starting a wood shop & looking for advice

[jed piatt]

Im gonna be starting a wood shop hopefully within the next few weeks. I've been working on the logistics for the past 3 months and as soon as a decent rental space is found will be ordering the shop tools. My primary focus is going to be built-ins and custom finish work. My budget is moderate and i've chosen to go with the following grizzly line up:




G1023RLX - 10" 3 HP 220V Cabinet Left-Tilt Tablesaw
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $1,395.00
Freight: $144.00
Total: $1,539.00



G0656P - 8" x 72" Jointer 3 HP w/ Mobile Base, Polar Bear Series
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $728.00
Freight: $144.00
Total: $872.00



G0513X2B - 17" 2 HP Extreme-Series® Bandsaw w/ Cast Iron Trunnion & Brake.
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $1,050.00
Freight: $94.00
Total: $1,144.00



G0453P - 15" 3 HP 220V Planer, Polar Bear Series
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $898.00
Freight: $144.00
Total: $1,042.00



G7944 - 12 Speed Heavy-Duty 14" Floor Drill Press
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $275.00
Freight: $74.00
Total: $349.00



G1030Z2 - 3 HP Dust Collector with New Impeller
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $395.00
Freight: $74.00
Total: $469.00



G1026 - 3 HP Shaper
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $895.00
Freight: $94.00
Total: $989.00


Merchandise: $5,636.00
Freight: $768.00
**Subtotal: $6,404.00


If any one has any insite, I would greatly appreciate it. Im having last minute frayed nerves...

thanx jed

[Brian Kent]

Welcome Jed. You'll get some great responses here. I like your choices, but I am just a newbie.

Have you been doing this a long time?

Brian

[David Hostetler]

Jed,

You picked some nice machines. I have others in the Grizzly line up that I would prefer.... They are...

G0691 - 10" 3HP 220V Cabinet Table Saw with Long Rails & Riving Knife
Price: $1,250.00
Freight $144.00
Total: $1,394.00

Instead of...

G1023RLX - 10" 3 HP 220V Cabinet Left-Tilt Tablesaw
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $1,395.00
Freight: $144.00
Total: $1,539.00

Reason? Riving knife. Simply put, I am hooked on a Riving knife and will not own a table saw without one. They work that well, and are such a forehead slapping simple idea that they should have been on all table saws long ago... And honestly, you save $145.00 which will come in handy down below a tad...

G7947 - 12 Speed 17" Floor Drill Press
Price: $455.00
Freight: $94.00
Total: $549.00

Instead of...

G7944 - 12 Speed Heavy-Duty 14" Floor Drill Press
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $275.00
Freight: $74.00
Total: $349.00

In drill presses, quill travel is one of the critical issues at play. If you want a drill press with the short travel that the G7944 then go for it, but if you will be through drilling thick stock, the longer quill travel will come in VERY handy... For the sort of work you plan on doing, not such a big thing, but if you ever get into doing stuff like making toys, being able to through drill say a 4x4 actually comes in quite handy...

G0562Z - 3HP Double Canister Dust Collector
Price: $575.00
Freight: $74.00
Total: $649.00

Instead of...

G1030Z2 - 3 HP Dust Collector with New Impeller
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $395.00
Freight: $74.00
Total: $469.00

The G1030Z2 only filters to 2.5 microns, and uses bags. Pleated filters provide HUGELY more surface filtration area, and thus more air flow, and these are rated at 1 micron which is where you want to be filtering...

You will want to build and use a Thien Separator in line before the intake of the DC to separate out all the big stuff, and most of the fines...

Sounds like you are off to a decent start though. Can't wait to see how you get it set up!

[Eiji Fuller]

you might want a wider jointer too.

[johnny means]

Jed, as someone who has been in the field for 11years and in business for myself for about the last 6, I can tell you that equipment choices are some of the most trivial choices a shop owner makes. Believe me picking machines is the easy part.

But anyway, if your going to be doing built-ins, I would assume that means lots of sheet goods. Processing more than a couple of sheets at a time on a cabinet saw is way too laborious and mind numbingly slow. I would ditch the cabinet saw and the bandsaw in favor of a quality used slider. There are lots of 10+ year old sliders out there to be had for under 5k. I have a 15 year old SCMI SW16 that cost me 3.5k that cuts as square as the day it was born. A good slider IMO is the heart of any cabinet shop (unless you really go big with a CNC).

I say ditch the bandsaw, not because I don't believe they're useful, but because IMO a decent jigsaw will do the job until you can make some profits to reinvest. Same with a drill press, hell, I'm shipping furniture to Saudi Arabia, Australia, and all over the U.S. and still don't own one.

The shaper is useless unless you have a couple more thousand to throw into cutters. I have a 1026, honestly, it's a lot of machine for the price. It was one of my first purchases six years ago and I still have just one set of cutters for it. In fact I used it last week to raise some panels and it was the first time in over a year that it had been used. Not that I wouldn't like to use my shapers more, but it's really hard to justify the expense of the cutters for a small volume shop.

Build a good router table, probably the most bang for the buck you can get from a "stationary machine".

[Steve Griffin]

-20" planer. You'll sharpen less, handle larger glueups.

-sliding table attachment for your 1023, if you can't afford a true slider.

-ditch the bandsaw like Johnny suggests, unless you are doing mostly curvy furniture.

-downsize drill press to a table top model. You'll need it for hinge cup holes mostly, and occasional pilot holes or repetitive holes.

-shaper is one of the most important tools. I use it almost every day on almost every piece of wood. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=135238
don't forget a 4 wheel feeder. $500 bucks should be plenty for grizzly quality cutters to get you started, and then purchase panel sets as you go for specific jobs. Luckily the trend I see in woodworking is less foo foo profiles on doors, and more flat panels/shaker style doors.

-12" miter saw with stop system. no need for a 12" slider, since you will have your nice sliding table on the T-saw.

Once you start making money, a 15-24" stationary belt sander should be first on your dream list, followed by a 14" bandsaw. If you get a full blown slider, and have shop space, I'd add another table saw for non-sheetgoods.

Budget about 50% of each tool for it's setup--outfeedtables, blades, dust collection, wiring, extra blades etc.

Have fun!

-Steve

[Cary Falk]

Jed,

You picked some nice machines. I have others in the Grizzly line up that I would prefer.... They are...

G0691 - 10" 3HP 220V Cabinet Table Saw with Long Rails & Riving Knife
Price: $1,250.00
Freight $144.00
Total: $1,394.00

Instead of...

G1023RLX - 10" 3 HP 220V Cabinet Left-Tilt Tablesaw
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $1,395.00
Freight: $144.00
Total: $1,539.00

Reason? Riving knife. Simply put, I am hooked on a Riving knife and will not own a table saw without one. They work that well, and are such a forehead slapping simple idea that they should have been on all table saws long ago... And honestly, you save $145.00 which will come in handy down below a tad...


The 1023RLX has a riving knife and it also has a blade shroud for dust collection that the 690/691 does not have. I have the 1023rl and love it.



Jed,
I have the G0513x2, G0453Z, and the G1026 and am happy with all of them. I have never hadn any of their drill presses. The specs(mainly quill travel) on paper never impressed me.

[Stephen Cherry]

Jed, I think that you are getting some good advice here from people who know. I am a few years behind you- basically practicing up and collecting my gear.

My advice:

BUY USED

Notice the advice on shapers, one person uses theirs a lot, and the other a little. Now suppose you bought one and never used it, or it just wasn't right for what you end up doing (which in the end market forces will determine), with used gear you will be able to sell for about what you paid. With the new griz gear, and I am certainly not a grizz basher, you will loose your shirt if you sell.

Also, the slider idea may be great advice for you. One experiment would be to practice handling 3/4 sheets of plywood on a cabinet saw- maybe a friend has one you could try. Personally, I have a hard time with it, so I bought a used slider. As already stated, these saws can be had for pretty cheap. Sometimes even around a thousand dollars. And for plywood you will be way ahead of the game. And a scoring blade will be a big plus on melamine.

[Steve Griffin]

And my advice for someone starting a business:

BUY NEW

I've never horsed around with old stuff. As a professional, full time woodworker, I want my motors brand new, my bearings new, my belts new, my feed roller tires fresh and my customer service/manuals all good to go.

Remember, your time is worth something. It could take months to find the tools you want used, many hours to pick up/deliver and then, down the road, you are performing work interupting maintinance just that much sooner. That sort of messing around is just perfect for a hobbiest, but not me.

Now there may be exceptions, such as a large ticket item like a euro style slider or stationary belt sander, which comes from a larger operation which is out of business.

Of course I started 11 years ago, when the used market wasn't as good as now, but still, I continue to buy new.

-STeve

[G Douglas Fowler]

I agree that slider is exremely important when working with a lot of sheet goods. There is another thread that has an excellent link to an article on sliders and the vrious models and options. http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/SurveyOfSlidingTables/surveyofslidingtables.html

Having a number of Grizzly products in my shop, there seems to be no inbetween: they are either crap are just fine for what they are intended to acccomplish. Having recently purchased the same model jointer, I would strongly suggest that you consider another brand. When time is money, you don't need to waste it fixing and aadjusting tools.

[Don Bullock]

You already have some great advice from people who know what they're doing.

In my opinion I think you need to first decide what you will be doing with the tools. What will you be making in your shop? That will determine what tools you "need." After you have decided what you will be making the types of tools will fall into place.

As for going with Grizzly for your whole shop that's a decision that only you can make. While all the matching green and white tools might look great there are other choices out there that you might want to look at before you place the order. I'm not at all saying that Grizzly tools aren't any good. In fact I have one of their jointers and should have bought one of their bandsaws instead of the one I have. As others have stated Grizzly is behind in having a woodworking drill press. There are rumors from the company officials that one is on the way, but with the current economy it seems to have been delayed. I'd suggest a cyclone DC system rather than the one you mentioned. It could come from Grizzly or one of the other companies who make them. I would suggest that you look at a SawStop table saw if you haven't yet. Yes, I realize they are a lot more expensive, but they are very well made saws with more safety features than the Grizzly. Look at all the options before you buy and you'll be much happier. Enjoy.

[Chris Fournier]

Do you have clients lined up? Do you have a business plan?

I love buying equipment but hate selling myself and number crunching - not a great start for an owner/operator of a small business.

I think that johnny means really hit the nail on the head! If you are going to do built-ins then you'll be wrangling endless amounts of sheet goods - get a slider! I struggled with a cabinet saw for too long when it came to dimensioning sheet goods. Great for solids though. There are lots of nice used units about.

I also agree with johnny regarding the shaper. If you do buy a shaper go with a 3/4" spindle and your tooling is affordable. I would not buy a shaper like this unless it had a collet system that allowed you to use router bits also.

You say that you are going to do custom finishing - have you budgeted for quality spray equipment and a spray booth set up?

I've been where you are and flying by the seat of the pants can work but you're investing in new equipment and rental space - you've got to get product out the door at a profit to make this work.

Oh yeah, a computer and the appropriate design, book keeping software should be on your list of "buys" too!

Best of luck on your new business!

[John Coloccia]

For a dust collector, I would suggest something much bigger than you think you need. The ClearVue Max would probably be my choice, but anything large will do. If you ever get busy, and you'd better get busy if you want to survive, you'll need to bring in help someday and that will mean running more than one tool at the same time. The last thing you need to be doing is ripping out all your duct work, installing 8" ducts, etc etc. Just do it once and be done.

The other thing I can recommend is wherever you get shop space, be sure to have enough space for a separate finishing room. That will save you countless hours of grief.

[Stephen Cherry]

And my advice for someone starting a business:

BUY NEW

I've never horsed around with old stuff. As a professional, full time woodworker, I want my motors brand new, my bearings new, my belts new, my feed roller tires fresh and my customer service/manuals all good to go.

Remember, your time is worth something. It could take months to find the tools you want used, many hours to pick up/deliver and then, down the road, you are performing work interupting maintinance just that much sooner. That sort of messing around is just perfect for a hobbiest, but not me.

Now there may be exceptions, such as a large ticket item like a euro style slider or stationary belt sander, which comes from a larger operation which is out of business.

Of course I started 11 years ago, when the used market wasn't as good as now, but still, I continue to buy new.

-STeve

This is all very true. It has taken me a few years to put together the machines in my shop. They are all in good shape, but new is new and used is used, so everything needed at least a good inspection. Even new tools neet to be inspected, and aligned. And it is not always that easy. For example, the first time aligning a table saw or putting jointer and planer blades.

Anyway, here is what I have, at highly discounted prices:
Felder K975 slider
SCMI T110 with feeder
(2) delta hd shapers
Aggazani 24" bandsaw
Vega edge sander
Performax 22-44
12" griz jointer
15" Jet planer
plus others.

All without incurring any DEBT.

[David Helm]

Jed,

You picked some nice machines. I have others in the Grizzly line up that I would prefer.... They are...

G0691 - 10" 3HP 220V Cabinet Table Saw with Long Rails & Riving Knife
Price: $1,250.00
Freight $144.00
Total: $1,394.00

Instead of...

G1023RLX - 10" 3 HP 220V Cabinet Left-Tilt Tablesaw
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $1,395.00
Freight: $144.00
Total: $1,539.00

Reason? Riving knife. Simply put, I am hooked on a Riving knife and will not own a table saw without one. They work that well, and are such a forehead slapping simple idea that they should have been on all table saws long ago... And honestly, you save $145.00 which will come in handy down below a tad...

G7947 - 12 Speed 17" Floor Drill Press
Price: $455.00
Freight: $94.00
Total: $549.00

Instead of...

G7944 - 12 Speed Heavy-Duty 14" Floor Drill Press
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $275.00
Freight: $74.00
Total: $349.00

In drill presses, quill travel is one of the critical issues at play. If you want a drill press with the short travel that the G7944 then go for it, but if you will be through drilling thick stock, the longer quill travel will come in VERY handy... For the sort of work you plan on doing, not such a big thing, but if you ever get into doing stuff like making toys, being able to through drill say a 4x4 actually comes in quite handy...

G0562Z - 3HP Double Canister Dust Collector
Price: $575.00
Freight: $74.00
Total: $649.00

Instead of...

G1030Z2 - 3 HP Dust Collector with New Impeller
Item added on Thursday November 25, 2010
Price: $395.00
Freight: $74.00
Total: $469.00

The G1030Z2 only filters to 2.5 microns, and uses bags. Pleated filters provide HUGELY more surface filtration area, and thus more air flow, and these are rated at 1 micron which is where you want to be filtering...

You will want to build and use a Thien Separator in line before the intake of the DC to separate out all the big stuff, and most of the fines...

Sounds like you are off to a decent start though. Can't wait to see how you get it set up!

Just to let you know that the 1023RLX has a riving knife and also has better dust collection than the 0690/1. All saws that are sold now have to have riving knives.

[Ray Newman]

Jed: from your post, it seems that you setting up a commercial wood shop? If so, I wish you the best considering this economy.

My question is have you given any thought to or researched the cost of liability and worker’s compensation premiums if you had a Saw Stop in the shop? If you have thought of this, I would be interested in reading what you found out.

From what I read on-line and in magazines and hear, seems that Saw Stop is selling its products through the liability, lawsuit, insurance premium approach. On other wood working boards, I read threads where woodworkers purchased used Powermatic or Unisaw from a school or business because increased insurance premiums.

Your shop may be a one-man operation. But ‘gawd’ forbid that you ever injure self, can you afford to be out of work until you can fully return to work? Same with a helper or employee. You may not hire one full-time but there could be a time when temporary help is needed for a big job or to meet a timeline. I’ve know a few guys who were injured on the job and they always started looking for the money no matter who was at fault. Witness the recent court case in MA where the employee did everything wrong while operating a portable TS to cut flooring and still prevailed in court.

Myself, I like the concept of the Saw Stop product, but dislike the approach to marketing it. But given today’s lawsuit tendencies, I understand why insurance carriers and worker’s compensation agencies are pushing woodworkers to the Saw Stop via insurance rates.

[Dewayne Reding]

20" planer. I have the 15" Griz in my garage, not unpacked yet and I already know there will be days I wish I had another $500 to spend on a 20", but I am just playing so I'll get over it. Regarding insurance liability.... I would inquire whether certain tools with certain safety features affect the premiums. (As Ray suggested already) That could be a huge issue. I don't own a Sawstop, but I sure would if I was going to pay for it over and over anyway through increased insurance premiums. (Please don't let that comment ruin Jed's thread).

[Paul DeCarlo]

Jed,
A big air compressor that will power nailers & staplers as well as a spray gun is a must. What about all the hand held power tools you'll need?
I would set aside $$ for all the tooling that goes along with all the equipment. It is amazing how much you can spend on blades(for everything), bits(router&drill), staples, nails, screws, glue, sandpaper(belt,disc,hand), finishing supplies, solvents, benches, work tables, carts, shelving, masking tape, sharpening service, office supplies, etc.....
I've barely scratched the surface.
Also, think very hard about marketing; advertisements, printing, mailings, website.......I agree with another poster, the big tools are the easiest thing to buy.

-Paul

[Mark Bolton]

A lot of great info here and with all thats been talked I would say its probably hard for anyone to give you recommendations without many of the questions that have been asked being answered, like:

Have you been doing this long?
Do you have clients / customers lined up?
Commercial? Wholesale? Retail? One offs?
What type of work? "built-in's" doesn't give you much to go on with tools like drill presses and band saws.

and many more.

We have a small custom shop that we run in conjunction with a contracting business so we are often our own client which helps tremendously as we had a known base and well established demand. Additionally we have been in the business for many years and had a very good handle on what tooling would be best for us. That said, I am in the middle of much of the advice given by Steve and Johnny. We use our shaper almost daily but we run a lot of trim and millwork. I cant tell you the last time I flipped the switch on the band saw, it just collects dust. Drill presses, we have three in the shop (one of my vices) but they very rarely get used other than when I am fixing something non-wood related.

I too would say to ditch the cabinet saw and go for a panel saw. It is absolutely the only way to go in a shop that moves any quantity of sheet goods or process any amount of rough or surfaced lumber. Our panel saw is simply the best shop investment we have ever made. That and the shaper (for us).

With regards to new vs. used all I would say is you have to very seriously consider your chances of success with this business. I think if you read back over many old posts here and at woodweb you will find that the vast majority of people in the business will tell you you should have your head examined. Its not an easy business to be in by any means. And as another reply stated, this economy is no bonus though your location will play a part.

If you have an endless budget by all means buy new and blow the wad. If however you are on any sort of a budget or are on any sort of fuzzy ground with how your first few years are going to go (who wouldnt be), then it may be smart to reduce your startup costs on a few tools to save you a few bucks. We have had good luck with some used tools but most of our tools are new purchases. Its nice to buy new but its also nice to keep a buffer held back incase things dont take off the way you planned.

Depending on whether you take any of the advice here, your tool budget is going to go up as almost every recommendation even pertaining to the tools you listed is an upgrade. Moving to more commercial tools will likely require dumping some tools to allow for the higher expense i.e. bandsaw and drill press help offset the cost of the slider, and so on.

Would be interesting to hear a bit more about your plans...

Good Luck,
Mark

[Mike Sayre]

Jed, I am in the same shoes you are i think.But if i understand you correctly you are going in this for a business and i was only going into it to make me stuff,family stuff,and for a hobby and maybe one day i could make money selling to a few people not around the world like most i suspect in here do..But recently i sat back went to grizzlys and picked out a complete list of there tools mostly polar bear series (was it the color,or the design) not sure just liked to have all one brand tools in my shop same color...Seems simple to me..But after reading all the Professionals in here everyone had one thing they liked and others said different...For now i am lost on what i want to do and have put my shop that i was getting ready to start ground work on hold..Maybe for 6 months to a year or 2 until i see how others getting there shops together or other design in grizzlys tools don't really know...But please do post anything you get ,works on them,and pics if you can...And good luck on your future shop....Mike

[Mark Bolton]

not sure just liked to have all one brand tools in my shop same color...Seems simple to me..But after reading all the Professionals in here everyone had one thing they liked and others said different...

When we set this shop up I was very tempted, just for the simplicity factor, to just order a package deal or pick from a single suppliers catalog to simplify things. I didnt look at grizzly but I dont like their tools. With the chaos of everything else that was going on with setting up a commercial space I thought it would be no big deal to simply package everything knowing I would likely have to "make due" with some of the tools.

In hind sight I am so glad I didn't go that route for the very reasons you mention. There are just some tools that you want/like from one manufacturer and not another. I think that all one tool thing may look all neet and slick in a picture but its simply not practical, at least for us, in the real world.

When push came to shove, we actually only purchase a fraction of the tools we had thought about initially which was also a good thing. It lets you add tooling as *needed* rather than what you are anticipating you will need.

Its the American mindset now to one-stop-shop, and I am sure the mfr's love it, but it ain't my choice.

Mark

[jed piatt]

wow, thanks guys! that is a lot of information to digest. as for sheet goods I want to eventually have a standing panel saw. right now Ill use my festool track saw to bring the sheet to a reasonable size (I use the fes system alot on site to build custom paint grade builtins). Im planing on milling alot of stain grade from 8/4 rough stock depending on the scope of a project. so im hoping that the 15" planer, band saw, and jointer will be sufficient. to flatten stock after glue up I was looking at saving up for a 36" drum sander.

there are a lot of historic districts in the area I live, this leads to there being a need for matching trim work. I want to eventually have a few moulders, but decided to start with the shaper. ( shaper being more versatile?)

Im working with a few local business men to get a handle on all this paper work stuff.

you all brought up great points, keep posting andill try to soak it all in!

[Mark Bolton]

If your doing a lot of reproduction molding work you may want to look into a W&H type machine instead of the shaper. As has been mentioned already shaper tooling can get pretty pricey. You want to remember if you go the shaper route a feeder is an absolute must.

Mark

[jed piatt]

Yes definatly looking @ W&H moulders. I like the idea of the shaper for rail & stile, cope & stick, and paneling set ups. add to that an interchangable moulding head.

?????????

[Mark Bolton]

Yes definatly looking @ W&H moulders. I like the idea of the shaper for rail & stile, cope & stick, and paneling set ups. add to that an interchangable moulding head.

?????????

We have both, and they both have their advantages. I am not sure that I can say each does what the other does better. Of course cope & stick is not an option on the W&H.

I can say that I feel more comfortable having a less experienced person feeding through the W&H than I do the shaper.

Mark

[Karl Brogger]

My advice? Have you been watching the news lately? People ain't spending money right now.... I'd look into different things, mainly being working for someone else.

I've been doing wood working for 13 years now. 1-1/2 doing plastic laminate countertops, the rest as a cabinetmaker. Almost seven years on my own.

Buy new what you can, but don't be set on buying new stuff. I made this mistake when I started on my own in early 2004 and for budgetary reasons it created a lot of obstacles. Yeah, new stuff is nice, but money goes really quickly doing that. You've got a budget of $6500, and to be completely honest that won't get you very far. You've got a extremely large amount of crap to buy. There are plenty of deals out there on used equipment, it takes some time, and some patience but its out there. I got some absolute steals the past few years. I know I'll catch hell for this, but while Grizzly may have gotten a heck of a lot better than they were, its still garbage in my opinion. Around here you don't see too much in a commercial setting. I also view most of the newer equipment to be not up to spec in the quality department with what was being produced ten or fifteen years ago. Almost all of the Powermatic equipment that I had purchased new, or built recently has been a disappointment to some degree.

I spent $2500 on dust collection for my new shop. That was just pipe and gates. Something to keep in mind.

DO NOT GO IN DEBT FOR EQUIPMENT! This is what folded so many shops. Work slows down, and all of the sudden you can't make the payments. For many it is a gamble that did not pay. I also do not see the benefit to leasing equipment.

You don't have anything listed for boring hinge cups. I think I paid $1700 for my Blum mini press new, used ones are out there. There are also other options, but the press from the hinge manufacture does pay for itself in a fairly short amount of time.

Renting is not cheap. My new shop costs about $17k a year just to have somewhere to work. I had my shop in some space that I rented from family when I started. I could not have done it with out keeping my overhead as low as possible. It scares the crap out of me having that kind of costs per month now. Plus I think my liability insurance, insurance on the tools, and something to cover product en-route costs me another $1800 per year. (I think)

You don't have to worry about employee's for a while, or the associated costs. You won't have enough equipment to keep more than two hands occupied. But, you will be working plenty of hours to make up for it.:D

I would incorporate. Buy your tools personally then rent/lease them to the company. Most of my company's tools are rented from me personally. The key benefit here being that what you make from rent is unearned income, and you do not have to pay the 15.3% Medicare/S.S. taxes on it. Some states general contractors will not do business with a sole proprietor anymore.

Keep as much cash available as possible. When a deal comes along, missing it can be more costly than not. I went frickin' broke buying up used stuff when things really fell apart a few years ago. When you have a lean spell, (it'll happen, trust me), you still need to pay for your space if renting from someone other than am extremely understanding family member.:o

Don't worry about making doors right off the bat. You can't afford the equipment at this point to make it profitable anyway. Don't bother with a drum sander, save your pennies and pick up a decent used widebelt.

I personally hate sliding tablesaws, with one caveat. If you have an over head panel lift to load the thing they aren't bad for knocking out sheet stock. A good vertical panel-saw, (Striebig, Holz-Herr, etc.) can rip and crosscut multiple sheets at one time, don't take up as much square footage, extremely safe, easy to use, and plenty accurate when cared for. Busting up sheets on a regular tablesaw does suck, but so does constantly changing the shop vs making additions to the shop.

You need to establish what kind of market you want to be in. Who are your cliental? When I started my shop, I didn't want to be slugging it out with the bottom of the gene pool. Around here the majority of the shops are using Melamine, I use plywood. Melamine drawers w/ epoxy slides, I do birch or cherry dovetails with under-mount slides. I don't get too many customers that shop the box cabinet world. I build as good a quality product as I can, and am constantly trying to improve upon that. While I may be expensive as hell, I perceive my cabinetry to be a good value.

Bid what you need to get for a job. There's no justification to working for free. You can sit on the couch and not make money, no reason going into the shop and suck up dust to do it. Starting out you are in no position to try and take down the "other guy". But, you do need to get your name out there. Its a tricky balance I guess when starting out. I don't adjust pricing for anything. I know my costs, what I need to make off of a job, and I try to maintain an image of being higher end.

Never, ever talk down the competition. Point out what makes your product superior when dealing with potential customers.

Reinvest as much as possible back into the business. It lowers your tax liability, and hopefully makes you more money.


I started off by telling you to do something else. With that said, if you can make it work in a crap housing market, when things come back around you will be sitting pretty. Self employment has its benefits, and its drawbacks. I don't play well with others, so its the best avenue for me. You will work some horrendous hours. You will be making next to nothing for a while. Heck, I think I'm doing okay, and I still probably make less per hour than my last job working for someone else. There's been plenty of late nights at the shop, or late nights at the computer doing drawings, and bidding. Plus traveling to measure or meet with customers eats up an enormous amount of time.

Some days the juice is worth the squeeze, some days all you want to do is pull the plug.


I wish you good luck.

[Mark Woodmark]

I would opt for a combo planer/ jointer. You could save some space and money. I have a shaper and rarely use it. Maybe if you intend to do frame and panel doors, it would pay for itself. You could go with a router table instead. It wont completely replace the shaper, but it may get done what you want it to. I would think about a drum sander and a combo disc/ belt sander.....especially the disc/ belt sander. I use mine all the time for all kinds of sanding chores. Have you thought about hand tools? What about clamps? These can be a major investment and you never seem to have enough

[Mark Bolton]

Self employment has its benefits, and its drawbacks. I don't play well with others, so its the best avenue for me. You will work some horrendous hours. You will be making next to nothing for a while. Heck, I think I'm doing okay, and I still probably make less per hour than my last job working for someone else. There's been plenty of late nights at the shop, or late nights at the computer doing drawings, and bidding. Plus traveling to measure or meet with customers eats up an enormous amount of time.

Some days the juice is worth the squeeze, some days all you want to do is pull the plug.


Every time I read one of these that resonates so clearly with me I don't know whether to be sad or feel comforted LOL.

Mark

[Andrew Joiner]

wow, thanks guys! that is a lot of information to digest. as for sheet goods I want to eventually have a standing panel saw. right now Ill use my festool track saw to bring the sheet to a reasonable size (I use the fes system alot on site to build custom paint grade builtins). Im planing on milling alot of stain grade from 8/4 rough stock depending on the scope of a project. so im hoping that the 15" planer, band saw, and jointer will be sufficient. to flatten stock after glue up I was looking at saving up for a 36" drum sander.

there are a lot of historic districts in the area I live, this leads to there being a need for matching trim work. I want to eventually have a few moulders, but decided to start with the shaper. ( shaper being more versatile?)

Im working with a few local business men to get a handle on all this paper work stuff.

you all brought up great points, keep posting andill try to soak it all in!

So that's good Jed, you already have been getting some work so you aren't "starting from scratch".

Here is what I did. I did my first" woodworking for pay" in the early 60's with the cheapest minimal tools I could get in my home based shop. A Sears radial arm saw was the heart of my shop. I ripped on it and cut up 4x8 sheets by myself. For a couple years I made store fixtures and custom furniture at home at night, while I worked jobs in 2 different big cabinet shops.

This was the most valuable experience I had. Working with pro's and bosses that said" this is the way we do it". Many times I'd say wouldn't it be faster to do it this way? To be met with "just do it the way we've always done it". I found out the only way my ideas would prove to work was testing them in my home shop.

Having learned a lot working at other shops I bought a new Safety Speed Cut vertical panel saw. What a dream saw for one teenage cabinetmaker too cut up panels with all night!

In 1969 got a big job making office furniture so I quit my day job.
Eventually the motor parts on my Sears radial arm saw melted because I pushed it so hard. The saw was paid for many times over from all the hard work I asked it to do. I needed a saw. At the time the Delta unisaw was the heart of every cabinet shop. I took a big risk and bought the new kid on the block a new Powermatic 66. It paid for itself many times over, including having to replace 2 motors from all the hard work I asked IT to do.

My repeating theme is don't buy it till you really need it and even top of the line machines can be topped. They all wear out if you use them.

Buy new, buy used if you have time, but there will always be a tool in glossy image that looks like it will do a better job. I have had good luck with Grizzly tools in my retirement hobby shop. I know I could make money with them if I wanted to work hard.

Many businesses fail because they started to big with expensive new equipment that wasn't really needed to get the job done. Stay lean and mean and you can move up faster with less risk.

[Greg Peterson]

Buying used is a great way to go. However, it is inconvenient and cumbersome. Wait for the tool I need to show up and then try to buy it. Then I usually have to do some work to get it 100% operational.

As a hobbiest, I can justify the trials of buying used tool.

If I were trying to run a business, especially new business, the last thing I would want to manage is tool acquisition, setup and repairs. New at least provides the expectation that you will be able to focus your energies in productive endeavors.

Sheet goods are a real pain for me on my table saw. Breaking them down, squaring them up is a time consuming task. I would think a slider would be money well spent.

The band saw and drill press may not be necessary, or at the least you can find less expensive solutions.

As was pointed out with the shaper, unless you plan on lots of BF of custom profiled moldings, the hidden cost of the shaper may be a hindrance.

You don't mention bits, blades, clamps, bench tools and all the other little things required in virtually any shop. I assume these are already accounted for.

[Mark Bolton]

New at least provides the expectation that you will be able to focus your energies in productive endeavors.

This is always the hope but I, and I am sure others, can attest to the fact that often times even when buying new there is a LOT of fixing, figuring, and back and forth with manufacturers about problems and so on. No different that being in for a half a dozen recall's or worse getting towed in when buying a new car.

I have a couple tools in my shop currently that were pretty challenging when they came on line and they were purchased new in hopes to eliminate headaches.

For me at least the answer would be, if budget allows, your core tools would be best bought new. After that (which is a lot) you can watch auctions, used outlets (woodweb, exfactory, Cl, etc) , and so on trying to find good options for remaining items. As many have mentioned, its a great time to be buying used tools right now if you have ready cash and a little bit of time. There are a lot of deals to be had.

At least you get up and running with the basics and build from there. You may wind up buying new anyway if you dont find what you want but at least you allow yourself the option.

Mark

[Greg Peterson]

For me at least the answer would be, if budget allows, your core tools would be best bought new. After that (which is a lot) you can watch auctions, used outlets (woodweb, exfactory, Cl, etc) , and so on trying to find good options for remaining items.

Indeed. Buying a core tool used is a roll of the dice. No warranty, no manufacturer support. At least new you have someone providing tech support. Hopefully.

[Jay Allen]

There is indeed a lot of information to digest in this thread.
My first thought is about the slider saw recommendation. Yes, they are great, the shop where I work has an older Holz-Her 1245. It is a big Euro-style beast with a scoring blade, great for sheet goods. But you still need a "regular" cabinet saw. Those big sliders are just too unruly for anything else and you certainly can't run a dado set on one.

I assumed that you deliberately left out the smaller hand and bench-top tools because you already own them. This is "going into business", but you have already been doing this kind of work, so you have the other stuff?

The main thing to think about in a "commercial use" situation is not the performance of your equipment on "day one". Most of the stuff on the market today could "do the job", maybe not the most comfortably, quickly, or efficiently....but it could. The thing is how long can it do it? That is the main difference between the well-known big name commercial grade equipment and hobbyist/homeowner stuff.
The "pro" stuff generally is more "robust" in most areas. Bearings are bigger, mounting points and fasteners are heavier, etc. These things stand-up much better in a commercial environment especially when employees get involved someday.
You would be amazed at how things get torn-up by "no body".

Also, I would not ditch the bandsaw, even if you drop down to a 14" model which can be powered by 110v, which makes it a lot more "handy". A jigsaw cannot do everything that a bandsaw can.

Dust collection is a big issue too. Depending upon the size/shape of your shop space, it may benefit you to have two smaller units than to have everything on one. The bigger they are, the louder and more annoying they get. If you have a couple of smaller units that are "zoned" in a way that you can work with only one running at a time, it is much nicer to live with. But even if you need both at once they are not twice as loud. Two making the same sound seem fairly equal. It's like having a radio on each end of the shop, instead of one and turning it up so you can hear it from the opposite end.

The shaper/planer/jointer question can only be answered by you and what you do. It depends upon how much work you intend to do with solid wood and how "intense" you are with it. A hobbyist can save money buying rough lumber and doing all of the surfacing. In a commercial situation, that time is costing money, whether that is you not doing something else or paying an employee. You have to work that out, the lower material cost may not work out because of labor costs.
Initially a lot of shops buy doors (frame and panel) because of the cost and build the rest of the boxes. Many continue to do it, especially on the more commonly available styles and species. Some opt to make the more exotic things in-house, again that depends upon your clientèle and what you choose to offer.

I have worked in a fairly big shop (15-20 guys) for nearly 7 years, doing everything from "production run" melamine and laminate cabinets to hi-end case-work and trim for attorney's offices, libraries, and homes....but it's still just one guy's opinion.

[Karl Brogger]

Dust collection is a big issue too. Depending upon the size/shape of your shop space, it may benefit you to have two smaller units than to have everything on one. The bigger they are, the louder and more annoying they get. If you have a couple of smaller units that are "zoned" in a way that you can work with only one running at a time, it is much nicer to live with. But even if you need both at once they are not twice as loud. Two making the same sound seem fairly equal. It's like having a radio on each end of the shop, instead of one and turning it up so you can hear it from the opposite end.

Another thing to consider is when you're working alone, or only one piece is running that requires dust collection, it makes more sense to have a 3hp machine switched ON pulling on only part of the shop, VS paying the electric bill on a 20hp machine that isn't being fully utilized.

I split my shop into two zones mainly for this reason. For the most part I work alone, and didn't want to pay the electric bill on a monstrous dust collector pulling on a dozen machines when I only need it on a couple. The other reason being the smaller units that made sense for what I needed, (7-10hp range), are extremely expensive on the used market right now. Whereas I found plenty of 20-40,000 cfm dust collectors for some really reasonable prices. If I had a place to store it until I was ready for such a beast I would do so.



Wiring is another thing to budget for. I bent/hung all of the conduit myself, and paid an electrician for a day to pull the wire. I still spent $1700 on that. Wiring may be easy, but I'm an idiot. :D I'm not smart enough to keep my hands outta sharp spinning objects sometimes, much less touching a nice quiet unsuspecting feed in a panel. I'd be riding the lightning in no time if I had to fish around in the box.

[Mark Bolton]

It is a big Euro-style beast with a scoring blade, great for sheet goods. But you still need a "regular" cabinet saw. Those big sliders are just too unruly for anything else and you certainly can't run a dado set on one.

We dont run a cabinet saw in our shop though I wouldnt mind having one if the right one fell in our lap. We do everything on the panelsaw. Yeah some operations are a little awkward but we most certainly run dado blades on our saw.

Mark

[Dave MacArthur]

You can see from posts above some folks use a shaper all the time, some don't--it really depends on the exact things you're building and your workflow.

I don't have a woodworking business, but I make similar "capital investment" decisions for tools to run a 30-40 house property management business where I often subcontract repairs to my own handyman LLC also. One of the lessons I've learned is SUBCONTRACTING can be critical--we very often can't do parts of a job as cost effectively as specialists, and trying to do so only eats into our time and bottom line. Particularly when you would need to invest a lot of $$ for a tool to even try some aspect of a job. Another critical lesson is the cost of buying inventory and keeping it ready for a job, vs. letting some box store or lumberyard store/protect/insure inventory and just getting it when you need it.

I'd agree with the philosophy above of GETTING THE BUSINESS and JOBS first, doing the max you can with the min tools, and only acquire additional tools as you need them. As you actually do jobs you'll decide what tools you yourself need or could use at a profit, and then keep your eyes open for them at a good deal used. There's a reason that salesman make more in salary at virtually company than the shop workers--getting the sale and business is more difficult and vastly more critical to a business's survival than cranking the job out. Since you'll have to do both, minimize your cost and debt by just purchasing tools as you need them, and "making do" while you look for good deals to grow the business infrastructure (tools).

I would recommend against getting a shaper INITIALLY. There can be a huge investment in cutters and tooling for a shaper. Many of the profiles can be made on a router table.

You stated your business plan was to do built-ins, and mentioned historic districts and paint. This tells me much of your work will be painted, and I'm assuming colonial historic or something other than arts and crafts, so things will be painted. THIS tells me you can build up profiles if needed, and that the profiles will probably be fairly simple (historic), so I'd expect to be able to do them on a router... or at least I'd go with this SAFER capital investment plan until proven otherwise.

Karl has some fantastic words up above, every one of them valuable and from a guy in the thick of it... I sure wouldn't assume my profit experience was going to be better than his until proven by completed jobs. I very much enjoy reading posts from woodworking business owners, and I always find Karl's to be straight and to the point.

Good luck!

[marc lewis]

Dont do it. To many shops all ready closed due to the economy.There's also are large aray of used equipment. Never buy chiwannese.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm 9 years into my business and first thing that I wonder is do you have a job right now? If so I can't imagine why you would even consider opening a shop right now. The chances are very likely this recession will go on for several more years and there's not much positive to focus on right now. Go check out some of the forums geared towards pros and you'll see some of the reality of what we're going through these days.

Do you have any business experience? It's one thing to make something for family and friends and get some play money, a whole other ballgame to support yourself with it.

There are many more questions but I don't want to get too sidetracked, You asked about equipment. My thoughts are that buying everything new is great if you have the budget to spend $100k or more depending on what you need. I started out with the same mis-conception many here have that newer is better. NOT TRUE! Better is better, buy the best machine you can afford. I've gradually replaced the new machines I bought with much better quality used machines. Did I have to look around a little bit and spend a little time doing cleanup....sure I did. Was it worth it...absolutely. I replaced an almost $4k 20" new Asian import planer I bought new within a year for a $1000 30+ year old SCMI planer...I lost money and it was still worth it. I replaced a $2500 24" new dual drum sander with an almost 40 year old $750 widebelt.... worth every penny. I still have a brand new 5hp yellow shaper many here might consider a dream machine, I'm chomping at the bit to replace. If I had it all to do again I'd buy everything used and would have saved myself a lot of time and more importantly money. The key is knowing what YOU need and knowing what quality machinery is.

As for which machines you'll need that comes down to the type of work you'll be doing day to day. For instance if you were just going to build Euro style cabinetry you could get yourself an edgebander, panel saw, and boring machine and pretty much be off to work. If your going the other end of the spectrum and try to do what I do....a little bit of everything, your going to require a lot more equipment. One thing I do disagree with is the shaper tooling cost concern. As a pro shop you buy completely differently than a hobby shop. You don't just buy a bunch of cutters you think you might use, or buy stuff because it's on sale. You buy the cutter or knife you need to do the job you have, and you figure part or even all of the cost of the cutter into the job. If it's for instance a set of door cutters you might figure part of the cost into a job as you'll likely be using them on many other projects. If someone comes to you for a custom profile, that knife is figured into the cost of the job.

Other things to think about financially, some of which have already been mentioned but are worth repeating.....finishing setup, dust collection, (my setup cost a bit over $3k just for the ductwork and I installed it myself), electrical (including possibly having to add more lighting depending on the space you get), computer and software, shop insurance, any necessary local permits.

I don't usually like to encourage others to not try and live the 'dream' of starting their own business. On the other hand I think it's important to not go into it blindly as a romantic notion of what life could be. This is an online forum and we don't really know anything about you, your situation, your talents skills etc. So only you can decide if this is the right move for you. If you do decide to go ahead with it I suggest doing as much preparation as possible ahead of time, and have an emergency fund stashed away for unforseen problems. I also truly wish you the best of luck, it's a tough economy but some of us are still here slogging through it....always room for one more!
Oh yeah....go read karl's advice again.....good stuff.
good luck,
JeffD

[jed piatt]

Yes. its come up a couple of times, I am currently working and have a few small shop related jobs lined up. Ive been in the carpentry field for almost 10 yrs now. I have been a sub contractor for about 5 and am advancing what I can offer to the local contractors by being able to expand my ability to put out a better product (on site built ins are great buuutttt..... ehh). With the shop I will also start doing my own jobs. trying to keep my vision small for now, but I want to be prepared for when the big job lands and I can say "ya I can do that".

[Doug Sewell]

Don't worry about having the equipment for the BIG JOB that just happens to fall in your lap. There are always ways to get things done another way. When I started my compay, ( not wood ralated ) I made the mistake of waiting two months on equipment. Two months of not making money! I't would've been harder to do but it could have been done. The next major machine purchase that I made was paid for by doing it the hard way first. And when the BIG JOB does come be honest with the client and yourself, don't give timelines you can't make and make sure you are able to do the work. I was a subcontractor for one of the borgs in the Atlanta area and nothing brought in more work for me than a company not able to do what they said they could. I started out working with two stores and with in roughly two to three years I was working with 20+.
Good luck and have fun.

[Dave Avery]

My advice? Have you been watching the news lately? People ain't spending money right now.... I'd look into different things, mainly being working for someone else.

I've been doing wood working for 13 years now. 1-1/2 doing plastic laminate countertops, the rest as a cabinetmaker. Almost seven years on my own.

Buy new what you can, but don't be set on buying new stuff. I made this mistake when I started on my own in early 2004 and for budgetary reasons it created a lot of obstacles. Yeah, new stuff is nice, but money goes really quickly doing that. You've got a budget of $6500, and to be completely honest that won't get you very far. You've got a extremely large amount of crap to buy. There are plenty of deals out there on used equipment, it takes some time, and some patience but its out there. I got some absolute steals the past few years. I know I'll catch hell for this, but while Grizzly may have gotten a heck of a lot better than they were, its still garbage in my opinion. Around here you don't see too much in a commercial setting. I also view most of the newer equipment to be not up to spec in the quality department with what was being produced ten or fifteen years ago. Almost all of the Powermatic equipment that I had purchased new, or built recently has been a disappointment to some degree.

I spent $2500 on dust collection for my new shop. That was just pipe and gates. Something to keep in mind.

DO NOT GO IN DEBT FOR EQUIPMENT! This is what folded so many shops. Work slows down, and all of the sudden you can't make the payments. For many it is a gamble that did not pay. I also do not see the benefit to leasing equipment.

You don't have anything listed for boring hinge cups. I think I paid $1700 for my Blum mini press new, used ones are out there. There are also other options, but the press from the hinge manufacture does pay for itself in a fairly short amount of time.

Renting is not cheap. My new shop costs about $17k a year just to have somewhere to work. I had my shop in some space that I rented from family when I started. I could not have done it with out keeping my overhead as low as possible. It scares the crap out of me having that kind of costs per month now. Plus I think my liability insurance, insurance on the tools, and something to cover product en-route costs me another $1800 per year. (I think)

You don't have to worry about employee's for a while, or the associated costs. You won't have enough equipment to keep more than two hands occupied. But, you will be working plenty of hours to make up for it.:D

I would incorporate. Buy your tools personally then rent/lease them to the company. Most of my company's tools are rented from me personally. The key benefit here being that what you make from rent is unearned income, and you do not have to pay the 15.3% Medicare/S.S. taxes on it. Some states general contractors will not do business with a sole proprietor anymore.

Keep as much cash available as possible. When a deal comes along, missing it can be more costly than not. I went frickin' broke buying up used stuff when things really fell apart a few years ago. When you have a lean spell, (it'll happen, trust me), you still need to pay for your space if renting from someone other than am extremely understanding family member.:o

Don't worry about making doors right off the bat. You can't afford the equipment at this point to make it profitable anyway. Don't bother with a drum sander, save your pennies and pick up a decent used widebelt.

I personally hate sliding tablesaws, with one caveat. If you have an over head panel lift to load the thing they aren't bad for knocking out sheet stock. A good vertical panel-saw, (Striebig, Holz-Herr, etc.) can rip and crosscut multiple sheets at one time, don't take up as much square footage, extremely safe, easy to use, and plenty accurate when cared for. Busting up sheets on a regular tablesaw does suck, but so does constantly changing the shop vs making additions to the shop.

You need to establish what kind of market you want to be in. Who are your cliental? When I started my shop, I didn't want to be slugging it out with the bottom of the gene pool. Around here the majority of the shops are using Melamine, I use plywood. Melamine drawers w/ epoxy slides, I do birch or cherry dovetails with under-mount slides. I don't get too many customers that shop the box cabinet world. I build as good a quality product as I can, and am constantly trying to improve upon that. While I may be expensive as hell, I perceive my cabinetry to be a good value.

Bid what you need to get for a job. There's no justification to working for free. You can sit on the couch and not make money, no reason going into the shop and suck up dust to do it. Starting out you are in no position to try and take down the "other guy". But, you do need to get your name out there. Its a tricky balance I guess when starting out. I don't adjust pricing for anything. I know my costs, what I need to make off of a job, and I try to maintain an image of being higher end.

Never, ever talk down the competition. Point out what makes your product superior when dealing with potential customers.

Reinvest as much as possible back into the business. It lowers your tax liability, and hopefully makes you more money.


I started off by telling you to do something else. With that said, if you can make it work in a crap housing market, when things come back around you will be sitting pretty. Self employment has its benefits, and its drawbacks. I don't play well with others, so its the best avenue for me. You will work some horrendous hours. You will be making next to nothing for a while. Heck, I think I'm doing okay, and I still probably make less per hour than my last job working for someone else. There's been plenty of late nights at the shop, or late nights at the computer doing drawings, and bidding. Plus traveling to measure or meet with customers eats up an enormous amount of time.

Some days the juice is worth the squeeze, some days all you want to do is pull the plug.


I wish you good luck.

Amazingly good advice.... a must read for those contemplating creating any new business. I'd emphasize that not only do you need to target the more affluent customer, you need access to them until you build a word-of-mouth following; easier said than done. Also, it's a rare person that is a skilled craftsman, finisher, sales person, and business person. Unless you can do ALL of these things, it's going to be a very tough road. Best.... Dave.

[johnny means]

Dont do it. To many shops all ready closed due to the economy.There's also are large aray of used equipment. Never buy chiwannese.

You would be surprised, but some of us with a little imagination, drive , and ingenuity are swamped with work and haven't felt the affects of the recession. My sister in law started building million dollar homes 5 years ago and has more work than she can handle. Of course, the houses she builds are of a higher caliber than the crap Toll Bros and K Hovnian were throwing up a few years ago. The key is to differentiate yourself and figure out what people are still willing to bleed a little for. As far as shop closings go, I feel as though I am perfectly positioned for the upcoming recovery. I would advise the OP to start out in a manner in which crashing and burning wouldn't ruin his life. For me that meant a co-op shop for my first three years. When I was confident that I had staying power , that's when I left the nest and bought my own equipment.

[Mike Cruz]

Jed, in my opinion, here's the deal...

You need the tools that YOU need to do woodworking the way YOU do them. If you have any experience in wwing, and it seems you probably do, you already know what tools you need...at least what kinds of tools. Which specific ones is the trick. I would take the advice of the larger planer and larger DP. Do you need a sliding TS? I, along with a million and two others, have gotten along without one. Does it make certain jobs easier? Certainly! Do you need it? You decide.

I also agree that used is the way to go. The other day, I tallied up all the machines in my shop. I thought about how much I could get for each if I HAD to sell them...NOW. I came up with $8000. I could get more if I could wait for the perfect buyers, but I know I could fetch $8K easily. Now, I got them all used. I didn't even spend half of that! But I guarantee you one thing. Had I bought all new stuff for 8K, and HAD to sell them (even 1 year later) I would only be able to fetch about 5K. That's the difference. I've accumulated all my machines in about a year. One just came, but I was late to the party even looking for it. If you NEED a shop immediatly for a reasonable price, getting all Grizzly is a sound choice. If you have about a year, live on CL, and go to/bid on auctions (both Ebay and local).

[Stephen Cherry]

The key is to differentiate yourself and figure out what people are still willing to bleed a little for..

Great marketing advice!

[Mark Bolton]

My sister in law started building million dollar homes 5 years ago and has more work than she can handle. Of course, the houses she builds are of a higher caliber than the crap Toll Bros and K Hovnian were throwing up a few years ago.

We know many in this situation and we too have plenty of work having yet to feel a bump. Personally I think the reason why the high dollar is still moving is because this "recession" was tailor made for those individuals, and I do mean made. This has been the perfect situation for a lot of people profit from a lot of chaos and others misfortune which is why we see the chaos fertilized every day.

Regardless, you still have to be able to deliver a quality product at this level so good for anyone who is able to take a good bit of this high end money.

Mark

[Don Bullock]

...The key is knowing what YOU need and knowing what quality machinery is...

... As for which machines you'll need that comes down to the type of work you'll be doing day to day. ...
JeffD

The advice that Jeff gave you is great! Decide which machine(s) you need for a particular job that you will be doing long term. Find the best affordable one to fit that particular need. If you build your shop that way you will be running sooner and you'll waste less money. Take it slowly. You don't need everything at once. More importantly, watch your bottom line and enjoy.

[Bob Riefer]

Dave wrote:


it's a rare person that is a skilled craftsman, finisher, sales person, and business person


and Johnny wrote:


The key is to differentiate yourself


Sorry to hijack a little and not answer your original question, I'm not qualified to answer that question. But, since this thread has turned a bit into whether to start a business or not....

Seems to me, that being a good sales and business person can very well be the differentiating factor that leads to success. Lots of people can do whatever task is being discussed. Lots of people can be a good sales or business person. NOT a lot of people can be all those things.

I know that in all aspects of my own personal and business life I choose to interact with people that are professional, prompt, courteous, hit deadlines, see the project vision.. AND, if all those things are satisfied, deliver a quality product at a fair price (NOT lowest price in many instances). These types of people get recommendations and referrals from me consistently which helps business sustainability.

I also have experienced many contractors, consultants, neighbors, soccer coaches, church members.... who do not call back, do not show up on time, are not pleasant to work with, prepare sloppy paperwork, cannot see the vision, gouge on price for crap quality... Which is exactly why I think excelling in the non-product aspects is really so important.

[Steve Griffin]

We know many in this situation and we too have plenty of work having yet to feel a bump. Personally I think the reason why the high dollar is still moving is because this "recession" was tailor made for those individuals, and I do mean made. This has been the perfect situation for a lot of people profit from a lot of chaos and others misfortune which is why we see the chaos fertilized every day.

Regardless, you still have to be able to deliver a quality product at this level so good for anyone who is able to take a good bit of this high end money.

Mark

I've kept busy too, and I'm booked about 6 months out.

But my take is quite the opposite. The extremely rich in our area (teton county wy. is rated as one of the richest in the country) have been hammered by the economy more than anyone. The 20 million dollar houses are sitting empty not selling at 7 mill, and there is no new construction above about 2 mill.

It's the good old upper middle class where I'm getting work. Folks who still have good jobs bringing in money, who have lost interest in stock market or real-estate, are sitting around their house saying--"gee, this kitchen sucks"

Thank goodness for the high number of horribly designed and falling apart kitchens--

One other comment for the opening poster: Sure, many small operations are doing fine or have just downsized, but I can't think of more than one customer in the last 3 years who didn't come to me from past connections.

In others words, I'd be dead in the water without past clients, contractors and word of mouth from the boom days....

-Steve

[Steve Jenkins]

Lots of great info and advice. I have been self-employed building custom furniture and cabinetry for 28 years now.Only two things I want to say and I say them with humor is when someone says how great it must be to set your own hours I reply with, it sure is just pick whichever 100 plus you want to work per week.
The other is, have you noticed how much the work entrepreneur sounds like I tripped in manure.

[Karl Brogger]

The other is, have you noticed how much the work entrepreneur sounds like I tripped in manure.


HA!

Not bad. :D

[Mark Bolton]

But my take is quite the opposite. The extremely rich in our area (teton county wy. is rated as one of the richest in the country) have been hammered by the economy more than anyone.
-Steve

Steve,
I am sure it varies from location to location. All I know is, the majority of people I speak with in the trade from suppliers to contractors are saying that in many locations extreme high end (perhaps not new construction) is all thats moving.

I am sure my cynicism is clear, but stretching all the way back to when gas blew up to 4.05/gal. there have been a lot of people making obscene amounts of money in this "worst recession since the great depression". Crying whoa is me the whole way. I dont know many of my fellow middle-class mates that have been making large sums of money. Some are treading water, some doing fine, some suffering.

We are booked out well into next summer and due to our location the vast majority of our work is from the average joe who is looking for high end quality. What I have been hoping for out of this -what-ever-you-want-to-call-it, is for the average consumer to finally get tired of spending hard earned dollars on low quality low cost junk and be willing to pay a *little* more for something that will last. I dont see it happening while people are struggling financially but one could hope that when money starts to come back and fear starts to ease off they may see years past differently. I am never very optimistic about it but always maintain hope.

Mark

[Karl Brogger]

What I have been hoping for out of this -what-ever-you-want-to-call-it, is for the average consumer to finally get tired of spending hard earned dollars on low quality low cost junk and be willing to pay a *little* more for something that will last.


Me too.

Sadly most of the really expensive homes I've walked through really aren't that great. They're usually just huge.

I don't think its even so much a location thing. I was talking to a machinery salesman today, he said that 75 cabinet shops have gone under since 2007 in the Minneapolis area. That's alot. Talking to guys around here that are still in business, its hit n' miss. Some have work, some don't.

I'm currently swamped, but thats more from short schedules than anything. Once the stuff I'm working on right now is wrapped up I'm going to Florida for a month just because there's nothing else that really has to be done until mid-January. Then I've got two more houses to do. Which will keep me busy until maybe mid-March. After that, nothing certain on the radar.

[Dave MacArthur]

Yeah, this is an interesting thread, with lots of great business advice from folks who have been there...
...so we probably don't need to have posts stating the rich are evil and preying on the poor, blah blah... Let's not stray into class politics and get it shut down hey? Save that for your Das Kapital reading group... ;)

[jed piatt]

so it looks like im adding an old dewalt/B&D RAS model # 7790. I wanted on of the models that has 24" draw but every thing I found was 3 phase or 5hp. for $200 I figure Ill try it out, if I dont like it refurbish it and sell it for a little more.

the saw is in great shape and from an older builder who was putting up post and beam barns back when i wasnt even a thought, I think we talked for a half hr in the cold befor we realized we were both shivering from new england weather.

[Mark Bolton]

Me too.

Sadly most of the really expensive homes I've walked through really aren't that great. They're usually just huge.


We have been in many of those as well. Recently did a job in one of the wealthier parts of our area. More mini-mcmansions not quite mcmansions. Was the same there, lots of low quality cabinets and more so low quality furnishings and gee gaws. This is a bit of what I am concerned about though is that there has been an overall acceptance of low quality. It may just be the way its going to be but one can hope I suppose.

We too are covered up with work right now and calls continually come in for spring and summer work. At the moment it doesnt look like we will see a slow down but I think that has a lot to do with our area and the type of work we do. That said, much of the work that is out several months is not on deposit yet so the *poof* factor is in full effect.

Mark

[Karl Brogger]

That said, much of the work that is out several months is not on deposit yet so the *poof* factor is in full effect.


I don't count on anything until I get the final payment, and the job is done.:D I've had too many things that I thought were sure, just evaporate. Even when you do get a down payment, there's always the risk of getting hosed. I've been extremely lucky in that respect. I try to be careful who I do work for, and to what scale. Meaning if you got a bad rap as a general, but all you need is a vanity, I'll whip it up, and hope to get paid. But I won't go floating $60k worth of cabinets and finishing for a house with the same hopes.