Yet another neader noob

[Derek Gilmer]

First my apologies for this being so long AND many thanks to those few who will read it all :)


So I've decided to ease into the neander world, primarily for cost/learning reasons. I've got a decently appointed shop of power tools and can handle the tasks that need to be done with them. But a few things are pushing me toward the elbow power instead of outlet power.

1. I grew up watching Roy Underhill, the ole' fashion way is engrained in me.
2. With a son on the way it seems much safer to pass on wood working with a hand saw and chisel as opposed to 5 hp cabinet saw and jointer. Plus we could have a conversation about what we are doing instead of having to wait for all the tools to spin down to talk.
3. Much better dust control
4. There is something magical about working wood by hand that I can't put my finger on
5. Too many pod casts by Shannon Rogers over the Thanksgiving break :)

I liked the free intro to Shannon’s Hand Tool School class and am thinking of signing up for it down the road. Mainly I liked his apprentice tool kit idea. A clear list of the tools needed to complete the first semester’s project. Here are the tools in his list:
1. Scrub plane
2. Jointer Plane
3. Smoothing Plane
4. Router plane
5. Chisels - 1/8, ¼, 3/8, ½, 1-1/2
6. Dovetail saw
7. Carcass saw
8. Tenon saw
9. Rip Saw
10. Crosscut saw
11. Combination square
12. Dividers x2
13. Bevel gauge
14. Marking knife
15. Awl
16. Marking gauge
17. Brace & bits
18. Sharpening setup
19. Wooden mallet
20. A good work bench

I have been trying to read quite a bit and have come up with a staged approach to my neander adventure. Here are my guidelines in their order of importance
1. By good tools, don’t skimp and rebuy later
2. Do not pay a premium for tools just to have a premium name
3. Get tools first that I don’t really have a power tool replacement for
4. Get tools next that make wood working better in either dust control, noise control or better results
5. Buy as much as my better half allows or doesn’t know about :)

Based on rule one and two of to buy good quality tools I focused my initial price list by shopping at Lee Valley and Lie Neilson. LV was in general less expensive but the total to get all of this at once came to around $2300 to buy brand new of medium to top quality tools from LV. I know that can be reduced quite a bit, especially buying older high quality planes and saws. Or buy just buying used high quality stuff. I simply wanted a base line for over all prices. Even assuming I could find everything at 50% off that comes to $1150 give or take. With a wee boy on the way that total isn’t going to fly with the wife or my own conscience right now. Therefore I’m going to sneak up on neanderthalling it. My plan is to buy strategically and patiently over the next year to get a good starter level of tools.

I already have a nice #4 plane (thanks Zack!) and planes in general are some of the more expensive items on the list. Given that I’ve moved them lower in priority but am not opposed to jumping on great deals if they happen to pop up. Again this is based around the fact I have a good cabinet, planer, jointer and router table for dimensioning and shaping as needed. For now here is my general priority list for tools and training

Training
1. Sharpening
2. Scraping
3. Dovetails
4. Mortise and Tenon work


Purchases
1. Priority 1

a. Build a good bench, leaning toward Roubo style
b. Chisels – LV bench chisels
c. Setup to sharpen chisels/planes/scrapers

i. 400, 800, 4000 and 8000 grit stones
ii. Flattening stone
iii. Veritas MK II honing/sharpening guide
d. One or two saws

i. Dovetail saw – Veritas dovetail or maybe a japenese dovetail saw. I’ve tried both and like it
ii. Tenon Saw – Pax 12” tenon saw?
e. Scraper setup – LV scraper set

i. Scrapers
ii. Scraper holder
iii. File/burnishing jig (not sure on this terminology)
f. Lots of wood to practice on
g. Marking gauges – LV Imperial graduated micro adjustable gauge
2. Priority 2

a. Everything else as I can find/afford/justify it.

I plan to start with joinery such as mortise and tenon joints, dovetails and finish prep (scraping instead of sanding first. Then move on to adding the rest of the tools listed.

So after that long post, here are my questions for the hand tool experts at SMC.

Does my general plan seem logical, both in my reasoning and choice of tools to go after first?
In general LV seems less expensive than LN, do you lose much quality?
For marking knives, will my good ole dependable Stanley utility knife do well enough in place of a $20 LV/LN marking knife?

Any advice is welcome even if it is just a link to a thread to read. I have search/read quite a bit the last few weeks. But with so many options and tools out there it has been hard to narrow in and dig deep into any one topic. I keep being afraid I’ll spend a lot of time chasing one topic that I should postpone til later in my hand tool adventure.

[Bill Houghton]

"Does my general plan seem logical, both in my reasoning and choice of tools to go after first?"

Yes; you'll find out as you go which part of it works and which doesn't. In theory, you should work with what you have until it frustrates you. In practice, most folks fall in love or lust with some tool or other before they really need it. That's OK.

If you don't already own one, get a combination square. You don't absolutely need a Starrett, although they're nice; but you don't want a cheap one either. Look for a mid-priced square, with a return policy, and test it when you get it (find something with a straight edge - the cardboard backing on a notepad would work, for instance - butt the square up against the edge and carefully draw a line against the edge of the rule. Flip it so that the stock - the handle part - is running the other way on the edge and draw a line right next to the first one. If they're not parallel, the square isn't square).

"In general LV seems less expensive than LN, do you lose much quality?"

I can't speak to LN quality because my wallet's never been quite that large, but the Lee Valley tools are excellent.

"For marking knives, will my good ole dependable Stanley utility knife do well enough in place of a $20 LV/LN marking knife?"

If by utility knife you mean the Model 99 retractable knife, called by some a "rock knife" for its use in cutting sheetrock - that might be a tad bulky, but give it a try. A lot of people swear by the small Xacto knife (like http://www.xacto.com/Product/X3202), and it showed as very competitive with far more expensive knives in a Fine Woodworking review.

[Jon Toebbe]

You'll want to go higher than 4000 grit on the sharpening stones, I'd imagine. I'd recommend a double-sided diamond plate in extra-coarse/coarse for rough edge shaping and stone flattening, a 1000 grit waterstone, and an 8000 grit waterstone. Learn to use them, and you should be able to get some terrifyingly sharp edges with a minimum of fuss.

Being in Arkansas, you may want to consider good old-fashioned oilstones. They may be a tad slow-cutting on A2 steel, but should do nicely on O1 or the equivalent. Joel Moskowitz of Tools for Working Wood fame has a nice tutorial on oilstone sharpening, and he'll gladly sell you everything you need, too.

I've also used ceramic stones with great success on chisels, knives, and carving tools. They're not too expensive, and are very low maintenance (scrub 'em off with Comet and a scouring pad in the kitchen sink when they get foul). I find the Spyderco stones to be a bit narrow for use with plane irons, but that's because I prefer a jig (the Veritas MkII is the bee's knees, btw) to make cambering an iron easy and repeatable.

Your idea to start your education with sharpening is excellent, and one I wish I'd had the discipline to stick with getting started. I've made a lot of ugly marks in expensive boards because I didn't really know how to get a sharp edge. "Sharp" is a moving target, but there's definitely a threshold of "sharp enough to get to work without struggling unnecessarily."

Welcome to the (quiet side of the) Creek!

[Jim Koepke]

Derek,

Welcome to the slippery slope by the Cave.

Your tool list is very ambitious.

One piece of advise that is often given to people just starting out is to pick a project, then pick the tools.

As far as your list goes, I am not really sure what a carcass saw is. I may have one, but to me it is just another one of the many saws in my accumulation.

I do not really have what would be considered a decent dovetail saw. It will likely be the first saw that I attempt to make. Right now, there are various back saws that are used for cutting dovetails.

My tools were bought over the last 20 years or so. A lot of them were bought without a need. Some of them are still waiting or get used very little. Most of them do get regular use.

You might start looking in hardware stores, yard sales and such to see if you can find a decent chisel you like in the 1/2 inch size (or a set or other sizes). Learn to sharpen that and then practice shaving wood with it or pairing end grain.

Then possibly buy a used or cheap saw and learn to sharpen that.

Once you get a few sharpening skills figured out, you will be on your way to be able to find an old plane or two to fettle.

Buy shopping around and buying used, you can knock that price way down.

Instead of buying 2 dividers, you can likely find an old drafting kit that has a couple pairs of dividers along with a few compasses and other drawing instruments. There are a lot of them out there and most drawing is done by CAD these days. I have seen good sets in antique stores for less than $20.

A marking gauge is easy to make. I think there is an online tutorial at Popular Woodworking on how to make a good one.

Many people use a pocket knife for a marking knife. I have made my own out of an old plane blade or saw blade.

A lot can be had for little money if you are willing to do a bit more work. I have often had more time than money. That is how I have learned to do a lot of the things I do.

jtk

[Steve Branam]

Yes, your plan looks excellent! For my take on a number of these questions, see http://www.closegrain.com/p/intro-hand-tools.html.

[Derek Gilmer]

Thanks for all the great replies and info.

Bill,

I was referring to the Stanley 99, or something like it. I already have an exacto knife set that I didn't even think about it.

John,
I had considered oil stones but many of the tutorials and info lean heavily towards water stones. So I figured it would be easier to get up to speed on sharpening and find answers to any questions using waterstones. And I"ll add the higher grit to my list, thanks!

Jim,
I know that a lot of that list can be had inexpensively. What makes me nervous are posts/blogs I've read of people that tried getting started with hand tools buying inexpensive. But because they (and I ) don't know how to buy inexpensive AND good tools I'd come home cheap and poor quality. Which leads to being frustrated and going back to my 110/220v tools. So I was thinking of starting out buying new AND good even if it makes entry a little slower. Since I have enough power tools to fill in the gaps I can't yet do by hand it seemed safer that way.

Also, those tools are picked for a project. Shannon has a series of lessons that will utilize them all to make various projects and teach how to use them effectively. Or so his marketing says :D

Steve,

Your blog is already bookmarked under my neader woodworking folder :p. Good to know one of my learning references likes my plan!

[john brenton]

These are always tough things to think about. On one hand, almost all of the tools you mentioned are CONSIDERED basic necessities and buying top quality will last you forever. On the other hand...that's a lot of money!

I'm with Jim, but that's just the way some of us are. Because I bought cheap so many times, I know what is fixable and what is a waste of time. I can confidently buy any hand tool knowing what to expect and bring it back to life if need be. I've been able to sample LOTS of different types and styles of tools going back well over 100 years. That's an enjoyable process as well. I guess that's part of the "hybrid hobby" that someone mentioned the other day.

Having done what Jim mentioned, and built the tool collection as I need them, I can say that there were frustrating parts where perhaps you don't even start a project because you know you don't have the right tool...but that may happen even if you buy all the tools you mentioned.

Tough one.

[Jason Chestnut]

I grew up in Arkansas, and a good friend of mine lived in Conway for several years working for Acxiom.

Your tool list looks like a good starter set of tools, and there are a number of ways you could go about filling that list. I like the idea of phasing them in to spread the financial impact a bit wider to lessen the blow. I also think you're on the right track for an order to start acquiring. Patience is key. I wish I had some. I'll echo the sentiment that it's good to buy tools you need as you need them, otherwise you do end up with stuff that sits unused for a long time. Chisel sets are one area that this comes up in -- buying a set of 8 or 10 can save you a few bucks per piece, but you might find in the long run that you could have gone with 4 or 5 sizes that you actually use and saved even more on the purchase.

The bench is a good first project, especially since you have and are comfortable with your power tool shop. Pick a couple of hand tools you could use to help build it and get those second (after the sharpening setup). Practice. Practice some more. So much of using hand tools is comfort and muscle memory. Go practice some more. :D

As far as tools, I'd suggest that you need a dovetail saw and a pair of larger rip and crosscut back saws for joinery. Lee Valley makes all three for a steal of a price. I've not used any of them, but they get great reviews by their owners. With chisels, I'd recommend figuring out one or two sizes you could use to augment your power tools (do you make a lot of 1/2" or 3/4" grooves or other cuts? get a matching chisel) and work with them and sharpen them for a while. You'll start to figure out what sizes you really need. The LV ones have good steel from what I've heard, but the plastic handles are a turn-off for some. You can get excellent wooden handled ones from places like Tools for Working Wood (the Ashley Iles) or even from Lee Valley (Narex, though they are metric) for not a whole lot more per piece. If you're like me, you'll develop a chisel fetish and start dreaming of Ray Iles mortisers, Japanese paring chisels, etc. Ugh.

Also, I have the Veritas marking gauge you mention, and I'd say don't bother with the graduations. This is just me, but I've never used either the graduations or the micro adjust. I find it just as easy to just creep up on measurements. Once you get comfortable with hand tools, you'll find that exact measurements tend not to mean nearly as much as with power tools.

The only other thing I'd add is that when it comes to marking knives, I prefer a single-bevel blade so that I can more easily get my cuts right against the square blade when making marks. This is personal preference, too, so figure out what's right for you. You could certainly make do with the utility knife until you decide whether it works for you.

Welcome to the quiet side of woodworking. I do most of my work after 9:00 or so when the kids (both under 5) and sometimes the boss are in bed. I could never do that with a table saw and planer. :) Low music works much better, too.

[Jason Chestnut]

By the way, a good place to go for hand tool instruction is Bob Rozaieski's blog (http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com). He's a contributor here and an all-around good guy. I know you aren't looking to abandon electrons entirely, but you can really learn a lot about how hand tools are intended to be used by watching a guy who uses them exclusively.

[Derek Gilmer]

I grew up in Arkansas, and a good friend of mine lived in Conway for several years working for Acxiom.

As far as tools, I'd suggest that you need a dovetail saw and a pair of larger rip and crosscut back saws for joinery. Lee Valley makes all three for a steal of a price. I've not used any of them, but they get great reviews by their owners. With chisels, I'd recommend figuring out one or two sizes you could use to augment your power tools (do you make a lot of 1/2" or 3/4" grooves or other cuts? get a matching chisel) and work with them and sharpen them for a while. You'll start to figure out what sizes you really need. The LV ones have good steel from what I've heard, but the plastic handles are a turn-off for some. You can get excellent wooden handled ones from places like Tools for Working Wood (the Ashley Iles) or even from Lee Valley (Narex, though they are metric) for not a whole lot more per piece. If you're like me, you'll develop a chisel fetish and start dreaming of Ray Iles mortisers, Japanese paring chisels, etc. Ugh.


The LV saws are on the top of my saw list, I've held and used them a bit and really like the feel. My only maybe there is I've also used Japanese style saws and fell in love with them.

So from a Chisel Junkie, which chisels would you recommend to start with?

And on a side note, Acxiom is what distracts me from woodworking. I mean I work at Acxiom right now :)

[Zach England]

You will want a block plane, too. I sort of consider at least one shoulder plane to be a necessity.

[Andrew Gibson]

I would say with the scraper, to skip the sharpening jig thing and do it free hand. get a burnishing rod and a file. you can use a block of wood with the file to get a square edge, hone on your sharpening setup, then turn the burr by hand. Bob has a tutorial on his blog that Jason posted.

As for sharpening stones I have the LV waterstones (King stones) in 200, 800, 1200, 4000 and 8000. I use the 200 to flatten all my other stones, and the sidewalk to flatten the 200. I still find myself with an 80 grit belt sander belt on the jointer bed to get really out of flat stuff flat. I use one of the side clamping jigs that can be had for cheep.

Other then that I think the list looks good. I would build a shooting board as soon as the bench is done, maybe before. You will find yourself shooting end grain even if you use the corded tools to crosscut or miter.

[Jason Chestnut]

The LV saws are on the top of my saw list, I've held and used them a bit and really like the feel. My only maybe there is I've also used Japanese style saws and fell in love with them.

So from a Chisel Junkie, which chisels would you recommend to start with?

And on a side note, Acxiom is what distracts me from woodworking. I mean I work at Acxiom right now :)

I dream of chisels day and night, but I really only have a handful of types and brands as of today. I'm probably going to get myself a few LN or Ashley Iles bench chisels to replace the Marples blue chips I've been abusing for a while. But my main problem is that I love the look and feel of Japanese chisels, and they can get pricey.

I'm currently in the process of trying to decide if I like Western or Eastern saws better. I have been using some machine-made Japanese saws lately because I knew I could get half decent ones for cheap that would cut. I have some really nice older Disstons that I haven't had the time to really learn to sharpen yet, hence my decision. I do like using both types so far -- I think that is one of those subjective things that some turn into a holy war. Whatever feels right to you works to cut wood. :) Oh, I do have an Adria dovetail saw that I use whenever I get a chance to try to mangle some dovetail joints. I only use the Japanese saws for big cuts.



Other then that I think the list looks good. I would build a shooting board as soon as the bench is done, maybe before. You will find yourself shooting end grain even if you use the corded tools to crosscut or miter.

I love shop-built tools. My round tuit list is a mile long, 3/4 of which is tools and a nice tool chest to store them in. :D

[Billy McCarthy]

Steve, I'd like to thank you for killing my entire morning. Read almost the whole thing. It's very enlightening for this noob. I was wondering about the order of planes for the workbench top I just started. Got 1 edge nice and flat and smooth only to discover that it wasn't really square. Good thing it's a big board. :)

[Dave Schwarzkopf]

You're certainly off to a good start with your tool list. I'd like to suggest planned buying: saving up for a time and then purchasing from LV when they offer free shipping, (once or twice a year), and from LN when you have a complete list, (if you purchase enough tools they've been known to offer a certain % off, just call them up and ask).

For the chisels and saws I'd recommend looking around your area for a local Creeker who may have a few different brands for you to try out. I'm partial to my Barr and Blue Spruce chisels and Bad Axe saws, but as mentioned, LV makes a hell of a deal on their saw set!

For your marking gauge, I prefer the Glen-Drake Tite-Mark to the LV; I own both and reach for the tite-mark every time. It's a bit costlier, but over the life of the tool the cost is forgotten and never regretted.

I will caveat this; while I own some very nice tools, not one of them makes me any better at the craft, that's why I particularly like how you laid out skill-building as part of your plan, (sharpening, scraping, planing, sawing, etc). Mastering those will get you much further than a Holtey or Bridge City Plane, (but they are just so damned sexy).

For your wife, just tell her that you wanted to start getting into an aspect of woodworking that you and your child could both do together; it'll be a great bonding time. If that doesn't work, have everything shipped to your place of business!

Almost forgot to add that there is no quality difference between Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen. Some folks prefer one over the other, but 98% of that is just the aesthetics.

[Steve Branam]

Thanks, I'm glad you guys are finding it informative! Uh, sorry about killing your morning, Billy! :D

I've got a couple more sections getting ready to post, need to get cracking.

[Derek Gilmer]

Thanks for all the replies. I've made notes to reflect suggestions from just about every post :)

The saws I'm pretty set on getting the LV set + dovetail saw. I've held them and know they just feel right compared to other saws. And I love the high tech meets old fashion of matte black and dark stained wood.

Dave,
I'll look at that marking gauge, not sure I remember looking at it yet. And thankfully my wonderful wife is very supportive of my wood working and so is her family. I'm thinking this will be an LV heavy Christmas :)

Andrew,
Thanks for the scraper info, anything that can save money (and thus lead to more other tools) with out sacrificing quality is a big plus in my book.

Jason,
Great info all around but I really appreciate the night time wood working reminder. Being able to work at night while folks are a sleep is a big plus for shop time and even more for shop temp since my shop is an non-air-conditioned garage for now.

Finally,
Steve you cost me some productivity today but it was well worth it to re-read some things. I'm looking forward to the next posts!

[Robert Culver]

Sounds like you got a great plan. what I did was bought a few GOOD tools new and when started building on them with user grade stal=nleys and others it honestly does save you a pile of $$$$.For example I bought a lie nielson % 1/2 no doubt my most used plan then after bought all others of ebay and creekers I have a set now all the way to the #7 and have less in all the stanleys and records that the one lie nielson.

Saws disstons are nice and I have had all mine freshened up it you will and like then alot.

Sharpening something I havent seen mentioned in a while is the Scary sharp system 3m psi sandpaper on safty glass. Personaly I have used most methodeds except ceramic stones and like this method the best and it is supper flexable yeah the paper wears out an tears but for the price of the 1000 grit stone ou can set yourself up to get started and its not as messy.

Re making my hand plans and saws has tought me some verrrryy valuble skills this knowlege is important to working with hand tools. It takes some time but theres not much about working with hand tools that is fast anyway. Ihave found it kinda like having a kid work with it slowly and dont get flustered.

[Peter Cobb]

I've got a couple more sections getting ready to post, need to get cracking.

Please do! They are great...
Cheers,
Peter

[Derek Gilmer]

After sleeping on it and re-reading some here is the modified plan :)

Training, same as above: sharpening, scraping, dovetail mortise & tenon.

Purchasing;
Round 1:
1. Good bench
2. 3 or 4 lv chisels - 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 and either 3/8 or 1-1/2"
3. Scary sharp sand paper+glass setup
4. Veritas Mk II honing guide
5. Veritas standard dovetail saw
6. Veritas carcass saw set (rip and crosscut)
7. Scraper stuff
8. LV marking gauge ( Glen-Drake tite-mark looks nice and will stay on my wish list for later)
9. Combination square ??

Optionals for round one
1. Mallet (i've got a hammer, chunks of wood I can carve up and a deadblow hammer already)
2. Awl, bevel gauge and divider - I'm having a hard time seeing the need for a fancy ones right now. I'm sure I'll replace my BORG versions eventually

I already have a exacto knife for marking, #4 plane for smoothing and power tools to do dimensioning of lumber for now.

All that should be pretty easy to swing purchase wise or christmas gift wise and leave a little room in the budget to get some other stuff as I find I need it :).

One last question, is there a good brand of Combination square out there besides Starrett that is still of good quality? I've searched around and haven't found much with reviews anywhere near the Starrett stuff.

[Jon Toebbe]

One last question, is there a good brand of Combination square out there besides Starrett that is still of good quality? I've searched around and haven't found much with reviews anywhere near the Starrett stuff.
I'd say this is one area where buying the premium brand is unquestionably the right choice. Browne & Sharpe is another well-regarded brand of machinist tools, but I don't think you'll save much by going with them. A well cared-for Starrett will last just shy of forever and be used as often as you pick up the marking knife or pencil.

That said, I was really enamored of the Lee Valley 4" double-square I got to play with at the Woodworking Show in Denver. Light, slim, and very tight tolerances. For smaller layout jobs, I'd really fancy one of those (hint, hint, in case my wife stumbles across this post while Christmas shopping :D ).

[Derek A. Johnson]

I started with the Marples blue-handled chisels, and later upgraded to the set of LV bench chisels. The LV chisels are nice for the price, but I would not recommend them for dovetails. The edges are very fat and I was bruising my dovetails. I ordered a set of the Ashley Iles which have much thinner edges. They seem fine so far, but if I was starting over I would probably just order the LN chisels and be done with it. Or, I would wait for Lee Valley's new chisels.

I have the LV dovetail saw and the new crosscut/rip set. Highly recommended.

I also have the LV marking gauge and the Tite-mark. I would order the cheapest LV gauge for now (no micro-adjust or graduations) and then get the Tite-mark later. You will need more than one. The Tite-mark is nicer--it doesn't roll off the bench, and it is easier to set.

Derek

[Trevor Walsh]

In the saw department I'd say a great excercise is to buy parts or kits, Gramercy or Mike Wenzloff etc. and build a saw. They go quick and you end up with a really good saw. I love my Gramercy 12" rip carcass saw made from a kit. I use it for tenon-work and dovetails.

I'll also second that LV and LN are similar in performance, LN is traditional in the stanley/record appearance and LV is more progressive, they all work great.