Which oil varnish is best for brushing?

[george wilson]

For many years I have sprayed nitrocellulose lacquer on my guitars,or French polished them.

I decided to varnish the one I am completing now. Sherwin Williams USED TO have a great oil based NON POLYURETHANE varnish that we could thin with mineral spirits,and brush on so smooth you'd think it was sprayed.

I went last week and got a can of their current interior oil base varnish. It is horrible!!! It has a consistency like melted Gummy Bears. I don't know how else to describe it. You CAN't brush it on smooth,nor can you thin it out to do better. It piles up,and does NOT settle out smoothly at all.

I need an oil base varnish that can be RUBBED. you can't rub polyurethanes,because they always "gas" between layers. When you rub through their layers,you get a "topographic" looking map of the layering,called "gassing".

Has anyone had definite experience with a GLOSS varnish that goes on smooth,and can be rubbed out to a piano finish? Now that I've started with varnish,I can't go to lacquer. I hate to keep wasting over $15.00 per can for BAD VARNISH. I don't want to use Spar,as it is too yellow.

[Sean Hughto]

I'm no finishing expert, but I love Pratt & Lambert 38:

http://www.prattandlambert.com/products/homeowner/stains/interior/38-clear-alkyd-gloss/index.jsp

[Casey Gooding]

I haven't used it, but I've also heard good things about the P&L varnish.

[Frank Drew]

George,

I agree with Sean; I haven't used all that many varnishes, but the best results I've had, by far, were with Pratt & Lambert (I think it was 38). Dries bright and hard, and polishes out very nicely. I'd like to think that they've kept the quality the same since I last used it some years ago.

[David Dalzell]

I have used both Pratt & Lambert 38 and Behlens Rock Hard finishes, Both gave excellent results. The important difference is that P&L 38 give a very clear (Neutral coloring) while Behlens Rock Hard give some darker coloration to the wood.

[Ernie Miller]

+1 on Pratt & Lambert 38 - great stuff, but it's getting hard to find.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

I've put a lot of Epifanes and Sikkens varnish on boat brightwork -- both are excellent products. Neither are hard and brittle like spar varnish. If I had to pick, I'd say Epifanes would get the nod for clarity.

[Frank Drew]

I've put a lot of Epifanes and Sikkens varnish on boat brightwork -- both are excellent products. Neither are hard and brittle like spar varnish. If I had to pick, I'd say Epifanes would get the nod for clarity.

Most exterior varnishes are long oil varnishes, and don't get as hard as short oil varnishes; I believe George wants to rub out (polish) his varnish to a bright finish, so needs one that dries hard and crisp.

[george wilson]

Yes,I will sand the finish out with 600 wet or dry and soapy water,and rub it to a high gloss with rubbing compound.

I don't mean to poo-poo your advice,but I have used Pratt & Lambert 38. It is not at all an interesting looking varnish. It has no depth to it,and looks cold. Behlen's "rock hard" varnish does not get very hard at all. I spoke with a chemist at Behlen,when I used to communicate regularly with them. He told me the varnish didn't get hard,it was given the name because it is alcohol resistant. I did try their rock hard varnish years ago.

You all are probably getting aggravated by my response,but these are my actual experiences with those products.

I would appreciate any further suggestions,though,ESPECIALLY products I could find LOCALLY. I want to get this guitar done, by Christmas if possible. That is just a goal I have set for myself.

I did make varnish for several years,but that was a long time ago,my equipment for it is scattered,and I don't want to get involved in any experiments that might craze or cause the guitar to come back.

I will mention that Tru-Oil is a beautiful finish. However,I had,years ago,finished a violin with it. MONTHS later,when I strung the violin up,after a time I saw that the feet of the bridge had sunk clear down to the bare wood !! Little dried spurts of Tru-Oil were around the feet of the bridge!! That violin was only strung MONTHS after the Tru-Oil was put on. Therefore,I'm afraid that the Tru-Oil might take a print from the fabric in a guitar case.

[Sean Hughto]

Why not get your "depth" and "interest" from some dewaxed shellac in amber or garnet or clear or any mix you want. Then add the P&L 38 as simple a polishable protective top coat? I typically have used my P&L varnish mixed with pure tung oil. It didn't lack for depth or interest or warmth, but perhaps would be unsuitable for an instrument with more oil added.

And, George, with the internet, anything can be delivered. Can't get much more local than your front door.

[george wilson]

Internet? What's that??:)

Actually,I think what I need to do is go to the store and open some varnish,and SEE if it has the gooey consistency of the SW I tried.

I SHOULD have just used my usual lacquer,but the unpredictable and cold weather was not being suitable. I had a rosewood guitar pop wide open back in the 60's when I took it out in too cold weather to spray it. Wish I had a spray booth.

[george wilson]

Sean and Frank,is there a GLOSS version of P&L 38? I have only seen it in flat,which Williamsburg kept in their main warehouse. The flattening agent may be adding some opacity. Maybe the gloss,if there is one,would be better.

[Ernie Miller]

Sean and Frank,is there a GLOSS version of P&L 38? I have only seen it in flat,which Williamsburg kept in their main warehouse. The flattening agent may be adding some opacity. Maybe the gloss,if there is one,would be better.

George,

Yes, there is a gloss version. I usually mix 70% satin with 30% gloss as a final coat. I've never used the flat version.

Ernie

[Steve Schoene]

Waterlox Gloss is another to consider. Much higher solids content than the Original/Sealer which is made for wiping, but quite brushable.

I do still miss Behlen's 4-hour Rubbing Varnish.

My google search for rubbing varnish revealed an interesting catalog item
http://www.farwestpaint.com/Catalog/AA1546.htm It's a gov't spec. rubbing varnish. I've not used it, nor do I know if one could buy less than a 55gal. drum.

[george wilson]

I have a can of OLD Luigi Nicoseco violin oil varnish from the 60's !! Maybe I'll open it and see if it still hardens o.k.. I used to use it a lot,but in the early 70's they changed the formulation9and lied about it). It became LAVENDER colored when viewed in a bottle(not in the thin layers on an instrument). Finally,I made them admit that they had changed the formula. They said they couldn't get the resins from Africa anymore. I quit using it.

One reason I don't want to make the varnish is that I don't think I can get GENUINE turpentine any more. It started to get harder to get even in the 70's. The stuff you get now is distilled out of ground up stumps. It smells oiler than the real turps"from the living pine"(which it used to say on cans of the REAL stuff. You can't make turpene resins from it,etc..I also used to use EDIBLE linseed oil,which is much clearer than hardware stuff. Not adulterated with driers,metals,etc.. Now,it costs a bunch just for a small bottle of it.

DON't try to put edible linseed oil on a project. It won't dry until it is polymerized. This is a dangerous process only done out of doors.

[Frank Drew]

I've only use the gloss Pratt & Lambert, and used it mostly on mahogany which I often dyed with bichromate of potash before finishing. I never thought the resulting finish lacked depth or interest, but then I never did a side by side comparison with other products.

I will say I never got results I wanted with Mohawk/Behlen's varnishes, either the Rock Hard or the 4 Hour Rubbing Varnish, but I thought their nitrocellulose lacquer was fine and I liked some other of their products, particularly the pure Tung Oil.

[George Beck]

Just a FYI, Pratt and Lambert is now owned by The Sherwin Williams Company. I believe they closed the long oil plant of P & L as well as theirs, but that is just rumor. Sherwin Williams Rexthane long oil varnish was at one time the best stuff out there.

oh btw, I spent 28 years with The Sherwin Williams Company.

George

[Charles Goodnight]

I am sadly glad to hear that other people are having trouble finding a good varnish. I thought everybody was keeping some big secret from me. I am however, also very sad to hear that P&L number 38 may no longer be available. Is Waterlox a good alternative, and if so, which one?

I am in the process of finishing something with a mixture of P&L #38 (gloss finish), boiled linseed oil and tung oil. It takes more than a day per coat to get it dry enough to sand, but it really has a very nice depth to the finish. As I said, I will be very sad if #38 goes away.

[george wilson]

I have no idea what Sherwin wms. did to their varnish. In the 80's I could brush it on,with a little mineral spirits,so smoothly it looked like it had been sprayed. Not,with this liquid GOO,you CAN't thin it enough to get the GOO texture out of it. No matter what I did,it would NOT go in smoothly.

I wish manufacturers would STOP IMPROVING their products when they have a good one already.

[Greg Wease]

George, the only varnish I have been able to rub out successfully (without the fear of cratering) is catalyzed varnish and that was sprayed rather than brushed.

Won't the heavier weight of varnish vs. nitrocellulose or shellac affect the tone of the guitar?

[Prashun Patel]

I have no idea what Sherwin wms. did to their varnish.

I believe a lot of manufacturers have reduced the amount of thinner and type of thinners used because of VOC and health concerns.

[Jeff Schmidt]

Waterlox high gloss is one of my favorite finishes. It is actually a polymerized tung oil, which is really to say that it is a tung oil/varnish mixture. You can knock the sheen down with steel wool and bring it to whatever level of lustre desired. After you have built up several coats, I recommend padding on the last few. I have found that it does take longer than one day to dry for sanding. It wears extremely well but I would give it some extra drying time before placing fabric or other items on it.

Two cautions.

[1] The satin version is horrible. I do not know what they add but it is cloudy and has a terrible and completely different smell.

[2] I used Tru Oil for years on gun stocks before I knew about Waterlox, and if I were a betting man....I would say that they are one in the same.

[george wilson]

I have a very OLD can of the Nicoseco violin varnish from the 60's,believe it or not. It is still liquid in the can. I will try it on a piece of practice wood and see if it still dries o.k..

Also,I have an old can of Ace tung oil varnish,which I did put on a piece of wood. I need to see it it dries,o.k.,and IF it can be rubbed. It seems like a good NORMAL varnish that brushes,or wipes on smoothly.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Prashun/Sean hit the nail right on the head. EPA regulations requiring a limit on VOCs caused every maker of varnishes, many of paints, and a whole industry (sheet metal) to change not only thier formulations but also their methods of applying coatings. In MA, the Foxoboro Company had just invested 3+ million dollars in a new sheet metal facility with spray booths and the government regulation made them decide not to even open it. They sold off all of the equipment for pennies (literally) on the dollar. No solvent based coating that has been on the market for years is the same as it was after the regulations came into effect in the late 1980s.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...

One reason I don't want to make the varnish is that I don't think I can get GENUINE turpentine any more. It started to get harder to get even in the 70's. The stuff you get now is distilled out of ground up stumps. It smells oiler than the real turps"from the living pine"(which it used to say on cans of the REAL stuff. You can't make turpene resins from it,etc...

Just for kicks I searched the net for "real turpentine" and came up with several results, one of which claims to be gum spirits and sold by Woodcraft (local to me).

Pam

[Prashun Patel]

What you may be smelling is a turpentine substitute, which is really made from petroleum products; it's more like mineral spirits than 'gum turpentine', which is still - and always has been - distilled from wood or wood byproducts like pulp.

But don't get fooled that turpentine was ever anything more than a byproduct potpourri of stumps/pulp/whathaveyou. It's the hotdog of wood product production.

We still buy pure gum, steam distilled turpentine from 'pine' trees for use in my industry.

[Zahid Naqvi]

George, you may want to post the same question in the project finishing forum, much broader audience.

[george wilson]

Oh,I didn't realize there was a finishing forum. Thanks,Zahid. I think the old violin varnish I have will see me through this guitar. Then,I'll just stick with my customary lacquer.

About turpentine,you actually could get turpentine labeled "from the living pine" when I was making varnish. It HAD to be thus labeled to be real. I can easily identify the real stuff by smell. It has a sharp smell that the common junk doesn't have. It began to be harder to get in the 70's.

[Steve Schoene]

[QUOTE=Jeff Schmidt;1571018]. It is actually a polymerized tung oil, which is really to say that it is a tung oil/varnish mixture.

Don't think so. Their documentation terms it a varnish. It is made using tung oil which modified chemically with phenolic resin to create a very good varnish, not a mix with tung oil.

[george wilson]

Well,I went to Ace hdwe. today. The ONLY varnish they had that WAS NOT poly were 2 miserable little cans of plain oil varnish. I opened a can,and tried the consistency with a wooden craft stick I brought along. It did not seem to be the strange snot consistency of the SW varnish,so I bought both cans. I'm thinking those MAY be the LAST 2 cans of NORMAL varnish I may be able get from them. All is polyurethane now,which you can't rub.

I'll give this varnish a try on some practice wood.

[Rick Markham]

George, I typically use a Tung oil varnish mix that I buy from Lowes. I'm pretty sure it will work for a rubbed finish it is worth a try. I have had great success with it, it is very light and thin like an oil and builds really well, and self levels very well too. It's at least worth a try, it also hardens to a very nice hard finish. It's "Formby's Traditional Tung Oil Finish" I buy the High gloss version. I'd give it a shot, it's about $7 for a pint of it.
---Rick

[george wilson]

Thanks,Rick. I am already trying a tung oil wiping varnish on a sample. Plus,I applied the Ace oil varnish on a sample,and it spread normally and laid out nice and flat. I'll have to see if it rubs o.k.. They want you to wait 48 hours between coats,which seems like a long time,but I'll comply. I need to be certain it will rub to a piano finish before I put it on the guitar.

[harry strasil]

I found this on the web it explains somewhat whats happening. I was looking what VOC stood for, Volatile organic compounds. I guess thats one reason I am glad I am no longer repairing farm machinery, because of all the chemicals the farmers use and the overspray gets on the machinery, some of it might make you sick if you ingested it, but when you heat it (flame cutting and arc welding) it turns into another state of matter (gas) that can make you really sick or kill you almost instantly.

Paints and coatings
A major source of man-made VOCs are solvents, especially paints and protective coatings. Solvents are required to spread a protective or decorative film. Approximately 12 billion liters of paints are produced annually. Typical solvents are aliphatic hydrocarbons, ethyl acetate, glycol ethers, and acetone. Motivated by cost, environmental concerns, and regulation, the paint and coating industries are increasingly shifting towards aqueous solvents

[harry strasil]

which reminds me of an old story, joke, whatever.

It seems the local blacksmith/weldor was out at the farmers shop repairing a piece of machinery and he couldn't get in a comfortable position to make a critical weld, so he asked the farmer for something to sit on. The farmer came up with an old metal 5 gallon can with one of those plastic pull out pore spout/lids which was missing and the farmer had used it to dump all sorts of things in and as a big gob of flux fell off the weld it went into the hole and a cloud of vapor came out and engulfed the old smith and he threw up his arms and fell off the can. The farmer immediately called 911 on his cell phone and as it was not far from town the ambulance showed up within 10 minutes and carted the old smith off to the hospital.
The farmer thought maybe he should take the can in so the Dr.'s could tell what caused him to pass out. After analysis, they gave the old smith 24 hours to live, as a last request just 3 hours before he was scheduled to secumb, he asked if his Dr., his lawyer and his CPA could be at his bedside.

When they arrived the Attorney asked the smith what they could do for him and he said, if it was good enough for the lord, it was good enough for him. They all gave him a strange look and he replied, when the lord died on the cross he was surrounded by thieves.

Just a joke nothing implied about anyone, but the part about the vapors is true, it happened to me, fortunately I had no ill effects that I know of, but it sure scared me.