a charcoal solution too one of these days.

[David Helm]

I've been on other forums, one particular comes to mind; an unmoderated professional forum that will go un-named here. That forum often degenerates into name calling and vituperation. Doing posts and responses on any forum can be fraught with danger. Black and white typing does not allow the recipients of the post to see the nuances of facial expression and body language. Often tongue in cheek posts are taken as affronts. It is up to us to word our posts and responses carefully so that what we mean agrees with what we said.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......... have you ever known me to instigate at all...


I am 100% positive that Ken keeps an "Instigators" list - I have accused him of it in a PM, and he basically took the "neither confirm nor deny" route.

I know I am on it, and my money says you are also, Mike. There are another half-dozen guys I am sure are on it also - and they know who they are...... :D


Its a joke, guys - back away from the keyboard. Ken is just as even-keeled as the rest of the excellent Mod Squad, with the exception that he seems more willing to post his thoughts, which I always find thought-provoking. Don't always agree with him tho [espcially about the explosive properties of dust thru PVC pipe :p]. heh-heh-heh-heh. I just moved up a couple spots on his list!!!! Hot Dog!! [ooops - accidental wise-guy SS reference].