Fair Competition piece, copyright infringement?

[Andrew Gibson]

OK I thought I would ask this here as it is directly related to a project I have completed.
Some of you may remember my Hello Kitty rocker. I am planning on entering that chair in the state fair. I don't expect to win but it only costs $2 so why not.
My problem is that Hello kitty, I would assume, is a copyrighted image.
the Chair was a gift so my money was made so I say no infringement has been... committed?

Not looking for definitive legal advise, just some opinions. do you think there may be legal ramifications for entering this piece in a public competition?
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk294/handyandy3459/100_1280-1.jpg

[Don Bullock]

First of all, that's a cute chair. I bet there is a little girl who loves it.

Many people think that only if money is made on a project that it affects copyright infringement. That isn't true. Anytime someone copies anything that is copyrighted it is an infringement of that copyright. Having said that I don't think it will affect the fair entry unless it's mentioned on the entry form. There is a remote risk, however, of having someone view your chair and relaying the information to the copyright holder. I know for example that Disney is very protective of their copyright images. They do take people to court. I have no knowledge about who holds the Hello Kitty image rights. no, I'm not an attorney nor a spokesperson for one. I did research on copyright as part of my Master's degree studies.

[Andrew Gibson]

Thanks Don for the quick response. My opinion is similar to yours. If I was taken to court I don't have anything for them to take accept for student loan dept and my tools. So If they want to take my fret saw so I can't do it again I guess I could live with that.

I am going to ask a couple lawyers I know what there opinions are.

[Charles Wiggins]

My problem is that Hello kitty, I would assume, is a copyrighted image. the Chair was a gift so my money was made so I say no infringement has been... committed?

Andrew,

As I've said before, whether you profit or not does not determine if there is an infringement. It just makes the possible penalties worse if you do profit. I am assuming that since you are asking the question you did not get permission from Sanrio before you copied, so only way this is NOT an infringement is IF it falls under "Fair Use." Fair Use is not cut and dry but the courts are much less favorable when the work that was copied was creative in nature and if any profit is made as a result of the copying. I think it would be an easy case to make that you were using Sanrio's image to try and "profit" because you entered the item in a contest. Even if the prize is not monetary, they could always go after the potential market exposure angle. (I'm not saying that's what you're doing, I'm just trying to think like a fire-breathing attorney.)

I cannot say for sure what would happen, maybe nothing, and I have no idea how litigious Sanrio is, but if they are anything like Disney you could be getting all sorts of cease and desist orders or a court summons if this thing makes the news. I tend to err on the cautious side, so personally, I wouldn't enter it. I would just keep it as a friendly personal gift, out of the limelight.

My 2 cents,
Charles

[Glenn Vaughn]

I have a feeling that Sanrio would come after you if they were to find out you were exhibiting the chair.

"Official" site for Hello Kitty
http://www.sanrio.com/

From their FAQ's:
Can I use your characters on my homepage?

Our characters are copyrighted and we cannot give permission to use them on personal homepages. We hope to provide artwork of that nature in the future.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

Tweak the image if it concerns you.

It's a CAT! Move the bow! Put some stripes on it. (the cat or the bow)

What are they going to do?

Say, "That's exactly like ours.... except different!" :)

[Gene Howe]

Your $2.00 entry fee may buy you much more in aggravation.

[Thomas Bank]

First question - did you imprint the fabric and paint the HK image on the chair yourself?

I'm actually assuming that the fabric was bought commercially. Is the image an applique (decal or otherwise)? If both the fabric and image were acquired commercially and then applied to the chair, I don't see any copyright infringement.

If you created the image on both the back of the chair and on the fabric, I can see some limited potential for an issue. But even there, if for personal use (built for a niece or friend's daughter or such) rather than commercial production I doubt that you are going to run into issues.

[Andrew Gibson]

Thanks for all the replies and the scenarios all.
I ran this buy a Lawyer friend this afternoon as well and he suggested that it would not be worth the trouble if something did arise. Therefore I think I am not going to inter the chair in the contest. maybe I will make another chair similar next year to inter, accept for the fact that I am burnt out on chairs right now I have time to make another before the fair, I just have to submit entry by the 13th.

Thomas the kitty in the headrest in Inlay, I found an image on Google and used it as a template so to speak. The fabric was purchased commercially.

[Larry Fox]

I am not a lawyer so I am gonna take a different stance on this one. I think the chair is really a nice piece that you should enter into the fair and stand next to it with pride. You are not trying to make money on it or sell a bunch of them. If someone wants to get upset about it and report you to whomever for using their image I say let them. What is their recourse for using the image? I have seen about a thousand really really bad Road Runner tattoos (for example) over the years and I don't think the copyright holder has come after them and want to talk about abuse of the image .....

[Brian Kent]

In the future, you could draw your own cat-face without the tilted red ribbon. Nobody owns a copyright on drawings of cat faces, just on that very particular style.

[Craig Michael]

I would enter it. This isn't a long term infringement such as using it as a store logo, etc. If you were to get a cease and desist letter (doubtful) then you don't enter it again, but you wouldn't anyways.

Lawyers are super risk averse, so asking that lawyer was a waste in that you know that's what they would say.

[Greg Dekeyser]

I think you're actually covered by "fair use"

the nature of the use you intend is not competing with the company or people who have rights to the image.

it's a one-off piece...not mass produced and intended for sale

and it's use would have no impact on the market of the original.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Not a lawyer...but I'm sure you're fine.

[Don Jarvie]

Enter it. Your not selling it nor giving it away. You enter it, win and go home. If someone asks if its for sale you say no, but you can make the "Hello Andy" chair with your own design.

I'm not a lawyer and slept in my own bed last night.

Hope you win.

[Pat Barry]

I would not enter this into a public competition. If its for your own personal use, that is something, but commercialized use like you are describing is copyright infringement. You can't safely make an altered copy either if it reminds everyone of hello kitty. That is just as much infringement of copywright as a direct copy.

[Doug Carpenter]

This is unrelated but it reminds me of a story.

Years ago before I was married I dated a girl who was in collage for costume design.

They were always doing the lesbain perspective shows. They had been working on a Batman and Robin show. I can't remember if they were boys or girls or what but they had been working on it for a while.

The day it was to open a lawyer showed up from warner bros. or something and put the brakes on the whole thing.

I was surprised that they were busted because I have seen a landscaper with the tasmanian devel on his truck and a daycare center with Loony tunes and characters in their name.

i guess you never know.

I would guess since you aren't selling it, I would hope it is no biggie.

Nice chair by the way.:)

[Tom Scott]

I don't think it matters if you're trying to sell it or not. My company recently had an entry in a local CanStruction event (Google it...it's very cool). This is where you build something out of cans of food and then all the food is donated to a local food bank. So, only for a charity cause. Anyway, we built a likeness of a toy. I won't say the name of the company, but we did receive a cease and desist letter from their corporate attorney and were asked to take it down immediately from the mall it was featured in.
If you enter your chair, you may not be caught. But if you are, your likeness is way too good for it not to be a copyright infringement.

[Greg Dekeyser]

I wonder if the commercially available fabric would change anything....

since your fabric has the likeness already on it....and you are free to use that since you bought it commercially.

Would it matter if you added an additional picture?

not sure. :-P

but still I think its covered by fair use.

[Andrew Gibson]

Thanks everyone. I have decided that it's just not worth the potential hassle to inter this chair. I may decide to make another chair and enter it next year. I just dont want to make another right now.

I have a couple of other pieces I plan to enter. One is a cabinet and the other is a table... I am also planning a table that I can enter in stead of the table I will post. I am planning a 5 drawer table out of cherry and sycamore. I have a nice cherry board for the top and I have a couple sources I think for some 8/4 cherry for the legs, and I have to make a phone call to see if I can get the Sycamore. If the table does not pan out I still enter 2 pieces in the competition that I am happy with. Do I think I will win with either, not really but in reality I think the overall fit and finish of the 2 are a little better then the chair... that might be splitting hairs though.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk294/handyandy3459/portfolio/100_0594.jpghttp://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk294/handyandy3459/portfolio/100_0867.jpg

[Don Bullock]

Very nice gun cabinet and table!!! Certainly no copyright problems there. I really like your work!!!

[Michael Moscicki]

One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords. This right is subject to certain limitations found in sections 107 through 118 of the copyright law (title 17, U. S. Code (http://www.copyright.gov/title17)). One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” The doctrine of fair use has developed through a substantial number of court decisions over the years and has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law.

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:


The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
The nature of the copyrighted work
The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

The distinction between fair use and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.
The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”
Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself. It does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work.
The safest course is always to get permission from the copyright owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission.
When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of fair use would clearly apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither determine if a certain use may be considered fair nor advise on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attorney.


I'd have to agree with what the laywer said. However, I doubt they would do anything as it would cost more in legal fees that what they would get from you.

If you still want an entry this year, you can just lightly sand off the Hello Kitty and re-finish it. Maybe add some other cat design that isn't copyrighted later.

[Andrew Gibson]

I'd have to agree with what the laywer said. However, I doubt they would do anything as it would cost more in legal fees that what they would get from you.

If you still want an entry this year, you can just lightly sand off the Hello Kitty and re-finish it. Maybe add some other cat design that isn't copyrighted later.


Thanks for the info Mike, however the image is an inlay and will not simply sand out. also I would fight in court before i removed it... I could sneak in under the educational purpose as I documented the build here for others to lean the skills of working with hand tools. he is a link to my build thread... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=149323

that being said I am sourcing materials for a new table to be built for the fair, I am excited about it and can inter either the table above or the one I am planning, which gives me options.

[Craig Michael]

I think it would be a violation of the copyright. But what is going to happen to him? At most he'll get a cease and desist letter and that's the end of it. It's not like the company is going to file a lawsuit. The thing with copyright law is companies are forced to always protect their copyright, so they look at any violation as violation, no matter how serious.

But this company would not have suffered any real damage.

[Jay Allen]

I'm actually assuming that the fabric was bought commercially. Is the image an applique (decal or otherwise)? If both the fabric and image were acquired commercially and then applied to the chair, I don't see any copyright infringement.

That is exactly how I see it. If the images were "bought" the license fee was paid to the copyright holder by the manifacturer.

The fact that is is an inlay that you made is an issue. It may not be a problem, in this particular case, but it's probably not worth the potential hassle.

[Joe Shinall]

Well just my 2 cents. I really doubt someone that works for the company is going to be there and say anything to the owner of the company.

But anyways, I think the table or gun cabinet is a great choice for the fair. I really like the style.

[Maik Tobin]

Enter it. There are two types of infringement issues here, one is creating confusion in the marketplace, the other involves loss of income to the owner. Penalties for infringement are generally assesed as a percentage of profits made. Since I do not think you are affecting either of these two issues, go ahead.
Does anyone really believe that the owner is going to waste their time persuing this? I seriously doubt it as there would be little to gain.

Shame on the lawyer you spoke to. Not much real life experience I assume.

[Todd Crawford]

It's still against the copyright laws.

[Eric DeSilva]

Shame on the lawyer you spoke to. Not much real life experience I assume.

I've seen State Troopers wandering around a state fair seizing products that had the logo of a large US motorcycle manufacturer but weren't licensed. I don't have any way of knowing, but I doubt the owners of the seized property got sued by the motorcycle manufacturer. I also doubt they got their property back either--my sneaking suspicion is that if they tried, they would have been sued.

So, while Sanrio may be less likely to police state fairs, the risk it seems to me that has to be balanced isn't damages, but the risk the chair might be seized and that he might not have any real leverage to get it back, rightly or wrongly. Just tryin' to be pragmatic.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I've seen State Troopers wandering around a state fair seizing products that had the logo of a large US motorcycle manufacturer but weren't licensed.

That's sad. Say's a lot for this country, huh? :o

[Tom Hargrove]

I am a lawyer, but you should not construe what I say as legal advice, since I don't work in the intellectual property area, which includes copyrights.

I will say that the likelihood of getting "caught" is probably small, and even if you do, the worse thing that will likely happen is that you will receive a cease and desist letter. If you cease and desist, no big deal.

But don't you think you should respect the copyright owner's rights to the extent that they exist? If I understand your initial post correctly, your position is that "I don't know (care) if this violates the owner's rights, I want to know if the Sawmill Creek community thinks I can get away with it." How would you feel if someone borrowed/stole your chair design (which is a great design) and mass produced it without any recognition of your efforts, or compensation to you?

Further, even if you have "nothing to get," I can't imagine you want the hassle, and perhaps notoriety, of being the defendant in an infringement lawsuit. Once you have been involved in a lawsuit, you will learn the only people who like lawsuits are lawyers. Just ask the people that have allegedly downloaded or shared music on the internet without permission from the owners, and have been sued as a result. When they did it (I should say allegedly did it), I imagine they didn't think it was a big deal, and getting sued would be a longshot . . ..

[Curt Harms]

I don't think it matters if you're trying to sell it or not. My company recently had an entry in a local CanStruction event (Google it...it's very cool). This is where you build something out of cans of food and then all the food is donated to a local food bank. So, only for a charity cause. Anyway, we built a likeness of a toy. I won't say the name of the company, but we did receive a cease and desist letter from their corporate attorney and were asked to take it down immediately from the mall it was featured in.
If you enter your chair, you may not be caught. But if you are, your likeness is way too good for it not to be a copyright infringement.

Re the CanStruction situation, you'd have to comply. I would also be inclined to place a sign stating exactly WHY I was required to remove the display. Maybe if overzealous IP holders are seen as being legally correct but having corporate hearts that make Scrooge's look like 24K gold, they will use a little common sense in their enforcement.

[Roger Jensen]

Doesn't the copyright holder have the burden of enforcing the copyright at all times or lose the copyright? I don't think they can pick-and-choose when they decide to enforce it, even for a 'good cause'.

From my perspective, legal issues like this stopped being intuitive a long time ago...

[Bill Edwards(2)]

From my perspective, legal issues like this stopped being intuitive a long time ago...

LOL Yep! Somewhere around 1777 when we started deviating from English common law, or opened our first law school, which ever came first.:D

[Justin Bukoski]

Have you asked them if you could enter it?

[Don Alexander]

so let me get this straight.................... if the penalty isn't too bad and theres a reasonable chance that nobody will say anything then go ahead and do it even though you know that its definitely wrong?????????

WOW how do you explain that to your kids? whatever happened to not doing something BECAUSE its wrong, not because you are likely to get sued?

i have 1 word for all of you INTEGRITY it really does matter

[James Taglienti]

so let me get this straight.................... if the penalty isn't too bad and theres a reasonable chance that nobody will say anything then go ahead and do it even though you know that its definitely wrong?????????

WOW how do you explain that to your kids? whatever happened to not doing something BECAUSE its wrong, not because you are likely to get sued?

i have 1 word for all of you INTEGRITY it really does matter

I think that INTEGRITY is important and I have a strong desire to do what is good and right, but when it comes to such intricacies as copyrighted images and trademarks etc I really wouldn't have any qualms about providing a child with a pirated or illegally produced image of their favorite cartoon character.

You can't steal bread from a mouth that is already full.

[Don Alexander]

theft is theft regardless of who you steal it from or what it is that you take

[Bill Edwards(2)]

theft is theft regardless of who you steal it from or what it is that you take

You need to jump over to this thread and bash on this guy for awhile:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=153952

[Mark Hulette]

You need to jump over to this thread and bash on this guy for awhile:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=153952

Sorry but seems you are comparing apples to oranges here... the guy in the link isn't entering the Transformer in a competition. If he were, it would be the same but it's not.

There are (almost) no new ideas under the sun so by your comparison, the vast majority of projects we as woodworkers make for our personal use falls under the same issue. Sorry, doesn't fly with me.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

Sorry but seems you are comparing apples to oranges here... the guy in the link isn't entering the Transformer in a competition. If he were, it would be the same but it's not.

There are (almost) no new ideas under the sun so by your comparison, the vast majority of projects we as woodworkers make for our personal use falls under the same issue. Sorry, doesn't fly with me.

I didn't ask you to fly,

I was being sardonic.

Many posters see this as an absolute (it's stealing). If that's so, making a
copyrighted toy is stealing from the company that makes them (which I
don't really believe)

And the gentleman that started this post has already siad, he's taking
all this fine legal "advise" and not entering the chair.

[Andrew Gibson]

Wow I am surprised that this thread is still getting attention. I guess that I should mention that the only reason I was considering entering the Piece in the fair is because I had several people in my woodworking club and elsewhere encourage me to do so.
I would not have considered this chair competition worthy.
That being said the chair was made for family the whole copyright issue did not cross my mind until well after the chair was finished. If they want to come after me they need to go after the person who is hosting a non licenced image on the Internet.

[Don Alexander]

just to be clear i was not bashing anyone just voicing my surprise that there seems to be alot of "well yeah its wrong but do it anyway you probably won't get caught or if you do it will likely be a stop doing that type of thing" being expressed here in this thread.

i believe the OP was sincerely asking what he should do in good faith seeking to do the right thing what saddens me is the number of responses expressing the sentiment i put in quotes above

everyone has to live with their own conscience no basing just please think about it and do the right thing and advise others to do the right thing

for several reasons which you all are wise enough to understand :)

[Keith Christopher]

I have been refraining from replying to this thread and passing along information I got from a copyright lawyer who is sorta of a 'friend' of mine (he had me sign some paperwork when I was published a few years ago). simply because this is a 'hot topic' But it is way out of hand, there is a fine line here, one where you are selling your work based upon the brand. e.g. "hello kitty chair" _vs_ a chair that has a hello kitty applique and upholstery applied to it. Many of the seizures you see on infringement are based upon the premise that the item sold is being sold as a branded item. In the end, it is up to you and your conscience and your impression of your culpability.

[Rick Markham]

I like your chair Andrew! I say skip all the BS and worrying/wondering/ ethics etc. Make something entirely your own, use the inlay skills you have learned, do something spectacular (I know you can) and freakin win! You will feel better about it, won't have to worry, and it will be completely on your merit and craftsmanship. Trust me, you don't need ANY sort of brand recognition... Your work speaks for itself! Just my $.02. Besides by next year we should have no problems turning some killer spindles for whatever you want to do!

[Mark Rakestraw]

Three pages of replies and nobodies been enough of a smart alec to say "the contest is at the State Fair, therefore it's "fair use".

[keith jensen]

Where in the world has all of the common sense gone? Can someone convert to being Amish, is that even possible or do you have to be born Amish??

[Ron Potter]

My first post on this site. Thats a really nice chair. Using the Kitty is a nice touch but why not try to come up with either your own design or use a royalty free design. Copyright laws are serious and enforced . Money you may or may not get for this chair has nothing to do with copyright infringement. You have done nice work on this piece but displaying it publicly could open up a can of worms by using a copyright protected image on it.