Wanna plan a bench

[Shawn Stennett]

I am going to buy Chris Swartz's books here in a couple days but I just want to ask you guys a few questions, about benches because I want to build one. There are many differnet styles of benches and I am having trouble deciding what features to chose. My main question is what style of bench do you have and what are the pros and cons and what do you wished you did instead.

[Jim Koepke]

There are many differnet styles of benches and I am having trouble deciding what features to chose. My main question is what style of bench do you have and what are the pros and cons and what do you wished you did instead.

I started out with a Black & Decker Workmate bench. Started to make my own when Woodcraft put the 5 foot long Sjoberg bench on sale.

168249

The bench has served me well and there are only a few things I would change.

The length would be a bit longer for working on bigger boards. Maybe as much as 8 feet long.

My preference would be for a thicker top, thicker aprons and also for the apron to extend a little more. I find it useful to have dog holes along the apron to support boards and to enable the use of hold fasts. My top and the apron is a bit thin and the hold fasts tend to deform the dog holes.

A heavier base would also be preferred. With long boards when planing I would often get lift off before a bucket full of cement was used to hold one end down. There is still a bit of wiggle in the base.

The top would be a bit wider and for my way of working, a tool tray would be handy.

I work with my bench away from the walls. There is another table behind it so currently there is not a way for me to walk around and work all sides of the bench. That may change soon.

One thing about my vises that is appreciated is they can be removed when they might get in the way. I also like that the face of the bench is the back of the vise. This is easy to clamp a long board to the apron when edge planing.

I like the idea of a wagon vise, but most of them seem to be a permanent fixture. I often clamp large panels to the tail end of the bench when working on them. Being able to remove the vise at these times is a definite advantage.

Sometimes I like to work on the tail end of the bench and have a vise like a face vise there for holding things. I would love to have a pattern maker's vise, but that may never come about. My vises only have about a 6" useable clamping before they run out of threads. Their capacity can be increased with the use of dogs and the holes on the bench.

So, this lets you know what my needs and desires are in a bench, but that may not be any help to you.

What kinds of projects are you planning to pursue?

Different projects can benefit from different bench designs. When I am doing a lot of edge jointing I often think it would be quicker to have a row of dogs and a wedge hook instead of a face vice. Of course, I like the idea of a longer bench when I am planing the face of a long board or a big panel. I also think about a wagon vise or planing stops at the end of the bench at those times.

Remember, a bench is just a tool to hold material while you are working on it. Think about the best way to hold the things on which you will be working. You will then be able to come up with a good design for your bench.

jtk

[Jeff Wittrock]

When I made my first bench (2nd really, my first was just a table), I didn't really know what I wanted, so I started out with an inexpensive bench made from SYP and a makeshift leg vise. I have just added to it as I wanted to try things out.

I don't have a recent picture, but I have since added a wagon vise, a retractable planing stop, and a sliding dead man to help hold boards up while planing.

Things I am glad I did:
Very glad to have the leg vise. If I ever build another bench it will have one.
The wagon vise also comes in very handy, and if I made another bench it would probably have that too.

Things I would like to do:
Add some kind of twin screw end vise... Something wide enough to clamp reasonable sized panels in especially when cutting dovetails.
Put some kind of shelf or storage between the stretchers

Things I didn't do that are hard to change:
I do wish I made it a little longer (it's 5' long), but that's kind of dictated by the space I have.

-Jeff

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

I built a split top roubo last winter and so far, wouldn't change a thing!

I'm just echoing what Chris Schwarz will tell you in his book: that the roubo style is the most versatile. The legs are flush with the edge of the table top so you can easily clamp boards (or even a door) on edge easily where on a traditonal cabinetmaker's bench you can not.

I like the split top too. It's nice to be able to slide an f-clamp ir even a k-body clamp in between the 2 tops for clamping narrower work pieces to your workbench. Plus the gap stop is quite handy for storing tools and cross planing. The added benefit of a split top is it can be built without any help from others. If you build a solid work top you will need help in flipping the top over.

During the build, I bought a used Ulmia bench because I thought I needed a bench to build a bench on. It had a storage drawer underneath where I kept a few small planes and chisels. It seemed every time I needed something in the drawer, either I had a board clamped on edge in the front vise or something clamped in the end vise where the bench dog was protruding down in front of the drawer, prohibiting me from any access to it. So my advise is do not put any kind of storage under the top, aside from maybe a single shelf down low. As for the Ulmia bench, it was nice to help me build a bench but it wasn't necessary. 2 sawhorses would have sufficed.

Good luck with your build, I had a blast with mine!

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

I built (well, still in the process...:o) a "mini-Roubo" as it is only 15" wide, 37" long and about 32" tall (I'm short :p). The top is 3.5" thick and the legs are 4"x5" and the whole thing weighs around 80lbs and stout. I used Chris Schwarz's book for the "basics" (ie, flush legs, huge mortise and tenon joints, solid top, etc) and tailored it for the size of my hobby room.

For me, building the bench was as much a learning experience as just having a bench. Sure, it makes hand tool woodworking much easier, but it also teaches you all kinds of useful skills. Incidentally, I think I like the concept of my "starter" bench, as it'll allow me to make a larger bench later on as my skills improve and I need a larger bench.

[Federico Mena Quintero]

Look at this old-but-running thread about workbenches; you'll pick up many ideas from there.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=124750

[Federico Mena Quintero]

Also, this is a fantastic tutorial on what you should consider while planning a bench:
http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/1/post/2010/04/episode-20-workbench-design-considerations.html

And look at this one starting at minute 17:19 for a demo of what a good bench lets you do:
http://www.logancabinetshoppe.com/1/post/2010/05/episode-23-workbench-work-holding.html

[Mark Dorman]

I based this bench off of a design from shopnotes and things from the Workbench book I have. I also used a page from my I don't know what I'm doing but won't let that stop me book. The bench is 24 x 84 x 34 tall. The shelf is two part and is removable with storage under it. One reason is using wasted space for storage of things not often used. the second reason for the bottom I thought if the bench was to light or unstable I could throw in a sand bag for weight and you wouldn't see it. So far the only thing I would do differant is the dog holder needs to be longer because when the handle is vertical it is higher than the top and I back into it with my longer planes. I just avoid it or use a scrap to add distance though so its not to bad. Have fun with your build.

[Steve Branam]

I've built two benches over the past year, a Roubo, and a portable bench from one of Roy Underhill's books. These are both fully documented on my blog, including video showing the Roubo features. I've also just built a portable work surface with modern T-track work-holding; I use this when teaching a class in a room that has suitable tables.

You can read about these here:

Roubo (in 16 parts, videos at the end) (http://www.closegrain.com/2009/10/my-roubo.html)

Portable Workbench (http://www.closegrain.com/2010/08/portable-workbench.html)

Portable Work Surface (in the middle of the post) (http://www.closegrain.com/2010/11/mastering-craft.html)

Build it as big and beefy as you can. Mass is good for a hand-tool bench, unless portability is a requirement. I'm thinking about making some slip-on feet to raise my Roubo up an inch or so, since my back gets a little sore planing. Also realize that the height is a compromise, since it needs to be lower for comfortable planing, but higher for comfort doing most other things. This can also be dealt with using a variety of add-on mini-benches or vises (I'm thinking primarily Alf's bench-top bench at http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/benchraiser.html and the Moxon double-screw vise at http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Joseph+Moxons+Doublescrew+Vise.aspx).

[Shawn Stennett]

Jim, I love your bench. I really like the idea of a split top, for clamping and for tool storage similar to the post that is currently active. I was looking at Richard Maguires website and like how he uses the center board for a planing stop.

I want to include square dogs but have round holes for hold fasts.

Mark, I will likely include some sort of storage below.

I primarily work on small cabinets and small projects, including a bunch of furniture.

[Shawn Stennett]

Mark, I think I like your style of tail vise, do you like it?

Jeff and Jim- what are your reasons for a leg vice vs something like Vertias's and Lie Nielson's twin screw vise?

Is the sliding deadman used so you can hold a long board vertical?

I curently have a bench I made with a doubled up MDF top with hard board on top. I added a front vise form Lee Valley and added some dog holes. It is a real challenge to hold any long boards.

[Mark Dorman]

Mark, I think I like your style of tail vise, do you like it?


I like them both there the same model (LV 70G01.51) vise just used differantly they have a course enough thread to be fairly quick to run in and out and they hold great. The second shot shows how my #6 can make contact with the handle.

Mark

[Mark Dorman]

Is the sliding deadman used so you can hold a long board vertical?



Horizontal and the rows of holes on the stretcher under the front are for the same thing. Support of longer boards. The workbench book I have has details of a board jack. Not sure if that is what it's called but it is free standing and adjustable for height.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=168259&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1290702992 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=168259&d=1290702992)

Your from Buffalo Texas and I now a Guy named Buffalo from Texas hmm.

[Shawn Stennett]

hmmm indead, you know I have lived in two Buffalo's , New York and Texas. They could not be any more different.

I watched this and I really like it.

http://www.youtube.com/v/awLNuslxud0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3 (http://www.youtube.com/v/awLNuslxud0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3")


I don't know if it will post.

[Shawn Stennett]

I have seen a couple of the mini bench posts and think it is a cool idea for dovetailing, If I had more room in my shop I would like to a stand alone.

[Mark Dorman]

The vice in the video has the nut moving under the bench and the rod being stationary. I think this is good for space saving and the thread is not exposed. My vise when screwed all the way out is maybe 10" past the bench; threads exposed and you have to walk around it. Not a deal breaker but if (when) I build another bench it will be one of the things that change.

[Shawn Stennett]

Yeah I like how it is done.

[Steve Branam]

I watched this and I really like it.

http://www.youtube.com/v/awLNuslxud0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3 (http://www.youtube.com/v/awLNuslxud0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3")


That is a really awesome video! Just a nice display of work process.

And heh-heh, in the list of suggested videos that comes up after it finishes is my Roubo features video. :D

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Jim- what are your reasons for a leg vice vs something like Vertias's and Lie Nielson's twin screw vise?

Is the sliding deadman used so you can hold a long board vertical?



Shawn, whatever vise you choose depends on what you will be doing most. Mark Dorman's shoulder vise is perfect for dovetails where my benchcrafted vise is great for clamping long boards. I don't like the idea of twin screw vises, what happens when you need to clamp a board wider than the screws will allow? My vise is also great for clamping boards vertically for dovetails. Just clamp a board vertically to the right of the screw and move the sliding deadman over if need be. Check out these videos on the leg vise:
Teaser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4kXnhcOtLU&feature=related)
Leg Vise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWe32IDX-Ec&feature=related)

[David Keller NC]

Shawn - I've built about 6 workbenches over the last 15 years or so, and I've owned 2 store-bought ones (honestly, I can't quite remember because I've sold all of them except my current bench). Here are a few lessons that I've learned over the years:

1) Always build your own bench. Though Ulmia & Sjoberg do make well-built benches, they're just not very well designed for the primarily hand-tool user. Chris Schwarz is right about this.

2) Use round dog and holdfast holes. Though square-dog holes have their advantages when used with just dogs, there are too many commercial workholding appliances available that are highly useful and will only fit 3/4" round holes.

3) Vises: I've built and used benches with shoulder vises, twin-screw vises, quick-release vises, tail vises and pattern-maker vises in both the face vise position and the end-vise position. What I found is that I don't like shoulder vises, because I have to lean over too far when dovetailing (I do a lot of dovetailing). Quick-release vises are usable and inexpensive in the end-vise position, and are a better solution in my mind that traditional tail-vise construction. Pattern-maker vises are very nice to have and superior in some ways to other vises, but only if you do a fair amount of chair-building, carving, or other tasks that involve clamping complex shapes. I've not used a wagon vise, nor a leg vise. I doubt I will ever build a bench with a leg vise, because I do a lot of wide carcass dovetailing, and clamping those in a convenient a secure position requires the use of the edge of the leg vise, plus clamps either extending across the benchtop or clamping to the sliding deadman. I much prefer to use a twin-screw that handles 75% of the jobs alone without any additional clamping requirements, and only 25% of the time requires the use of the edge of the vise plus clamping across the benchtop or to the sliding deadman.

4) Tool trays and shelves: I much prefer a bench with no tool tray and no shelves below the bench. The reason for my preference is as you might expect - the tool tray collects dust and shavings, and takes up usable, flat space on the bench. I don't care for shelves below the bench because I frequently use the lower stretchers and the face of the front legs as clamping surfaces. To hold tools that are in-use but not needed at that exact moment, I've a secondary, short carving bench within arm's reach. This arrangement also has the benefit of being safer for the tools - they're a lot less likely to take an unplanned trip to the concrete floor if they're not on the surface where pieces are being worked.

5) Don't attempt to save a few bucks on substandard materials. I learned this lesson the hard way - there is way, way too much work that goes into making a bench, and the bench is in use way, way too much to put up with knots or wild grain in the top (which makes flattening a PITA), legs weakened by using a softer and cheaper species (which tends to loosen tenons over time). Ditto for scavenging lumber - I'd make an exception to this if I found some salvage red-oak, maple, beech or other hardwood species in big sizes (such as 6X6 beams), but trying to remove leftover nails, and straighten, 4-square and glue up a whole bunch of boards that are 3/4" thick is a false economy in my opinion (even if they're free).

Finally - these last two are rules/lessons that came along very recently, and I've only built one bench while they were in effect (my current bench), but they are nonetheless essential:

Buy & read Chris Schwarz's "Workbenches: From Theory and Design to Construction and Use". Spending $25 on this book will save you hundreds (and possibly thousands) of wasted dollars and countless hours of wasted time. His second book on workbenches is also highly, highly recommended.

Don't use sled bases and skirts in designing a bench - this is the rut that Fine Woodworking is stuck in, and it's unacceptable. These types of benches include these design errors over and over and over again, and there's just no need in it. Skirts that overhang the base in particular are not good at all - and I know from personal experience. The revelation that the front face of the leg needs to be in the same plane as the front of the bench was the single most important observation that Chris Schwarz made in the Workbenches book.

[Jon van der Linden]

There are a lot of different approaches posted here, and using your judgement you'll be able to make something that works for you.

Sometimes what works may be surprising. I have a friend who's work has been featured in many magazines and named to "ten most important pieces of the decade" by museum curators. His bench has a cheapo front vise, solid top with no dogs or holdfasts, and for legs he uses the sled type construction derided by David. Would I say he has the ultimate bench? No, but he's not a bench maker, he makes incredibly complex furniture. He uses clamps and other pieces of wood to provide stops on his bench. I should also point out that he made the bench himself from wood on his property (and he has more than one bench, they're all pretty much the same).

Many people think too much about their benches, but not enough about what they'll build on them. While your bench may not end up being "the perfect bench," it won't stop you from making good things.

[Shawn Stennett]

Jon you are correct, but working with a bench that is not up to par can be real frustrating.

Steve, I seen that video after watching the ones you posted, by the way nice bench.

David, thank you for all that you wrote. It all make a lot of since.

The video with the removable vise that slide where the sliding deadman goes was awsome.

I also have to decide what to build it out of.

[David Keller NC]

Sometimes what works may be surprising. I have a friend who's work has been featured in many magazines and named to "ten most important pieces of the decade" by museum curators. His bench has a cheapo front vise, solid top with no dogs or holdfasts, and for legs he uses the sled type construction derided by David. Would I say he has the ultimate bench? No, but he's not a bench maker, he makes incredibly complex furniture. He uses clamps and other pieces of wood to provide stops on his bench.

What I might note here is that the work that someone is capable of putting out is a bit beside the point. Peter Follansbee has proved beyond a doubt that one can put out some really incredible pieces using noting more than a froe, wedges, a few chisels, and a hammer. Equally, Glen Huey puts out some incredible furniture from the colonial period using only power tools, and before he went to PWW, a bench that would be considered inadequate by most of us.

It is absolutely true that one doesn't need much more than long, thick board and a couple of sturdily built saw horses to build incredible things (Toshio Odate and other Japanese Craftsmen work this way).

But - the vast majority of us choose to add design features and accoutrements to our benches well above the minimum required to make nice things because it's convenient, more efficient, or aesthetic, or all three. Learning from those that have put a great deal of time thoughtfully analyzing the purposes, elegancies and mistakes of many bench designs ala Chris Schwarz is smart. Ignoring those lessons simply because one can make a solid-core door on 2 saw horses function with a few clamps? Not so much.

[Jon van der Linden]

David and Shawn, perhaps you're misreading my point. I'm not saying that you should work with tools that are inadequate or frustrating. I'm not saying that you should work without thinking. Quite the opposite.

What I am saying is that what you think is necessary to do something quickly and accurately may not be the case at all. My friend chose the kind of bench he uses because it's effective for the complex work that he does. It may be difficult to comprehend, but his options are limitless and he knows exactly what they are. He's not a "minimum required" kind of guy. I can assure you that if it wasn't fast, effective, and accurate, he would be using something different. Yet he's chosen something far simpler than any of you would choose as a bench.

That it's right for him certainly doesn't mean it's right for you.

[Jim Koepke]

Don't use sled bases and skirts in designing a bench - this is the rut that Fine Woodworking is stuck in, and it's unacceptable. These types of benches include these design errors over and over and over again, and there's just no need in it. Skirts that overhang the base in particular are not good at all - and I know from personal experience. The revelation that the front face of the leg needs to be in the same plane as the front of the bench was the single most important observation that Chris Schwarz made in the Workbenches book.

David,

Could you elaborate on this a bit more?

I do agree with the legs being aligned to the front face of the bench for clamping.

is your reference to a skirt the same as an apron? I find a little bit of a face under the front convenient for holding dogs to support boards or to use to clamp a board to the front of the bench.




That it's right for him certainly doesn't mean it's right for you.

That is one axiom that everyone should take to heart.

Many woodworkers love their shoulder vises. For me, it just doesn't seem it would be the best way. Most likely, my work methods are different than other folks.

And just because I like every size bench plane doesn't mean a person with just 3 bench planes and a block plane is doing something wrong. They may actually be doing more right than me.

jtk

[Randy Bonella]

I made a Roubo 24 x 86, just now starting to use it and love it. Easy to clamp to heavy so it won't roam around the shop when in use. I have a bench build thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=128346 I was going to build something different at first but once I saw this one the simplicity of it appealed to me.

Also depending on the type of work you are doing should dictate where you start also consider what you think you want/need today may change over time.

Randy...

[David Keller NC]

David,

Could you elaborate on this a bit more?

I do agree with the legs being aligned to the front face of the bench for clamping.

is your reference to a skirt the same as an apron? I find a little bit of a face under the front convenient for holding dogs to support boards or to use to clamp a board to the front of the bench.



Yeah, Jim skirt=apron on a bench (at least that's the way I've read it in the various workbench books out there). The simple summary for this is that an apron was incorporated into commercial bench designs in the early part of the 20th century for one specific purpose not really related to the function of the article - to make it cheaper. This was the age when just about every catalog had several benches for sale, such as Meluish (british), Hammacher-Schlemmer, Sears & Roebuck, etc... With an apron incorporated into the design, the top can be made much thinner, and it also means that a seperate face for the front vist to operate on wasn't necessary - the front apron served the same purpose.

What one notices when going back through the 17th, 18th and early 19th bench designs by the authors of their day (Moxon, Ruobo, Nicholson, etc...) is that aprons weren't generally a part of bench designs, for the specific reason that it prevents securely clamping a case to the bench top, and prevents access for clamps from across the underside of the bench.

There is an exception - see the "English" bench design in Chris Schwarz's first book. However, this exception is actually a functional apron in that it is exceptionally wide and takes the place of a sliding deadman. The joinery to make this work is complex - may take on it is that it wasn't cheap enough to manufacture at large sacle, so one doesn't generally see this type of bench for sale in the late 19th, early 20th century tool catalogs.

[Frank Drew]

I'm just echoing what Chris Schwarz will tell you in his book: that the roubo style is the most versatile. The legs are flush with the edge of the table top so you can easily clamp boards (or even a door) on edge easily where on a traditonal cabinetmaker's bench you can not. I've read this before, I think also quoting from Chris Schwarz, and I'm not sure what the thinking is: I built a slightly modified version of Tage Frid's European style bench, with a shoulder vise on the left, and I can clamp securely and without difficulty all kind of boards, panels, doors, etc.. My bench top is thick so I get good support against the clamping pressure of the vise, and a dead man clamped in the tail vise helps support longer material.

So my advise is do not put any kind of storage under the top, aside from maybe a single shelf down low. My experience has been a bit different; I put a five-drawer chest under my bench, riding on the stretchers, and have found it extremely handy, and was glad for the tools inside the drawers when my shop had an issue one time with high humidity and some consequent rust. I haven't found that moving something you're working on to get access to the drawers any more than a minor, and brief, inconvenience.

On design suggestions: I liked not having a tool trough in the top (having worked for a few years on a bench with one); and lining the shoulder and tail vise faces with rough-out leather made a huge improvement in clamping convenience and performance.

[Shawn Stennett]

hanks Frank, I really like th idea of storage under the bench. Also wil remember about the leather. I might have found a decent source for the wood for the bench, thanks David Myers. His is the awsome bench under thread name"My Roubo".

I am becoming more and more of a fan of the Roubo design, I will go with the split top for sure, with tool storage in the filler strip.

Question about the video I posted, it had a secondary vise that droped into where the deadman would normaly go, Do you build the front strecher the same for the deadman and the sliding vise? Could I just build the bench with a deadman and add a sliding vise latter?

Also why does some peoples post show up in the middle of the hread instead of in order? Franks post showed up in the middle ofthe first page.