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View Full Version : A car question: do timing belts REALLY need to be changed?



Dan Friedrichs
11-30-2010, 12:44 PM
LOML drives a 2000 Accord that is in rough shape (only 70k miles, but has a salvage title, has been in numerous accidents, needs a new catalytic converter, check engine light won't go off, airbags don't work, paint peeling off the trunk lid, warped brake rotors, etc). It is time for a timing belt change, which will cost me about $1k. I realize that if the belt breaks, the engine is in trouble, but what is the real risk of that happening? And what are the consequences (ie - if the risk of breakage is low, and the only consequence is needing a valve job, is it more cost effective to not change the belt?)

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Doug W Swanson
11-30-2010, 12:53 PM
How much damage done to the engine is really dependent on when the belt breaks. I had a belt break on my 1982 Pontiac J2000 about 20 years ago and no damage occurred to the engine. I felt pretty lucky.

In other cases you may get by with just doing a valve job but if a valve breaks off you could end doing damage to the pistons, cylinder, block etc.

$1k seems a little steep for just a belt change but sometimes they will replace the water pump since it usually has to be removed to replace the belt.

I'm not an expert but that's just my experience....

Mike Davis NC
11-30-2010, 12:57 PM
The real question is why are you letting your wife drive such a dangerous car?

George Lesniak
11-30-2010, 1:07 PM
Your Accord has an interference engine. If the belt breaks look for much more that a valve job.

You could always do the job yourself. You didn't mention which engine is in your Accord but a timing belt typically runs $50-$60 for the belt alone. I prefer to change the tensioner and idler pulleys as well as the water pump at the same time. A complete timing belt kit will run about $200.

George

Marty Paulus
11-30-2010, 1:09 PM
Well from your description I would not worry about the timing belt. It is the least of your worries as there are some safety things that need addressing first. My recommendation is to wait on the timing belt. I am not sure of the Honda design but the risk is anthing from the motor being destroyed from piston to valve contact to a simple shut down of the motor.

David Epperson
11-30-2010, 1:13 PM
Our little Isuzu truck also has an interference engine (which only means that the pistons WILL hit a valve if the belt breaks). This same truck recently had a timing belt break, only bent one valve. - so yeah they DO need to be changed. But this truck had 187K on the original belt too. It's a risk, but at 70k...probably a safe one for now. How long is the rest of that car going to last?

Dan Friedrichs
11-30-2010, 1:26 PM
It's a risk, but at 70k...probably a safe one for now. How long is the rest of that car going to last?

That's basically what I'm asking - I'm not sure how serious the risk is, so I'm grateful for the feedback as to whether or not this is worth doing.

I know $1k sounds like a lot - but that's about what 2 dealers and 1 indep't shop quoted to do it (and the water pump at the same time).


Just to note: I have an appt at the dealer to have the airbag fixed (an indep't shop couldn't figure out the problem), and this car is never driven on the highway - just ~2 miles back-and-forth to work. Besides, we're poor grad students - we aren't allowed to have nice cars :D

John Coloccia
11-30-2010, 1:40 PM
Honestly, I'd seriously consider driving the car until it just died, junking or donating it, and in the meantime, saving up for another car. How much $$$ do you want to sink into it? Between the belt, catalytic and airbags, you're might be looking at a LOT of $$$. Even the rotors and brakes are going to cost somewhere around a few hundred bucks

You also need to ask yourself, why did the catalytic converter die? Not always but often that's a sign that something else is wrong. They're not designed to die. That check engine light can be for a zillion different reasons, some of which can kill the catalytic. Some are cheap, and some are expensive to fix.

Personally, I'd take it to a mechanic that I trusted (ask around) and have him do an evaluation before doing anything else. You may well find that it will take thousands of dollars to make it right. At that point, you may just want to roll the dice and see what you get out of it, knowing you're on borrowed time.

I was on borrowed time with my Durango for a couple of years. A bit of Lucas oil in the tranny and a bit of luck got me through to where I was just about to move from California back east. Donated the Durango and drove the other car cross country. Worked out perfectly.

Callan Campbell
11-30-2010, 1:56 PM
Yes, timing belts are important, and usually the service interval of their recommended change times is pretty tight with regards to belt life on some engines, however other engines seem to run way past the recommended schedule with no breakage reported. So, don't play with fire on this one, you already have a damaged/rebuilt car due to the salvage title and the numerous other issues you're living with.
The warped brake rotors would drive me nuts anyway if they're causing enough brake shudder when stopping the vehicle.;););)
My vote is to ditch this vehicle and get another better one before dumping any more money for a timing belt and related parts like a water pump. Unless you're really tight on cash, or in love with the current Honda, it seems like the old expression of "throwing good money after bad" applies to the vehicle.
If you do nothing however, you can expect the belt to break in time, and either damage the engine ,or ruin it depending on how many RPM's the engine was at when the belt broke and the design of the motor itself.
The days of non-interference motors are pretty much gone due to the needed valve to piston clearances of fuel efficient engines, esp, with multi-valve set-ups like 4 valves per cylinder.

Dan Hintz
11-30-2010, 2:00 PM
If you do end up looking for another car, see if you can find one with a timing chain... those never need to be replaced. My S2000 has one of those...

Andrew Arndts
11-30-2010, 2:37 PM
LOML drives a 2000 Accord that is in rough shape (only 70k miles, but has a salvage title, has been in numerous accidents, needs a new catalytic converter, check engine light won't go off, airbags don't work, paint peeling off the trunk lid, warped brake rotors, etc). It is time for a timing belt change, which will cost me about $1k. I realize that if the belt breaks, the engine is in trouble, but what is the real risk of that happening? And what are the consequences (ie - if the risk of breakage is low, and the only consequence is needing a valve job, is it more cost effective to not change the belt?)

Thanks in advance for your advice.

As someone that has worked in the Automotive Parts Industry... a BRAND NEW belt can break though rare, it can happen. So it is a wise thing to replace it. Yeah a royal pain in the arse to replace it. but do it.

Jerome Hanby
11-30-2010, 2:42 PM
FWIW, i never had an y problems, but I got nervous around 220K and had the timing belt and associated parts (water pump and front seal) replaced on my CRX, man wish I had kept that car.

Montgomery Scott
11-30-2010, 4:13 PM
Timing belt should not need to be replaced until it hits 105k miles for a 2000 accord. The older ones were 90k miles.

A buddy of mine had a Nissan Pathfinder. He put off replacing the timing belt until it broke and that was the end of the engine. IIRC, the belt was only 15k miles past the recommended replacement.

Ken Fitzgerald
11-30-2010, 4:56 PM
Dan,

Check the owner's manual for the car and follow it.

Don't be surprised if the local dealership tries to get you to change it sooner than the manual calls for it. They do that here.

Twelve years ago I bought my youngest son a used Honda Prelude when he was in college. I was talking to a Zone engineer a few days later telling him how well that thing drove when I put it on highway for a little joy ride. He asked me how much mileage? When I told him he gave me some advice. Change the timing belt per the recommendation in the owner's manual. He didn't and it cost him over $3,000 when the timing belt broke and the pistons ruined the valves and heads too! I had it changed a few weeks later.

We have a 2003 Accord and we are going to have it changed in the next month or so.

JohnT Fitzgerald
11-30-2010, 5:27 PM
With all those issues, I say jack up the dome light and put a new car underneath it. Most of those issues make for a dangerous car IMO (cat converter, airbags, and bad brakes).


Check the owner's manual for the car and follow it.

+1 on this. A friend had a car given to him by his F-I-L. Timing belt was supposed to be replaced every 60K miles. it broke at 125K or so. When he told his F-I-L that it broke, he (the FIL) asked if he just went over 120K miles, because he had originally replaced it at 60K and it should have been 'due' at 120K.

I would seriously consider driving it till it dies (which WILL be at the worse possible moment), or junking it now and getting what you can for it, and getting a safer used car.

Dan Friedrichs
11-30-2010, 7:09 PM
I would seriously consider driving it till it dies (which WILL be at the worse possible moment), or junking it now and getting what you can for it, and getting a safer used car.

I like this advice! :)


I am planning on doing the brakes (I can handle that), and having the dealer look at the airbags (made the appointment today). While they are looking at the airbags, we will be wandering through their used vehicle lot....

Rod Sheridan
11-30-2010, 7:09 PM
Dan, fix the safety issues and drive it till it dies.

Yes, replacing the timing belt is prudent, as others have said it's far less expensive than all the valve/piston damage that will result from a broken belt.

I normally change mine as per the manufacturers recommendations, however it may not be a wise investment on a vehicle in this poor shape.


Regards, Rod.

Bill Cunningham
11-30-2010, 10:21 PM
The belt on my Hyundai Accent broke at 160k I lucked out, when the belt went, the engine obviously stopped, but it also killed all electrical power, the transmission instantly disengaged and the car coasted to the side of the road. Cost me about $200.00 to replace it, no other damage done.. The last Accent I had, I replaced the belt at 120k and it looked like new, still have it hanging on a nail in the shop.. And YES, I agree with Dan.. I have NEVER had a timing 'chain' break.. But if all these rice boxes had chains, how would the poor suffering dealer ever make a buck:mad:

Jim O'Dell
11-30-2010, 10:25 PM
If you do end up looking for another car, see if you can find one with a timing chain... those never need to be replaced. My S2000 has one of those...

I wouldn't say never. I had a '74 Toyota Celica GT that lost a timing chain while I was driving it. Manual trans kept the motor turning. :eek: :( Had about 100k miles on it at the time. Did a good job on the head and valves. Pistons were ok. Seems like it cost me a little over 2 grand to fix, and that was in 1985 or so, and the work was done by some former Toyota mechanics that went out on their own, one of which lived a door or 2 down from my parents, so I got a good price. Jim.

Jeff Monson
11-30-2010, 10:31 PM
Dan, you didnt specify if its a V6 or a 4 cyl. Either way Honda recemmonds them at 105K, the nice thing on either one is it wont do major damage if it breaks. The 4 cyl. is listed as an interference engine, but I have yet to see one bend valves. We have replaced tons of timing belts on Honda's in my shop, from late 80's to current. You shouldnt have to replace it at 70k, but many dealers will try to sell them earlier. It also shouldnt run you more than $400.00 for the timing belt and the balance shaft belt, a little more if you want the water pump changed, but nowhere near 1K$. 1990-1993 and 1998-2002 were some great years for Accords.

Ken Fitzgerald
11-30-2010, 10:40 PM
I had to replace a timing chain on an '86 4-Runner. It had 120,000 miles on it. You could actually hear it slapping the timing chain cover at idle speeds. When I replaced it, I found the evidence marks on the inside of the cover.

Callan Campbell
11-30-2010, 11:01 PM
I wouldn't say never. I had a '74 Toyota Celica GT that lost a timing chain while I was driving it. Manual trans kept the motor turning. :eek: :( Had about 100k miles on it at the time. Did a good job on the head and valves. Pistons were ok. Seems like it cost me a little over 2 grand to fix, and that was in 1985 or so, and the work was done by some former Toyota mechanics that went out on their own, one of which lived a door or 2 down from my parents, so I got a good price. Jim. Mercedes-Benz suffered some short lived timing chains years ago, and I remember Nissan, [Datsun back then] had some timing chain issues too. On the whole though, Dan H.'s musings about timing chain life are well founded when compared to the constant service interval life of rubber timing belts. It's also interesting that timing belts are really not being used nearly as much in new engine design as they used to be. Timing chains have made a big comeback due to the very cramped engine compartments and the need for steady emissions controls out of the tailpipe even as the engine ages on complex multi-cam, multi-valve engines of todays vehicles.

Ron Jones near Indy
11-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Next door neighbor didn't change the timing belt on his Honda. Bad decision cost him about $2.5K. Personally I don't understand why people rave about how great Hondas are when they have this inherent problem. :confused:

Ken Fitzgerald
11-30-2010, 11:50 PM
Ron,

It's not just Honda. Toyota recommends it too at specific mileage.

I'd rather the manufacturer advise me to do it before the critical expensive damage occurs than to not advise me and let me find out on my own.

Newer engines run under tighter specs these day to meet emission standards. The little 4 cylinder engines are running hard to take us down the road at freeway speeds.

Some of the engines have chains and they don't require changing as often but still do.

Some have belts and require changing due to the difference in materials from which they are made.


Edited....RON...I went and checked the owners manual Online for a 2010 Chevrolet Aveo....scheduled maintenance at 100,000.....change the timing belt....and adjust valve clearance.....US manufacturers are recommending it too.

Bryan Morgan
12-01-2010, 12:36 AM
If you do end up looking for another car, see if you can find one with a timing chain... those never need to be replaced. My S2000 has one of those...

Not entirely true. The Toyota 22RE engine has notorious timing chain issues. They stretch and eventually cut into the coolant channels. Its a single timing chain setup. A popular mod is to replace it with a dual chain setup from the 20R which has no timing chain issues that I know of. I've had both engines in various trucks.

Bryan Morgan
12-01-2010, 12:45 AM
I had to replace a timing chain on an '86 4-Runner. It had 120,000 miles on it. You could actually hear it slapping the timing chain cover at idle speeds. When I replaced it, I found the evidence marks on the inside of the cover.

I know that sound. It sounds like rocks bouncing around and empty soda can. :) At least you can put after market steel guide rails if you don't want to go the dual chain route. Good thing you caught it before it chewed through the cover and got coolant in the crank case.

Ken Fitzgerald
12-01-2010, 12:53 AM
Bryan....the 22RE was the engine I had in that '86 4-Runner. Great engine. Solid..........I was talking with a Toyota Mechanic one day. I told hiim I was changing the timing chain. He asked how many miles. I told him ...119,000 IIRC. He said " You change your oil regularly don't you?" He said people who didn't check and maintain the oil level were lucky to get 65,000-70,000 miles. People who did did change it occasionally got 90,000 miles. Anybody who got over 100,000 to the timing chain checked and changed their oil regularly.

Matt Meiser
12-01-2010, 7:47 AM
I'd be surprised if any vehicle with a belt doesn't have some recommended interval whether engine damage results or not. No one wants it breaking in the middle of the freeway at rush hour or on some back road in the middle of the night. Its a belt--eventually its going to break.

David Weaver
12-01-2010, 7:56 AM
I had a 2005 accord v6 and manuals for it. They included the 4 cylinder. The engines were similar, though not identical to the generation that the OP is talking about.

In my manual, the timing belt change was suggested at 105,000 for the 6 cylinder and 110,000 for the 4 cylinder.

Most cars have a suggestion around 100,000 somewhere. I'd let it go for a while, especially on a car as iffy as that.

Everything's different on different brands. My wife's turbocharged jetta service manual originally said 100,000 miles for the timing belt, but VW issued a revision to 60,000 miles. I guess they had a lot of failures. I'm not sure how a turbocharger would affect that, maybe it was the owners of the turbocharged cars (though 99 percent of people who own them still probably don't push them to a point it would make a difference).

VW recommends a 10K oil change in their non-turbo cars (even on fossil), so it's not like they're notorious for overdoing scheduled maintenance (except for their 10k mile "checkup" where they don't really do anything other than give you a bullet-point listing of things they "checked").

George Bokros
12-01-2010, 12:41 PM
The early Ford Escorts had interference engines also. My cousin had one and the belt broke and took out three valves and a little head damage. My son had an Escort and we replaced his timing belt on the recommended schedule. About two months later the water pump decided to freeze up and took out the timing belt. If your water pump is driven by the timing belt I would replace it and anything else that is driven by the timing belt to save doing it again. Pay the labor once.

George

Ben Franz
12-01-2010, 1:03 PM
Had a 2000 CRV belt changed at 110,000 miles along with the water pump. The cost at the local Honda dealer was $5-600 IIRC. Seemed like a reasonable cost for preventative maintenance in a vehicle that was good for another 100K miles or more. An accident in 2008 reulted in total loss but the insurance adjuster added in 80% orf the cost to the settlement calculation. I was amazed.

Pat Germain
12-01-2010, 6:42 PM
I My wife's turbocharged jetta service manual originally said 100,000 miles for the timing belt, but VW issued a revision to 60,000 miles. I guess they had a lot of failures. I'm not sure how a turbocharger would affect that, maybe it was the owners of the turbocharged cars (though 99 percent of people who own them still probably don't push them to a point it would make a difference).

Dave, what year is your wife's Jetta? I drive a 2003 turbo Jetta. I've never seen or heard anything other than the 100,000 mile belt change. Thanks.

Ron Jones near Indy
12-01-2010, 7:33 PM
Is the use of a timing belt rather than a timing chain purely economic--lower price? Ken, my point on this is why do manufacturers build interference type engines? A broken timing belt or chain on one of these engines is a major problem. Why not engineer this problem out of the engine in the first place?

Ken Fitzgerald
12-01-2010, 8:06 PM
Ron,

I think it has to do with overhead valves and valve placement within a head to get the most efficient placement of the fuel with respect to the spark for proper ignition to aid in improving fuel efficiency.

Pat Germain
12-01-2010, 8:06 PM
Is the use of a timing belt rather than a timing chain purely economic--lower price? Ken, my point on this is why do manufacturers build interference type engines? A broken timing belt or chain on one of these engines is a major problem. Why not engineer this problem out of the engine in the first place?

The use of a belt rather than a chain isn't really an economical decision. A chain itself isn't any more expensive than a belt. And assembling the engine with a belt isn't any easier before the engine is put into the car. It's actually based on the design of the engine. And belts do have some advantages. NASCAR engines, for example, use a belt to drive the camshaft. Belts are more precise and provide dampening for the valve train.

Higher performance engines tend to be "interference" engines. They often have four valves per cylinder and are higher compression. They are built with closer tolerances. Therefore, if the belt breaks, valves and pistons are going to crash into one another.

Bikers may recall when Harley Davidson switched to belt drive back in the early 1980s. Many people were critical and believed a belt could never outperform a chain. However, HD still uses the belt-driven system and it has proved superior.

Bob Turkovich
12-01-2010, 8:39 PM
Good discussion so far but you guys are missing two big reasons for going to belt vs. chain.

First, chains require lubrication. This results in the chain being enclosed underneath a sealed, structural cover on the front of the engine - usually a die cast aluminum part. You end up having a large circumference to seal - and typically that sealing surface isn't in one plane - a sealing nightmare. The OEM's look for ways to reduce seal surface area and, hence, minimize leak potential.

Second, chains are noisy - very noisy. Now you're putting that noise source in a metal box - between the engine block and the cover. The cover ends up acting like a speaker. The ringing noise can be (and has been) major customer dissatisfaction issues in the past. OEM engineers have gone as far as putting deadener patches on the inside of the cover or even going to a sandwich-type cover to reduce the noise.

Chain suppliers have been working on quiet chain designs but - when I retired two years ago - they were extremely expensive and unproven in durability.

Pat Germain
12-01-2010, 8:57 PM
Oh yeah, excellent points, Bob.

I remember in the late 1970s Ford installed nylon timing chains and gears in at least some of their V8 engines to make them more quiet. Not surprisingly, those nylon parts didn't last long. Those timing chains were notorious for jumping.

Jeff Monson
12-01-2010, 9:42 PM
Here's a couple more points.

Not all timing belt motors are interference engines, most toyota's, a good percentage of honda's, alot of euro's, some domestics.

Interference engines come into play when the need for more performance, and tighter tolerences are needed for an engine.

Every car maker out there (has at least one if not more) inherit timing chain motors that have major issues with the chain portion of the engine. These problems became worse with overhead valve engines, the chains are longer and require tensioners. Also variable cam timing has thrown problems into the mix.

If you own a car with a timing belt, look for the mfgs. recemmonded interval, its pay now or pay alot later in most cases.

I dont really think there is a superior way to drive the cam, neither a belt or chain are trouble free in most cases.

I see the future of auto's going to electronic actuated valves, its already in indy car technology. Just a matter of time before we see them on a daily driver.

Jeff Monson
12-01-2010, 9:45 PM
Oh yeah, excellent points, Bob.

I remember in the late 1970s Ford installed nylon timing chains and gears in at least some of their V8 engines to make them more quiet. Not surprisingly, those nylon parts didn't last long. Those timing chains were notorious for jumping.


Dont forget the 2.5 gm!! They had a nylon cam gear that was pressed on, was amazing though how many miles some lasted before they needed to be swapped out. That was a tough little 4 cylinder, especially considering how many were produced.

Ron Jones near Indy
12-01-2010, 9:46 PM
Very interesting discussion here. Thanks for the info.

David Weaver
12-01-2010, 10:24 PM
Dave, what year is your wife's Jetta? I drive a 2003 turbo Jetta. I've never seen or heard anything other than the 100,000 mile belt change. Thanks.

Pat, it is a 2004. I got married to my wife in 2006 and took over working on her car since the VW dealer is somewhat confiscatory when they get a whiff of a few dollars.

I can't remember who the service update is from, Bentley publishing or something. They claimed their manual is the official print manual (it is a good manual, similar in quality to the honda service manual I had, and 4 or 6 times as thick as a chilton type manual).

Edit: just dug through the manual. The addendum is listed as an "editor's note", no clue what the basis for the change is. It states on the back that it is the official service manual. 4 to 6 times as thick as a chilton manual might be a conservative estimate. My manual version was printed in 2007, and the advice for the 1.8T covers all 1.8Ts back to 1999.

Walt Nicholson
12-01-2010, 10:49 PM
The NADA average trade value for the car is just under $6,000. Subtract about $2,000 for rebuilt title and you are down to $4,000 minus all that is needed to put it in "average" condition. It seems that a better way to go would be to take the car, the $1,000 you are going to spend on the belt change and the other money you are going to spend on the air bag, brakes, etc. and use all of that to buy yourself a better vehicle. ;)

Pat Germain
12-01-2010, 11:34 PM
Pat, it is a 2004. I got married to my wife in 2006 and took over working on her car since the VW dealer is somewhat confiscatory when they get a whiff of a few dollars.

I can't remember who the service update is from, Bentley publishing or something. They claimed their manual is the official print manual (it is a good manual, similar in quality to the honda service manual I had, and 4 or 6 times as thick as a chilton type manual).

Edit: just dug through the manual. The addendum is listed as an "editor's note", no clue what the basis for the change is. It states on the back that it is the official service manual. 4 to 6 times as thick as a chilton manual might be a conservative estimate. My manual version was printed in 2007, and the advice for the 1.8T covers all 1.8Ts back to 1999.

Thanks. The information I have says VW modified the recommendation from 60,000 to 100,000 for changing the timing belt. My Jetta has just over 81,000 miles. So, I'm either on thin ice or good for another 20,000 miles. :confused:

Jason Roehl
12-02-2010, 9:36 AM
I see the future of auto's going to electronic actuated valves, its already in indy car technology. Just a matter of time before we see them on a daily driver.

I wonder when this concept was first put to paper. I had tossed the idea around in my head about 10 years ago as I was working on a vehicle, figuring it would greatly simplify the mechanical portion of an engine. I had not previously heard of the idea, but figured someone in the automotive field would have already thought of it if it wasn't already being researched/developed.

Assuming the valves are controlled by some sort of solenoid, it would be interesting to see what additional electrical demands that puts on an alternator, as well as what sort of electromagnetic interference the solenoids would generate.

Dan Hintz
12-02-2010, 9:48 AM
I thought Audi had a production vehicle that used elec. valves. I know the companies have been working on it for quite a number of years, but making it cheap enough for your average Toyota has been difficult, to say the least.

Marty Paulus
12-02-2010, 10:36 AM
The driving it unitl it drops is the best advice I am seeing. Save the $1k and but another car with it when this one dies. Continue to save. When you get another $500-$1000 saved sell the $1000 car for $1000 and buy a $1500-$2000 car. Continue until you have a reliable running car. The basis for this is that when you get much below $5000 for a car it doesn't lose value very fast. You can usually sell it for what you paid for it.

David Ramsey suggests this in one of his books as a way to build up to nicer cars.

Stephen Tashiro
12-02-2010, 10:42 AM
On some cars, it's possible to inspect the timing belt without as much disassembly as it takes to replace it. If a shop inspects the belt, I will suppose they will tilt toward replacing it since they would be blamed if they said the belt was OK and it broke. But if inspection is simple on your model of car, you could do it yourself.

Bob Turkovich
12-02-2010, 11:49 AM
On some cars, it's possible to inspect the timing belt without as much disassembly as it takes to replace it. If a shop inspects the belt, I will suppose they will tilt toward replacing it since they would be blamed if they said the belt was OK and it broke. But if inspection is simple on your model of car, you could do it yourself.

Not quite sure how good of an inspection you could do. You might be able to check for fraying but I certainly wouldn't think you could do a good check for belt tension/tensioner performance. If the belt skips due to tension issues (belt stretch or tensioner problems) you'll have either (best case) a rough engine or (worse case - interference engine) you're walking home.

Bryan Morgan
12-02-2010, 3:36 PM
I thought Audi had a production vehicle that used elec. valves. I know the companies have been working on it for quite a number of years, but making it cheap enough for your average Toyota has been difficult, to say the least.


Mercedes KDI EV, Toyota Valvematic, theres a homebuilt thing called the EVIC... I don't know which production cars actually use this technology.

Pat Germain
12-02-2010, 6:51 PM
Caterpillar has developed diesel engines which use hydraulically actuated valves. A computer controls the hydraulics which controls the valve timing. Like electronically actuated valves, the lift and duration combinations are infinite.

Chuck Gallup
12-04-2010, 11:29 AM
I have a 1991 Toyota pickup. The only thing wrong with the truck is what I have done to it.
Its never been into the shop for other than wear and tear items and normal maintenance....which included regular fluid and filter changes and...changing the belt every 60K miles. But sometimes it goes 80K or 90k. (I feel guilty like I've cheated on my wife)

I have almost 400K miles and it still runs, drives and serves me as good as new.
I've had no truck payment since 1995.

I do my own belts. I've never seen a bad belt. They have bad belts at the local shop. Mechanic's liens usually ensue. Poor maintenance actually costs more than no maintenance.

One day you are driving down the road...the next you are looking for transportation you can't afford.

Leasing is for people poor at taking care of stuff.

Pat Germain
12-04-2010, 11:47 AM
Leasing is for people poor at taking care of stuff.

As well as people who always need a new car to impress clients; such as Realtors and stock brokers. :)

Bob Turkovich
12-04-2010, 5:58 PM
Leasing is for people poor at taking care of stuff.


As well as people who always need a new car to impress clients; such as Realtors and stock brokers. :)

Getting a bit OT here but leasing is getting a bum rap. I currently have 3 vehicles for my family - 2 are leased and one is owned.

I have been a car nut for 55 of my near 60 years and spent my entire 36 year career in automotive engineering at one of the Big 3 (mostly in Powertrain). I think I know how to take care of cars. ;)

I'm currently a retiree so I'm not out to impress anyone with my vehicles other than myself. :D

My decision to lease vs. buy was purely financial based upon the time I needed a new vehicle. The lease deals can vary between geographic locations - the Detroit area seems to have more advantageous lease opportunities.