Doweling

[Trevor Walsh]

I was reading some joint strength articles and those dowel-jig-people (not to discriminate) say that their dowel joints are as strong (or generally say the tests are bad if they are weaker) than M&T joints.

I'd just like to know, how do people feel about dowel joints? For the purists of hand tool work and hand cut joinery, is doweling ethically wrong for something like frame and panel construction or carcass work?

Starting a fire,

[Gary Curtis]

In theory, at least, a dowel joint is weak not because of the dowel. But because of the hole. Being round it is all end grain except for narrow strips along the upper and lower insides.

So with weather changes, the hole elongates while the dowel wood doesn't move much. So the glue joint fractures and the dowel loosens. It's called differential wood movement.

An M&T joint has all long grain to long grain contact along the glue line. So the Tenon is bonded much like a laminate. I use a lot of floating tenons.

To be truthful, I never trusted a dowel enough to use them.

[Don Dorn]

I've been using dowels for a while now and really like the ease of construction and while I don't buy that they are "stronger" than M&T joints, they are certainly more than strong enough for anything, especially when using multiple dowels. I also figure that if they were good enough for James Krenov to use as a primary case construction joint, they are certainly good enough for me.

Again, I don't doubt that M&T is still King, I have to wonder if there is any apprciable difference in strength between a floating tenon or a tradional one.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have used dowels on more than one occasion with success. I would suggest taking a look at the dowels Lee Valley sells - premium dowels that are made in the fashion that biscuits are, meaning they expand upon contact with moisture.

[Stuart Tierney]

I've never had that much luck with dowels, getting them aligned and whatnot, but if you can get past that, then I think it's a case of choosing your battles.

If the joint is fairly low stress or used infrequently, then no problems. If it's moderately stressed or used often, it might be a recipe for tears. How many chairs stuck together with dowels have you seen last more than 5 years of everyday use? Dare I say it, there's so few of them that they effectively don't exist. High stress, used frequently and possibly the worst 'joint' imaginable for that situation. But for a frame/panel, should be fine.

If anyone honestly believed that a doweled joint in place of a mortise and tenon will exhibit the same strength and longevity on an outright basis, I'd have to question their intelligence. But for many situations, they would be plenty adequate.

But I don't use them. I make my own doweling stock, but it's never used to replace a mortise and tenon, dovetail or similar proper joinery.

[David Weaver]

I have seen dowel joint chairs, several, someone brought me one to fix. It was not an expensive chair, I told them to throw it away.

The case of use of the joint or non-use of the joint for a purists point of view is kind of pointless - you do what you want to do in your shop, and other peoples' principles don't apply.

I just wouldn't use them on critical joints based on what I've seen. I do, though, have an entire kitchen of dowel joint cabinets made in the '50s, and there isn't one joint with even a hint of separation. Face frames are about as low-stress situation as one would find.

But I also agree with stu, playing with the jigs to do dowels is a pain. It feels like work, and you're left with something you can't really boast to yourself about.

[Trevor Walsh]

Thanks guys, I've liked a lot of the points made here.

[Prashun Patel]

I've read tests in 2 magazines. IIRC, the M&T was considerably stronger than all 'loose' tenon variants.

But I think it's unwise to make a blanket statement about dowels. Their appropriateness varies from project to project and joint to joint. The dowels need to be appropriately sized and made out of the right material.

As for alignment problems, there are wonderful jigs like the Dowelmax that make alignment perfect and easy. I used one for a couple years and it made doweled joints pure joy.

Sam Maloof and a couple of the most respected of his rocker reproducers use dowels and or screws for parts of the construction of his signature rocking chair.

[Jon Toebbe]

But I also agree with stu, playing with the jigs to do dowels is a pain. It feels like work, and you're left with something you can't really boast to yourself about.
Agreed. I inherited my grandfather's Craftsman dowelling jig (along with some other nice hand tools like Stanley marking gauges that see lots of use in my shop). After futzing around with it, trying to get a glued up panel to go together flush, I decided it was more bother. I used a pocket screw jig, removed the screws after the glue dried, and plugged the holes. It was a painted project anyway, and I didn't have enough clamps.

[john brenton]

On the alignment issue, I had bought some old new stock of Disston dowel centers and they are the shiznit, but just noticed that the dowel jig sets they sell at the borgs come with them AND the dowels. That's a great deal.


I've never had that much luck with dowels, getting them aligned and whatnot, but if you can get past that, then I think it's a case of choosing your battles.
.

[george wilson]

Dowels may be o.k. for some applications,like cabinet doors that won't be sat upon,twisted,or otherwise put under stress like chair's corners. Mortise and tenon joints ARE needed for serious stress applications,though. AND NOT THE LOOSE MT joints,either. Don't let anyone fool you.

Prashun and David are right on.

If you want to use dowels for CASE construction,probably the easiest way to align them is to get some of those little round steel whatzits you place in the first pair of drilled holes,then smack them against where you want the other holes to be. Then ,IF your drill doesn't wander off center(a big if),you can drill the other holes to receive the dowels.

I suppose,if you also have a doweling jig,you could clamp the jig over the centers of the center punch marks your steel dowel markers just made,and then drill,so your drill doesn't get sucked off center by hard and soft grains,etc..

Myself,I just always use proper MT joints. Don't let yourself get lazy about proper joints,or you may end up having to re make everything.

[Sean Hughto]

I've used dowels in various applications with quite satisfactory results. I think of them as cylindrical floating tenons. There is no end grain on the surface of the dowel itself, only in the hole, and only a small portion of the hole is complete end grain, the rest is long or some fraction between long and end.

As for alignment, you can save a lot of hassle and get it perfect if you are able to clamp the parts to be joined together and just drill and glue in the dowel all at once with the parts clamped.

[tico vogt]

There are many uses for dowel joints where mortice and tenons don't work.
Here is an example that I wrote about on my blog (http://www.ticovogt.com/?p=133), a three part series on a walnut and cherry desk organizer. I use them in production for making my Super Chute, joining the runway to the main board.

The key is to make a high quality drill jig, with steel drill bushings of adequate depth. Use a center spur bit, take your time, secure the parts well before drilling, and the results will be excellent. No need to feel that it's not a "proper" joint if you've put in the proper amount of thought and attention.

[Harry Goodwin]

I have no case for dowels except if tools were in short supply and money as well a Stanley 59 doweling jig will do it all. Great improvements can be made in your projects with the 59 which is available lots of places. The choiice of size and layout is great and new low speed drills add to its efficiency. I still use it a lot even though my tools have blossomed. Harry

[Sean Hughto]

FWIW, I built this step stool for my (at the time toddler) daughter to use to get in and out of her bed and get stuff from her closet, dresser etc. about 7 or 8 years ago. She has used it as a step stool and seat every day since. You'll notice the large shop made (dowel plate) walnut dowels serving as "floating through tenons" at the back. They are holding firm as ever. Just an example.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chevy_chase_hughtos/2863765957/in/set-72157607001006126/