Help with Sanding/Staining Structural Beams in Living Room

[Erich James]

Hello Everyone,

I found this forum while looking on the net for information, and must say I'm impressed by the information from the topics chopped up around here.

This is my first post, and I am working on my first real woodworking project, so I'll get right into it.

I recently purchased a condo with 2 structural beams running through my (vaulted ceiling) living room. There is also a third piece of wood that is an aesthetic piece over the entryway. The beams were painted white with the walls when I bought it. My project is to strip the paint off the beams, sand off the existing stain to raw wood, and re-stain and seal the beams.

I have stripped off all of the white paint, and am now working on the sanding process.

The dimensions on the two structural beams are 17 1/2 ft X 13 in X 3 1/2 in & 9 ft X 13 in X 3 1/2 in.
The dimensions on the aesthetic plank are 14 ft X 7.5 in X 1 5/8 in.

The thing is that the structural beams are reacting much differently to sanding than the aesthetic plank. All 3 pieces of wood smell like pine when sanded. The structural beams have some pitch here and there in/on them. But the density on the 2 structural beams is drastically different than on the 14 foot plank. The structurals feel really hard to the touch, but I can make dents in the wood with my thumb on them as well as the plank, if I press hard.

I first sanded the plank with 60 grit sandpaper with a vibrating orbital hand sander. (I have since learned that this is too low of a grit for pine.) But I tried using the same grit and the same tool on the thicker structural beams....and got no result. None of the previous stain was coming off at all. So I moved to a belt sander with 40 grit for the structurals. The stain came right off, as you can imagine. There is no evidence of "sanding abuse" from the 40 grit sandbelt (ie. the wood feels fairly smooth to the touch with little to no dips or 'waves'), but there are a lot of visible scratches in the wood.

In my recent research I have found that the most important part of this project is the sanding. If I don't nail this step perfect, the wood will look horrible when the stain is applied. Granted these beams are fixed 9 and 12 feet in the air, but I still want them to look priceless when I am finished.

Do all the pieces of wood sound like pine by my description? Should I progress from 40 to 60 grit, then to 80, then 100, and 120 on the structural beams? To 150? 220? And should I switch from a belt sander to my square hand held vibrating sander? If so, on which grit?

To correct for sanding with too low of a grit on the aesthetic plank, I plan on using a lighter stain.

Any help you can offer would be appreciated. I would be happy to answer any additional questions, if I have left details out.

Thank you in advance,

Erich

[Jim Rimmer]

I'm not too good at identifying wood from pics but it looks like the beams may be fir. I wouldn't go past 150 grit. All you want to do is get the scratches as small as possible and all going in the same direction. If you are going to used pigmented stain and go too fine the pigment won't work very well since it "settles" in the pores of the wood. If it is too finely sanded there is no place for the pigment (a pretty coarse explanation, no pun inteneded). As for the aesthetic piece, lighter stain may not help as much as continuing through the grits to 150; may take a little longer due to the depth of the scratches from the 40 grit.

There are some finishing experts and wood identifiers here that are more knowledgeable than I and hopefully some of them will add their knowledge as well.

[David Helm]

Your structural beams appear to be Douglas Fir. Most pines do not have the strength for this application. By all means go up in grit. When I remodeled my house I removed bearing wall and replaced with fir 6 X 12 beams and 6 X 6 posts. I sanded them to 120 grit which is plenty smooth for this application, then finished them with a teak oil (numerous coats with wet/dry sanding between. I did all my sanding with a random orbit sander (a better way to go than your vibrator). Good luck and post pictures when finished.

[Erich James]

Your structural beams appear to be Douglas Fir. Most pines do not have the strength for this application. By all means go up in grit. When I remodeled my house I removed bearing wall and replaced with fir 6 X 12 beams and 6 X 6 posts. I sanded them to 120 grit which is plenty smooth for this application, then finished them with a teak oil (numerous coats with wet/dry sanding between. I did all my sanding with a random orbit sander (a better way to go than your vibrator). Good luck and post pictures when finished.

Does Douglas Fir have that same pinesol smell as pine? It seems as if a lot of inexperienced people like myself get these two woods mixed up.

I am guessing the teak oil you used had no pigmentation, and you used it to enhance the natural color of the wood? Do you have pictures you can post?

[Jamie Schmitz]

Maybe it would be possible to wrap the beam with a skin of Pine to match the others. You would need access to a big band saw to get what you need.

[David Helm]

Does Douglas Fir have that same pinesol smell as pine? It seems as if a lot of inexperienced people like myself get these two woods mixed up.

I am guessing the teak oil you used had no pigmentation, and you used it to enhance the natural color of the wood? Do you have pictures you can post?

Fir will give you a pitch smell. Often you'll find pitch pockets is it. The oil I use is Daly's Seafin . . . and yes it does not have pigment in it. From the pictures you will see that the color of the fir has darkened; it goes to a reddish tint over time.

168644

168645

[ken gibbs]

I would laminate a matching 1/4" or 3/16" plywood product to the outside of these beams. I would cut to fit, stain to match, and prefinish the plywood. Most of this project can be done outside. Use a eurathane to finish the wood that needs to dry outside in a garage for several days before you put it on the interior beams. You will have to fill and stain the nail holes with stain afater the project is up. You will NEVER sand enough to remove all of the paint stains from the original beam finish. This method will be much faster and give you a better looking job and the cost will not be excessive.

[Erich James]

You will NEVER sand enough to remove all of the paint stains from the original beam finish.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Although I did have this impression before I grabbed the belt sander with a 50 grit sandbelt.

Thanks for the input, though. I thought about the veneer route and decided against it before I stripped the paint off initially.

[ian maybury]

If sanding is the plan, then it's basically going to be a case of trying different grits until you get something that doesn't blind up too quickly. It may be that your finish won't instantly cover up the resulting fairly coarse scratches though.

I can't speak for fir, but many of these more resinous woods sand a lot better anyway with a coat of finish on. i.e. keep on coating and sanding with finer grits until you a finish.

I'd be cautious about going for a flat or gloss finish on rougher timbers like that though - it tends to show up every mark and imperfection, including lots you didn't know were there. Satin or matt might be better.

Alternatively how's about plan B? Festool (and others) do a wire brush system (at least in Europe) for cleaning and texturing timbers. http://www.festool.co.uk/Products/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?pid=570748&name=RUSTOFIX-RAS-180-03-E-HR-GB-240V Here's the Makita version in action in the video about half way down - the finer nylon grit brush does a very nice job of raising the grain: http://www.timberwolftools.com/tools/makita/M-9741.html This sort of finish is often a better bet on timbers that are not easily flattened, and which have a lot of dings and marks - as well as raising the harder growth rings in the timber a little they produce an attractive burnished finish.

[Erich James]

If sanding is the plan, then it's basically going to be a case of trying different grits until you get something that doesn't blind up too quickly. It may be that your finish won't instantly cover up the resulting fairly coarse scratches though.

I can't speak for fir, but many of these more resinous woods sand a lot better anyway with a coat of finish on. i.e. keep on coating and sanding with finer grits until you a finish.

I'd be cautious about going for a flat or gloss finish on rougher timbers like that though - it tends to show up every mark and imperfection, including lots you didn't know were there. Satin or matt might be better.

Alternatively how's about plan B? Festool (and others) do a wire brush system (at least in Europe) for cleaning and texturing timbers. http://www.festool.co.uk/Products/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?pid=570748&name=RUSTOFIX-RAS-180-03-E-HR-GB-240V Here's the Makita version in action in the video about half way down - the finer nylon grit brush does a very nice job of raising the grain: http://www.timberwolftools.com/tools/makita/M-9741.html This sort of finish is often a better bet on timbers that are not easily flattened, and which have a lot of dings and marks - as well as raising the harder growth rings in the timber a little they produce an attractive burnished finish.


What do you mean by "blind up too quickly?"

[Neal Clayton]

Does Douglas Fir have that same pinesol smell as pine? It seems as if a lot of inexperienced people like myself get these two woods mixed up.

I am guessing the teak oil you used had no pigmentation, and you used it to enhance the natural color of the wood? Do you have pictures you can post?

douglas fir and the old longleaf pine they used in the south are very similar trees. yes, they look similar and have that pine smell.

and yes they get more red over time as someone stated above. not much you can do about that.

they're not strong enough for structural use such as this anymore but they used to be ;). the old growth stuff is stronger than a lot of modern hardwoods are.

another option for finishing is shellac. that's the solution i arrived at when doing similar things in my own house. i had to reproduce some of the moldings, and while the new boards are the same species and arguably the same quality, they aren't the same age as the floors so simply don't look the same..yet.

my solution was to start with my varnish of choice as the first few sealing coats, and then add a varying number of coats of colored shellac until the pieces matched. in my case it was one coat on the old floors, and about three coats on the new trim. that left them a pretty close match. then i put another coat of varnish on top and leave it at that. i use garnet shellac and waterlox.

shellac is also more forgiving than a stain in your case, since it's easily removed. if you don't like the color you can just wipe it off with an alcohol soaked rag. those old boards would soak up a LOT of stain, and being softwoods, could get blotchy with a typical stain as well.

one point on the sanding, don't overdo it. these old growth softwoods like you have don't really like being oversanded. the growth rings are very hard, but the sapwood (yellow/white parts) are still a softwood. they will sand away faster than the red grain lines will, and can leave you with a surface that's less even than you started with. generally on old softwood floors which are the same as your beams, i sand with 60-80 to remove the old finish, 120-160, and 220, and then that's it. whatever it is at that point, is what it is.

agree with the satin recommendation, those knots will absorb differently than the rest, it would take a lot of work to build an even gloss sheen on those beams.

[Brad Shipton]

I am with Ken. I would find a nice wood I like, pre-finish and install with some glue or brad nails. With the pitch of your roof you have hours upon hours of hand sanding ahead of you if you want the existing to look pristine. One face of the existing beam will be easy, but the lower side is going to be a pain.

Brad

[Chris Padilla]

I wouldn't go much past 120 grit for stuff like this. If you want it to be butter smooth looking and such, then you should seriously consider a veneered approach.

The beams are rough and will always look rough and from 10' away, you can get away with a lot more than you think. Believe me, I know how you feel about getting them looking 'perfect' from 1 foot away but it is A LOT Of work and it may be difficult to accomplish on a softwood in the first place.

You talked about staining. What color are you shooting for? There are MANY ways to skin this cat. If possible, you'll want to experiment a bit but you likely don't have a good 'can't be seen' spot to experiment on. Pick up some doug-fir at the borg or a lumberyard (the better choice...you might get lucky and find some old cut-offs from doug-fir beams) and experiment, experiment, experiment.

Personally, I would saturate them with BLO (boiled linseed oil). This oil should darken them up a bit...maybe enough for you? Wait a week or two for the BLO to dry. If they are a nice color for you, seal them with Sealcoat (clear shellac from Zinnser...also at the borg). If not, consider using Zinnser's amber shellac to seal them and see if that gives you the color you want.

The above steps are likely the easiest and cheapest way to do this and they will look very nice.

[ian maybury]

Just as you probably know that fine papers clog more easily, and stop cutting Erich. Coarser often does better, but of course only up to a point.

I've never had much luck sanding resinous pine type woods anyway - the fibres tend not to cut cleanly....

[johnny means]

If you hired me to do that job, I would definitely wrap them in a shop built and finished cap. If you absolutely had to refinish the originals we would have went with an eco friendly gel stripper followed by a light sanding at 120.

[Greg Portland]

I would laminate a matching 1/4" or 3/16" plywood product to the outside of these beams. I would cut to fit, stain to match, and prefinish the plywood. Most of this project can be done outside. Use a eurathane to finish the wood that needs to dry outside in a garage for several days before you put it on the interior beams. You will have to fill and stain the nail holes with stain afater the project is up. You will NEVER sand enough to remove all of the paint stains from the original beam finish. This method will be much faster and give you a better looking job and the cost will not be excessive.
I wonder if pre-finished flooring + corner molding would look good & be easier to install?

[Erich James]

Just as you probably know that fine papers clog more easily, and stop cutting Erich. Coarser often does better, but of course only up to a point.

I've never had much luck sanding resinous pine type woods anyway - the fibres tend not to cut cleanly....

Ah, I see what you mean. I've been "cleaning" the clogged sandpaper with a wire brush. It clears most of the debris.

[Erich James]

If you hired me to do that job, I would definitely wrap them in a shop built and finished cap. If you absolutely had to refinish the originals we would have went with an eco friendly gel stripper followed by a light sanding at 120.

Interestingly, I did use an ecofriendly stripper. I went with Citristrip.
http://www.wmbarr.com/citristrip/default.aspx

However, once I got the layer of paint and what looked like grey primer (or maybe grey paint) off of the beams, there was a fairly think layer of really dark stain on the beams. It looked like something that would have been en vogue in the 70's or 80's. The first pic shows what I was able to get off with a scraper before I used a wirebrush to get in the deeper recesses. I wish I had closer pictures of the end result of that. It had a real distressed look to it, with a lot of what I would call "character" to it. But sanding with 120 wouldn't remove that dark stain. That's why I went with the 50 grit sandpaper that I'm having issues with.

I can fully see now that I'm taking the longer road here..

[Mark Woodmark]

As others stated wraping them is the answer. Pine and Fir blotch somewhat when stained. If you do stain them, I would apply a sanding sealer first to minimize this blotching......Heck of a job you took on. It musta sucked sanding overhead

[Erich James]

You talked about staining. What color are you shooting for? There are MANY ways to skin this cat. If possible, you'll want to experiment a bit but you likely don't have a good 'can't be seen' spot to experiment on. Pick up some doug-fir at the borg or a lumberyard (the better choice...you might get lucky and find some old cut-offs from doug-fir beams) and experiment, experiment, experiment.

Personally, I would saturate them with BLO (boiled linseed oil). This oil should darken them up a bit...maybe enough for you? Wait a week or two for the BLO to dry. If they are a nice color for you, seal them with Sealcoat (clear shellac from Zinnser...also at the borg). If not, consider using Zinnser's amber shellac to seal them and see if that gives you the color you want.

The above steps are likely the easiest and cheapest way to do this and they will look very nice.

Chris,

What I am looking for is a light (maybe natural) color on the wood and a much darker grain. Basically to keep the light parts light and exaggerate the darker parts a bit. I've heard the only way to do this is to sand the wood around 120-150 then sand the grain at 40-50 grit, then stain it with a fairly dark stain. This sounds like a TON of work, though.

My next step is to take your advice and find some scrap doug fir and do some experimentation. Experimenting should be fun, finding it first probably not so much.

Also, what is the borg?

Thanks,

Erich

[Erich James]

I am with Ken. I would find a nice wood I like, pre-finish and install with some glue or brad nails. With the pitch of your roof you have hours upon hours of hand sanding ahead of you if you want the existing to look pristine. One face of the existing beam will be easy, but the lower side is going to be a pain.

Brad

Yes, I am not looking forward to this. So far, I plan on using a sanding bar.
Is this the best way?

I used a Black and Decker Mouse to get to what I could, but there is about 3/4'' left to get on a 17 foot beam and a 9 footer, 26 feet total.

Since my couch will be going right underneath one of them, at least I'll be able to sit down with a cold beer, look up and know that I earned 'em.

[Erich James]

As others stated wraping them is the answer. Pine and Fir blotch somewhat when stained. If you do stain them, I would apply a sanding sealer first to minimize this blotching......Heck of a job you took on. It musta sucked sanding overhead

Yes, I had dust coming out the eyes and sneezing it out for hours afterward, even with goggles and a mask.

I believe I will take your advice on the sanding sealer.

[Van Huskey]

Also, what is the borg?

Thanks,

Erich

BORG Big Orange Retail Giant ie Home Depot but generically any big box store. You will see other interpretations of the letters but all mean the same general thing.


I also vote for scabbing it instead of refinishing, but you are kinda into it now...

[Jim Kaczmark]

Hopefully the attached picture works. We have douglas fir beams and trusses in our home. In advance we had done all of the stain samples & hard surfaces sample boards to finalize our color schemes. Intent was to have natural finished beams fir beams in the home. Adjoining trim was knotty alder with a custom finish recipe.

We pre-finished the beams and wrapped them before sheetrocking to protect them. When we finally uncovered them after adjoining trim was up, everyonw asked "when are you going to finish the beams"... they were much too blond yet to be sitting next to the adjoining trim for several years to "wait" for their natural patina to form. Also, the timber trusses in the adjoining room were exposed to direct sunlight for a few weeks during home construction and had already developed a deep patina to them & we needed a solution to fix the beams... in other words give us an instant patina. Problem was as said before, the beams were already finished, includint top coats.

Here in effect is what we did, is easy, and would eliminate any blothing common in staining soft woods.

1) Use clear stain to bring grain out in the wood. We used Target Coatings Ultima-WR stain (water based), their "clear base" color... keep applying in quick succession 2-3 or more coats, lightly rubbing it in as you apply it. You want to penetrate the wood to bring the grain out more. Beauty of a clear stain is it wont' blotch.
2) After drying thoroughly, we applied top coats. We had originally sprayed on Target Coatings USL (ultimate spray lacquer... again water based). This is where we were left with the dillema listed above.
3) We then applied a coat or two of gell stain over the lacquer to tint the wood & return a natural looking patina. We used Minwas Gel Stain, antique maple color. Simply rub on with a rag, and wipe off after you complete a small section.
4) Apply final top coat. For this, now that the home was complete, and we did not want to spray, we used foam brush to brush on Minwas water based polycrylic clear satin protective finish.

After sanding, for your recipe, I'd do 1-2 coats clear stain, a single coat of finish, a single coat of gell stain, and 1-2 coats of top coats again.

The attached picture shows the beams in our (work in progress) kitchen. (base boards, few drawer fronts, crown, & backsplashes yet to be done). All beams were hand hewn. The satin finish top coat was just enough sheen to allow the hand hewing to "pop" given normal lighing situatons in the room.

Hope this helps.

[Erich James]

The attached picture shows the beams in our (work in progress) kitchen. (base boards, few drawer fronts, crown, & backsplashes yet to be done). All beams were hand hewn. The satin finish top coat was just enough sheen to allow the hand hewing to "pop" given normal lighing situatons in the room.

Hope this helps.

Nice work, Jim. Was the process messy? I'm assuming you had drop cloths, taped off certain areas, etc.

E

[Erich James]

I am almost done with the sanding phase and picking out the paint and caulking that was used to fill the cracks in the knots before the beams were initially painted.

In trying to figure out which stain to use, I made a stain board with 24 different variables: 6 different stains, each with the 4 following variations: sanded to 80 grit with conditioned wood, sanded to 80 grit with non conditioned wood, or sanded to 120 grit, conditioned wood, and sanded to 120 grit with non conditioned wood.

I have attached a picture of part of the board. Interestingly, most of the stains came out very similar regardless of whether the wood was conditioned or not. Also, the 8 footer of doug fir that I bought is more blond, and my beams have more red in them. I am most interested in the second to darkest (but am not sold on it yet), in the #2 position (from the left) in the pic with the horizontal layout. It has a darkish complexion but there is still some contrast between the grain and wood, although I would like more contrast in my finished product.

What I am looking for most is to have that stark contrast. I'd prefer a darker hue, but would rather have a stain with light wood if the grain will really stand out, than to have a darker stain for the sake of being dark. I hope I am making sense; Contrast is king here.

How will I achieve this? I was thinking of applying a sealer, then a coat or two of stain. Then apply further coats just on the grain, either wiped off of the non grain wood with a rag immediately, and/or applied to the grain with a foam brush and q-tips.

Is there an easier way?

Thanks in advance,

Erich

[Erich James]

Here is what I want in a darker stain. This wood looks like douglas fir to me. Is this correct, and how did they get this beautiful color in the wood?

[David Helm]

Looks to me like they used a transparent exterior stain (like a light wash) on the wood.

[John Smith Jr]

I am in almost exactly the same boat as Erich. I just moved into my new home where eight 18' long 3x10 douglas fir beams and a larger douglas fir central beam that are painted white with apparently a dark varnish layer beneath that. Can't stand so much painted wood. Was going the chemical stripping/sanding route but after reading some of these posts am reconsidering "boxing" them in with plywood or laminated plywood but have not been able to find any really helpful posts on how to do this on a large scale and make it look good. I am a novice but enthusiastic wood worker and am good at searching the net, but so far very little info. Can anyone point to posts or work they have done to box in existing large beams? Thanks.