Shaper modification/slider

[Mark Bolton]

All this shaper talk and seeing the jessem slider added to the recent post has got me thinking of a project I had considered for some time.

We have a 5hp shaper in the shop and I have always wished we had sprung for a slider but it was not in the budget at the time. It so happens that I have a complete 9' panel saw taken apart and stacked in the corner of the shop (long story). In that pile is the fully assembled 9' slider assembly, and carriage. I have long thought about making the saw portion into a dedicated rip saw with feeder and then mounting the slider to the shaper.

My concern was the slider edge would be some 12" away from the spindle due to the cast iron table and then the bed on the slider is some 12" wide which would make for 24" of table in front of the spindle. I am wondering what others could see as the pro's and cons to going to the work of setting this up. I can think of a lot of pro's with having such a large slider attached to the shaper which is a major part of our work but I can think of some con's as well and I am sure there are many I am not thinking of.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mark

[Josiah Bartlett]

If you don't mind losing a bit of depth of cut, just make the slider table extend over the primary table so you can do smaller pieces.

[J.R. Rutter]

Sounds like you might end up with 2 machines that are not optimized for their tasks: a little shaper with huge sliding table and a rip saw that can't straight line rough edges. If it were me, I would try to sell that slider and pick up some of the many low priced purpose built machines that are on the market now.

Maybe you could get something going for cheap with the parts at hand. It might be a couple of interesting projects for the winter. Do you have employees that could possibly get hurt by an improvised machine?

[Mark Bolton]

The slider is a full assembly off a panel saw so about the only way I could accomplish the table sliding all the way to the spindle would be to attach a 9' long piece of something to the slider allowing it to overhang, and slide on, the cast iron shaper table.

Definitely an option to consider,

Thanks
Mark

[Brad Shipton]

What advantages do you see with a slider on the shaper? I have a slider on my 5hp shaper, and about all I think it helps with is making tenons. There are quite a few that make a great tenon jig for that task.

Is your shaper heavy enough for a 9'-0" long table? The overturning moment is quite large once that table is fully extended. I think a 9'-0" slider table might be a bit on the long side for a shaper and it could wind up being more of a nuisance unless you have some need for this length.

I don't think the slider offset from the shaper spindle is a problem. Even the sliding assembly on a Martin shaper is 12" away from the spindle.

http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Fpics%2FT2780_182_02.jpg&width=800m&height=600m&bodyTag=%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3D%22%23EDE6D4%22%3E&wrap=%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B% 22%3E%20|%20%3C%2Fa%3E&md5=155b086226e6b3f515feefd0901a1067 (http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Fpics%2FT2780_182_02.jpg&width=800m&height=600m&bodyTag=%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3D%22%23EDE6D4%22%3E&wrap=%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B% 22%3E%20%7C%20%3C%2Fa%3E&md5=155b086226e6b3f515feefd0901a1067)

Brad

[Mark Bolton]

Brad/J.R.,
I hadnt really thought about hanging the slider from the shaper per say. I was thinking it would have its own set of legs and be bolted to the shaper with custom built frame so it would be bearing on at least three or more points (tips of the slider beam and the shaper). A setup similar to a panel saw.

I knew the 9' was way long but it was one of those "its sitting in the corner" things and I dont think I would feel comfortable (that it would still work smoothly) if I tried to shorten the length.

Tenoning was one of my thoughts as well as just about any other process where we currently use a sled or square.

With regards to the employee issue, its not an issue right now as none of our employees run any of the bigger equipment.

I have thought of selling the panelsaw which I guess is the smarter decision.

Some of the insight I was looking for...

Thanks,
Mark

[Peter Quinn]

I'm guessing you could make it work. Clearly you don't need to use the sliders entire stroke, and you could implement stops (many have them under there some where) to limit the travel to the portion which would keep your shaper from tipping over. You might have to support the ends of the sliding carriage in some additional manner, you might have to add weight to the shaper cabinet to act as a ballast, and you might have to add some out riggers to the bottom of the shaper cabinet to keep it stable. At that point you become the machine designer, and you have to move well outside of the original box. I own a minimax t-40, there is a ballast in the cabinet (factory), and if you get the slider attachment option it comes with an out rigger to stabilize the cabinet base!

I do wonder what you want to process with a slider that large, and will your present shapers build actually support these operations? What type of shaper are you adding this arrangement to? I can think of one operation I do for which it would be useful. I use a weather strip in the bottom of entry doors that requires a 5/8"X1 1/4" rabbit into the bottom of the door, pretty much on center. At work we have 14' ceilings and 7 guys to help, and we stand the doors up and pass them over a TS dado with a tall fence. I find this insane, and in my basement shop I have 7' ceilings which rules this out anyway. I power feed doors through the shaper with one helper (my wife!), with a large slider I could do this alone.

Other things? Profiling the ends of table tops or counter tops, perhaps bar tops would be easier with a large slider. Tenoning of course assuming you want to buy the tooling and have the volume to justify the expense. But can your shaper spin cutters big enough to have this make sense? A big old 7-9HP SAC or SCMi or oliver or similar certainly could, benefit from a large slider, but many 5HP models simply cannot IMO.

[J.R. Rutter]

I know of a guy (not me) who uses a long slider along with a power feeder to precision trim and square doors to size while profiling the edge. Just another random thought...

[Mark Bolton]

I do wonder what you want to process with a slider that large, and will your present shapers build actually support these operations?

The size of the slider isnt really the issue. It would actually be a lot better if it were a 4' slider. The 9' is arbitrary.

There is no specific operation I had in mind, and while I would likely do "something" with it, I dont have an operation that would use 9' of travel. I really dont think the mechanics of mounting/truing/and supporting the slider are an issue. In fact I could easily advance on the adjust-ability and truing the panel saw had/has. We do a lot of metal fabrication so those are the easy parts. Supporting the slider just like a panel saw with some ballast would easily allow the slider to operate at its current length. I didnt have any intention of including the outboard carriage and swing arm in this. I was just thinking the beam and slider table.

My real concerns (and this has always been in the "hmm I wonder if I could...." stage") were of the problems or negative aspects of it after it has been set up. One major negative for me would be the space it would consume but I could see many small operations (using just a very small portion of the stroke) where it wold come in handy.

One for instance would be when we do M&T and end profiles on exterior items like trellis', pergola's, and so on. We often shape the end profiles and form tenons (one side at a time) with a sled. This can get a little cumbersome when you are running a profile on the end of an 8' cedar 4x4 or larger. This is a rare occasion but its one that comes to mind.

Again, I was just toying around with the idea and it was rekindled in my thoughts when I saw Brad's slider in his reply to my back fence post and then in the recent shaper post.

I have moved this saw around the shop a couple times now and perhaps J.R.'s input of selling it is more the way to go.

Mark

[Chip Lindley]

Mark, I have sketched plans to add a sliding table to my Moak shaper. The Moak spindle center is only 11" from the table edge; least of any of my shapers. My sliding table would ride on top of the shaper table, to within 1/2" of the cope cutters. 1" precision rods and Thomson linear pillow block bearings would guide the slider.

But, I ask myself, "What can this concoction do that my Weaver coping jig cannot?" Not much! The Weaver slides in the table slot of every other shaper I have. It is heavy steel and has no flex. If I did lots of wide interior and entrance door copes, I might justify a heavy-duty slider. For now, I cannot.

[Joe Calhoon]

Brad,
The picture of the Martin shaper; the sliding table is not in the operating position. When the Martin side mount slider is used it levers up and sits on top of the main table and is adjusted close to the cutters.

Mark,
I feel a sliding table on the shaper needs to be close to the cutters. One of our shapers (Felder) has an in table slider and half the time it is too far from the cutter to be accurate, especially on shorter work. This can be overcome somewhat with a tenoning plate but you still get flex if clamping close in. Felder offers long sliding tables on their shapers and there are a few operations where this would be useful. But, in my opinion mounting a table to the outside edge of the cast table would not work very well.

Joe

[Mark Bolton]

Joe,
Thanks for the input, thats why I posted. That was my major concern that the sider being 12" away from the cutter edge (farther from the spindle center) would be limiting. The fence of course would extend close to the cutter but none the less.

I think the consensus is in and has headed of a bunch of unneeded work.

Perhaps its time to get this thing bundled up and up for sale.

Thanks,
Mark

[Brad Shipton]

Joe, I should have known that for $50k it would do something like that. I found picture of it setup in the working position. I can only imagine the cost of all the linear bearings and moving parts to make that work to Martin standards.

http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/global-en/accessories/model/T27-Flex/back/831/mode/details/accessory/T2780-a/image/7.html

Mark, I have to admit that I only use my slider for passage door tenons or end matching custom flooring so the 12" offset has not been much of a problem.

Brad