Complete my Shapton setup

[Matt Radtke]

I recently picked up a Shapton Pro/Traditional/Whatever You Want To Call It #12,000.

My current setup has become grinder -> soft ark. -> hard black ark. -> Pro 12000.

The improvement I've gotten with the 12000 tells me I should swap out my Arkansas for Shaptons (and to save the 12000), but the edge I'm currently getting tells me I don't need to panic and incrimental replacement will be fine. As an added bonus, I won't need to swap back and forth between water and oil when I'm all done.

So I've got a somewhat weird question: Working back from the 12000, which grits would you pick up? I have no problem mixing in HR glass stones and I'm leaning this way due to cost. Probably the 6k and 1k or 2k. Or is the 8k higher on the grit scale than the Black Arkansas and I should add in the 8k and the 1k/4k are the replacements?

I wouldn't mind ending up with several stones, say 1k, 4k, 6k, 8k, for example, but I need to do it in a sane, workable fashion. And I can use what I've got in the meantime.

I'm cheap and have a 1 year old, so purchases need to be carefully thought out, which brings me to the final note. Assuming you needed to replace your shaptons, where would you buy them? I've not found any special deals on the 'bay and most vendors seem to match up direct from HMS prices.

[David Weaver]

Shapton pros cut deep grooves, they are very aggressive compared to oil stones. I wouldn't do the 4k and 6k thing, you'll be wasting your time.

I would go 1k (perhaps 1500) 5K and 12/15 (as you stated, you got the 12, it's probably the same thing even though shapton says the overseas binder causes crazing in the US).

I would pay the extra for the pro stones, find some stable wood that can take on water (I used kingwood that I got with a coupon, but something much cheaper could be used), and epoxy the stone to a base and stick rubber feet on it (the little cabinet bumpers that are solid rubber and not foam work fine). I have seen multiple discussions of people claiming their shaptons move when they dry (apologies if this is confusing since they are stones that do not need to be soaked). Mine do not move at all epoxied to the kingwood bits.

I have found the same thing with oil stones and shaptons. Oil stones cut flatter shallower grooves, and they will not cut carbides that well, plus if you do get one worn and cutting fine, if you decide to refresh the surface for level, you've lost all of your efforts in getting the stone that way. They are nice to use, especially when sharpening carving tools or something that could scuff the surface of a ceramic stone, but on a flat plane iron or chisel, the fastest sharpening regimen I've had is to keep the sharpened bevels small (by grinding when needed, maybe every third of fourth full hone) and use a 1k and 15k shapton. It gives you a line-free waxy cut off of any tool. Is it necessary? Not usually. Is it nice to have when it's just as quick as less sharp, anyway? Definitely.

At any rate, I would just add the 1000 and 5000.

oh...one other advantage I forgot about with the oil stones. If you have the time and means to flatten old ones, you can get a set of stones cheaply at flea markets and yard sales. Like maybe $50 for a whole set of good stones if you don't mind they'll be 2" wide, less than that if you're really patient.

Where would I buy them? Craftsman studio, I guess, if I bought into the crazing argument - I have one that was from japan (5k), and no crazing. One from the US (15k), no crazing. If I didn't, either from ebay or schtoo, the price is likely to be similar. Depends on your wish for timing if the origin matters, I guess, since our government has wonked up receiving air shipments over a pound.

I did just order a 1k pro from c-studio yesterday since I had a jones for a design-related DVD and it put me over the top for free shipping to combine the two. I have an orhpan 1k glasstone now, but I could just never get the glasstone to cut my muji iron the way I wanted, don't know if a pro stone will solve that, but we'll see.

[Andrew Hughes]

I would get the 2k pro stone.I have the 1k pro and dont use it as often as the green one.It cuts a little faster then the green stone but not much.I also have the 5 and 8 k.The 8 is a little softer then the 5.My 8k is wearing quicker than the purple 5k.But its okay its flattens quicker.The cream colored 12k pro i use has broken in half and is about a quarter inch thick.Worth every penny.Its the one i still use the most.Hope this helps

[John Coloccia]

Personally, I'd dump all the oil stones, get a DMT blue/red plate (coarse/fine) a 6000k Shapton and a strop if you really want to use that 12k stone. The 12K is sort of an oddball size IMHO. I would go from a grinder to the DMT fine, to an 8000K shapton and on to a strop if I felt like just dumping the 12K stone. That's just my opinion and what happens to work for me. I personally have a 16000K shapton but I really feel like it's superfluous since I'm stropping anyway. Of course I'd only go to the grinder once in a blue moon, so normally I would just be using the 8K and the strop to hone the edge.

Anyhow, this really is just my opinion. There's a billion different ways to get to a sharp edge. My methodology is just as much for convenience as it is for performance, and I've started using the ultrafine Spyderco just because it's that much more convenient. Again, this isn't a recommendation. It's just what's working for me at the moment.

[Matt Radtke]

The ultimate goal is to dump the oil stones, I just need to do it in stages. I only have so much discretionary income each month.

I am planning on get a DMT anyway for flattening the Shaptons. Seems your option, working with the 12000, would be DMT->6k->12k? I think I can work with that.

[Andrae Covington]

The ultimate goal is to dump the oil stones, I just need to do it in stages. I only have so much discretionary income each month.

I am planning on get a DMT anyway for flattening the Shaptons. Seems your option, working with the 12000, would be DMT->6k->12k? I think I can work with that.

According to the craftsmanstudio blog, the DMT diamond stones aren't recommended for flattening ceramic waterstones like Shapton. Reasons given are that the diamonds will cut too quickly therefore removing too much material; they will leave a rough surface on the waterstone, and in the process the waterstone will excessively wear down the nickel on the DMT. I'd hate to shorten the lifespan of two expensive stones.:( In lieu of the Shapton lapping plate, they recommend wet/dry sandpaper on granite or float glass.

[David Weaver]

A DMT will actually work fine. The 325 DMT is finer than the shapton lapping plate. I used a DMT 325 grit that I wore out lapping chisels for a while before I got atoma hones. It was capable, if not quick. I still have it and use it for fine oilstones since I ruined most of its cutting ability lapping chisels on it.

The atoma works well, I've been using one for probably close to two years and have noticed no ill effects. It's quick, and at 400 grit, is also finer than the shapton lapping plate.

The extra coarse DMTs that people use (I don't know what they're equivalent to, maybe 100-125 or something), I agree, they are too coarse and are better for softer stones.

[Ben Rivenbark]

Im with david on this. I have shaptons ranging from 220 to 16000 (glass stones) and dnt stones from extra extra coarse to extra fine. The XXC dmt laps every stone i have. I don't use lots of pressure and the surface left behind is super smooth- zero perceptible gouges or scratches even under magnification. My xxc plate is well used but still very effective, and yields a dead flat surface as well. I can't see that i would ever pay for the shapton lapping plate.

On knifeforums.com, the in the kitchen section, the guys there are every bit as obsessed with stones (more, actually, I've found..) as most anyone here and i don't know of anyone who uses the shapton lapping plate. Dmt diasharp xxc's are the norm.

[Andrew Hughes]

Shapton also makes a diamond on glass for keeping the surface flat.Not as pricey as the dRLP.But its only one sided.I have one.It really does leave a nice surface to work a edge.It also has room for the slurry so you dont get suction.The dmt i have sticks to the stone so fast everything starts slipping and sliding.Maybe the new ones are different mine is kinda old.

[John Coloccia]

I have the DMT DuoSharp Coarse/Fine (blue/red). I use the Coarse side to flatten my stones (including the Shaptons) and to flatten my backs. It works wonderfully. The fine side gets used for a quick touch up when I don't want to go back to the Tormek.

One warning: I have a DMT Diasharp. It's absolutely useless. It's very NOT flat. I don't know why I even still have it as I haven't found any use for it whatsoever and I with I'd just returned it. My DuoSharp, on the other hand, is dead flat.

re: slipping and sliding
Yeah, you bet! I finally put mine in a holder. That's a big advantage to the lapping plate. Lots of wide open areas and little suction when you get close to flat. Putting the stone in a holder has pretty much fixed that for me, but boy did it drive me nuts for a little bit :)

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Matt,

It depends on what you are sharpening, steel wise. Both alloy and size.

If you are sharpening a large area of a tough alloy like A2, D2 or any HSS, then small steps are best. Heck, for that matter, if I was doing a lot of work on large, tough bevels I wouldn't be looking at Shapton at all, but that's not the question here, so I'll not go on about that.

If you are sharpening a large area/bevel on more reasonable steels such as almost anything Japanese, O1 or Cast Steel, then go with a 5K and down to a 1K or equivalent diamond plate. If your tools are Japanese, use a stone, the soft iron in the blade can pick up diamonds and tear them out of the plate very easily. Only for hard steel please.

If you are content with microbevels on tough stuff or the above reasonable alloys, then again, 1K-5K and call it good. You could also skip the 5K in favour of an 8K for general work, saving the 12K for things that need to be 'sharper' like finish plane blades.

If you have to buy in the US, then Craftsman Studio has good prices, good service and is apparently a good guy too. I have a US market Shapton 1K from there, purely for comparison with the local market Japanese 1K. Only obvious differences so far are a single letter in the model number and an English language label.


Oh yes, What David said down there is correct, the USPS will not allow anything from Japan (maybe other places) over 1lb in weight. All of those folks on eBay sending by EMS and whatnot might be in a spot of bother, or not. I've solved my shipping problems to the US now, so long as I don't ship any printer parts. Yes, the new regulations actually say 'printer parts'.

This is a good thing, since I have about 20lbs of stuff to go the US over the next few days, and sending it all by boat would not be the best solution.

(Dave, Kuroneko will do it, no problem. $$$ no big deal either. :D )

[Andrew Hughes]

Ya i hear ya john i dont have a holder for my dmt.I pick up my stone and hold it down on the Drlp.Since its the lighter of the two.ITs rubber feet keep it in place.I can see we all have different ways.The end result is the most important.Sharp edges and curly shavings.

[Ben Rivenbark]

The xxc dmt doesn't give me problems with sticking at all, and i can use the coarse 325 plate just fine if i have plenty of water. Running water is best for the coarse plate, but not needed for the for the xxc.

I bought the dmt xxc, c, f, ef, and the shapton220, 500, 1000, 2000, 6000, 8000 and 16000 all for less than the cost of the diamond on glass lapping plate from a fellow on knifeforums.com who decided he didn't like freehand sharpening. If the dmt xxc didn't work perfectly, I might look into it. That said, deep down inside I really am jealous and wish that i had one just because :-)

Ben

[David Weaver]

Hi Matt,

(Dave, Kuroneko will do it, no problem. $$$ no big deal either. :D )

Good. At least someone will pick up the ball for our postal system (or whoever it is who makes the decision to not take air packages over 1 kg).

Now, a little shift in the exchange rate to 1/130 or so, and we'll be in good shape :D

[David Weaver]

Hi Matt,


If you have to buy in the US, then Craftsman Studio has good prices, good service and is apparently a good guy too. I have a US market Shapton 1K from there, purely for comparison with the local market Japanese 1K. Only obvious differences so far are a single letter in the model number and an English language label.



I would like to hear from someone who has had crazing on their shapton stone without letting it freeze, or without setting it in the hot sun (direct sunlight for any drying stone is bad, as far as I know).

I like shapton's stones a lot, I don't trust their marketing claims, though!

[David Weaver]

It also has room for the slurry so you dont get suction.

The new DMTs still do that (get stuck), there's no room for the slurry on the stone and you get the same effect that you'd get trying to pull a freshly laid tile around on its mud.

Skewing them helps, as does fixing them to something to get a better grab on them. If you have a sink in your shop, which in my opinion is the best place to refresh a waterstone, anyway, then there is no stiction issue if you run water slowly over the stone while you do it.

I don't have a sink in my shop, but there's one through a door.

The atomas have a lot of space between their diamonds, and the stiction is not the same as it was with the DMTs. I guess you could still get it, but avoiding letting the surface of the stone dry mitigates it..

[David Weaver]

One warning: I have a DMT Diasharp. It's absolutely useless. It's very NOT flat. I don't know why I even still have it as I haven't found any use for it whatsoever and I with I'd just returned it. My DuoSharp, on the other hand, is dead flat.



I'm sure you already know this - I think DMT's flatness guarantee is something like 5 ten thousandths. I'd ask them for another one.

[John Coloccia]

I'm sure you already know this - I think DMT's flatness guarantee is something like 5 ten thousandths. I'd ask them for another one.

Actually, I didn't know that, although .050" seems like a lot for a stone. I just tossed it in the corner and forgot about it. I think I'll call them up and see what they say. It's been a while since I bought it, but we'll see. Thanks for the info.

[David Weaver]

Hi Matt,

If you are sharpening a large area of a tough alloy like A2, D2 or any HSS, then small steps are best. Heck, for that matter, if I was doing a lot of work on large, tough bevels I wouldn't be looking at Shapton at all...

Neither would I. They cut the super tough steels, but not too fast.

Two days ago, I sharpened my favorite muji. It was sharp for what I needed it for, but I could still see a tiny glint in some places of a wire edge after the 15k stone. If my eyes were worse, I wouldn't have seen it. :eek: I stropped it off with leather. It's RARE that an appreciable wire edge ever hangs on anything after a 1 micron stone.

I'm still waiting for someone to make a magic $75 soakless stone that cuts HSS as fast as diamonds and as fine as shaptons.

[David Weaver]

Actually, I didn't know that, although .050" seems like a lot for a stone. I just tossed it in the corner and forgot about it. I think I'll call them up and see what they say. It's been a while since I bought it, but we'll see. Thanks for the info.

.05!!! that's a crazy amount, though if they don't replace it, it's still fine for everything other than lapping. I have out of flat diamond hones that I like a lot - they are chinese copies of a koyama brand hone. They are out of flat about a tenth that much, which is still enough to notice if you lap the back of an iron with them, a fine stone only cuts/polishes the sides once you move up to the next step. they work great on bevels or hollow ground edges, though.

[John Coloccia]

.05!!! that's a crazy amount, though if they don't replace it, it's still fine for everything other than lapping. I have out of flat diamond hones that I like a lot - they are chinese copies of a koyama brand hone. They are out of flat about a tenth that much, which is still enough to notice if you lap the back of an iron with them, a fine stone only cuts/polishes the sides once you move up to the next step. they work great on bevels or hollow ground edges, though.

LOL...no no. .05" is what you said their guarantee was (5 ten thousandths). I took that as .05". Maybe I should have taken that as .0005"? Woops :D

My Diasharp, just eyeballing it, is out about .010". Mine is particularly coarse and I bought it specifically for quickly flattening the backs of new chisels. I will definitely contact them today and see what they say.

[Stuart Tierney]

The stone exists, but doesn't cost $75 until the magical $1-130yen mark arrives. Heck, list price is 11,000 yen, more than it's #10000 grit rating.

Even then, it'll be a 'maybe'.

I've had one sitting there looking at me, waiting for me to try it out for over a week. How sad is it when you have one of the most fearsome waterstones ever made, and all you can do is look at the silly thing. :(

[David Weaver]

Sounds like it's time to start delegating (training the kids to test tools) ;)

[Stuart Tierney]

Oh yeah, that's a great idea...

I'll have hacked up furniture, chunks of expensive hand forged steel strewn everywhere and the place will be a mess.

Actually, not much different to right now!


Should I get Mr. 4 started with a mortising chisel or a just a regular Oire-nomi? Always wanted a hole in the dining table, so I suppose a mortiser it is!


You have your daughter using one of them natural stones for a pillow yet? ;)

[David Weaver]

You have your daughter using one of them natural stones for a pillow yet? ;)

I'm pretty sure she would eat the corner off of one if left unsupervised. They do soften and crumble if left to soak. Maybe when she's two we'll start with sharpening.

[Russell Sansom]

David,
I have an 8k that crazed. I'm pretty sure I washed it in warm water, though. After the crazing I back engineered what happened, and the hot water is my best guess. I was upset when I perceived it, but am still able to use it. For a while I stopped at 6k ( I have 1k - 6k - 8k and 16k ), but I always want the mirror that the 8k gives me. The 8k finish gives me the best visual picture of what's going on with the edge as I use it.

I also think the 12k is an odd duck, but could possibly be an improvement over the 16k for an absolute final finish. I wouldn't ditch it. For the way I work, I'd like a 4k or 5k. 1k to 6k is a bit of a leap.

[David Weaver]

Russell - is the stone that you have one from japan or one labeled for the US market and sold in the US?

I thought the claim was a little odd for shapton, that the US stones are formulated for the US climate. Does that mean people in pensacola should buy the japan market stones? Maybe folks near the coast in washington, too?

How deep is the crazing, is it something that would wear off quickly or be lapped off? I guess I won't wash mine in hot water! They are hard to keep clean, I gave up on it a long time ago. The swarf that gets stuck on the sides is really on there hard.

[Matt Radtke]

I also think the 12k is an odd duck, but could possibly be an improvement over the 16k for an absolute final finish. I wouldn't ditch it. For the way I work, I'd like a 4k or 5k. 1k to 6k is a bit of a leap.

I was of a similar opinion until I saw Frank Klausz's video. He jumps 800-6000. Granted, he hollow grinds first, but I usually do too.

[Matt Radtke]

So, dumb question. I've always used a larger surface for lapping that the object being lapped. How do you lap Shaptons at 8"x 2 5/8" on the 8" DuoSharps?

[David Weaver]

Rub them together any way you want (easiest to leave the heaviest and grippiest on the bench and hold the other). The duosharps are flat enough that you'll still have a flat stone when you're done, and the stones are plenty similar enough in size that it's no big deal that the lapping surface isn't bigger.

[Russell Sansom]

Yes, I use hollow grind then hand-hone as well. Otherwise, I think these big leaps from steel "removal" grit to steel "polishing" grit ( following Ron Hock's distinction ) wouldn't work.

My so-called professional stones, not the glass-backed ones, were annotated in Japanese when new. I thought the crazing was actually a network of fractures, but I'm not sure. I continue to use it. The stone isn't falling apart and my tool doesn't catch on the surface. Perhaps it is only superficial. I'll take a photo today if I find a minute.