Plane for Guitar Slabs?

[Steve H Graham]

I have been weeping over the difficulty of using a planer sled to joint smallish pieces of wood. I really don't want to fill the remaining air space in my garage with a giant jointer. It just occurred to me that I could summon what little testosterone I have and learn to use hand planes.

Can anyone recommend a good plane for face-jointing hardwood boards no longer than 20" and no wider than 15"? I don't mind spending a little, if the cheap ones are no good. I hate bad tools.

I would like to be able to create boards sufficiently smooth and flat to glue together one on top of the other, so I can put figured tops on the guitars.

Edit: I have been reading various threads, trying to get the info I need. Let me clarify: a plane that will clean these boards up enough so I can run them through my planer will be more than adequate. I am not particularly interested in doing the whole job by hand.

[Philip Berman]

#4's are a good place to start. If you're working with stock just 20" long, you can joint with it, flatten, smooth, etc. For simplicity, and since you're not talking about a huge investment, I'd buy 2, setting up one for rough cutting and hogging off material, the other a much finer setup so you can get a glass-smooth surface. Check out craigslist or ebay for older stanleys, or if you're not up to a full rehab, check out LeeValley, Lie-Nielson, etc. Don't forget you're going to need a honing system too - sharp planes are a pleasure to use but dull ones are a nightmare and will discourage you pretty quickly. Finally, don't forget that even brand-new, virgin planes will need honing.

good luck

Phil

[Matt Radtke]

So the funny thing about "getting them ready to run through your planer" is that that's the hardest part. Might as well do the rest by hand too. . . ;)

How mucked up are your boards first? Do you need to do some major hogging or just cleaning up?

Conventional wisdom is a low angle jack from LN or LV would probably work be a good choice. I don't know, I haven't had the pleasure yet.

A vintage jointer, 7 or 8, would be fine as well.

[brian c miller]

Vintage Stanleys are a bit of a crap shoot. If I was to only have one plane I'd second the vote for a LV low angle jack. Pick up a few of the other blades and you can open the mouth to hog off with a heavy cambered blade, close it to flatten with a slightly cambered one, and close it some more with a High angle blade to smooth.

[Pat Barry]

Steve, I am interested in your troubles with the planer sled approach to finishing your resawn boards. How thin are the resawn pieces? How much extra length do you have to work with to avoid snipe problems? How are you securing the pieces to the planer sled? Finally, what exactly is happening with the pieces? What is the exact problem you are experiencing? I would apreciate hearing about the details a bit because this is exactly something I need to do very soon. Thanks

[Roy Lindberry]

I have been weeping over the difficulty of using a planer sled to joint smallish pieces of wood. I really don't want to fill the remaining air space in my garage with a giant jointer. It just occurred to me that I could summon what little testosterone I have and learn to use hand planes.

Can anyone recommend a good plane for face-jointing hardwood boards no longer than 20" and no wider than 15"? I don't mind spending a little, if the cheap ones are no good. I hate bad tools.

I would like to be able to create boards sufficiently smooth and flat to glue together one on top of the other, so I can put figured tops on the guitars.

Edit: I have been reading various threads, trying to get the info I need. Let me clarify: a plane that will clean these boards up enough so I can run them through my planer will be more than adequate. I am not particularly interested in doing the whole job by hand.

For the size of boards you are talking about, a #4 would be ok, but I would recommend a #5. Of course, the jack plane is my "go to" plane because it is my favorite giving a good balance of weight and sufficient length. If I had only one plane, it would be my Lie-Nielsen #62 (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=62), which is the same basic size as a #5, but with a low angle iron. It is AMAZING!

Build yourself a shooting board the right length for your material, and you will minimize the learning curve for jointing by hand.

[Joel Goodman]

+1 on the Lie Nielsen #62. If you get one getting two blades to sharpen at different angles is a good idea.

[Pam Niedermayer]

+1 on the Lie Nielsen #62. If you get one getting two blades to sharpen at different angles is a good idea.

+2 And I've heard the LV version is very good, too.

Pam

[Steve H Graham]

Pat asked some questions.

The resawn pieces vary in thickness, up to 3/4". I suppose I will eventually use 2" stock, so I can make guitars from single pieces.

As for extra length, in the past I managed to face-joint boards without getting noticeable snipe, so this time, I left as little as an extra inch of length. A couple of the boards have more like 4".

I am not securing anything to the planer sled. If you look at the most well-known design, by a guy named Rust, you will see it relies on friction.

The main problem is that I'm having a very hard time eliminating rocking with some of these boards, so I'm getting an assortment of thickness variations. I'm also getting snipe, but I think that's mostly a problem of forgotten technique. I think I beat it on the last board.

Matt asked how screwed up the boards are. I'll be using fairly smooth but non-jointed stuff from a local lumber yard. I'm resawing it on a 19" band saw. I would guess that I won't run into any deviations bigger than 1/8", and I think a 1/8" problem would be exceptional.

As luck would have it, I own the Mario Rodriguez plane video, and I just started watching it. It's like a new religion! He has been fooling with a plane for ten minutes, and it's still not ready to use! He has Japanese water stones, two sharpening jigs, a 3/8" glass pane to support sandpaper for plane-flattening, and an 8" Baldor grinder! I know I can make a plane function without all that junk, but it's still intimidating.

Is it possible to buy a quality plane that will work right out of the box? I know it would have to be maintained and sharpened, but he's practically rebuilding the Stanley he's working on, and I don't need that kind of aggravation.

I have a milling machine, so I could fly-cut the bottom of a crooked plane and skip a lot of the work he does, but it still looks like a chore.

[Steve H Graham]

HOLY COW! The Lie-Nielsen #62 is $245! I figured I was looking at half of that, tops!

[David Weaver]

I would get a plain old #5 and get a replacement iron and put a back bevel of 15 degrees on the original iron. That should cost about $80 at most.

Buying a premium plane is not a bad option, though, you will never lose much if you decide to sell it. I would not buy a premium bevel down #5, that's a waste of money.

I also don't like BU planes for rough work. If you're working with really highly figured stuff, an old #5 for $25 or whatever and a new LA jack from LV with two blades isn't a bad option.

Don't worry about all of the details at first. You want a sharp well bedded iron with everything on the plane tightened correctly. the rest of the details will present themselves to you over time with use.

If i had a tuned 5, I would sell it to you cheap. As it is, I have a tuned millers falls # (mf calls it an 18) with a replacement iron and chipbreaker. I think it might be a little large for what you want to do, though.

[John Coloccia]

When using a planer sled, you need to secure the board to keep it from rocking. Many use a combination of shims and hot glue. If the board can rock, even just a little bit, it's game over. It's critical that the board is secured in such a manner that it won't budge when you pass it through the planer.

[Steve H Graham]

I almost had to change my diapers after checking the prices on those things. I am looking at every product that has been recommended. Some guy is selling a set of old Stanleys for $125 on the South Florida Craigslist, but I don't know enough about planes to know if they're any good.

http://miami.craigslist.org/brw/tls/2081608507.html

[David Weaver]

That's a very fair price if all that's wrong with them is chipped totes. They would do what you need, though they might need a little attention.

"as found in the wild" means he got them somewhere cheap and is just flipping them.

Still, if the chipbreakers are accurate, they are all bailey planes, which are good solid users. If you go look at them, make sure I'm not all wet and that none of the chipbreakers say anything other than "stanley" on them.

[Steve H Graham]

When using a planer sled, you need to secure the board to keep it from rocking. Many use a combination of shims and hot glue.

Tonight it occurred to me that the problem with the Rust sled is that it was designed by a woodworker who doesn't think in terms of metal. A system of bolts threaded into the sled might be much easier to adjust. The cross supports on the Rust sled invite rocking from side to side.

[Steve H Graham]

Is there any point in looking at the planes they sell at Woodcraft? The only reason I ask is that it's the only woodworking store anywhere near me.

Edit: It looks like their Woodriver planes get glowing positive reviews and cause very few headaches. Would that be a good place to start, or is it worth it to go ahead and get the Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen jobs? I'm wondering if I should get a Woodcraft plane for now, and once I get my head out of my rear end, I could dedicate it to roughing and get a better plane for finish work.

Recommendations for sharpening jigs would also be appreciated.

[David Weaver]

Recommendations for sharpening jigs would also be appreciated.

eclipse style jig, cheapest you can find it.

[Jim Koepke]

Since I have never built a guitar, I am experiencing a little difficulty understanding the problem.

My thought about jointing the pieces of wood leads me to think something like a #5 would work. You might want something a bit longer, but you do mention that your pieces are in the 15-20" range. But you also mention face jointing. For this, you might definitely want something wider if not also longer. That sounds like one of those odd places where a #6 might be the best candidate.

Having a perfectly flat sole is nice. Being able to flatten a surface with a plane that is less than perfect is possible. What may be more difficult is trying to flatten a surface with a smoother like a #4. The shorter a plane, the more prone it is to following the subtle hollows in the face of a board.

I like my LN #62, but the cost of it and a few extra blades may be a bit steep on the cost of entry.

There is a lot of information in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs "Sticky" thread to help get you started.

jtk

[Steve H Graham]

The problem is that I'm gluing flat pieces of wood on top of each other in a stack, to form a solid slab, and they have to be perfectly flat in order to be joined this way. The edge jointing is not a concern. I think I can handle that with the table saw or router.

I will try to figure out what size plane I need.

I think those little shoulder planes are pretty cool, too. I'm afraid to check the price, though!

[Jim Koepke]

Doesn't look too bad at $31.25 a plane.

If the bodies are not cracked and the blades not too bad, it would be cheaper than one LV or LN.

I would consider it if it was in my area. Especially if the guy would come down in price.

jtk

[Floyd Mah]

Hi Steve: I made a Les Paul recently. I had to flatten the maple top, about 13" by 18" after I glued up the two piece top from narrower stock. Needless to say, the glue-up was not completely flat. I used a plane to get the board close to flat, but I did the final flattening by sanding the board on sandpaper that I glued to 3/4" mdf placed on top of my table saw. If you are careful how you run the board over the sanding surface, you can get a very flat surface. If you are familiar with fettling hand planes, that is one of the techniques that can be used to flatten the planes, although usually with float glass. By the way, be aware that residual grit from the sanding makes it probably advisable to not plane a previously sanded surface.

This will be the cheapest, easiest way to do the task that you plan. You don't even need to get the plane if you are willing to do a little more sanding.
Also, once you place the 75 pounds of clamps on the final glue-up as I did, the very small differences between the two boards will be negligible. I actually made two bodies and they both came out really well with this flattening technique.

[Steve H Graham]

People have recommended at least 4 different plane sizes. I don't know what's right! We're talking about boards that are 20" by 14" or less.

[Johnny Kleso]

No5 Plane is what you want!!!!!!!!

Best all around plane there is............................................

Its know as a Jack Plane as in Jack of all trades or Jackass = Work Animal

[Niels Cosman]

No.5 all the way.
No.4 would work but is really too short for flattening/jointing. longer sole=flatter boards quicker.

If you dont mind ponying up the dough. I would go No. 62 Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley LAJ. It's a great plane that can be used for many a task. If you want to start expanding it's repertoire can always add replacement blades with different profiles on them. One will be more than adequate for what you want to do. If you dont like it you can always sell it on ebay for nearly what you paid for it. (ps. you can buy it on ebay for a little less than what someone paid for it to too)

My first plane was a Stanley no.5 (a beat old 605 bedrock that I rehabbed) and my second was a used LN no.62. I love both and either is up to your task. The 605 cost about 115 bucks (with a hock replacement blade)but I did put lot of work in to it. Of course, I didn't mind at all. I actually really enjoy the process restoring tools and have rehabbed dozens of old planes. I especially with that first plane learned a lot about planes, how they are built, what make them work better in the process. It took a lot of the mystery out the contraptions for me and made me a lot more comfortable taking a file to a tool when it is necessary. However it's not for everybody and for those people new premium planes are a godsent. When I got the LN no.62, I got the first taste of what a plane can do out of the box (and it was already 10 years out of the box)- it was awesome and I never looked back.

My only real caution is that the neander-path is a slippery slope!

[Johnny Kleso]

I just checked WoodCraft and they have a Groz No5 for $27 on clearance..

For that price its a good start and you can always crown the blade down the road and use it was a semi-scrub plane if its a real POS

[Steve H Graham]

And of course, the guy from Lie-Nielsen recommends a No. 7, but he says an 8 is his personal choice!

ARGGH!

I guess the message is that anything between 5 and 8 can be made to work.

Last night I got an idea for a shopmade sled that will hold a board over a router table so you can plane the board with a flush-cutting bit. I think that would be a good place to start. It will cost about $3.00, and I believe it will be easy and reliable for small boards. I can't get a plane in less than a week anyway, so I might as well do something now.

The basic idea is two pieces of wood (about like 1 by 2s) running parallel to the long sides of the board. Put some adhesive-backed nonskid stuff on the inside of each piece. Run a piece of threaded rod through the end of each piece, perpendicular to the long side of the board. Put the board between the pieces with the nonskid gripping it (out of reach of the router bit), and then tighten up the threaded rods until the board is suspended firmly. Adjust the router's height so it planes off enough of the wood to make a face that will not rock when placed face-down on the planer. Then plane as usual.

I think it will work, especially for boards that are reasonably thick and rigid. For boards that can be flexed, I could put a couple of cross-pieces over the top and use threaded rod to make doodads that apply a little pressure to the top of the board and keep it from bowing.

Can't hurt to try.

I watched some more of my hand plane video last night. Mario Rodriguez did exactly what I want to do: he flattened a warped board about 20" square. He used a #7, I believe.

I love those little shoulder planes he uses. So much faster than setting up a router!

[John Coloccia]

The traditional way of flattening a board with a router is to make rails for the router to slide on, put the whole thing over your wood, and move the handheld router back and forth to flatten.

[Steve H Graham]

Thanks, John. Let me give you the reason I didn't want to do that, and you can tell me what you think.

In order to make that work, you have to have two perfect side rails, and I assume you have to anchor the whole mess down. The way I want to do it, the defects in the side rails won't matter, as long as the jig can't rock. And I can use my table, so I don't have to worry about my inept router handling giving me gouges.

It seems to me that the conventional system, with the router on top, is necessary for big boards, because you can't move them around over a table, but for little boards, you can get away with moving the jig over a stationary router.

What do you think?

[Joe Cunningham]

I do most of my guitar slab prep work with a old Stanley #6. Since the blood and guts guy hates them, no one wants them at all.

I think I paid $20 for mine.

BTW I do all my woodwork by hand, except routing the guitar shape (even thickness planing). I have a thread on another website I can send you where I go through all the steps for planing a guitar blank (Telecaster in that case).

[Steve H Graham]

That's pretty cool, Joe. Who is the blood and guts guy?

I may grab a Stanley somewhere eventually, just so I can spend some time learning how to fix a plane so it works.

[David Weaver]

The reason behind the different recommendations, and why a 5-8 would work:

You need a plane with a nose long enough to reference the start of the cut, assuming you are not someone who uses planes all the time. A 5 is probably the shortest plane that will do that. The nose on a 4 or 4 1/2 is too short. Great for smoothing, but not so great for flattening.

Anything else bigger will do the same thing, but not necessarily much better for a glue-up, and you may find bigger planes cumbersome on a 9x20 board, or you may not.

The cheapest way out of this is a vintage #5, but you want one that is flat if you are going to make it pull duty from heavy to thin shavings (the thin may be necessary to have a tidy job if you are working figured woods).

Don't get too wrapped up in the details otherwise, you're trying to do something fairly simple, and several planes will work.

I have and love a LN #7. I use it every time I face joint a board that's more than 2 feet long. I wouldn't buy one if I were in your shoes, though, it's not a necessary expenditure.

I and several other people have planes that you could easily get by with. I'm squatting on my millers falls #6 size plane just because I want to remake the tote and knob out of macassar ebony, but I don't use the plane because it's the same size as a spiers copy panel plane I have. I think it's something you could use, and I would sell it for less than what it's cost me to get it and put a hock iron and chipbreaker in it, but that's not what I'm trying to do in general (I don't want to be perceived as trying to dump my stuff). I think you need something like it if cost is an object. 5, 6, 7 size are all no problem, whatever you pick. A bone stock older stanley 5 with original iron, if bought right, can be turned into a nice user without spending any additional money.

You don't need an 8, you really don't need a 7, you just need something flat and tight and larger than a smoother.

[David Weaver]

That's pretty cool, Joe. Who is the blood and guts guy?


Patrick Leach. 6s have come back a little since he first wrote his page, because people have bought them and found out they are a very nice plane to use. Opinions differ about that, I guess, but they are the size of a large panel plane in footprint, and are long enough to flatten well and still not too big to be nimble enough to dial the shaving back and turn askew for smoothing. Not nimble like a small smoother, but nimble enough.

I gave $38 with shipping for my millers falls on peebay, which was after stanley 6s started to make a comeback, plus I wanted the novelty jointed lever cap on the MF. Unfortunately, I tooted my horn several times about all of the millers falls 4 and 5 size planes that I got for $10-$15 on peebay, and the two 18s that I got for $30 and $38, and then other people started tooting their horns about them, and they seem to go for about the same as stanley planes do now.

You can still find any plane for $20 or a little more if you are patient enough.

[Sam Takeuchi]

You know it is a very simple procedure. If you had a hand plane (a tuned or quality one at least), you could do this in one go and even skip jointer to make surface glue ready. I know you aren't interested in doing it all by hand, but to me, it seems like doing it by hand seems like the easiest and least complicated approach. At this point, it's becoming rather...too much hassle to seek a hand tool to prep your workpiece for a jointer.

Here is the thing. It is true that anything between No 5 and 8 will do. You don't need 8. It's too big for your board. Ideally, go with 5-1/2 or 6. But 7 is fine if you don't have access to 5-1/2 or 6. Since you are just prepping your board to chuck it into a machine, you just need a plane that can flatten, yet, work quickly. 7 or 8 will tire you out, but they will flatten your board fine enough that you don't need to chuck it into jointer.

The rest is how methodical you work on this piece. A plane, pencil, winding sticks and a straight edge will get it done quick if you approach it right. Don't try to plane end to end, but mark high spots, hog away high areas. Check the surface using winding sticks and straight edge, mark high areas, remove while paying attention to twist.

If you aren't familiar with hand planes, you might not be able to achieve satisfactory result until you develop some level of skill. It doesn't matter if you get a 5 or 8 or anything in between, if you haven't learned how to control it, they won't automatically flatten the board. If you have good experience with power tools, you may be able to achieve good result using router with rail as mentioned above. That should at least get the board ready to chuck it into a machine (though I think thickness sander would be a better choice of machine than a jointer).

[Steve H Graham]

Now I have to find out what winding sticks are!

[Jim Koepke]

Now I have to find out what winding sticks are!


http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=53276&cat=1,230,41182


They call me the Wood Whimperer.

Heck, I am a wood butcher.

jtk

[Steve H Graham]

A Creeker is offering me old Stanleys he has restored, and the price is good, so I think I'll grab a 5 and a 6 and see what happens.

[David Keller NC]

Steve - One caveat. While most folks (including me) on this board are usually answering questions about handplanes, you should realize that the workbench is equally important to you getting a flat surface - much, much more so than a bench that only needs to hold something still to apply a power tool to.

No doubt the initial entry price (whether that's with LN planes and a $2k bench, or restored and sharpened stanleys and a $50 palning beam) can be intimidating. But if you're making musical instruments, it's highly likely that you're going to wind up going in this direction anyway, and a good, solid workbench is never a bad thing even if you're a power tool user. It's just that for hand tool work, it's necessary instead of nice to have.

[Floyd Mah]

Steve: You've gotten a lot of good advice on how to do the job with planes, but what do you expect when you post your question in a hand tool forum. I noticed that earlier you made a reference to a milling machine, so I assume that you have some knowledge of machining. In the case of the task you present, unless you are dedicated to doing the job with hand tools, you are facing a moderate learning curve to complete this with planes. I say this because I have experience with hand planes, have a dozen hand planes, and recently made two guitars with carved tops (maple over mahogany). You might get a better result if you first rough cut with a fly cutter on your mill.

The traditional way of establishing a flat reference surface in machine work is to take two plates, grinding them until they fit without gaps, then repeat the process with another plate until the three plates fit perfectly. My suggestion is to start with sandpaper glued to mdf, flatten both the top and bottom slabs against them and you are done, since the mdf when laid on the table saw should be sufficiently flat for your purposes. Should take less than an hour and possibly four sheets of sandpaper (two #80 and two #120). If you were to attempt to do this work with a hand plane, you might have to practice the technique several times before you can risk your good wood. Even then, your results may vary. The people who post here are very knowledgeable and experienced and could do things in minutes that would take a novice a few weeks and a pile of wasted wood to get right.

I'm not saying that it isn't a good thing to learn these techniques, but to plane two 20" by 15" boards flat enough to glue for a musical instrument application without plenty of experience is asking for quite a lot from you.

So, along with my previous 2 cents worth, that's my 4 cents contribution.

[Steve H Graham]

The "bench" is the extended part of my saw table. I have an old Powermatic 66 with a very long Biesemeyer system, and I used the top from an old computer desk (super-thick particle board covered with melamine) to replace the plywood table it came with. At the time I built it, it appeared to be extremely flat. I did not have a precision straightedge to measure the flatness. I think I used a very straight piece of wood to check it. Best I could do.

I have another bench which is made from two-by-sixes I screwed together. The wood is just like it was when I found it at Home Depot.

[Johnny Kleso]

B&D Workmate is what I used before building a bench..

[Steve H Graham]

I took a whack at the router idea. It takes forever, and the finish is not great, and I dinged the cutter on a threaded rod!

Guess it's planes and planers for me.

[David Christopher]

sounds like you need a drum sander

[Pat Barry]

Steve, I posted a reply on your thread title Planer Sled FAIL. I would recommend sending the Rust sled to the dump. I could see nothing good coming from it.

[Joe Cunningham]

sounds like you need a drum sander

A $20-60 plane and some practice or a $1000 piece of equipment. He balked at $245 for a new plane, is a drum sander really an option? :rolleyes:

[Richard Verwoest]

I recommend getting the #3 and #5 WoodRiver planes from Woodcraft. These are very decent planes. I would also just get the cheap grey honing guide, a piece of granite cutoff from a granite shop and some wet/dry paper from an automotive detail shop. Watch a few Youtube videos (the ones by Lie-Nielson are great) and you'll be able to smooth out that wood no problem.

Hoss

[John Coloccia]

Personally, I think the planer sled will work fine once he secures the wood so it won't wobble. Building a guitar is difficult enough without learning a whole new skill at the same time. That's just my opinion, but I would just use the planer sled if the goal is to build a guitar. If the goal is learning to use hand tools, that's different.

Having planes is nice so that he can knock down the really bad spots before trying to get it to stay put on a sled.

That's just my opinion.

[Steve H Graham]

Having planes is nice so that he can knock down the really bad spots before trying to get it to stay put on a sled.

This is what I love about this forum. Way back at the start, I said it would be nice to have a plane just so I could prepare wood for the planer, but someone immediately told me that was the hardest part of the job!

Someone mentioned granite. I have a granite dining table. I suppose I could plane on that if i absolutely have a flat surface. I'm assuming it's flat, however. I know stone can bend a little.

[Pat Barry]

Steve, I'm beginning to wonder if you don't have things flat enough to do the lamination and then work with a thicker, stiffer material stackup. How much extra length will you have to work with so you don't have to worry about the snipe problem on the stackup?

[Steve H Graham]

I've confused myself to the point where I'm not sure which board goes where, but I'll figure it out. I think I am going to end up with enough usable wood to do the job.

I think I'm going to get a Rikon 10" jointer/planer. I am working on making the planer sled function, and I have a hand plane on the way, but this is too much aggravation, and the Rikon looks like a more than adequate machine for my needs.