Angled mortise or tenon?

[John Coloccia]

I need to make some angled mortise and tenon joints. Should the mortise or the tenon be angled? My gut tells me it's better to angle the mortise but I don't know. I'm looking for a mortiser and wondering if I should spend the extra $$$ to buy one that can do angled mortises. Or maybe the solution is to angle the workpiece one the mortiser?

Any help is most appreciated.

[Jim Rimmer]

I would vote for the angled mortise. Seems like an angled tenon would be weak. I would also consider an angle jig rather than a tilting mortise but I don't know why. :confused:

[Ryan Baker]

The answer depends on the situation, but in general I would say to angle the mortise. I wouldn't spend the extra on a mortiser that can do angles unless that is something you will do often. I think it works better to angle the piece when putting it in the mortiser using some simple angled wedges. I've done that a bunch of times and it works just fine.

[John Coloccia]

You guys are confirming what my gut was telling me. I think I'll just go for the straight mortiser and I'll just make a little wedge for the angle as you suggest. Boy it's going to be nice compared to chopping them by hand. I've nothing against hand tool work but the novelty is starting to wear off. LOL.

[Stephen Cherry]

Are you thinking about chairs?

I think, and I have read that the tenons should be strait, and the tenons angled.

I think that you are right, wedges are the repeatable way to go. Even if you could angle the machine, how would you set it up exactly the same in a repeatable way, and from left to right? Wedges will be consistant. Plus, some of the mortisers only tilt one way.

One thing I would suggest is to have a bevel gauge for each angle on your project- not to be changed until you are done. That way you can mark your boards, set your machines, make your jigs, etc. in a consistant way.

Also, if you are making chippendale type chairs, where you have a trapazoidal seat, and legs that angle outward from the floor, it is a little more difficult.

[John Coloccia]

I think, and I have read that the tenons should be strait, and the tenons angled.

Well, that settles it.

:)

[Rick Moyer]

Well, that settles it.

:)
Too Funny!:D

[Gary Pennington]

Built Norm's English Garden Bench last year. There are about a dozen vertical backrest slats with angled mortises in the bottom rail. Norm cut them with a drill press mortising attachment and angled wedges under the work piece. I followed suit --worked like a charm.

Gary

[lowell holmes]

At Homestead Heritage (Elm Mott, Texas), we made the tenons angled in the chair classes. The mortices and tenons are done by hand there.

Frank Klausz shows straight tenons and angled mortices in his video. His are done with routers and hand tools.

[Stephen Cherry]

Well, that settles it.

:)


OOPS! Strait tenons, angled holes!:D

There was an article in FWW a while back, I think called "compound angle joinery", and the author favored angled tenons. Someone from the Winterther Museum wrote in and insisted that the tenons be strait.

Which reminds me of something I saw on TV one time. It was a crusty onl BBQ master, he said there were two types of people in the world, people who put their sauce on after the meat cooks, and people who put the sauce on while the meat is cooking. He then said that he didn't talk much to people who put the sauce on while the meats cooking.

Anyway, if you are considering an angled chisel mortiser, I would think about one with an x-y sliding table where the workpiece clamps down. This keeps the shims from shifting around. I have a powermatic 719, which is an OK mortiser with an x-y table, and I just upgraded to a big bridgewood mortiser. They work just about the same, but the big machine has a much better clamp (the powermatics clamp is acceptable, not great), and a little more leverage.

[John Coloccia]

OOPS! Strait tenons, angled holes!:D

There was an article in FWW a while back, I think called "compound angle joinery", and the author favored angled tenons. Someone from the Winterther Museum wrote in and insisted that the tenons be strait.

Which reminds me of something I saw on TV one time. It was a crusty onl BBQ master, he said there were two types of people in the world, people who put their sauce on after the meat cooks, and people who put the sauce on while the meat is cooking. He then said that he didn't talk much to people who put the sauce on while the meats cooking.

Anyway, if you are considering an angled chisel mortiser, I would think about one with an x-y sliding table where the workpiece clamps down. This keeps the shims from shifting around. I have a powermatic 719, which is an OK mortiser with an x-y table, and I just upgraded to a big bridgewood mortiser. They work just about the same, but the big machine has a much better clamp (the powermatics clamp is acceptable, not great), and a little more leverage.

I'm actually thinking of a PM701, which will be my very first Powermatic tool. I was looking at the General mortiser, but the PM just seems like a really solid tool with some good features. I don't do enough of this to justify a larger machine and yet another piece of equipment I need to find room for in my shop.

My feeling with the angled tenons is that
a) it seems like you're moving in the wrong direction re: grain orientation
b) depending on the angle and size, you may need to use a smaller tenon to stay within the dimensions of the board.

It just felt strange.

Thanks again for all the advice, guys.

[Matt Winterowd]

FWIW, I got the General mortiser not because it angles, but because of the superior clamping and depth stop features. I had a Steel City mortiser, and I just really don't like the roller style work holders. The bonus is being able to do angles.

[Stephen Cherry]

FWIW, I got the General mortiser not because it angles, but because of the superior clamping and depth stop features. I had a Steel City mortiser, and I just really don't like the roller style work holders. The bonus is being able to do angles.


I agree, clamping is very important- you do not want to replace the wedges with each plung.

[Chris Fournier]

Floating tenons will give you the ultimate in design/build freedom. I personally use a slot mortiser on my jointer/planer and make fixtures for the angled joinery. Very tidy and proven process in my shop.

[Mike Henderson]

On chairs, I angle the tenon and make the mortise straight. The front of a chair is wider than the rear but not by so much that the tenon is really cross grain.

I use a tenon jig to cut the angled tenon. Use some scrap of the right size and make a test piece before you cut the real piece.

Mike

[John Coloccia]

re: what I'm making

It's for furniture work, and actually they're for a chair, but it's not the M&T work most are probably thinking of, i.e. it's not for the curved back slats or anything like that. My back slats will be angled tenons because I think it's stronger like that...no force trying to pull the M&T joint apart.

I thought about it long and hard and ended up grabbing the General after all. It just seems like a really solid machine and I decided I didn't want to have to make wedges for my tenons. I know it's a small thing, but I have so much else to worry about I figured this would be one less thing to fiddle with.

Again, thanks all for your input.

[pat warner]

Can do & do both (modify the tenon or mortice). My fixturing allows a little more latitude in the joint design, (for me).
I can also simplify some of the stuff whence the connections are compound (http://patwarner.com/images/info_special_chair.jpg). Easier to wedge a rail sometimes rather than a leg.

[Stephen Cherry]

re: what I'm making

I know it's a small thing, but I have so much else to worry about I figured this would be one less thing to fiddle with.

Again, thanks all for your input.

For a trapazoidal seat, you may still need the wedges. The machines that I have seen only tilt left to right, not front to back. It's quick and easy though, just rip an angled notch out of a 4x4, and save the cutout to clamp with.

[ian maybury]

You're not a man that hangs around John, and this comes a bit late.

My experience is minimal, but in doing a bit of preliminary looking at options for doing angled mortices I couldn't help thinking that a European style horizontal morticer like the Felder FD 250 had some definite advantages. It's easy in one plane, but the bit I couldn't figure out was how best to angle the second plane if this was needed as well.

What is attractive is the very clean and easy cutting you seemingly get with a good quality cutter. There's something a bit crude and mechanically unsatisfactory about hollow chisel type morticers...

ian

[Stephen Cherry]

What is attractive is the very clean and easy cutting you seemingly get with a good quality cutter. There's something a bit crude and mechanically unsatisfactory about hollow chisel type morticers...

ian

Yes, hollow chisel mortisers rely on some brute force, but they are not less crude than a mortising chisel and hammer.

Also, sometimes for an attempt at a reproduction, you need a square hole.

[John Coloccia]

You're not a man that hangs around John, and this comes a bit late.

My experience is minimal, but in doing a bit of preliminary looking at options for doing angled mortices I couldn't help thinking that a European style horizontal morticer like the Felder FD 250 had some definite advantages. It's easy in one plane, but the bit I couldn't figure out was how best to angle the second plane if this was needed as well.

What is attractive is the very clean and easy cutting you seemingly get with a good quality cutter. There's something a bit crude and mechanically unsatisfactory about hollow chisel type morticers...

ian

Oh, the Felder is way out of my price range. I'm just doing a very small amount of work. The way I did mortises at one point was entirely by hand with an old pig sticker mortise chisel. I lost them in a move many years ago and had a hard time finding more that I liked, so I started just using a drill, and then chopping the mortise square. This actually works well for me, but I'm tired of chopping :)

FWIW, you can now get high quality pig stickers again:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=MS-MORT.XX
I'm thinking of picking some up for old times sake. Maybe I'll put a 1/4" and 3/8" on my Christmas list :D

For a compound angled mortise, I can easily make them on my drill press. I have one of the Delta's with the "woodworking" table that allows you to make that sort of compound angle. Honestly, I can't remember ever doing that, but if it ever came up, that's how I'd probably do it. Drill at the correct angle and then chop by hand.

You can sorta make them on the General too, if the angle's not too large. The General can tilt and swivel, so by swivelling and tilting the appropriate amount, you can do some limited compound angles. You can also swivel completely off the base and make some fixturing for a compound angle if you wish. At this point, though, unless I'm doing production work, I can probably have them drilled and chopped more quickly than I can build a fixture.

Boy, Felder makes some nice equipment though, don't they? I spent a total of nearly $5000 for my SawStop and Jet JJP-12 jointer/planer. I've spent countless more dollars on sleds, gauges, fixtures etc, and I still don't have a shaper. If I had it to do all over again, I would simply pick up one of their combo machines. It would have cost more, but not a ridiculous amount more, I could have had a shaper, and I could have had a Felder/Hammer. I believe they also have a mortising attachment.

If I'm ever so lucky some day in the future that I can justify a real shop and a real upgrade for better equipment, I'll be ringing Felder.

And no, you're right. I don't tend to perseverate over decisions very long. Life's too short, and there's always the SMC classifieds to help fix tactical errors :)