Cleaning up a lamb's tongue - question..

[David Weaver]

the question is what to use to clean out the Vee in the lamb's tongue?

Haven't been spending much time in the shop lately, but I have a saw tote that's roughed out and mostly cleaned up, and have spent what I would consider an enormous amount of time on it to this point (maybe 4 or 5 hours).

Given that this is closed tote #2, the lamb's tongue still sucks, but I'd like to limit the suckage and clean it up in a tidy way, maybe by making a spring steel vee shaped scraper with a well defined point.

I'm *not* a carver, so I don't know what carvers would do other than sand, and I don't want to sand the area and lose detail.

Is the scraper an appropriate idea? files maybe instead? I know one thing for sure, files that are too large for the job just mark adjacent places and make more work.

[Jonathan McCullough]

The following may elicit groans from a number of people, but what you describe seems to be the perfect application for a incannel gouge or a back-bent gouge. I've been having some fun with these on convex curves as well as convex curves within concave curves, such as the web/horn part of a saw handle. On a lamb's tongue you could define the basic outline with a chisel or even a thin saw such as a dovetail saw, and then carefully pare a convex curve on either side with an incannel gouge. You could even use a really thin chisel or perhaps a whittlin' knife followed by some sandpaper, but the shape of the incannel gouge seems to recommend itself.

[David Weaver]

I did most of the material removal with a vee gouge, that worked fine, at least to some extent (would've worked better with more skill). I wonder what sawmakers used to clean up those grooves once they had the shape they wanted, probably scrapers or files.

[george wilson]

I mostly just use a straight chisel,cutting across the grain to make the juncture. Then you can file it up with a triangular file to smooth out the lumps,and a triangular needle file to get it real sharp down in the corners.

[David Weaver]

Part of my problem is that I let the lamb's tongue follow the contour of the bottom for a while, which makes it hard to get straight files in it. That was dumb on my part, lesson learned, plus it's ugly - the wrong style. I should've had it meet the cheeks and then veer away to get some separation. If I can remember, I'll take a picture of it in the state it's in before I sand the wenzloff paper pattern off of it and clean it up. I was careful this time to save the flats on the side of the tote, it does look more virtuous with those than my prior handle, and with as much curvature as there is on the thickness of those older totes, there's no comfort issue.

I should probably have some gunsmith's files to clean it out, but I guess I'll have to make a scraper.

I hate even this minimal amount of carving!

[george wilson]

You could get a triangular riffler. You can make one. Just heat up a file good and red,and bend it against a wooden block with a wooden chub. Work fast. Quench. Heat it up with some water on it. When the water sizzles off,wait a few seconds,and quench again.

[Michael Gaynes]

The Saw Blog just covered this:

http://thesawblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/filing-a-lambs-tongue/

He uses files: "a six inch double extra slim, and a seven inch slim taper".

[David Weaver]

Still some work to do at the transition of the lambs tongue before it meets the cheek, but i have plenty of files, all the way to feather edge japanese saw files, to take care of that.

It's almost a sin for me to be using this apple on trial totes. George, I should send the other blank to you!

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Dave,

I don´t know if a v-shaped scraper will work, never tried it. But what I tried and what I therefore can recommend is to use a simple nail file (saphir or diamond). It´s stiff enough to work deep in the groove of the lambs tongue and still flexible enough to follow the contour of the cheek / tongue if its held with both hands while filing.

I know, you don´t want to sand. But there is the additional possibility to wrap the slim file with sanding paper in different grits. It´s no big deal to sand the area around the lambs tongue by going this way.

I just shaped a Swiss Pear handle by using the nail file for the cleaning up work.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/TOGxRJ5JOXI/AAAAAAAAB70/1VG0Lh11eGk/s400/Two%2BLawyers%2BTools%2BSash%2BSaw%2B14%2Binch%2BS wiss%2BPear%2BHandle%2Blinks.JPG

Klaus

[John Coloccia]

I'll start by saying that I don't make saw totes. Not ever. Every now and then, though, I have to get into a deep crevice. Sometimes I cheat. I take a thin strip of sandpaper, hold it taught, and cleanup the the deep edges like that. If I need to clean the bottom a little, I fold the sandpaper to make a little edge, and clean up the bottom like that. It know it's not how a skilled craftsman would do it, but I'm not proud. I'll take it however I can get it :)

Considering it's "just" a saw tote, you guys are doing some really nice work. I saw one today someone brought in for sharpening. The carving on it was absolutely beautiful.

[Andrew Gibson]

OK all these saw handle threads are starting to make me feel like the handles I made are hamburger meat in a world of fillet mignon.

[Robert Culver]

I can see the problem that your incountering I use a v-tool to get started then I have the handle makers rasp from tfww then I follow that with needle files .I like the Idea of a nail file never thought of that. One thing that may help you get in there is something that I have used for fine tuning some things and thats a straight fishtail gouge If you had a straight and another with just a slight curve say a # 1 Or #2 I think you would be able to work your way around that fairly well just a couple ideas good luck your off to a good start.

[george wilson]

Klaus,you get so deep on those lamb's tongues. Have you tried using a Japanese saw file? They usually are cut on only 1 side,but you can get them cut on both sides. They are MUCH more thin and acute than any knife file,or even nail file. Lee Valley sells both types. I do not think a scraper is the answer. It will not yield smooth,lump free surfaces like a file will.

David,your handle is looking fine. I don't think you are going to waste that applewood. WHAT ARE you using for saw screws?

[David Weaver]

Klaus,you get so deep on those lamb's tongues. Have you tried using a Japanese saw file? They usually are cut on only 1 side,but you can get them cut on both sides. They are MUCH more thin and acute than any knife file,or even nail file. Lee Valley sells both types. I do not think a scraper is the answer. It will not yield smooth,lump free surfaces like a file will.

David,your handle is looking fine. I don't think you are going to waste that applewood. WHAT ARE you using for saw screws?

Brass split nuts. I can't remember the size, I got them from wenzloff last week, they're not the large size that went in my other saw, but they're not the small size like you'd see on an old english dovetail saw with an open tote. Maybe 1/2 inch or something. I'll try to line up the direction of the nuts this time (there will be three).

I'm really impressed that they turn these handles out fast enough to make money. When all is said and done, i'll probably have spent 8 hours on this one.

Making some double and single cut specialty files out of O1 might be a good idea, not necessarily for these, but learning to make tools to improve the quality of the buns on my infill planes, to get sharp detail on them.

I did just do a little more cleanup around the lamb's tongue with two small japanese files (both cut on both sides). One standard and the other one is a diamond coated file (that one worked really well and didn't leave any marks). I think you're right that dragging a scraper over everything would leave a bumpy surface that just had the scratches removed.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

George,

an interesting hint although a needle file isn´t flexible at all. But there are places enough to shape where no flexible tool is needed. The Japanese saw files seem to have very sharp edges. Pedder will send one to me to give it a try. We´ll see ...

Klaus

[David Weaver]

Klaus, they do. they are a fine cut, too, so it's nice to have a brush nearby to get the wood out of them a couple of times a minute.

Schtoo has one that's diamond coated in case you're using it somewhere that you don't want to leave file marks, it's about the same price as a regular japanese saw file, i'm not sure of the grit, but I would guess 320-400. Cuts in every direction without leaving a mark. Never thought of using it until yesterday, but it works well.

[David Weaver]

Dave,

I just shaped a Swiss Pear handle by using the nail file for the cleaning up work.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/TOGxRJ5JOXI/AAAAAAAAB70/1VG0Lh11eGk/s400/Two%2BLawyers%2BTools%2BSash%2BSaw%2B14%2Binch%2BS wiss%2BPear%2BHandle%2Blinks.JPG

Klaus

Nice tote! I'm sure my wife has a nail file somewhere that I can hook.