progress in turning requires appropriate tools

[Roger Chandler]

It has become painfully apparent [mostly in my wallet] that in order to rise to the higher steps in turning that an outlay of funds [think lots and lots of $$$$$$] for additional tools is what mostly allows a turner to step up his/her game in the types of forms and techniques that can be done with a high level of achievement.

Embellishment - outlay for carving tools, or pryrography equipment,dyes,etc
Hollowing - captured, articulated or home made versions, and steady rest
finials - detail gouges, vortex tools, etc.
bowls -special gouges, vacuum chucks, donut chucks, jam chucks

Wouldn't it be great if there were about 4 or 5 tools that one could do everything with at a high level of achievement? Of course we always have someone who thinks outside the box and comes up with something new, and it becomes all the rage, and everyone wants to get in on it, so a few basic tools is most probably a pipe dream.

Oh, this VORTEX- it is diabolical and mesmerizes the weak and the strong willed alike. It is an exercise in futility to resist.

I think this forum is part of its diabolical strategy! :eek: What say you? ;)

[Scott Hackler]

I think that there is some truth to this, but a skilled turner doesn't "need" the fancy stuff in order to most of what we see turned. For example; I am no master, but I could likely do 90% of all the stuff I am interested in turning with a 3/8" bowl gouge. It would make roughing a less than enjoyable venture, but doable. I wouldn't enjoy the fine detail work... at all, but could do a lot of it with this tool.

I guess the thing to learn, for the new or newer turner, is that there is a "right tool" for the right job. Most of them are just specialized tools that make our craft a LOT easier.

Take hollowing for example. I only have a Sorby Hollowmaster and a couple home made hollowing tools. They work prety good, but they are nothing compared to Randy's Monster stuff. I know that the hollowing process would be a lot more enjoyable with his set up, but I dont do that much in the HF department.... so its not worth it to me (at this time).

I have a lot of tools now, and if needed.. I could narrow it down to 3-4 tools that would allow me to do just about anything I care to turn.

That being said... I am still looking to buy a Nova Ornamental Turner setup, just because I WANT IT!!! :)

[Jake Helmboldt]

Remeber that David Ellsworth does his hollowing with homemade, handheld tools. No articulated systems for him that I know of.

I was at the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship this week in Rockport, ME (just checking the place out) and while talking to one of the instructors he made the comment that the hobbiest shops that have the best tools often produce the lowest quality work.

As Scott said, various tools/machinery make things easier (or sometimes simply more convenient), but there is no magic.

[Roger Chandler]

Remeber that David Ellsworth does his hollowing with homemade, handheld tools. No articulated systems for him that I know of.


Jake,

You are correct about Ellsworth......I purchased the hollowing tools I have from him directly, but the torque on the bent tool makes it rough, especially in a harder wood. An articulated system or captured handle like Jammeson's would make things a lot easier and the lazer is a great tool to help from going too thin and turn through the outer wall.

One can go about the craft the hard way, and it may teach us more in the long run, but the wear and tear on the body is a consideration to think about.........at least that is what John K. tells us as to why he got the articulated rig from Monster.

[Roger Chandler]

I think that there is some truth to this, but a skilled turner doesn't "need" the fancy stuff in order to most of what we see turned.

there is a "right tool" for the right job. Most of them are just specialized tools that make our craft a LOT easier.

. I only have a Sorby Hollowmaster and a couple home made hollowing tools. They work prety good, but they are nothing compared to Randy's Monster stuff. I know that the hollowing process would be a lot more enjoyable with his set up,

I have a lot of tools now,

Scott,

I agree with a lot of what you said. There are turnings like a deep hollowed vase, that my sorby hollowmaster just will not accomplish, and also a steady rest is needed to keep it, well, steady!

There is indeed a better tool for the job on most things we do, including auto repairs. I would much rather have a set of ratchet wrenches of all sizes, than try to do a big repair on a vehicle with just an adjustable wrench. Maybe it can be done, but it will be a lot better, faster, and easier with a full set!

Same in woodturning........you can get by at times, with basic things, and get mediocre results, or have the right tools and get superior results.

I like your ornaments........they are really nice!

[Richard Madden]

I know what you're talking about, Roger. I try my best to resist what seems to be the "latest rage", but often times I give in. Another thing I do is, if I really want something I research it and decide if I can make it myself. That in itself can be pretty satisfying, making a tool and getting good results with it.

[Roger Chandler]

I know what you're talking about, Roger. I try my best to resist what seems to be the "latest rage", but often times I give in. Another thing I do is, if I really want something I research it and decide if I can make it myself. That in itself can be pretty satisfying, making a tool and getting good results with it.

I agree Richard, but one has to have the requisite tools needed to build tools. I am still interested in the articulated hollowing rig you sent info to me about.

I like to do things myself when I can, but having the time to invest in making something also is hard to come by at times. There are times I am lucky to get in any time at the lathe during a week. I November so far, I have only had about 90 minutes to do anything turning related, except getting on this forum once in while :eek::D;)

[John Keeton]

One can go about the craft the hard way, and it may teach us more in the long run, but the wear and tear on the body is a consideration to think about.........at least that is what John K. tells us as to why he got the articulated rig from Monster.

If one thinks about it, most turning done prior to this past century was done by low paid, apprentices working for a master furniture maker. With the industrial revolution, much of that handwork became machine work. It is only in the past few decades that the "art" of woodturning has come into being.

So, until recent times, woodturning has been "work." Most of us now do it for enjoyment.

I do agree that everyone should hollow a few forms by hand and learn the feel of the tools. But, at this point in life, when I "work" at something, it better pay considerably more!!!:D I want to fully enjoy what I do, and that is why I like to have the right tools.

Scott is correct, most of us could do what we do with very few tools, but the enjoyment factor would be much lower - at least, for me.

I actually am a minimalist, and have very few turning tools. In fact, I am getting ready to thin a few out here shortly. I don't like tools lying around unused, but I do understand those that think differently.;)

And, every now and then, I do acquire another tool based on Scott's criterion -


That being said... I am still looking to buy a Nova Ornamental Turner setup, just because I WANT IT!!! :)

[Jim Burr]

Years ago, an old hunter said "You can bring a bear down with a .22, but do you need to?" A .22 takes skill and precision, a .308 takes one shot almost anywhere and your done." I think my next bowl will be done with my 3/8 Taylor...see what...if anything I'm made of :eek::eek:;)

[Roger Chandler]

Years ago, an old hunter said "You can bring a bear down with a .22, but do you need to?" The .22 takes skill and precision, a .308 takes one shot almost anywhere and your done. I think my next bowl will be done with my 3/8 Taylor...see what...if anything I'm made of :eek::eek:;)


Jim, since I am an avid hunter myself, I like the quote you gave us above. I have used a 3/8 bowl gouge to hollow my first HF, and also used my Sorby hollowmaster on it as well..........did not get the results I wanted, when I have used my Ellsworth hollowing tools, they do an even better job.....they are designed for the job.

I like the idea of using my .300Win Magnum, as it takes care of most anything I shoot with it in short order! :D I still try to use skill and precision in shot placement.........the deer don't get up!

My favorite is to use a bow and arrow..........that really takes skill, and is my most preferred method.

[Dennis Ford]

We all get cravings for new tools. I try to decide if I need a tool to do a certain type of project or want a tool to make it easier. Most of the time it is "want" (that is not bad thing but it is good to know the difference). Learning how to do things without fancy tools is satisifying at times and always improves the results you can get once you have the fancy tools.

[Thom Sturgill]

I have a large, varied collection of tools with a few holes waiting to be filled (hollowing and coring systems). I understand the comment about the well equipped hobby shop as some expect the tool to provide the expertise to use it. The reason I have so many? I do not sell and am about 2 years away from retirement - figured I better buy whatever I'm going to need NOW before my income drops 30%.

All that said, I am also on a learning binge, and try to use each new tool (and technique) until I feel comfortable with it. Some, I may never be comfortable with and will part with instead.

[Roger Chandler]

I have a large, varied collection of tools with a few holes waiting to be filled (hollowing and coring systems). I understand the comment about the well equipped hobby shop as some expect the tool to provide the expertise to use it. The reason I have so many? I do not sell and am about 2 years away from retirement - figured I better buy whatever I'm going to need NOW before my income drops 30%.

All that said, I am also on a learning binge, and try to use each new tool (and technique) until I feel comfortable with it. Some, I may never be comfortable with and will part with instead.

Makes perfect sense to me, Thom!:)

[Jim Burr]

There is indeed a better tool for the job on most things we do, including auto repairs. I would much rather have a set of ratchet wrenches of all sizes, than try to do a big repair on a vehicle with just an adjustable wrench. Maybe it can be done, but it will be a lot better, faster, and easier with a full set!

If I may add to that Roger...some things are flat out impossible...ever try a crescent wrench on a spark plug?...on a '73 BMW...in the rain...at night...in Detriot...after the Loins lose?:D:D Can you really make an entire bowl, from square block to finish, with a detail gouge? I'm thinking nope;)

[Fred Perreault]

One could play a whole round of golf with a 7 iron and a putter(our group used to play "any 5 clubs" often), but that would not be quite so enjoyable, and improving one's game and score would be a chore. I started with very few tools, and gradually aquired more as the game got better. I have even taken tools that I have not used or needed like I thought I would, and altered them for a specific task. I imagine most of us have done that. I think some of the fun is in the shopping.... ain't that what the missus says? :)

[Roger Chandler]

Jim and Fred,

I could not agree with you both more! You both make some great points here, and besides, I maybe just a little like Tim-the-tool-man-Taylor, at least in that I enjoy having a lot of tools! [MORE POWER! :eek::cool:;):D:D]

I just don't like having to need them to further my turning, but alas, that is the VORTEX for you!

[George Guadiane]

I have LOTS of tools.
The ones I use most fit in half of my tool rack - I just took everything out of it to clean off the shavings, and decided to take the tools I'm actually turning with out of the bucket and put just those in the rack...
The net result is that I use the tools that work for me. And the tools that work for me, for the most part are the ones I learned with. I have many replacements and "upgrades," but with the exception of my little Nano Revolution tools collection, I still like my old gouges and sharpened screwdrivers best.
Long ago, a painter friend of mine did billboards for a living... He was really a talented man. As a joke one day, the guys stranded him at a remote billboard without any of his brushes. They figured they would have a good laugh over him not being able to work for a whole day.
When they came back to get him, the sign was done. He had gone into the brush and with nothing but a pocketknife, fashioned brushes good enough to allow his talents to shine through.
It's not the tool, its the person holding it.
Good tools DO help, of course, but good technique and resourcefulness goes a long way in compensating.

[Roger Chandler]

It's not the tool, its the person holding it.
Good tools DO help, of course, but good technique and resourcefulness goes a long way in compensating.


YEP! That is why I am pushing ahead, trying to learn new forms, techniques and methods, and finishes!

[Richard Madden]

It's not the tool, its the person holding it.

Well said. I don't know how many of you have seen Mike Mahoney's Hollow Forms and Urns video, but he uses a Stewart handheld hollower and in the discussion about tools, he stands next to a captive hollowing rig and says, "some even consider this cheating". Mike does some top notch turning, without the conveinience of modern technology. Personally, I prefer to cheat.:D:D

[John Keeton]

This thread reminds me of a friend of mine. He refuses to cut weeds with a nice Stihl weedeater with a good sharp brushblade. Instead, he insists on using an old mowing sythe - he wants the exercise. I suggested he was begging for a heartattack, instead!

I grew up with one of those, and not at all interested in using one so long as my Stihl is still working!!!:D:D;)

I am sure this will garner some disagreement, but there was little "fun" in hollowing a vessel by hand for me. It was just plain WORK! I did it simply because it was a necessary step to get to the fun part.

Now, with a hollowing system, I actually enjoy hollowing, and my elbow, wrist and shoulder really, really appreciate the new toy!:)

I feel the same about some of my other turning tools - they take the physical or mental stress out of the task, leaving the fun.

[Roger Chandler]

I understand both sentiments, but the bottom line for me is that I would much rather use my Husqvarna chainsaw than my grandaddy's old hand held cross cut saw to cut wood.

I can get much more done in much shorter time! I always heard "work smarter, not harder" and that is why I have power tools in the first place. I mean, I like a good hand plane, but I like using a power planer for large tasks, as the time I have to devote to my hobby is limited, and the more I can get done quickly with good results........well it just is smarter for me.

Same principle with wood turning tools..........what helps me with time and efficiency also make me have proficiency!

[Steve Vaughan]

I'm just thinking that it creates a great excuse to get 'just one more thing!' :D Actually, when the vortex was in full force, I've gotten lots of stuff. Now I'm realizing that I'm needing (and wanting) to be a little more specific as to need and want. My next jump will most likely be some sort of hollowing system, hopefully a self-made kind. But as I do that, I'm gonna be taking a good long look at what I don't need any longer and needing to let go...that alone is likely to be the hardest durn part of turning, way harder than learning to turn!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Roger my granddad always tried to instill in me when we were making furniture to the day he died that it is not the tool or how many tools a man had that makes the man skilled. Of course today I buy more tools than I need but have cut back and started learning how to use them.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger my granddad always tried to instill in me when we were making furniture to the day he died that it is not the tool or how many tools a man had that makes the man skilled. Of course today I buy more tools than I need but have cut back and started learning how to use them.


Bernie,

I guess I opened up a can of worms with this thread......not intentionally. To me competence on anything you do is a given, and maybe I did not express that.
Everyone should know that no tool is a substitute for mastery and skill, but tools can be a great time and labor saver, and that is why commercial industry went from the horse drawn log skidding to dozer skidders.

Okay, that being said......personally, there is not a tool I own that I do not know how to use with competence, and there are still things I can learn on a lot of them. Wood turning is a specialized part of woodworking and it is the latest of many pursuits I have gone after, and I expect to become quite competent in its use and in the results I get as I apply myself to its skillset, just as I have done with the table saw, bandsaw and router, etc.

the point of my original post was that when going into new forms, and wanting to achieve a high level of achievement that additional tools are required like the steady rest, etc. New jigs, new techniques, new tools all help us achieve a better result than if we just go at a process without being fully equipped to get the good results.

It also cost a lot of good $$$$$!

[Curt Fuller]

This thread reminds me of a friend of mine. He refuses to cut weeds with a nice Stihl weedeater with a good sharp brushblade. Instead, he insists on using an old mowing sythe - he wants the exercise. I suggested he was begging for a heartattack, instead!

I grew up with one of those, and not at all interested in using one so long as my Stihl is still working!!!:D:D;)

I am sure this will garner some disagreement, but there was little "fun" in hollowing a vessel by hand for me. It was just plain WORK! I did it simply because it was a necessary step to get to the fun part.

Now, with a hollowing system, I actually enjoy hollowing, and my elbow, wrist and shoulder really, really appreciate the new toy!:)

I feel the same about some of my other turning tools - they take the physical or mental stress out of the task, leaving the fun.

I'm probably a little like John's stubborn friend. I tend to appreciate doing things the old fashioned way. But at the same time I have to agree that hollowing with hand held tools on a piece over 5" diameter is pure work. I now use a captured system and it truly is fun to hollow. But turning is becoming a popular hobby and with that there seems to be a flood of new tools on the market. I don't think you have to have every new tool system that comes along. And you can also make many of the tools available and get the pleasure of using a tool of your own making. Every turner here has a different budget for what they can spend on tools. But if there's the desire to turn there's usually a way to get around breaking the bank on tools.

[Don Alexander]

never seen a tool make anything yet :D:D:D

here is some technical data for clarification hehe

1tool

noun \ˈtül\
Definition of TOOL

1
a : a handheld device (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool#) that aids in accomplishing a task b (1) : the cutting or shaping part in a machine or machine tool (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool#) (2) : a machine for shaping metal : machine tool (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/machine+tool)

2
a : something (as an instrument or apparatus) used in performing an operation or necessary in the practice of a vocation or profession <a scholar's books (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool#) are his tools> b : an element of a computer program (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool#) (as a graphics application) that activates and controls a particular function <a drawing tool> c : a means to an end <a book's (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool#) cover can be a marketing tool> d often vulgar :
3

: one that is used or manipulated by another

4
plural : natural ability <has all the tools to be a great pitcher>

Origin of TOOL

Middle English, from Old English tōl; akin to Old English tawian to prepare for use — more at taw (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/taw) First Known Use: before 12th century