Rough Cut North Bennet School episode, wrong technique?

[Van Huskey]

Watched the Rough Cut where T-Mac visited the North Bennet school and he and one of his old instructors built a table. Let may say I am the LAST person that should ever question either of these guys techniques as they build superior furniture and have forgotten more about woodworking then I ...


Here is my "deal". They resawed a piece of figured maple to book match the top. The guy from North Bennet (forgot his name and not at home to check) "precut" the 10-12" piece with the table saw (blade fully up I suppose, they didn't show it) on both sides and resawed the remaining ~6" left in the middle the TS couldn't reach by cutting down the center of the saw kerfs on the band saw. I have seen this technique used BUT in the case of book matching the large waste from the TS kerf and cleanup left the book match quite far off. The grain just doesn't come close to matching up. You are never going to get a perfect bookmatch since there is always waste but I try to minamize waste as much as possible, they seem to do just the opposite. I know the technique can be used to compensate for a low powered saw, lack of fence, dull blade and/or too thin of a blade but T-Mac's Woodcraft outfitted shop shouldn't have to deal with any of these. Plus you also have to deal with leveling the board since it now has a huge step in the middle left by the much thinner kerf of the bandsaw blade compared to the table saw blade.

Did this bother anyone else that saw it or would it bother anyone that didn't see the episode to have a bookmatch offset by more than .125" in waste?

[Josiah Bartlett]

Depending on how well the band saw is set up, you can get that much waste after having to flatten a poorly executed resaw on the bandsaw, but in general I think you are right. Depending on the wood species and grain direction of the plane of resaw, the grain book match might not be too bad, but its probably better if done with a thin kerf bandsaw blade and a well- set up saw.

[John Coloccia]

I've also seen people do this, and it seems strange to me. There's lots of clever ways out there of turning a simple job into a complex job, and this strikes me as one of them. My choice would be to simply go little slower on the bandsaw. I agree that if you're going to book match, having a thin kerf is usually a good thing, especially on any sort of figured wood. Curly maple, for example, can become very mismatched with just a little bit of sanding. That's not to say it will look awful. It still looks nice and it still looks book matched, but it's SPECTACULAR when you can get a fiddleback figure to line up closely.

[Peter Quinn]

My opinion? This is a complete and total nit pick. The kerf of a carbide Resaw blade is .041-.060" depending on maker. The kerf of a thin kerf rip blade is .932" or something close? So the TS takes out around .25" per side of additional material, but eliminates considerable amount of effort. Yes, one man with a large heavy hard board can do this in minutes, then split it on the BS freehand with no particular set up. I didn't see that book match moving way out of alignment personally. But whenever you split anything for a book match it's a crap shoot. You can easily get more waste than that over that width in bow and twist. I guess I don' have any problem with this technique nor it's results. If I were going to slice veneer for book matched panels for doors or such I would avoid this, but to split 10/4 for a table top I see no shame in it.

pS. For some weird reason IME the TS kerfs keep the thing flatter than using just the BS, not sure why? Something about releasing the tension in stages was explained to me, not sure I buy that or not, but it does seem to help.

[glenn bradley]

I wonder if there is a list of techniques to be shown during a season and this was just a way to work this particular option in? I would have done the resaw on the bandsaw but, there is always more than one way to skin the cat. At least it wasn't another horrible example of professionals demonstrating an unsafe technique.

[Andrew Gibson]

I dont have a band saw and have used a table saw to get me 3 1/2" TO 4 " through either side of a board then finish the cut with a hand saw. clean up is pretty easy with a well sharpened hand plane.

I didn't see the episode, but the episode I did see mooved a little quick for me...

[george wilson]

I hav very accurately resawn CUBAN mahogany 12" thick into a VERY accurate 1/16" veneer with a 1 h.p. old 20" Delta bandsaw,with a 6 tpi,1/4" wide blade,believe it or not. The blade was brand new. If you have never cut real Cuban mahogany,it is extremely hard,about like rosewood,and does not float.

I would not waste .125" of maple by pre-sawing on a table saw unless a decent bandsaw blade just wasn't available. It WILL mess up the book matching.

If you know how to use a bandsaw,really good work can be done on it,provided,of course,it is a good bandsaw.

[Thomas Bennett]

and am going to do some this afternoon. I use a 12 " Freud thin kerf. I mainly use a Paloni that can cut well above 4 inches in height. If that doesn't cut it, I do go to the bandsaw and finish the cut. I usually have my bandsaw set up to cut circles for turning blanks. I suppose you could lose some of the bookmatching pattern. I don't find it to be a problem. I'm mainly using curly soft maple. For me, resawing on the table saw is just quicker.

[Jim Rimmer]

I wouldn't resaw on the TS. As for those who say it is faster and easier, I can't dispute your statements but I find them hard to fathom. A good BS, sharp blades, properly set up is fast, easy, and safer (IMHO) than having a TS blade exposed at max height.

[Matt Winterowd]

I would argue that there are only two categories of techniques that are "wrong" in all of woodworking - those that are inherently unsafe, and those that won't produce the result that you want for your work.

This would apply to lots of other areas of life too. I was thinking about this the other day watching a Rob Cosman video. It struck me that Frank Klausz's head would pop off if he watched Cosman taking a single cut with a plane, stop, remove the shaving, reset, another stroke. But they're both remarkable craftsman that know how to get the results they are looking for.

[John Coloccia]

I would argue that there are only two categories of techniques that are "wrong" in all of woodworking - those that are inherently unsafe, and those that won't produce the result that you want for your work.

Well shoot....I wouldn't say that their technique is "wrong". I think the OP was just wondering out loud why they choose to do that when you can get a superior result using only the bandsaw. I guess it's arguable that one gives a better result than the other, but I've book matched enough figured woods to know in my own mind that everything I can do to minimize touching the visible book matched surface is a good thing. I'm even conscious of it during my glue ups, always putting the outside surface face down so any small difference in thickness will come off the back of the board. It's just a detail that most people wouldn't bother to do, and even less people would ever notice, but little things like that bug me because I know it could have been just a touch better for practically no extra work, and it was just not thinking it through that didn't catch that detail.

I guess what's great about SMC is that there are thousands of people thinking through all of the details, and flappin' our gums about the details that are important to them. Then I read through all the threads and can pick and choose which details are important to me. It's like picking the brains of all the greatest woodworkers, but without having to serve them coffee and muffins. :D

[Peter Quinn]

Ok, I'm sitting here rewinding the DVR repeatedly, watching the segment in question. They are splitting a piece of heavy 8/4 hard maple, that is curly and verging on burly, with lots of little eyes and inclusions. Its got everything going on at once. And the book match is nearly perfect. Seriously, the difference between a thin kerf rip blade (mine is .092) and a heavy but not carbide resaw blade (mine is .032") is .060". That is 1/16" guys. Divide that by TWO, thats the amount that winds up on each side of the BS blades kerf, that is the extra distance your book match is traveling using the TS to assist in resaw. Do you really believe that makes a difference on a table top? These guys are splitting a piece at least 9" wide, and only kerfing the first two or so inches. This is not a crazy idea. Maybe its a New England thing? Chances are you will be loosing far more than a kerf just to reflatten the stuff after stickering.

I hear what George is saying about sawing extinct species into veneers. You would be more than a fool to run a 200% waste factor on rare and valuable wood, and clearly a good BS with a decent blade can resaw wide stock. But with almost every solid stock book match I have seen, simply sliding the pieces between 1/4" and 1" will correct the match as it moves due to kerf waste. Last week I had to resaw a piece of 8/4 soft maple at work, 10' long, 10" wide, all alone. The BS at work is crap, it has no fence beside the crude resaw fence I made, and the board I had to resaw was not exactly flat anyway. So I kerf it 2 1/2" on each side using a tall fece on the TS, then push it through the BS freehand, I think using a 1/4" 6TPI blade that has been in use for months cutting curves, scraps, brad nails, MDF, plywood, who knows what else. 7 guys working it hard. And still, the resaw goes quick and flawless, the TS kerfs force the BS blade to stay on track, and the book match is decent. Sometimes time is more precious than 1/16" of lumber.

If I were slicing guitar sets from priceless tone woods, or making veneer from extinct species I would personally not employ the TS resaw kerf technique. And I personally really dislike using the TS to cut all the way through a piece of stock for resaw. But for thick solid stock being split for book match, this trick works and well.

[Thomas Bennett]

I stated above I use the TS frequently to resaw with great results. I was cutting some poplar today and measured the cut on my TS to be 4".
I do agree with Jim Rimmer's comment above that a fully extended TS blade can be very dangerous. Don't try it unless you know the risks.

[Dan O'Sullivan]

I would lean toward the bandsaw if you have one. I think you get better results without the extra step and the extra clean up. I use a good resaw blade and the tablesaw step seems to create a little more work.

Its not wrong especially if that's all you have to reach your goal.

If you haven't done much resaw work, this is a great skill to develop. It allows you to do some nice stuff.

Photos: bandsawn veneer appox 1/16 plus. Note this is some finicky stuff.. crotch walnut. If you can tune up to cut veneer- you can split a board right down the center.

The veneer is from a 5/4 board cut for 4 drawer fronts on the desk drawer fronts.

With a good blade you can slice right thru some hard stuff. Like George Wilson mention- he uses an old Delta 20" to make his cuts. I use a 1959 Delta 20" BS and she's still gettin' it.

My 2 cents
dan

[Van Huskey]

And the book match is nearly perfect.

The first thought that came to mind is may need a bigger TV or one capable of higher resolution, maybe it is your signals bandwidth...

These two guys make better furniture than I will ever be able to, period. I am just at a loss as to why they would reduce the quality of their bookmatch using an extra step no less. The only thing I can come up with is the 14" Rikon and the blades they had on hand were not up to the job.

I am not at home to cue it up but the maple has very thin grain lines and they were significantly offset made more apparent by those thin lines. Some grain patterns allow for an excellent bookmatch even with extra waste like this, but I don't think that piece did.

I suppose there is never a wrong way to accomplish a task as long as the end result is the best one person can do. In this case I think they could have gotten OBJECTIVELY better results using the definition of bookmatch (given the reality we live with it can never be perfect) by just going straight to the BS. I just don't see the point given a capable saw and blade, because both men are certainly capable of doing it exclusively on the BS.

BTW I used the wrong in the title to be slightly provacative in order to lure folks in.

As for it being a picked nit, I agree 100%, though I would suggest that nits are more important that we often give the credit for. In the end if either of them were here they could probably say "I did it for this reason" and explain it and it would probably make perfect sense. In fact T-Mac may have explained it, he talks fater than I can hear...:D

[Matt Winterowd]

BTW I used the wrong in the title to be slightly provacative in order to lure folks in.

As for it being a picked nit, I agree 100%, though I would suggest that nits are more important that we often give the credit for. In the end if either of them were here they could probably say "I did it for this reason" and explain it and it would probably make perfect sense. In fact T-Mac may have explained it, he talks fater than I can hear...:D

I apologize if I came across as taking you to task, Van. I was mostly just trying to throw in my perspective too. I have to admit that I have had a little bee in my bonnet lately about the tendency of discussions to get stuck on the concept of "which is best" instead of "how do you do this and why?" To that degree, your title probably worked on me. ;)

[Prashun Patel]

I've watched the few episodes and the pattern I notice is that he always puts in some kind of nifty trick that's a new way to skin a cat.

This might be one of those times.

What I really find nifty is the way he keeps saying "Ok, Guys, Check it out. Ok Guys? Guys. Guys. Guys."

There's a drinking game in there somewhere...

[David Weaver]

What I really find nifty is the way he keeps saying "Ok, Guys, Check it out. Ok Guys? Guys. Guys. Guys."


I haven't seen the show, but in text, it looks a lot like Randy Jackson without the "dog".

[Peter Quinn]

The first thought that came to mind is may need a bigger TV or one capable of higher resolution, maybe it is your signals bandwidth...

D

I'm watching on a Philips 48" 1080P on AT&T u-verse network, and in Hi def as far as I know. I've stopped it, zoomed in, stared at it looking for the flaws in that glue up, not seeing it. I even had my Wheaton Terrier watch it with me, and she claims she can't see it either. If you stare at that burly part long enough I swear you can see Elvis in caricature.:D Or maybe Nahm?

[Van Huskey]

I'm watching on a Philips 48" 1080P on AT&T u-verse network, and in Hi def as far as I know. I've stopped it, zoomed in, stared at it looking for the flaws in that glue up, not seeing it. I even had my Wheaton Terrier watch it with me, and she claims she can't see it either. If you stare at that burly part long enough I swear you can see Elvis in caricature.:D Or maybe Nahm?

As I suspected... too small! :D Again since I am not at home now I can't go back and reference it. All I can say is the bookmatch was farther off than I would like, especially with that grain, when the figure runs one direction big kerfs are no big deal but when you have figure that converges like a chevron the bigger kerf really displaces it, much more narrow on one side than the other. All in all, I just wish I knew WHY they did it since I don't see it as a hard cut with the right equipment. Plus, if I saw it in person I might think it looks great, in the end TV, though getting closer, isn't perfect.

Funny when I first read "Nahm" I read it as Noam Chomsky instead of Norm, LOL. Noam's liver spots can be seen in a lot of wood if one is looking!

[John Baum]

Can someone point me to a discussion of the risks associated with a fully extended TS blade? I've been using a TS for about 40 years, not as a professional woodworker by any means, and nobody has ever explained the risks mentioned below in in Jim Rimmer's comment.

I've learned some things 'the hard way' and have an impressive scar at the base of my right thumb from a 'too small' piece of wood that kicked back and caught me squarely in the hand.

I'd like to keep my 70-year-old hands intact until the whole of me is 'called to account.'

Thanks,

John

Thanks,


I stated above I use the TS frequently to resaw with great results. I was cutting some poplar today and measured the cut on my TS to be 4".
I do agree with Jim Rimmer's comment above that a fully extended TS blade can be very dangerous. Don't try it unless you know the risks.

[Dave MacArthur]

I've read that a high blade on thinner boards (not buried mostly) carries more kickback risk due to the rear teeth approaching the board in a more vertical direction, and the blade being "engaged" in the wood much farther back from the cut leading-edge. This results in the blade being way more in-play for any reaction wood or kerf-closing, and when that happens it raises the wood off the table vs. pushing it against your "push hand", this vertical rise is not as strongly countered (without board buddies etc.), the top teeth then catch and WHAM kickback.

Also, people pass their hands back and forth above the blade and near it, both hands tend to be past the blade upon cut finish for many workers, who then pull them back towards the body. With the blade 2-3" above where it "normally is" and exposed, this greatly increases the hand/blade risk as hands are retracted. (Assuming no bladeguard, which is a good assumption for a LOT of folks and maybe a high percentage of those who are running their blades erroneously and unnecessarily high).

Oh yeah, sorry--back to your regularly scheduled debate! I'm thinking he just threw in a technique to show it; or he didn't read Van's "Bandsaw Blades and You" thread, and had a poor blade on he saw.

[Peter Quinn]

I've read that a high blade on thinner boards (not buried mostly) carries more kickback risk due to the rear teeth approaching the board in a more vertical direction, and the blade being "engaged" in the wood much farther back from the cut leading-edge. This results in the blade being way more in-play for any reaction wood or kerf-closing, and when that happens it raises the wood off the table vs. pushing it against your "push hand", this vertical rise is not as strongly countered (without board buddies etc.), the top teeth then catch and WHAM kickback.

Also, people pass their hands back and forth above the blade and near it, both hands tend to be past the blade upon cut finish for many workers, who then pull them back towards the body. With the blade 2-3" above where it "normally is" and exposed, this greatly increases the hand/blade risk as hands are retracted. (Assuming no bladeguard, which is a good assumption for a LOT of folks and maybe a high percentage of those who are running their blades erroneously and unnecessarily high).

Oh yeah, sorry--back to your regularly scheduled debate! I'm thinking he just threw in a technique to show it; or he didn't read Van's "Bandsaw Blades and You" thread, and had a poor blade on he saw.

I guess all that is true, but you left out the TALL FENCE part and the DONT DO THIS ON SMALL PARTS part. I use a tall fence fixture that slips over the bies fence, and has 6" on one side, 8" on the other. Its as solid as a rock, made from 8/4 material, screwed and glued with dados...well you get the idea, big fence fixture. So your hands are at least 4" away from the blade (assuming blade is raised 2"), because the tall fence forces your hands to ride on it. The material is not inclined to tip with this fence, and IME tension wood is not a serious issue as you are taking out less than 1/3 of the woods width in a pass, so you are not releasing a lot of tension. And this is not a trick to play with small parts. Anything much less than 6"-8" and I'm not bothering with this technique anyway. T-mac has a TALL FENCE on the saw stop featured in his shop on the show.

So to reiterate, not a great technique for slicing precious veneers, not good for small parts, requires a tall fence fixture for safety (they didn't really mention that on the show but they did use one?), sure makes whacking a thick slab in half easier on most BS under 24".

PS...Has anyone ever seen what happens when you resaw 14" of tension wood in half on a BS with a tall resaw fence, like a case hardened piece of 8/4 maple for instance, and it pops, bowing the blade as it pushes against the fence? This is not a cute situation and can certainly break a blade or wreck one at least. With the kerf technique the wood is not trapped against a fence. When slicing veneer the typical 1/16" sheets being sawn will not have enough strength to harm a blade, so totally different situation than splitting solid stock.

[Dave MacArthur]

Can someone point me to a discussion of the risks associated with a fully extended TS blade? I was just responding to this question in general, and not actually relating my answer to anything whatsoever with this double-rip resaw method, just answering a mid-thread question ;)

[John Baum]

Dave,

Thank you for confirming that I was not missing something more subtle. I've always tried to keep the blade down so that only the teeth and their gullets are showing above the stock. Well, there have been a few times when I've been known to make a short cut into the end of a piece of stock where I wanted the blade moving as vertically as possible, say, to create a notch an inch or so deep.

I've also become paranoid about keeping the blade all the way down when the saw is not in use. A not quite retracted blade can send an errant scrap of wood flying across the room if the saw is started unintentionally.

John

[Peter Quinn]

Funny when I first read "Nahm" I read it as Noam Chomsky instead of Norm, LOL. Noam's liver spots can be seen in a lot of wood if one is looking!


Wow, Noam Chomsky is honestly one of the last people I had expected to be mentioned on the creek, That would move us quickly into the way way way way WAY off topic forum!:D Though I suppose Noam and the "Gnarly maple slab" do share a certain anarchical bent? I was thinking of the other 'Nahm' from Boston, but if you see Noam in the burl I won't argue with that!:D