Hanging plane cabinet

[larry ciccolo]

Going to be building a plane cabinet and am concerned about attaching it to the wall.
My wall is 3/4 plywood screwed to 2x4....which are "TapConned" into the cellar cement walls.
Since plane cabinets are heavy when full, I am wondering if a french cleat secured through the plywood into the 2x4 will support it.
Does a french cleat work well since the weight is spread across it?
Thanks
Larry

[Chris Vandiver]

I would think that a "french cleat", if installed correctly, would be more than adequate. By the way, you could double cleat the cabinet(top and bottom)for extra holding power, if you thought you needed it.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

+1 on the french cleat. if you're concerned about extra holding power, make sure the cleat attached to the wall is secured directly to at least 2 studs.

[george wilson]

Any danger of moisture from the wall rusting your planes over time? I had a basement workshop in the 60's with moisture trouble.

[Sean Hughto]

A french cleats will work fine. If it is a huge cabinet, you can use more than one I suppose.

This one of mine hangs from a french cleat.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/3256578957_10049bc58c_z.jpg?zz=1

[larry ciccolo]

Thankfully moisture is not a probem

[larry ciccolo]

Do french cleats work so well because the weight is not concentrated in one area such as a screw?
Thanks
Larry

[Pedro Reyes]

Larry, ultimately the force is transfered through the screws used to attach the cleat to the wall. So it is again concentrated on however many screws you use to attach the cleat to the wall, what the cleat does to some extent is divide the load amongst all screws fairly equally.

Another virtue, and let me see if I can explain this, is that the cleat uses the screw more on its axis, rather than shearing it. The cleat wedges itself thus trying to some extent to pull the screw out of the wall, not just loading it vertically (as in a wire from a picture).

Imagine you screw a 2" screw into wood only 1" in. It is easier for you to push the screw on its side to dislodge it, than it is for you to take it straight out (on its axis). The french cleat pulls the screw on its axis to some extent.

peace

/p

[larry ciccolo]

I sure wish I had found this forum sooner
You guys are awesome....there is a wealth of knowledge here !
Thanks so much

[Jim Koepke]

Larry,

Welcome to the Creek and glad you found us.

There is a video of the Studley tool box that is held on two cleats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9QaFTI2F9c

They say it takes 3 strong men to lift that box. I guess most of the weight is on the left side since it swings open while held up by cleats.

There is more information on the tool box and some pictures to down load here:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/PlansAndProjects/PlansAndProjectsArticle.aspx?id=27038

Here is my shelves being held up by cleats.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=152035

These shelves are tall enough that the base also rests on the concrete ledge from the foundation around my shop. I gave them a hanging weight test and they could hold me without giving me worries.

jtk

Yesterday is history, tomorrow a mystery. Today is a gift, that is why it is called the present.
- Oogway (Kung Fu Panda)

[Russell Sansom]

The weight doesn't actually hang on the screws. The screws drive the cleat against the wall and the "friction" keeps the cleat from shearing off. If you pulled outward on the cleat, the screws might fracture or pull out of the stud, but the outward force is actually pretty small.

[Jamie Schmitz]

Add some contact adhesive to the cleat if it still seems like not enough holding power.

[Pedro Reyes]

The weight doesn't actually hang on the screws. The screws drive the cleat against the wall and the "friction" keeps the cleat from shearing off. If you pulled outward on the cleat, the screws might fracture or pull out of the stud, but the outward force is actually pretty small.

Russell, I think he got an answer. So no need to continue this. But I am confused by your statements. If the outward force is pretty small, then friction is also pretty small. So yes the weight is mostly hanging on the screws. By shearing I meant shear stress, not shearing a material (e.g. the cleat). And trust me a screw will fracture on shear stress well before it does on normal stress (on its axis).

/p

[Niels Cosman]

I used a single 5/4 maple cleat with a 30 deg bevel to hang my plane till and it works like a champ. I wouldn't venture to guess how much it weighs fully loaded- a lot.

I would be most concerned about how the cleat is attached to both the case and to the wall. The back of the tillis made from 3/4 ply and I added a maple reinforcement to the inside of the back so the screws had something hard to bite into (i don't trust plywood). I would definitely aim to screw the mating cleat to at least two studs in the wall. Also I would recommend some high quality fasteners (i used #10 highpoint screws). Like Pedro said screws are strongest in compressive force not shearing, high torque screws+strong fastening material= strong connection. add some adhesive in the mix and you're rock solid.

ps. one of the most useful tools in my shop, my electric lifter. Studley's chest may take 2-3 guys to lift. Mine takes only one finger :)

[Trevor Walsh]

Sean, I really like this cabinet. Can we get a better look inside? and what are those (well shop-made appearing) tools on top? Threaders? Rounders? Beaders? I must know.

[Pedro Reyes]

This smaller guy is also on a cleat, screwed on two studs. The cleat is nothing more than a 3/4" hardwood piece which was ripped at an angle and then gang-planed to that angle. Behind the slanted surface (it is hinged at the top to open and reveal that space) are a #7 and some other smaller stuff, works well.

At some point it'll have drawers, before I die, promise.

peace

/p

http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/pars73/planesmall1.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

ps. one of the most useful tools in my shop, my electric lifter. Studley's chest may take 2-3 guys to lift. Mine takes only one finger

Take the tools out and it is pretty easy to lift.

By the way, I think my 1/4" by 4" screws were 20¢ each. Two in each stud seems to work well as long as your cleat is big enough to accommodate that many.

jtk

[Leigh Betsch]

One word of caution on the Fench cleat business. I have one fail, picked a cabinet full of screws off the floor in the morning. I used pine for the cabinet side of the cleat. The wood split. I now screw my cabinets to the wall. Use as many screws as you think you need.
Seems to me that the benefit of the cleat system is the ability to move the cabinet easily but I don't see an advantage in strength over screwing the cabinet directly to the studs.

[Gary Curtis]

Niels, where does a guy find one of those electric lifters? And what is the typical weight capacity?

Gary Curtis
Los Angeles

[Niels Cosman]

Hey Jim,
1/4"x4" screws will definitely do the trick. I used 3/8 or 1/2 (forget which) carriage bolts to attach wall cleat the pallet rack uprights. Also haven't, nor would I attempt to, lift the shelf fully loaded. At least until I get around to building a door. Which would also be an awesome place for some saws and/or layout tools.

On the topic of additions down the road, I am also contemplating adding a gun-safe heater into the void behind the inclined surface. I had originally thought of adding storage space there, but didn't like the thought of swinging all those planes up and down. Instead, I made the rack slide in and out on a little tray with two stops. This way I could could have the planes at an angle that was ideal for picking up quickly with one hand, and then push back the shelf to close the door. Also this means i have more flexibility to have deeper storage in the door without about interference with the plane blades and lateral adjusters. (the 4 1/2 with a 55 HAF sticks out wicked far)

Curtis,
I acquired the lift after I borrowed it from a friend to lift a 225+ pound concrete stool around my studio. That's the most weight i've ever attempted to lift. His father was a distributor for the swedish company (http://www.electriclift.eu/) that made it and had a newer model (this one is about 20 years old). I asked me if I wanted it for 150 bucks (roughly the cost of the batteries it runs on) and I jumped on it . It makes moving equipment, table tops, lumber, benches, etc a snap and saves my back and bad shoulder. I think they aren't cheap to buy new ($1000-2000)

[Paul Saffold]

No one has commented on the use of the Tapcons to anchor the 2x4s in the original post. Is this a good method for heavier items such as the plane till? I'm going to be putting up shelves & wood strips to hang things from in my garage which has block walls on 2 sides. Thanks. Paul

[Niels Cosman]

I dont see any problem with using tapcons, as long as they were installed properly. As I understand it, the 2x4 studs are anchored to the concrete and the wall is 3/4" ply screwed to the studs. That means what ever torque there is from the suspended till contributing to pull out would be distributed over many anchors.

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Trevor. I was making a larger project and needed a vehicle to practice a couple things on, so I made this sort of on the fly. Funny how that sort of thing can free you up to both enjoy the work and sometimes yield a decent piece that while imperfect has its own charms. Anyway, here is the inside. The things on top are to shave tapered tenons in making chairs. I didn't make them. Elia Bizzarri, an accomplished chair maker, made them for me.

[David Laaneorg]

The force on the studs will be almost directly down. If this were a free standing interior wall made with 2x4s, it will still hold. The Tapcons are more than enough. As to the screws, i can't remember the exact numbers, but I read a report on the relative strength of screws. In a direct pull situation (like pulling a nail), they held somwhere in the neighbourhood of 600-800lbs (for a #8 screw). But in a shear situation one #8 screw could hold something like 1200lbs. Assuming that you attach the cleat to two studs, one screw each, the cleat will then hold 2400lbs in a shear situation. The pine cleat failed because pine will split easily, putting the screw through the middle of the cleat, plus I'm assuming you've added a countersunk hole for the screw to fit into, the head of the screw then acting like a splitting wedge. Either hardwood or plywood would be the best choice for a cleat, I prefer plywood. Add two screws per stud to a taller cleat, then you have 4800lbs. of holding power, enough for a car.

One option is to hang the cabinet, then screw through the back of the cabinet and cabinet-side cleat to the stud as well, then you have four screws and the cleat distrubuting the weight.

Again, my math may be wonky, my memory certainly is, take this with a good sized Canadian road salt truck load of salt.

[Trevor Walsh]

Thank you Sean, Nice kit in there. Is that a purpleheart gunstock scraper on the bottom shelf there?

[Sean Hughto]

It is a Woodjoy scraper and purple heart. It's not the gunstock variant.

[Benjamin Heuer]

I sure wish I had found this forum sooner
You guys are awesome....there is a wealth of knowledge here !
Thanks so much

I agree. Great place to hang out!