Giving Up on Rough Sawn & Using only S4S?

[Mike Shields]

Got this project I'm working on that the SO has chosen mahogany for it's grain pattern.

Started out rough sawn in 4/4. The project will be 3/4.

As I'm rough cutting the boards, I found quite a bit of irregular cupping.

Even with a 8 inch jointer, this wasn't much fun.

Has anyone given up on buying rough sawn, and thus not needing a jointer and planer, and just using the more expensive S4S?

[Neil Brooks]

Nope.

Almost the reverse.

I'm tired of paying for S2S or S4S that needs surfacing, when I get home. Maybe I don't pick it, check it, and evaluate it carefully enough, but ... what _they_ do to their wood doesn't automatically mean that everything's going to be perfectly fine, and I should just get on with building furniture with what I've bought.

Internal tensions can manifest themselves as the S4S sits in their racking.

And ... when I've had to put the S4S through the surfacers ... I've often wound up with wood that's too thin for the project I'm building [D'OH!].

Returning it ... just becomes a PITA that I'd rather avoid, or ... at the very least ... minimize, as much as possible.

I think my $$$ were well spent on my jointer and my planer.

Using them is NOT -- to me -- an onerous task.

And ... finally ... my results have consistently been better than the results I've received when using the "surfaced" product I've bought from a fairly decent lumber yard, in my town -- for which I've paid a fairly respectable premium.

Nah. Not me :)

[Rusty Eads]

I could probably throw out half of my rough cut material as waste and it would still be cheaper than s4s. My time really isn't worth much either though. Time I have, money I don't so I stick with rough cut whenever I can.

[Lance Norris]

I could probably throw out half of my rough cut material as waste and it would still be cheaper than s4s. My time really isn't worth much either though. Time I have, money I don't so I stick with rough cut whenever I can.

Plus then too I wouldnt have that cool Jointer and Planer. (60% woodworker, 40% tool collector):D

[glenn bradley]

In a word, no.

In more words; the S4S stock available here is no where near true enough to just cut parts from and go to assembly for me. Out of rough lumber I have had the occasional lively board. Most recently one board of mahogany caused me to make 8 parts to get 4 but, that was one board out of about 35 pieces involved in the project.

I have had one or two other 'stress release' boards that were that bad over the years but that is out of hundreds of board feet of various species. I would try another source for your stock or recommend IKEA as opposed to bothering with trying to make something special out of "ready made" standard thickness boards. JMHO.

[Jon van der Linden]

You can't get wood in the thicknesses you really need to make work look good from the lumberyard. Each part requires its own thickness depending on its relationship to the rest of the piece. Using stock thicknesses usually results in a clunky look that is evidence of poor judgement - that doesn't mean that the joints etc. aren't perfect, it just means that it's not good design.

Design is an overriding factor for me. Because of that I will never think of not surfacing wood myself to the thickness that I need. Even S4S may have warps or planer marks which need to be removed. It would be nice if it was magic, but if it's magic you want then you just need bigger machines.

If you ever have a chance, try some of the larger industrial jointers and planers 500mm (width) size. It will be a revelation how easy it is. For making furniture I find the bandsaw and jointer to be the most important.

[Chris Fournier]

Surfaced Four Sides is just that - surfaced four sides. Not very helpful if they aren't square or were surfaced and then sujected to poor storage and handling and what you have is smooth rough lumber or "smooth four sides".

I would quit woodworking in solids if I had to use S4S.

With a jointer and a planer you are the master of your destiny.

With S4S you are a victim.

Careful consideration to how you break out your raw materials will make a HUGE difference to the outcome of your project. Just because you have an 8" jointer doesn't mean that you should be jointing your raw lumber at 8" wide! Look at your cut list and first rip to a bit over finished width of your various components, then go to surfacing on your jointer. try this if you haven't already and it will change your mind about rough lumber.

[Bob Direso]

I would never trade the fun of milling rough sawn lumber for my projects. It provides me with the dimensions I need and it one of the most enjoyable parts of woodworking for me to see a rough board transform into a beautiful piece of wood. It saves considerable cost over time and is simply part of woodworking. Bob.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike

I'm siding with the rest. Buy it rough and mill it to spec'.

You are finding out one thing though, and that is that it is every bit as important to select qulity rough lumber as S4S.
I've seen a lot of "quality" rough cut lumber that was better suited to making shipping pallets

[Don Jarvie]

If you are just squaring the sides then check your jointer setup. If you are getting cupping along the edge then the jointer is out of wack somewhere. One of the beads may be dipping slightly, thus causing the cupping.

Unless the boards are not flat then the planer should be used,but the boards should be sandable if they are s4s.

The setup on my jointer was off and I was getting some cupping and once I adjusted it, it was fine.

[Van Huskey]

I have never had any S4S that didn't need work, so I don't even consider it any more. I would just look for a better supply of rough lumber.

[Steve Griffin]

Once in a great while, if the price is right, I like to use S4S for 5/8" drawer boxes. You still have an 1/8" of an inch to work with to flatten the boards, and save some planing time and sawdust over thicker stock.

It can also price out well for house trim, when flat material is not nearly as important as furniture/cabinets.

-Steve

-Steve

[Roger Bullock]

When I order hardwood, I order S2S skipped planed to 15/16 or 7/8 depending on what I have planned. I usually order 500 to a 1000 BF at a time so I have plenty of stock on hand. The S2S and thickness gives me plenty of material to be milled prior to use as each project gets started. It gives me a straight edge to get started and one flat surface that goes face down when I run it through the planer.
I've seen guys study their cutting list and go purchase just what is needed for that project. They spend a lot of time trying to find the right board of the correct width to cut down on their waste. Always works good in theory but seldom works out in reality. These guys usually end up making another trip to the lumber yard to get enough material to finish their project.

[lowell holmes]

Sometimes I will buy 5/4 rough sawn to insure I can get a flat straight board out of it. It''s sad to have to do it, often it is the only way.

[Leo Graywacz]

Like Roger, I get most of my stock skip planed 1/16" less than rated, so 4/4 is 15/16. This does a coupls of things. They use a planer that will joint the board, a two sided planer. So I get a bunch of stock that is mostly clean on bothe sides that is pretty flat. 2nd, they get to keep a bunch of the chips so I don't have to throw them away myself. And because it is already close to flat usually one pass over the jointer is all I need to get a true face.

Afer you mill it you have a nice flat true board to work with.

If I am making passage doors I will order rough stock. I want to get it as thick as it comes so I can straighten out the stiles. Otherwise, ship planed it is.

[David Weaver]

Also a no for me. The only place surfaced lumber is cheap here is when rockler gets a skid of cherry or something. It NEVER has good color or is wide enough to make it worthwhile. I'm going so far in the other direction (as a hobbyist) that if 8/4 rough is close to the same price as 4/4, I get the 8/4 (rough) and resaw it.

A lot of the intentionally farmed/woodlot wood that's out there that goes into s4s is really junky stuff. Same with the plantation tropicals - which are really the only ones affordable for a hobbyist. When you compare them to the old growth stuff, they look like they're made of half wood and half styrofoam.

[Don Bullock]

Mike, until I bought a jointer and planer I had to use S4S lumber. While it wasn't the "best" way or cheapest, it worked for me. I, however, would never go back to using S4S lumber unless it was exactly what I needed or a board with beautiful grain.

[Lee Schierer]

I guess I'm in the minority and must be very lucky to have a local source of S4S hardwood lumber that sells quality materials. Very rarely do I ever see any reaction wood and I don't recall ever seeing any cupping in the wood I have purchased from my local source. They supply to the local building trade and I can't imagine they would tolerate much cupped lumber.

I don't feel as a hobbyist that I can justify the price of an 8" jointer and heavy duty planer plus the investment in time to do all the milling for the amount of material I use in projects when I can buy good materials all ready to go or get a local mill work shop to do it for me. YMMV.

[Chip Lindley]

Got this project I'm working on that the SO has chosen mahogany for it's grain pattern.

Started out rough sawn in 4/4. The project will be 3/4.

As I'm rough cutting the boards, I found quite a bit of irregular cupping.

Even with a 8 inch jointer, this wasn't much fun.

Has anyone given up on buying rough sawn, and thus not needing a jointer and planer, and just using the more expensive S4S?

"mahogany for it's grain pattern" tells me that you may have chosen some fairly gnarly mahogany, which will tend to overly warp/bow/twist/cup when dried. Most mahogany, except crotch, has predominantly straight grain.

I, for one, enjoy almost more than any other phase of woodworking, milling rough lumber into perfectly straight, usable boards. Some projects require very straight, such as door stiles or table tops. Other parts can stand a bit of bow, which will be drawn flat with fasteners and glue. Some boards plainly will not work for certain parts of a project. The straightest boards go for the longest parts that need to be flat/straight. The worst boards can usually be milled into usable shorter pieces.

Think parts, instead of whole boards when milling! Lay out the pieces you will be needing from a large board and rough cut to width and length. It is much easier (with less waste) to surface shorter pieces than a whole long board.

[Russell Smallwood]

Just my $.02, but it depends on what you're building. S4S is a real time saver for outdoor projects or anything you're going to assemble using metal because you can use a clamp to muscle it into place then screw it down.

That being said, if you're building furniture where you'll be using traditional glue-only joinery, then in my experience the material must be perfectly square in order to avoid compounding irregularities.

I also expect most wood to move a bit when I "unwrap" it by jointing / planing it so I like to keep it in rough form until the last possible moment. Depending on species S4S that looks great the day after it was milled will probably start to warp/cup after a while.

Finally, the thicker the wood is, the less I've noticed its tendency to move and split so again, keeping it rough helps in this regards.

Just observations from the shop, reserve the right to be wrong :)

[David Hostetler]

FWIW, what S4S I can get around here, after it acclimates to my shop instead of the lumber yard, or inside of Woodcraft, or Rockler or whatever, needs to be surfaces again... Cupping and twisting usually. So it is better to just start with rough sawn, let it acclimate to your shop, mill to rough dimension, let it acclimate again, then mill to final dimension...

[scott spencer]

S2S means "sorta straight", S4S means "sorta straight/sorta square", which usually means "not good enough" on either, so keeping the jointer and planer around are a good idea. ;)

[Dave Lehnert]

Like many posted before. I prefer to work with rough stock. Surfaced stock with just a little twist can throw your project out of whack.
Once you work with square stock it's hard to go back.

[Jim Summers]

I would never trade the fun of milling rough sawn lumber for my projects. It provides me with the dimensions I need and it one of the most enjoyable parts of woodworking for me to see a rough board transform into a beautiful piece of wood. It saves considerable cost over time and is simply part of woodworking. Bob.

Same here. I enjoy milling wood as much as building something with it.

[Cary Falk]

I buy most of my stuff S2S at about 15/16" thick. That's about as rough as I can find around here. It is far from flat and square. I used to buy S4S from the BORG. If you have to do any glue ups for large panels, you don't have 3/4" by the time you flatten it. I would never go back. Before, I designed projects by what size of wood I could buy. Now I can make any thickness I want.

[ken gibbs]

I could probably throw out half of my rough cut material as waste and it would still be cheaper than s4s. My time really isn't worth much either though. Time I have, money I don't so I stick with rough cut whenever I can.
Can you let us know what "S4S" lumber is? I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[John Coloccia]

Can you let us know what "S4S" lumber is? I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

(S)urfaced (4) (S)ides

The lumber has been jointed, planed and ripped, giving 4 sides that are square and parallel with each other. It's what you typically find at Home Depot, as opposed to the rough lumber you typically find at a lumber yard.

S2S (surfaced 2 sides) is basically planed on two sides. I usually find it in pretty rough shape, though, and not at all straight. It's nice to have the wood S2S sometimes so you can see the grain pattern.

I buy most of mine as a mixture of rough and S2S...sometimes S1S as my yard will typically run it through a planer with a light cut to show the grain if you ask. I never do, but other people do and sometimes I buy their rejected board I guess. I take it however I can get the species I want, leaning towards rougher the better if I have a choice. I never buy S4S unless it's a small board of exotic wood for my local Woodcraft that I'll be using in small pieces as trim. Even a small piece like that is rarely straight enough off the shelf to make anything with.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Can you let us know what "S4S" lumber is? I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Rough is obviously rought lumber, and is measuredin "quarters".....4/4 is true 1" thick, 6/4 is 1.5" thick, etc.

"S4S" is "surfaced 4 sides"....lumber that's been cut and planed on all 4 sides. This is the normal "1-by" (or 2-by) lumber, such that a 1x4 is actually only 3/4" thick.

"S2S" is "surfaced 2 sides" - usually top and bottom, with rough edges.

"Skip planed" is where the sides are lightly planed, in places - which can be helpful to show the underlying grain patterns.

[jmike montgomery]

I'm another minority voter, as I typically only used S4S for my projects. Most of what I do is shelving and cabinets, as I haven't had the time to get into the more advanced stuff. When I've needed something oversized, like especially thick wood for a counter edge on a project I did recently, I go to a local lumberyard that does it's own milling and have them custom mill the part. It's expensive, but I don't have the equipment I need to do all the milling myself and what I enjoy is the designing and assembly work.

[Russell Smallwood]

Rough is obviously rought lumber, and is measuredin "quarters".....4/4 is true 1" thick, 6/4 is 1.5" thick, etc.

"S4S" is "surfaced 4 sides"....lumber that's been cut and planed on all 4 sides. This is the normal "1-by" (or 2-by) lumber, such that a 1x4 is actually only 3/4" thick.

"S2S" is "surfaced 2 sides" - usually top and bottom, with rough edges.

"Skip planed" is where the sides are lightly planed, in places - which can be helpful to show the underlying grain patterns.

I guess for future reference in case anyone reads this thread there is usually an additional option for a straight-line rip on one side which basically means the lumber yard ran the board through their straight-line rip saw and you end up with one (albeit rather rough) "straight" edge which, if you're doing rough work is probably good enough to reference your tablesaw fence.

[Dave Houseal]

You can't get wood in the thicknesses you really need to make work look good from the lumberyard. Each part requires its own thickness depending on its relationship to the rest of the piece. Using stock thicknesses usually results in a clunky look that is evidence of poor judgement - that doesn't mean that the joints etc. aren't perfect, it just means that it's not good design.


I agree a lot of things just simply look ridiculous in 3/4" lumber. For instance any drawer, or just this weekend I made a small nick knack shelf. It's only 10" long and 4" deep. I planed my rough lumber to 1/2". It would have looked silly in 3/4" think lumber.

[Mike Shields]

I guess I'm in the minority and must be very lucky to have a local source of S4S hardwood lumber that sells quality materials.

There is a hardwood store in Denver that carries all surfaced types. A while back I asked the warehouse guy about their S4S, and he told me it's sold to mostly contractors (cabinet makers). They don't have the time to work with the rough sawn. The expensive cost of the S4S over the rough sawn is just passed on to the customer. Must be alot of money in Denver.

I bought about 200 bf of S4S select walnut from CL. This was left over from a $50,000 walnut interior job. This has been the best wood I've ever had the pleasure to work with, as it has been 100% stable. Maybe that spoiled me!

Many interesting views regarding this. Thanks!