Cabinet Construction Question

[Jason Yeager]

Hey everyone,

I have recently started a cabinet business, and am interested in producing higher quality custom cabinets with a single face frame (paticularly inset cabs) rather than "modular" cabinets (a bunch of small units screwed together). I like the idea of all the reveals turning out perfectly and I think it would help set me apart from the competition. I am wondering if there are some of you out there that do your cabinets this way and if you would be willing to share your construction methods.

One question would be how you handle long runs of wall or base cabinets.
For example, if you have a 10' long run of base cabinets, are you building a 10' cabinet, or perhaps applying the frame after installing individual boxes? If applying the frames later, what is your system of attachment?(I typically use pocket screws and glue)

A brief overview of the your construction process would be incredible, thanks for your time!!

[frank shic]

not trying to be rude but you should seriously consider apprenticing, going to an established woodworking program or working part-time with a real cabinetmaker before you open shop especially if you're asking basic questions like cabinet construction and during this current economy. have you written out a business plan yet? purchased insurance?

as far as getting perfect reveals, the key is to build the frame as square as possible and then taking your time to trim the door or drawer front to fit. in regards to the 10' long cabinet do you have help installing it? it's going to be pretty heavy! if you're going to install the frame afterwards, pocket screws would work or even pin nailing it through the frame and puttying the holes afterwards.

[Steve Griffin]

Jason your questions are good ones, and not the sign of inexperience as even those who have done this for years would give different answers.

Here's my answers: Inset door cabinets are what I usually do, and I'm famous for making huge 10-14' cabinets which are a pain. BUT, in exchange for the suffering delivering large cabinets, you 1)reduce on-site time 2)have no on-site assembly 3)have cabinets which are less likely to rack and ruin your perfectly fit doors 4)use less materials, as you can often omit partitions.

As far as reveals, make doors/drawers to size of opening, and then cut down on sliding table saw and stationary belt sander to fit using test shims. My reveals are most often .050", but depending on wood species/size of doors can be as small as .040 and as big as .075 .

Heres a warning though--at every job, make certain you never make a cabinet which cannot enter the house! (Or build a tower which can't be stood up in the room..)

-Good luck,
-start small, rent trucks/equipment as long as you can stand it.
- treat your customers well,
-don't waste money on advertising (I've gone 10 years with only 1 month of no work without advertising much),
-don't over insure (life ain't going to be perfectly safe unless you have 67 different insurance policies which use up 80% of your income..)
-don't expect it to be easy in this crappy economy.

-Steve

[Bob Lang]

I'm against ten-foot long cabinets in principle. Way too heavy to move, chances are good you'll end up paying a couple guys to watch you work most of the day so they are available when you need to move the beast. Or you'll hurt your back or get a hernia (I've done both on too-big cabinets)

My approach for this situation is a base platform, several boxes and one face frame. Set the base up level in your shop and fit the face frame to the cabinets with the cabinets setting in place. When you get to the site shim the base platform so it's level and you should be able to duplicate the fit you had in the shop.

I like to leave 1/4" or so between the boxes and have the inside edge of the boxes flush with the inside edges of the face frames. This will make fitting much easier (both at home and in the field). Making the stiles in between cabinets 1 3/4" will let you do this with 3/4" cabinet material. Biscuits will help to line up the box parts to the face frames and you have several options for the final attachment of frame to boxes. A lot of that rides on the type of wood and finish, and whether or not the cabinets will be finished beforehand or on site.

You should be able to assemble the entire run in the shop and fit the doors and drawer fronts too. As I said earlier, a stable base sitting level makes this easily doable without the need for one huge cabinet.

Bob Lang

[Doug Carpenter]

I would opt to build seperate cases and then install one face frame.

I imagine I would handle the install in two phases. Case construction and installation. Then use story sticks afterwards to determine my face frames. Build those with doors and install them as thier own phase.

That way you get the look you want with out having to manhandle giant cabinets putting your self and your customer's walls, floors etc. at risk.

I prefer to use pocket holes for attaching face frames. Trouble is wether or not the hole is acceptable or do you go to the troble of the plugs.

I like Jim tolpin's book and cabinet building. You could apply his theory to this method. Standardize your case construction. Add face frames and side panels where you need them.

good luck.

[Jason Yeager]

Thanks for all the replies.

Frank, I would love to apprentice under a great craftsman, because I really enjoy learning. However, its not that I am wondering how to construct cabinets (lots of ways to do that), I just want to hear peoples methods of creating cabinets without the modular look - figured I might learn something. Never know when a trick or two will make a big difference for the next 10 years.

Steve, Doug, and Bob, thanks for your input, those were the two responses I thought I would get and everyone had their reasons for doing it their way. I am inclined towards the giant cabinet approach as minimizing job site time would be great. Sometimes I site finish my cabinets, which would lend itself towards the individual units with a single face frame applied on site.

Do most of you that build the inset cabinets use an integrated stop, such as edgebanding the a top or bottom of the cabinet and using that as the door stop. Any other elegant ideas?

thanks!

[Steve Griffin]

Hi Jason,
Funny thing is after I posted I went out to the shop and proceeded to work on a 8.5' china hutch which will be delivered in multiple pieces. Because this is a small job, and I don't want to hire help, and I can't use my delivery trailer due to a closed road, I opted to not build so big this time.... two trips with a pickup should do it.

Anyway, it's good to have a standard method of construction, but still be flexible and adapt to each circumstance.

BTW, I make little cherry stops, which are exposed about 1/2" x 1 long", to catch the doors.

-Steve

[Jason Yeager]

Steve,

Actually, that sounds like the right idea, sometimes you might build a big cabinet, sometimes you may do it in pieces. When you build in pieces, are you able to finish your frames in the shop, then attach in the field, or do you finish in place? Sounds like my stops are similar to yours, I make a small piece and glue and pin to the inside of the face frame for door stops.

Bob, the more I thought about it, the more your method makes a lot of sense, especially the part about not wanting to pay a couple guys to stand around a watch for most of a day.

I would be interested in hearing your favorite method for attaching the face frames to the boxes if they are prefinished, and if they will be finished on site.

Thanks for your time!!

[Steve Griffin]

-Never have I even thought about finishing cabinets on site. Sounds horrible. One exception is if they are paint grade, and I have pro painters do it.

-attaching finished faceframes is exactly the same as unfinished. Even if I do a cab. in pieces, I always lay it on it's back in the house and apply faceframe before install. Primary method is pocket screw and glue, but in situations where you can't screw, reach in your bag of tricks and use-- pin nails, 3 way clamps, biscuits, and weights or some combo of the above....

-Heres a tool which has already started saving me labor. You almost always need help to get stuff in the job--sometimes I just hire some quick temp help or use the carpenters. Lowers are no problem, no matter how big if they are sitting near where they go. This lift lets me set the uppers alone too--

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=1524465&postcount=46

-Steve

[Phil Thien]

I'm surprised butted face frames on modular cabinets bothers so many people. It just doesn't look so bad to me.

[frank shic]

jason, just don't want to see this thread turning into another "closing shop" thread in a few months from lack of sound business preparation. if you're doing this just for the fun of it, then please forgive my prior advice but if your family is depending on this for support i'd strongly recommend taking a business class or two before opening shop. anyways, edgebanding the bottom edge of the carcase is a perfectly good way to make a stop for the inset door to close against. i agree that a one piece face frame looks better and gives a truly custom feel to cabinetry. good luck, jason :)

[Jason Yeager]

Thanks Steve and Frank

I appreciate your time and thoughts.

Steve, I have wondered about those cabinet lifts, that is a pretty cool little unit. How large of upper cabinet run have you been able to lift with it? Kind of wondered if it is only good for smaller cabs, or if you are able to hoist a long run of cabs with some supports.

Frank, while I have had my own construction business for about eight years, I am always in the mood for learning, so a business class would probably be beneficial. Cabinets just happen to be a recent addition to the offerings, and thankfully, business has been fantastic. Lots to be thankful for......

However, I do have a question for you, when you use an integrated stop, how much of the bottom panel do you like to leave as a reveal for the stop? If you have only around half the width of the panel to attach to the frame, how do you like to do that?

thanks again!!

[frank shic]

if you're worried about the pocket screws poking out through the bottom, you can either glue or nail the frame on the bottom. here are some other options:

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Door_Stops_for_Cabinets.html