Advice on 2x4 Shop Plans

[Ryan Dyer]

Hi Guys,

I just bought a house and am planning on creating a small shop using these plans (http://www.plansnow.com/dn3095.html).

The plans use 2x4s for all the framing cut down to various sizes. What has me confused is that the main posts that hold everything up are 3-3/8", last time i checked a 2x4 is 3-1/2". The plans dont state how they got to that size. Are they running it through a jointer to make sure there is a flat side before running the board through the TS to cut the angles? See pic attached.

http://i52.tinypic.com/15dax5s.jpg

I have a Ridgid 2410LS table saw and a router. Also an old RAS that i inherited.

[David Thompson 27577]

..................What has me confused is that the main posts that hold everything up are .................


It's impossible to tell from your pic, the purpose of that many-angled piece. But I suspect that the reason it's dimensioned at 3-3/8 is to allow for just a bit of off-cut.

It might be done that way to assure that the rounded edges of the construction lumber are eliminated completely.

[Ryan Dyer]

It's impossible to tell from your pic, the purpose of that many-angled piece. But I suspect that the reason it's dimensioned at 3-3/8 is to allow for just a bit of off-cut.

It might be done that way to assure that the rounded edges of the construction lumber are eliminated completely.

That is the profile shot of the 4 tower posts that hold up the shelves (part F), i have added another pic to help make it more clear.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2lmb6va.gif

[Bill Davis]

Hmmm. Looks right out of Woodsmith or Shopnotes. I built some from those plans.

[Rick Moyer]

Man, I thought you were going for the world's smallest shop! (2X4).

Looked at your pic more closely. if the grain runs as suggested maybe it to allow fasteners to secure better. See how the grain is oriented? (i.e., glue together and then cut like pictured?) I didn't click on the link so maybe the 2x4's are NOT really sandwiched like that.

[Robert Reece]

In order to make these cuts reasonably accurately, you are going to need to pick out a straight 2x4. Then take that 2x4 and run it through your tablesaw to make the four 45 cuts. Then you'll likely have 3 3/8", depending on how straight your 2x4 is. It would help if you had a jointer to true the 2x4 first, but you didn't list that so I'd just make sure you choose the straightest 2x4 you can find.
Also make sure you assemble the shelves the same day you cut those 2x4 because 2x4s are high moisture content so they will start moving all around on you. This also means that if you buy the 2x4 today (and it's straight) you should cut it and assemble it today too. I have bought many 2x4s that aren't straight 2 hours later. Sometimes I'll buy them and let them sit for a couple of weeks. Anything straight after sitting in my shop for a couple of weeks is likely going to stay straight.

[Don Dorn]

I agree with Robert - find flat 2x4s, lay it flat on the TS, set the blade to 45 and run it through so it cuts 5/16" from the end. Flip it around and go through again and short 45s are done. Flip the board over, mark the center and mark a scotsh more than a 1/2" and make the marks on the end grain so you can see it and line it up before turning on the saw. Rasie your blade and set the fence to cut along just outside one of the marks - flip it around and run through again. Should have your piece then. Obviously needs to be cleaned up.

As Robert said, I wouldn't get the lumber until ready to go and assemble, because a perfectly straight piece won't be that way long after it sits very long. Anyway, my .02. Good luck, looking forward to hearing how you come out.

[Robert Reece]

Another thought-

Wider lumber is sometimes better than the 2x4s I see. So you might consider getting 2x8 or 2x10 or 2x12 and making these parts out of that stuff. You'll have to do a little math to figure out how many finish parts you could get from each board and which size works out best. Keep in mind you don't have to rip square at 3 1/2" first, you can make the 45 cut first and then your offcut will have the 45 already in it.

[Erik France]

I don't know how many posts you are going to need, but picking out a bunch of straight 2x4s might not be easy. You might consider ripping some larger 2x material. When I did my bench build I used 2x12s and 2x10s. I was having a really tough time finding any really straight 2x material that was smaller. You could also cut two faces at once if you rip them with a bevel cut. Looks like you can get 3 out of a 2x10. If you make them a little bit smaller you can get 4 out of a 2x12.

*edit- hehe, looks like Robert was thinking the same thing. ;)

[Ryan Dyer]

Hmmm. Looks right out of Woodsmith or Shopnotes. I built some from those plans.

Thats exactly where its from :) I purchased the plans from them and also got a shop notes subscription. I made some saw horses that were in their magazine a couple months ago the other day as my first project.


In order to make these cuts reasonably accurately, you are going to need to pick out a straight 2x4. Then take that 2x4 and run it through your tablesaw to make the four 45 cuts. Then you'll likely have 3 3/8", depending on how straight your 2x4 is. It would help if you had a jointer to true the 2x4 first, but you didn't list that so I'd just make sure you choose the straightest 2x4 you can find.
Also make sure you assemble the shelves the same day you cut those 2x4 because 2x4s are high moisture content so they will start moving all around on you. This also means that if you buy the 2x4 today (and it's straight) you should cut it and assemble it today too. I have bought many 2x4s that aren't straight 2 hours later. Sometimes I'll buy them and let them sit for a couple of weeks. Anything straight after sitting in my shop for a couple of weeks is likely going to stay straight.

Well, i read to let the wood sit for a while in your shop, so i went to Lowes the other day and spent about 2 hours picking through there 2x4 pile. Sign said Hemlock Fir, but all the boards were stamped with D-Fir. From my research online, there actually Kiln Dried Douglas Fir. I was able to find boards with nice fairly straight grain with very few knots. I have about 20 or so boards sitting in my garage right now. I dont think it will take long for them to dry out since i live in phoenix. I think last time it rained was like 45 days ago.

I don't own a jointer, however that is one of the reasons i created this thread. I am seriously considering getting one if it will make the project turn out much better. I am really anal about stuff turning out right. Of course budget is a problem, im only 28, just got married and bought a house so im sure wife is going to kill me if i show up with a jointer now :)


Another thought-

Wider lumber is sometimes better than the 2x4s I see. So you might consider getting 2x8 or 2x10 or 2x12 and making these parts out of that stuff. You'll have to do a little math to figure out how many finish parts you could get from each board and which size works out best. Keep in mind you don't have to rip square at 3 1/2" first, you can make the 45 cut first and then your offcut will have the 45 already in it.

I was considering doing that as well. I did that with my saw horses i just built. I bought Douglas Fir Green (HD an Lowes only has Green in those larger sizes, and i dont have a lumber yard near me). I cut them all to size and got pneumonia, so the project sat about a month. Surprisingly only 1 of the boards i cut really cupped, and only a little bit during that period. However when i went to look for wood to build my shop, the 2x4's i found deep in the pile where way nicer wood then the 2x6-12.



I did a test cut to see how the tower would turn out and my board is still 3.5" wide. So i am assuming the plan creator ran the board through a jointer, then set the TS to 3-3/8" and trimmed the other side?

[Steve Peterson]

It doesn't look like the 3 3/8" dimension is very critical. It should still work if the final size ends up being anywhere between 3 1/4" and 3 1/2".

I would add some advice to buy kiln dried 2x4s if you are buying them from the big box stores. They are much less likely to bleed sap and the cost is only about 10 cents higher. If they are not available, then you may have better luck finding straight clear wood in larger sizes (2x8, 2x10, or 2x12) like others are suggesting.

Steve

[Dave MacArthur]

Ryan,
I notice you just joined and this was your first post, WELCOME! SMC is a great place with a ton of good advice.

I agree with Steve above that the dimensions are not critical--look at your picture, the 3 3/8" face is outside with nothing attached to it. Even it's opposite face of 1 1/16 is not critical, since you're just going to notch a corner of the shelf to accomodate it anyways. In fact, the only critical dimension on that post is the unlabeled faces that the side rails attach to... and even THEY are not critical! So long as you make the side rail inside faces flush with the inside corner of the post face, it doesn't really matter what the width of the rails (and face they attach to) is. Just rip up the corners, measure what that face is, and make your rail width match it.

This is in the realm of when plans are a guide--real world lumber you buy, what it ends up when you dimension it, thickness of your TS kerf, etc. might all come into play, but you can tell from the plan that it just doesn't matter--nothing in the entire plan MUST be of a particular dimension for it all to fit together, because the outside edges of everything are 'open', that is, nothing attaches to it , they could stick out an extra 2" for design aesthetics if you wanted.

This reminds me of when I was building a vertical sheet storage tower out of 2x4s here in Phoenix a long time ago, I was picking out the boards and thinking, "Oh hey, these ones are much heavier, I'll get them for better strength and stability!". Of course the 2x4s were heavier because they were full of water... I built the thing, and the next morning when I walked out, it was so twisted you couldn't have put a sheet of paper into it without touching the walls... had to rip it apart and burn the evidence...

[Don Alexander]

unless you just have to follow the plan exactly for some unknoiwn reason why go through all the nonsense of ripping 2x anything on an angle?

2x lumber is never ever straight and would make ripping the piece you show a serious pain in the neck not to mention hazardous and its completely unnecessary to do this in order to make nice fixtures as shown

heres a suggestion , use 3/4 plywood of a good grade Baltic Birch or something comparable and save yourself a lot of time and grief it really won't cost much more and it will be alot more fun to use with better end results too

[Ryan Dyer]

unless you just have to follow the plan exactly for some unknoiwn reason why go through all the nonsense of ripping 2x anything on an angle?

2x lumber is never ever straight and would make ripping the piece you show a serious pain in the neck not to mention hazardous and its completely unnecessary to do this in order to make nice fixtures as shown

heres a suggestion , use 3/4 plywood of a good grade Baltic Birch or something comparable and save yourself a lot of time and grief it really won't cost much more and it will be alot more fun to use with better end results too

Are you suggesting i use 3/4" ply and sandwich it together to make 1.5" and use it instead of 2x4? or skip the plans entirely?

[Dave MacArthur]

Probably intending you skip the plans entirely for that complicated leg, and make a 90 degree 2-board corner for each leg. They're very strong and stable, plenty for the shelf your plans show.

I mean, think about it--honestly, the only reason to put 45 degree cuts on a shop shelf is because of some misguided attempt at including style to the thing. It's not as strong or as stiff as a square cross section, you've just wasted away a large portion of the member. Doesn't make any difference for glue and screw strength, to speak of. The only conceivable reason to do that is if you start with a 2x10 and slice multiple sticks out of it, and even then you don't get more than squares would give. If I was looking to use shop furniture to practice various techniques (a common and very useful thing), I sure wouldn't put any time in on ripping 45 degrees on warped and reactionary 2x material. I'd rather practice pocket screws, and maybe some mortises, in this case I'd laminate 3 strips of plywood together for the legs and leave gaps in the center strip to provide mortises.

Sorry to pound on your plan, man! If you build it I'm sure it will look nice, but IMO shop furniture is not the place to add complication, wastage, and reduced strength.

(added pic of my PM66 extension table support legs, 2 strips of ply at 90 degrees with some trussing. Extremely stable and strong, and super light weight. For shelving and support, think LIGHT, think bridges)

[Ray Newman]

"I mean, think about it--honestly, the only reason to put 45 degree cuts on a shop shelf is because of some misguided attempt at including style to the thing." (Italics added RCN)
--Dave MacArthur

I think you have it right....

[Don Dorn]

"I mean, think about it--honestly, the only reason to put 45 degree cuts on a shop shelf is because of some misguided attempt at including style to the thing." (Italics added RCN)
--Dave MacArthur

I think you have it right....

Just difference of opinion - I think he should do it to plan so he can practice a skill. While I'm not a stickler for plans to the end, I think that shop furniture allows practice without major risk. If he doesn't, he may always look at it and be reminded that he chose not to take the chance. At least that is how I'd look at it but realize there are different personalities.

As an example, all the drawers in my shop have hand cut dovetails. It wasn't for any other reason than for me to practice when I was learning the skill. They aren't perfect by any means, but every time I see them, I'm glad I went for it and know that they helped me eventually get on top of the skill.

[Ryan Dyer]

I appreciate all your guys thoughts and advice!


Probably intending you skip the plans entirely for that complicated leg, and make a 90 degree 2-board corner for each leg. They're very strong and stable, plenty for the shelf your plans show.

I mean, think about it--honestly, the only reason to put 45 degree cuts on a shop shelf is because of some misguided attempt at including style to the thing. It's not as strong or as stiff as a square cross section, you've just wasted away a large portion of the member. Doesn't make any difference for glue and screw strength, to speak of. The only conceivable reason to do that is if you start with a 2x10 and slice multiple sticks out of it, and even then you don't get more than squares would give. If I was looking to use shop furniture to practice various techniques (a common and very useful thing), I sure wouldn't put any time in on ripping 45 degrees on warped and reactionary 2x material. I'd rather practice pocket screws, and maybe some mortises, in this case I'd laminate 3 strips of plywood together for the legs and leave gaps in the center strip to provide mortises.

Sorry to pound on your plan, man! If you build it I'm sure it will look nice, but IMO shop furniture is not the place to add complication, wastage, and reduced strength.

(added pic of my PM66 extension table support legs, 2 strips of ply at 90 degrees with some trussing. Extremely stable and strong, and super light weight. For shelving and support, think LIGHT, think bridges)

I didnt make the plan :) hehe, i just purchased it. I wish i could post the whole plans but im sure since i had to pay for it (it was cheap) its copyrighted and i could get in trouble for posting it. But if you watch the video on the original post, it pretty much explains everything.

I wish i could work with strictly MDF or plywood. I enjoy that much better then 2x4s. However, with that said, i really like the way these plans look and work. The plans are very flexible since everything is built from the same components and concepts. Even the workbench and cart is same idea. They all look uniform which is important to me since i want my "man cave" to look nice. It also uses cheap materials, so if i do mess up that 2x4, which i know i'll mess up at least 4 since it takes me 4 tries to do anything, im only out $2.05 a try :) Anyway, thats the run down on why i choose those plans.

Let me ask you this, assuming i stick with these plans, would it be worthwhile to invest in a jointer to straighten up the edge of my 2x4 prior to ripping? Cause i will have to rip quite a few.


Just difference of opinion - I think he should do it to plan so he can practice a skill. While I'm not a stickler for plans to the end, I think that shop furniture allows practice without major risk. If he doesn't, he may always look at it and be reminded that he chose not to take the chance. At least that is how I'd look at it but realize there are different personalities.

As an example, all the drawers in my shop have hand cut dovetails. It wasn't for any other reason than for me to practice when I was learning the skill. They aren't perfect by any means, but every time I see them, I'm glad I went for it and know that they helped me eventually get on top of the skill.

This is exactly why i haven't redesigned the posts to just use a 2x4 with nothing ripped out of it. Its a challenge. I have learned a ton just from trying to figure out the best way to rip these 2x4's.

[Dave MacArthur]

If I was looking to use shop furniture to practice various techniques (a common and very useful thing), I sure wouldn't put any time in on ripping 45 degrees on warped and reactionary 2x material. I'd rather practice pocket screws, and maybe some mortises

I'm right there with you on practicing techniques on shop furniture, as I said above. But when I saw you had questions on this about dimensions and how it could be achieved and if it was important, I just wanted to point out that it wasn't really too important... I'm just saying, don't let being overly concerned with that angle and the dimensions around it stop you from getting started hey? And of course, as Ron says above (who doesn't really have a different opinion as it turns out ;) ), practicing dovetails is a great use of shop furniture time. Also, you're right, it's a nice unified look if doing the whole shop.

Jointer-- yes, you need a jointer. Ripping 2x material is one of the more risky cuts, in that they are generally warped or curved (causes pinching/kickback), they tend to move after being cut more than other boards (pinching/kickback). I think it's quite important when ripping 2x material to have a good flat edge to start, and a splitter or riving knife--DON'T do it on a saw with the splitter removed.

Good luck!

[Ryan Dyer]

I'm right there with you on practicing techniques on shop furniture, as I said above. But when I saw you had questions on this about dimensions and how it could be achieved and if it was important, I just wanted to point out that it wasn't really too important... I'm just saying, don't let being overly concerned with that angle and the dimensions around it stop you from getting started hey? And of course, as Ron says above (who doesn't really have a different opinion as it turns out ;) ), practicing dovetails is a great use of shop furniture time. Also, you're right, it's a nice unified look if doing the whole shop.

Jointer-- yes, you need a jointer. Ripping 2x material is one of the more risky cuts, in that they are generally warped or curved (causes pinching/kickback), they tend to move after being cut more than other boards (pinching/kickback). I think it's quite important when ripping 2x material to have a good flat edge to start, and a splitter or riving knife--DON'T do it on a saw with the splitter removed.

Good luck!

Yeah, i am glad you brought that up about it not having to be exact because after you mentioned it i started looking at it and your right. A large carriage bolt draws the posts into the shelf framework on each shelf, worse thing that would happen is my post wont be exactly flush with the shelf frame. Not a big deal. It wont effect its function one bit.

Hopefully i can start in the next few weeks. I got the 2x4's "seasoning" in my garage and a table saw safety kit from rockler on its way. Going to order the hardware i need next. Also going to look for a jointer now :D

[Zac Vasilinda]

I think I'll try these plans out too. Thanks for posting here and passing along the ideas! I'm going to see if I can do it with just the eurekazone track saw table / powerbench table and accessories. We'll see.

[Ryan Dyer]

So i picked up a Ridgid Jointer and got it mounted on a mobile base. I have run into a bit of another snag though...in the plans its calls for some 1" x 5 1/2" x 96" lumber. Now the plans say all lumber is construction lumber, mdf and plywood which can be easily found. Well i looked all over the place in lowes and HD and can't find any true 1" thick boards. The plans don't mean 3/4" wood either, they mean literally 1" thick. So, i realize i can rip a 2x4 to give me that, but before i started ripping, is 1" thick d-fir available somewhere?

[Erik France]

Not in available Construction grade lumber that I know of.

What parts is it for? I've got the Shopnotes #97 in front of me to see if using a 3/4" thickness would make an impact. I don't redily see where a piece that size goes.

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm with Dave, to paraphrase Tage Frid "congratulations, you've discovered the most complicated way to make shop storage units".

I also would go with stips of plywood glued together to make angle iron shapes for the uprights.

Must be some reason why Dexion is so popular:D

Regards, Rod.

P.S. About the only thing I use dimensional lumber for is construction, the stuff around here is just crap.

[Ryan Dyer]

Not in available Construction grade lumber that I know of.

What parts is it for? I've got the Shopnotes #97 in front of me to see if using a 3/4" thickness would make an impact. I don't redily see where a piece that size goes.

Its for all the corner pieces. The little triangle shaped pieces. It makes a difference because after you drill a 1/2" hole in 3/4" thick wood for the carriage bolts, your not left with much meat on each side :)

[Erik France]

OK, I see it now.

Wow, I think 1/2" carriage bolts are a bit much. I'd go with 5/16" or 1/4" bolts and use a 1x6 for the corner blocks. Unless you're loading those shelves with gold bricks four 1/4" bolts would handle plenty.

[Ryan Dyer]

Yeah...lil late now...i already ordered 100 of them :)

[Ryan Dyer]

I'm with Dave, to paraphrase Tage Frid "congratulations, you've discovered the most complicated way to make shop storage units".

I also would go with stips of plywood glued together to make angle iron shapes for the uprights.

Must be some reason why Dexion is so popular:D

Regards, Rod.

P.S. About the only thing I use dimensional lumber for is construction, the stuff around here is just crap.

Doesn't anyone around here enjoy a challenge? :)

I considered doing angle pieces, its a lot easier. Thing is, i also have to spend time designing a bunch of stuff. Which i am trying to avoid.
I really liked these plans as they look nice, its easy to customize, did i mention they look really nice? I also am a newb and lack experience. So i liked the fact that the plans held my hand and the design is obviously proven. I can then use the same techniques to customize it. For instance, if you look at the link in my OP, Where the miter saw is, im going to put my RAS there, and build out another bench to the right so i have a huge in/out feed setup for it.
I realize i could just redesign the posts to use angle plywood, but i wanted to follow the plans and i think the angled 2x4 looks nicer.

[Erik France]

Hehe, I figured that would be the case. :D

You could take an 1/4" off each face of a 2x6 on your jointer to get there. You'd get some good practice on face jointing in the process.(and a big pile of chips) Might be a good enough of an excuse to get a thickness planer. ;)

[Rod Sheridan]

That was good Ryan, yes I like a challenge, sometimes too much for my own good:D.

The problem with dimensional lumber is that it's never dry or straight, so it's a frustrating material to work with.

That's why plywood has been mentioned a couple of times.

I did once buy rough 2 X4 material from the saw mill I deal with and they were great.

I was able to joint and plane them into nice material.

Let your dimensional lumber acclimate to your shop for a few weeks before you begin doing anything, or stick it together immediately in the hopes that it won't twist like a pretzel. I'm still voting that it will twist, your shelves don't have any method of constraining movement.

regards, Rod.

[Ryan Dyer]

Got all the pieces cut and partially assembled for the first shelf. It looks really good. Do you guys normally put some type of finish on your shop furniture?

I read somewhere else that shellac was a good one. I have used Minwax polycrylic in the past for a project i did like 8 years ago. Turned out really well but i had to spray it on, otherwise it looked like crap. Its held up extremely well though, it was a on a huge desk i built that i use every day for about 8 hours a day. It also survived a busted pipe in the ceiling for a whole weekend with water pouring on it like Niagara falls. I took the desk apart and took it out to dry and it was completely fine. I couldn't believe it. So i know thats some tuff stuff, but i was hoping for something easier if i am going to do it.

[Joe Angrisani]

Hey Ryan...

I like a rub on oil or oil-varnish finish. To me it's the easiest, and while it doesn't offer the protection of some of the "thicker" choices, I don't really mind a ding or mark on shop stuff. And it's also easy to wipe on a new coat down the road.

[Steve Schoene]

It should be labeled 5/4. At least that's what you should ask for. In today's lumber yard 5/4 lumber is dressed to 1". It's more likely available in pine but that depends on where you are.

But Lowes and HD, collectively the borg, are horrible places to buy lumber. Find a real lumberyard. Phoenix is a large enough city that it will have several. You will be surprised that you pay very little more for superior materials. You usually go to a counter to place an order. You can ask questions, usually the counter people know more than anyone you will find at the borg. They give you a pull sheet, you drive into the yard and someone pulls the lumber for you. You can certainly say things like--that one is too curved or I don't want ones with the pith. You load up, and then there is usually a person at the exit who checks the invoice as you leave. It's really easy and the guys are usually friendly an helpful to DIY customers. That wasn't always the case, but the lumberyards with an attitude have gone out of business by and large. The only problem is you can't go on Sunday, or late in the day.