Back in analysis paralysis... or How on earth do you successfully heat a garage shop?

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Well I went out this morning to work in my 3rd car bay garage shop. My house is in Norther Utah in the SLC area. Seemed like a good idea at the time. And then I realized that even though I had only been out there for about 10 minutes my fingers hurt. And I wasn't even working on my lathe. I was just cleaning and organizing.

I have been thinking about heaters this year. In past years I used one of those "jet engine tube" propane heaters that just sits on the floor. But I have really worried about CO and other problems from that kind of heater so I want to try to avoid getting that one out this year.

I have spent a part of the last few days and a bunch of time today researching heating options. There are so many conflicting reports, even here on the creek, that I am just kind of confused.

This is a very residential neighborhood that I live in. About 1/3 acre lots. So the homes while not packed in are all around me. So it limits a few options.

I have so far today gone from thinking a DuraHeat kerosene heater to a number of 110v space heaters around the shop to a 4000 watt 240v forced air heater to a 5000 watt forced air heater to a Natural Gas vented "somehow" ceiling mounted heater.

The problem is that nothing seems like a good solution that is a clear winner. There is at least 1 problem with each one:
- Kerosene: Supposedly safe to use unvented inside. DuraHeat claims this all over the place. But I read here on the creek that running it inside will just flat out kill you unless you went it so well that all the heat runs out. So CO problems coupled with condensation issues.

- Small heaters. Just not enough power/heat. I would need to many of them coupled with fire hazzards.

- Large 4000 watt heater. Better that small heaters, for some and vehemently not for others. Will jump the power bill to the point of putting me in the poor house. One person claimed about a $320 jump per month. That doesn't seem like reality or they would never sell a single one. Also apparently not enough to heat a 600 sq foot 3 car garage.

- Larger 5000 watt heater. Same problems as above only more so. HIgher power bill + larger initial cost. Still not enough heating ability.

- NG ceiling mounted heater. Quite an initial machine cost, need to have a vent put in which may or may not be allowed in my neighborhood. 110,000 BTU heater. Way to much for my size of garage.

So what really works in a 20'x30' 3 car garage? The ceiling now has about R50 in it. Paid for that last winter. The walls are still unknown but I will be looking into that this week. I am just spending 3 or 4 hours out there a week. I would love to do some more this winter, but it kinds of makes it hard to spend too much but giving up any hint of shop time is also very hard to do.

So someone living in the Idaho, CO, Utah, NV, ??? area that experiences somewhat similar weather and temperatures must have gone thru this before me. So I thought I would ask what people have done that has really been successful?

I have a few options. Just get a 240v 4000watt electric heater and try it. Then perhaps get a second, they seem to start at around $100 and then just live with the electricity bill.

Too help with this I can wall of the 3rd car of my garage. This would give me more wall space for cabinets etc... and cut the space actually needed to be heated to a 13' x 23' area and then it would also help with the cooling in the summer. But it has drawback in flow, light, re-sale??? in the garage etc...

Or I can just start spending and never look back. And buy... something? No real clue what yet. Perhaps something that burns NG and vents outside in a reasonable way.

Like I said I am kind of frozen because nothing really seems like it is in my budget and will work. So I am pleading for a bit of insight from those that have tried this before.

Thanks!
Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Oh I forgot to mention the other idea I had was to put in a true heat pump mini-split. So that it could cool in the summer and heat in the winter. In the summer it would be great. But in the winter for heating what I read today told me that it won't work it is below freezing outside. And that is often the case here in Utah in the winter. It was only about 40 when I was outside today. So it would have worked today but I really need a solution that will work regardless. I love working out in the shop when the temp is between about 65 and 70. So I am thinking that I am not really trying to raise the temperature all that much I don't think.

Anyway, just wanted to add what I had forgotten while typing quickly trying to beat the battery on my laptop.

Joshua

[paul cottingham]

Mine works down to about -5 or -10 celsius.

[David G Baker]

Number one issue is "INSULATION". If your garage/shop is well insulated heating it is much less of a problem. I am using one of the ceiling mounted natural gas heaters. It works okay but because I don't spend much time in the building during cold weather it is never really comfortably warm to work in. I keep the building at around 50 degrees 24/7 and turn it up to 65 when I want to work on projects but the metal tools are cold and hurt my hands when I use them. I would have to turn the heat up high several hours prior to starting the work if I wanted to be very comfortable.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Mine works down to about -5 or -10 celsius.
Hi Paul,

Sounds good. What kind of a heating situation do you have?

Thanks,
Joshua

[Doug Carpenter]

I just bought a Reznor ceiling mount gas furnace used on CL. I like you have used a big torpedo heater for several years and I am tired of the smell, noise and risk.

I think it will be a good solution for heat in my shop. I have been looking for a while and the price was nice. In your case you could install it on the car side of your garage and it won't steal space from your shop.

[Scott T Smith]

Number one issue is "INSULATION". If your garage/shop is well insulated heating it is much less of a problem. I am using one of the ceiling mounted natural gas heaters. It works okay but because I don't spend much time in the building during cold weather it is never really comfortably warm to work in. I keep the building at around 50 degrees 24/7 and turn it up to 65 when I want to work on projects but the metal tools are cold and hurt my hands when I use them. I would have to turn the heat up high several hours prior to starting the work if I wanted to be very comfortable.

+1, especially re the insulation.

In previous garage shops, I used an old natural gas house furnace (good used takeout) that I could pick up off of craigslist for little or nothing. For the new shop, I have picked up some good used, Seer 12 split systems with a built in gas furnace from people that upgraded due to the tax incentives. If you go this route, an appartment sized unit would work well (2 ton would be plenty) and you'd have the benefit of heating and cooling, without worrying about excessive electric bills from a heat pump.

Make sure that your garage doors are well insulated and sealed too.

[Eric McCune]

Hey joshua,

I too live in Northern Utah. Just installed a PTAC this weekend. I think it would be a great option for you.

The heat pump is a very efficient way to heat and cool a shop using a single device. Easy to install. Most heat pumps will heat efficiently down to an outside temp 25 degrees or so. After that, the back up heat strips kick in. Heat strips are straight electrical heat like a space heater. Mine has 5000 watts in heat strips.


My unit also has an anti-freeze feature that automatically kicks on if the indoor temp drops below 40.

My shop is only 16x18. When I first turned it on yesterday, it took my shop from 58 degrees to 70 in about 5 minutes.

I went with an Amana PTH153E50AXXX

[John Gregory]

I installed a 60K BTU Hot Dawg (propane) (http://www.growersupply.com/60btuhotdawh.html) I use refillable tanks and I use a regulator purchase from a trailer supply store, so it is hooked up to two tanks, when one is empty it switches over to the other one. I kept a third tank full so I have it hooked up while I refill the other two.
My shops is 20 x 20 with 10' ceilings. R38 in the rafters, and R13 in the walls. I never let it get below 50 degrees. I turn it up to 64 when we work in it. It warms up in 5 minutes.

Cost of operations is depending on how often you are in the shop, the temp outside, cost of propane etc. But over all, during the winter, I have determined it cost me about $1.00 to $1.25 per day over the heating months.

I Have 12 90 watt florescence tubes that light the shop. So we we are out there for very long. the heater runs infrequently.

The key to economy and efficiency IMO, is insulation.

Oh yeah, I put in a programmable thermostat and programed it to set back to 50 degrees each night, so I don't accidentally leave it on.

[Joe Leigh]

Garages are the worst. in addition to the ceiling insulation issue and the lack of wall insulation, there's the overhead doors. These are notorious for leaking at the base where the door meets the concrete floor. PTAC or mini splits might work but their recovery rate is very low. Your best bet might be, if you have natural gas or propane, to install a hanging unit heater. These units heat quickly and run quietly.

[Don Jarvie]

Josh, you may have to bite the bullet and spend a few bucks since you have a large space.

I have the Dayton G73 and it heats my 20x20 garage well. I have carriage doors and I just weather stripped them the other day and that will seal the doors well. I also insulated the ceilings and walls. I don't worry too much about the electricity since I'm out there 15 hrs a week.

You would need probably 2 since they are good for 500 sq ft. There may be larger units out there.

If you have gas the gas company will come out and give you some ideas and options. It may be a little pricey but it will be done right and heat the place well.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I live in Denver, Colorado. My old shop was a 26x30 detached garage. It was a PITA to keep warm or cool.

Today, my current shop is a 989 sf attached garage, fully insulated - including the doors. This morning, the shop temp was 58 degrees and the outside temp was 26 degrees, with snow. In the summer months, it rarely gets above 80!

Last winter, we had a number of days where the outside temp was below zero. If you have everything insulated, you should be able to run your propane heater for 5 or 10 minutes, every hour.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

The most important factor by far is insulation! I have a 24 X 24 shop in Indiana. Cold in winter, hot and humid in summer. I use an Enerco radiant heater, and it works great. It's a 25,000 BTU heater that makes you feel like you are standing in the sun on a warm summer day. It is thermostatically controlled and uses no electricity. Google Enerco H25N.

Window AC is summer is also very nice to have.

[Randy Rizzo]

I live in the UP. We installed two Sterling Garage Guy heaters, similar to Hot Dawgs (75K BTU, LP fuel) this summer, one in the garage and one in the shop (28X24) It hasn't gotten real cold here....yet. Been as in the low to mid 20's. The one in the shop cycles on a couple of times an hour and I'm keeping it at 65F right now as we've got a project to finish up. R38 in the ceiling, R19 in the walls and R38+R19 in the floor. (The shop is in the second floor of a two story garage, the floor trusses were 16" deep to span without support posts, so we just filled it with insulation) One thing to keep in mind, when using any type of forced air heat, separated combustion, use outside air to keep from pulling all the dust laden air into the burner. In our old house/garage I used a ventless 45K NG heater, never again. 30 minutes working in there was about all you could stand due to the fumes. Too early to tell how much more this will add to our LP useage, but it sure is nice to be able to out and just crank up the thermostat and work in shirtsleeves!!

[Nathan Allen]

If you have access to NG that will be your most cost effective solution long term. Check into your HOA bylaws on both vertical and horizontal mount exhaust. You will also need to verify with an inspector, there are restrictions on where they can be placed in relation to the main service entrance, windows, entry ways, etc.

On initial cost, you can get a Mr Heater 45k for around $400, The F272800 which is a 40k unvented runs around $350. This plus the cost for the plumber will be your savings over one maybe two heating seasons.

[Chris Friesen]

- NG ceiling mounted heater. Quite an initial machine cost, need to have a vent put in which may or may not be allowed in my neighborhood. 110,000 BTU heater. Way to much for my size of garage.

I'm in the Canadian prairies. I have a 45K NG ceiling mounted unit heater. 30K would probably have been lots, but wasn't in stock.

Make sure you're properly insulated and have weatherstripping around the door(s).

[Rick Moyer]

I use the Dayton heater mentioned above. My shop(garage) is also about 21x21. I only have r-13 in the walls (2x4) but have r-19 in the ceiling. two 9' garage doors that are insulated but leak a little. I only ever have to set the control on about 2 or 3 (out of 9) to keep it 65 even when it's 20 or below. I don't know exactly how much it runs per hour but it isn't probably more than a total of 10 minutes I'd guess. So I don't think it's killing my electric bill.
As others have said, insulation is the key.
Oh, I also have a ceiling fan in the center of the ceiling.

[Greg Portland]

I have a few options. Just get a 240v 4000watt electric heater and try it. Then perhaps get a second, they seem to start at around $100 and then just live with the electricity bill.Skip the electric solution, the utility costs will be huge unless you use it very rarely. Go with a ceiling mounted gas heater. For maximum safety you should look at units with a separated combustion chamber (although not everyone does this).

[Bob Riefer]

Skip the electric solution, the utility costs will be huge unless you use it very rarely.


I'll have to dig up the cost analysis on this because I researched that before making my final decision back in the day.

But i know that in my 20 x 20 insulated, detached barn, several windows, and one 9x7 insulated garage door... I haven't taken a hit to my bill using my G73 Dayton - in fact, I think it averages less than $50 per month additional. Factor in the ease of installation, the high efficiency of electric units, the low cost of buying the unit initially... well, it was easily worth it for me.

Then again, I'm in there a few hours per day, not 10 hours a day (i.e. at nights after my main job). I keep the space above 40 degrees permanently and heat it up easily into the 60's when I'm out there (and into the low 70's when my wife comes out to visit).

[Chris Friesen]

For maximum safety you should look at units with a separated combustion chamber (although not everyone does this).

A separated combustion chamber is likely not required. The particle/vapour density required for an explosion would be such that you wouldn't be able to breath it.

Basically, if you're comfortable lighting a match in your shop, you're okay to run a non-separated chamber.

[Jonathan Spool]

Joshua,
Ditto on the insulation reccomendations. I believe you can get a door rated to 15r.
For the most economical heat solution, I suggest picking up a mini split ductless that has a dc vriable freq driven motor, and one that will work down to zero degrees or so farenheight. A little spendy to get into initially, but extremely economical to run thereafter. My system heats/cools aprox 2600 sq ft in three zones, and its all run off of one 220v 20 amp circuit.

[Chris Friesen]

I'll have to dig up the cost analysis on this because I researched that before making my final decision back in the day.

It depends on a number of variables, including relative cost of natural gas and electricity, how fast you need to heat the shop, installation complications, etc.

For example, I pay $0.12/KWh. For me, 1W of constant use costs about $1.05 per year.

Put another way, around here electrical heat costs about 3x as much to operate as natural gas. At $50/month to operate an electric heater, a natural gas one would save about $33/month.

A 45K BTU/hr heater is equivalent to 13KW, or 55A at 240V. I keep the shop just above freezing normally. To get the same speed of heating up the shop when I want to work, I'd have to run a separate feeder just for the heater.

[Bob Riefer]

Chris, you clearly have a good handle on the topic and your advice is very sound without a doubt. However, given the OP's statements on his situation and needs:



So what really works in a 20'x30' 3 car garage? The ceiling now has about R50 in it. Paid for that last winter. The walls are still unknown but I will be looking into that this week. I am just spending 3 or 4 hours out there a week. I would love to do some more this winter, but it kinds of makes it hard to spend too much but giving up any hint of shop time is also very hard to do.


I'd be hard pressed to push him any way other than a Dayton G73 (or similar). At a cost of $300 including the breaker and wire to hook it up... he'll be comfortable and happy right away.

[Steve Costa]

We live at 8200' in So West Colorado. Temps in the winter -10 to +25. Our home has 23' ceilings. To mitigate the propane bill :( we use two electric infared heaters from Comfort Furnace, sold by Earth Friendly Solutions which is located in the Denver area. These work very effectively for us. There will be some increase in your electric bill. Another plus is you cars will be warmer.:)

If your garage is about 1000 sf with 8 or 9' ceilings one of these should work. If larger, I would suggest 2. Each heater requires a 15 AMP circuit. You can set the temp you want and it will keep it there automatically. The only caveat is that if your garage floor is concrete or tile you will need to raise the heater 2 or 3 feet off the floor as the concrete will absorb the heat.

We paid $399 for ours with free shipping. If you call you may get a better deal than what is shown on the web site. Best time to buy is in the summer, usually August. Google "Comfort Furnace" to find the sites which sell them

[Charles Goodnight]

Look into a direct vent kerosene heater. Monitor used to be good, but I have heard that may not be so true any more (http://www.monitorheat.com/products.html). Toyatomi apparently makes good oil heater. (http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/laserventedheaters/OM-22.php)

unvented kerosene heaters scare me. The release lots of combustion products, not to mention lots of water. The direct vent furnaces are easy to install, and while not immune to dust problems much less of a fire hazard then unvented heaters.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Josh, you may have to bite the bullet and spend a few bucks since you have a large space.
Yeah. Spending money in the right place and way isn't the problem. It is spending money just to have to re-spend it again that is getting to be a problem. I have done it with sharpening systems to try and get a better edge, with lathes, with turning tools, etc...

Things I want to try and learn from the mistakes of the past and do it right the first time. I was just trying to figure out what "right" actually is.

Joshua

[Andrew Joiner]

Joshua, You can try heat lamps a few at a time at very little cost.
You get heat and light for the same dollar . I have 250watt clear (not red)heat lamps above my benches and most used machines. It is all the heat I need in Oregon's mild winters. My shop isn't insulated.

It may work to supplement a main heat source in a cold climate. You do get instant on light and heat. Kinda like stepping from the shade to direct sun.

It does take my thermometer about an hour to go from 40F to 55F, but it's on the wall 6 feet from the warm benches.

A thermometer on the benches goes from 40F to 90F real fast. That's when I switch off every other lamp. By then all the cast iron has warmed and it holds the heat awhile. Great for drying glue.

An added plus is the heat lamps last much longer than standard bulbs. It's a simple,cheap way to get heat for my needs.

[Joe A Faulkner]

If you are going to do any finish work in your shop, you should think twice about a conventional LP, or NG based unit. If it has open combustion and draws its air from inside your shop, you could be asking for trouble. The price of the unit goes up considerably when you price out the seperate combustion models. Both Modine (Hot Dawg) and Reznor sell hanging units with seperated combustion and both have good reviews here and elsewhere. Good luck with your decision.

[Ronald Blue]

As you have probably determined by now there are many opinions and ways to heat your shop. I can tell you from experience that if you have either NG or LPG heat in your home that will be the easiest way to heat your shop. Electric would be a distant third choice. Unless you want to haul kerosene home with you. Rest assured you will run out in the middle of the evening or afternoon while finishing or gluing a project. That's Murphy's law at work. There are some good used furnaces to be had at a reasonable price and their footprint isn't to intrusive. A ceiling mount would be great if you don't mind spending the bucks. I don't know what your electricity is per kilowatt there but ours is over 12 cents with taxes. Gas is hard to beat because it warms up quickly when you dial it up. Good luck and let us know what you decide on.

[Greg Roberts]

Is your shop attached to your house? What type of heating and hot water system do you have in the house?

I've heated many garages by tapping off the hot water heating system in the house with a separate zone. Instead of baseboard heat, I used baseboard heat elements installed in a wooden box and used a very efficient fan (like a Panasonic fan) to move air over the elements. Safe, quiet, unobtrusive, and efficient (if the house system is efficient). The only drawback is that it can't raise the temp quickly, it kind of has to stay on all the time. But it might be a good way to keep the shop at a steady 55 and then you can augment with something else.

If you have hot air heat in your home, maybe you could run some ductwork out there.

No matter what, insulation is the key to making the shop warm, comfortable and reasonable to heat. I recommend cellulose insulation for attics. Air-sealing is very important - go after any leaks you can find and seal them up.

Greg

[Larry Fox]

One thing that I have not seen mentioned and which I am considering for my 3-car garage shop is regular old electric baseboard hear that I can buy at the BORG. I have a good amount of spare power in the shop (both 220 and 110) and plan on installing a thermostat to control it. Can anyone think of a reason I should NOT go this route?

[Chris Friesen]

If you are going to do any finish work in your shop, you should think twice about a conventional LP, or NG based unit. If it has open combustion and draws its air from inside your shop, you could be asking for trouble.

This is often mentioned, but I think it's overblown. In order for there to be a risk of explosion, you'd have to have a vapour/dust concentration high enough that you'd likely have a hard time working even with a mask. Short of spraying solvent-based finishes directly into the intake, I can't see there being a problem.

Basically if you feel comfortable lighting a match in the shop, you'll be fine with an open combustion unit.

[Art Mulder]

Well I went out this morning to work in my 3rd car bay garage shop.

Please clarify... are you saying you want to heat an entire 3 car garage, or are you just working in the 3rd bay of a 3 car garage? (ie: you only use 1 bay of the garage as a shop)

Are the big doors insulated? Injected or Styrofoam? Wood? Well sealed?

You already mentioned the walls. And I think it's already been said, you might as well work on insulating those first.

[Marty Paulus]

Josh,

My 2 car garage is heated by a NG 30KBTU ventless heater I got from HF. I find that will actually get the garage up to over 80F in a hurry even during the coldest weather here in Michigan. The trick I have found with this style heater is air movement. IF the air isn't moving the warm up takes much longer and it doesn't feel as warm. My solution was the extra ceiling fans from some remods we did in the house. Added one in the garage and it warm up from below freezing to 60F plus in about 20-30 minutes. When it gets down to about zero or so I supplement the warm up with a Kerosene heater and a box fan. Once it is warm enough to work without the coat I turn off the kerosene and turn the gas heater to low.
Another big one that was mentioned is my insulated garage door. This winter I am hoping to add some insulation to the ceiling when I add a floor to my attic for better storage.

Insulation and air circulation. Get these two down and it will not take much to keep that shop warm.

[Jon McElwain]

Is your shop attached to your house?

If you have hot air heat in your home, maybe you could run some ductwork out there.

No matter what, insulation is the key to making the shop warm, comfortable and reasonable to heat. I recommend cellulose insulation for attics. Air-sealing is very important - go after any leaks you can find and seal them up.

Greg

I have a house in northern CO with a 2.5 car garage. Turns out there was a heating duct that ran from the basement to the second story along one wall of the garage. For $15 in parts and a hacksaw I had heat in the garage. Still working on completing the insulation, but with just a few dollars/month rise in my NG bill, my shop stays around 55 degrees in winter. I've got a section of a wall and an attic gap that needs insulation yet, but once finished, I'm sure it will get plenty warm in there. Oh, and with the vent I can run AC out there in the summer.

Don't know how your house is heated, but most of the houses we looked at appeared to have this ventable feature in them!

Good luck - with all these posts, it might still be confusing! :eek:

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Please clarify... are you saying you want to heat an entire 3 car garage, or are you just working in the 3rd bay of a 3 car garage? (ie: you only use 1 bay of the garage as a shop)
There is currently no separation between the 3rd car that is the "shop" and the rest of the garage. I mentioned it as the 3rd bay in a 3 car garage mostly to give an indication of general layout and size. I have enjoyed the thought of being able to use extra size when needed. So the open feel has been mentally enjoyable even though used only once. However after reading so much of what has been written here I have decided to make a change to that. I will be putting up a 2x6 wall with an external door, even though it is 100% inside of the garage, for insulation purposes and a double pane window to keep light moving thru and so the LOML can tell if I am in there or not. Thus I will be heating and cooling a much smaller section of the space. I can still pull cars out to get more space if needed but I can plan just to live in my own little shop the remaining 99.9% of the time.

With less overall space I should be able to heat and cool it much more efficiently.


Are the big doors insulated? Injected or Styrofoam? Wood? Well sealed?
They are metal face doors with foam insulation inside and a vinyl layer on the back. There is also a rubber liner around the outside to help limit/stop airflow. I don't think they are the bomb-diggity in terms of insulation but they are pretty darn good and quite tight as far as garage doors go. I have been thinking about increasing their air-tightness for when not being opened.


You already mentioned the walls. And I think it's already been said, you might as well work on insulating those first.

Yeah I am going to be doing so. It is the easiest place for me to start at least with the checking.

Thanks for the reply,
Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

As I mentioned in a recent reply to this thread I have been thinking about what I am really trying to accomplish. I want to get a shop space heated. In reading the responses I realized that I had somehow shifted my thinking without realizing it to heating and cooling the "whole garage". Which is one way to deal with the shop space but includes so much more that isn't necessary.

So I will now be building a wall that I can insulation to section off the workshop area. I am not sure what impact it will have on any potential re-sale value of the house but it should give me some very nice and very needed additional wall space in there for cabinets and shelves etc... So I am looking forward to that.

With that addition to my situation my space is actually cut down to about 20' x 13'. I would love a larger space but well... that is life. :)

So I am now looking at heating and cooling a much smaller space. In reviewing that need I am now leaning very strongly towards a ductless mini-split unit. This will kill 2 birds with one stone and give me heating in the winter and cooling in the summer. However after reading Eric McCune's comments about the PTAC with and electric heat backup I went out searching online and found that a number of vendors have mini-split units with these in place so that I can get heat on even the coldest of days outside. Seems like a very nice alternative. As the LOML will kill me if I cut that big a hole in the house. She has these issues about things looking pretty. So Weird!

But having made it this far through my decision process I have come to the point of choosing the size of the mini-split unit. According to the manufacturers sites I am right in the middle of the range for a 9000 BTU heat pump unit. As they go up to about 350 sq feet. But it is a garage with air leak issues around doors, cold cement floor issues and potential insulation issues in the walls not shared with the house itself. So it would seem that more-is-better in overcoming these.

Then I started thinking about the fact that I don't want to run this all the time. But to come home some evenings from work and think, I want to go play in the shop, and kick on either the heat or the A/C depending on season and have it be "livable/usable" in fairly short order. Given that goal it would seem that going way over-sized could be a good idea. So I was looking at 18,000 BTU and 24,000 BTU heat pump units.

But I don't know if this is advisable. I read a rather cryptic comment on-line about air conditioning, cooling specifically, that said don't go too over-sized or you can have humidity issues?!!? I am trying now to track-down exactly what can happen in that case as Utah is a desert and humidity has never been a problem here.

So I thought I would ask that question as well. What would you guys recommend for size? Go for the gusto? Or stay closer to the recommendations of the manufacturers?

Thanks for all the help, info and suggestions. I have read every post in this thread with great interest!

Joshua

[Bob Riefer]

One quick point about the wall between your spaces. If you opt for a sliding double door or a French door (eliminate the planned window) you could still sprawl into the garage side when needed.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Hi Greg,


Is your shop attached to your house? What type of heating and hot water system do you have in the house? It is. It is in my attached garage, in the 3rd car bay. The furnace and utility room is actually right there in that same corner. I ran a power feeder out to a sub-panel in the garage for my tool with less than 12' of wire. Luckily I bought 30+ feet "just to be sure".


I've heated many garages by tapping off the hot water heating system in the house with a separate zone.

If you have hot air heat in your home, maybe you could run some ductwork out there.
I have a forced air furnace for both heating and cooling in my home. I have seen other homes in the region that ran vents out to the garage. It made a real difference. I had actually thought about this process but worried about a few things. Given where the furnace room is I could add a vent without much trouble. But given it's proximity to the blower in the furnace I worry about all of the air rushing out into the garage. Path of least resistance and all. There was also the question of constantly heating and cooling the entire space when not needed for days at a time.

However, now that I have plans to wall off some shop space and insulate the snot out of it I think I will revisit the idea. Just tapping onto the houses main system could work out very nicely in so much smaller a space. Then just opening vents either the day before I want to be out there or earlier in the day could really make a difference. Thanks for pointing out this idea to me. I think it is really worth looking into.

Will I need a return air vent as well? Or just rely on the rest of the house feeds to take care of that process... I think that I might need one. Might be good to talk to an HVAC specialist about this. Do we have any here on the Creek? :)


No matter what, insulation is the key to making the shop warm, comfortable and reasonable to heat. I recommend cellulose insulation for attics. Air-sealing is very important - go after any leaks you can find and seal them up.
Yeah I am really agree with the idea of upping the insulation. Last Christmas I blew in an R-50 worth of cellulose insulation in the attic space. It was nice and deep and has made a major difference already in the shop.

Anyone have any recommendations on who to contact about blowing insulation into the existing walls in the garage? Or is it better to just take the sheetrock all the way down and start again from bare studs?

I have checked the window out there and it is double paned and nicely sealed. The man-door seals well also. But the garage door is going to be an ongoing issue. I did some work on it before and some research recently and the doors just don't have a very good R-value. So I am going to have to come up with something for that front as it is the biggest leak.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

I have a house in northern CO with a 2.5 car garage. Turns out there was a heating duct that ran from the basement to the second story along one wall of the garage. For $15 in parts and a hacksaw I had heat in the garage. Still working on completing the insulation, but with just a few dollars/month rise in my NG bill, my shop stays around 55 degrees in winter. I've got a section of a wall and an attic gap that needs insulation yet, but once finished, I'm sure it will get plenty warm in there. Oh, and with the vent I can run AC out there in the summer.

How have you been insulating the walls? Were the open or sheet-rocked? Did you need a return air vent? I have been thinking about this since reading the recent posts and wondering if it is necessary out of a shop space. I was thinking it would be necessary but then realized that I don't really want too. I don't want to suck dust laden air back down in to the furnace system to quickly clog the filters. So it seems like I am going to need a push only system if I go this route.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Logan William]

On the wall you're going to put up I would elect for putting in double doors without any sill/threshold on them so when you need to expand out to the next stall for projects its easy to roll carts/tools etc around. Since you'll be making the opening you should be able to find a pair of doors for fairly cheap at a Habitat ReStore of similar salvage yard, then just make sure the gap between the door bottom and floor is minimal and put a piece of weatherstrip on the bottom rail of the door and you should be in good shape.

If it was me I would probably pull down the sheetrock on the walls, staple up 4 or 6 mil plastic for moisture barrier, then blow in insulation from the top of the cavity and hang sheetrock back over the top. If you're comfortable hanging sheetrock yourself it really isn't that expensive for the size of area you're looking. You might also want to look into some sound deadening insulation for the common wall with the house to help limit the noise that the makes it into the rest of the house.

[Wayne Hendrix]

Hi Greg,

Anyone have any recommendations on who to contact about blowing insulation into the existing walls in the garage? Or is it better to just take the sheetrock all the way down and start again from bare studs?

Thanks,
Joshua

I have a family member in our area who is a licensed insulation contractor. I will send you a PM.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

I have a family member in our area who is a licensed insulation contractor. I will send you a PM.

Ah great! Thanks.

Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Logan,


On the wall you're going to put up I would elect for putting in double doors without any sill/threshold on them so when you need to expand out to the next stall for projects its easy to roll carts/tools etc around.
Ah!!!! A very good thought. I had been thinking just a single man door but doing a nice solid insulated set of double doors would be a truly great addition. Lots of expansion possible when needed. Thanks for the suggestion!


Since you'll be making the opening you should be able to find a pair of doors for fairly cheap at a Habitat ReStore of similar salvage yard,
I had planned to go to one tomorrow morning looking for the other door. I think I will change my plans. And still go but look for a great dbl door.


If it was me I would probably pull down the sheetrock on the walls...

If you're comfortable hanging sheetrock yourself it really isn't that expensive for the size of area you're looking.
I don't know that comfortable is quite the word. I think my garage is about 11' high. Might even be 12'. Somehow trying to hang that top sheet is a bit of a daunting thought. But I have brothers and a few good friends who would probably be willing to come and help.

I have been thinking about taking the sheetrock down for a number of reasons. I did surface mount wiring which has been working just fine. But as I have been looking at where to put cabinet space etc... the MC wire is always in the way. So getting it inside the walls would free up a lot of space for me.

With a decent scaffolding I could hang the new rock really pretty easily. I wonder if a big box store around here rents scaffolding.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Don Jarvie]

If your only going to heat 20x13 then get an electric heater. With a well insulated shop it will warm it up in 1/2 hour. The double french doors are a great idea. When it warms up enough you can use the rest of the garage.

In regards to the wall and resale value, you can rip it out when you sell the house. Not a big deal.

[Brian Tanner]

I am facing the same heating dilemma with my garage shop. Most of the time I am lucky to get out to the shop for an hour or two every couple months, but I usually find more time during winter due to holidays and such. I have been considering one of those LPG blowers that you mention since they heat quickly. I rarely know ahead of time when I might get a chance to get out there, so I need something fairly quick. However I am a little concerned about using those due to the CO, plus moisture. While working as a stone mason I found that LPG blowers would leave ice crystals on the inside of our tents but we never got that when we used the similar style kerosene heaters. Did you ever notice moisture buildup while using the propane burner? I don't want to cause any rust on my cast iron.

My friend (in Davis County) walled off his third car garage like you are talking about doing in order to convert it into a hair salon for his wife (sigh, what a waste of a garage!). It shares one wall and the ceiling with the house and wasn't too far from the furnace so he added a run of duct out to it for heating/cooling. I bring this up because they found that it wasn't quite warm enough during the winter months, so they ended up getting a little space heater to supplement it. He thinks that it doesn't heat as well as they would like due to the lack of a cold air return.

I have never checked into it, but I wonder if building codes will allow for a forced air duct line to go out to a garage like that. I know that doors and sheet-rock walls in attached garages have to meet fire resistance ratings to slow the spread of potential garage fires. I kinda have doubts that they would allow for an open pathway like that into the house. I haven't heard one way or the other, but that is something to check into.

[Jon McElwain]

How have you been insulating the walls? Were the open or sheet-rocked? Did you need a return air vent? I have been thinking about this since reading the recent posts and wondering if it is necessary out of a shop space. I was thinking it would be necessary but then realized that I don't really want too. I don't want to suck dust laden air back down in to the furnace system to quickly clog the filters. So it seems like I am going to need a push only system if I go this route.

Thanks,
Joshua

I have been insulating with R-19 Kraft faced batt insulation. The walls that were adjacent to interior living spaces had sheetrock and insulation, while the walls to the exterior of the house were unfinished - no insulation, no sheetrock, so I sort of had a blank slate.

I did not run a return vent because of the reasons that you stated - don't want to vent dust back in to the house. The only trouble that I later considered was the fact that now my shop was positively pressured against the house. So theoretically, suspended dust particles could tend to migrate from the garage into the house. Like I said, it has not been an issue so far.

[Darius Ferlas]

I have a forced air furnace for both heating and cooling in my home. I have seen other homes in the region that ran vents out to the garage. It made a real difference. I had actually thought about this process but worried about a few things. Given where the furnace room is I could add a vent without much trouble. But given it's proximity to the blower in the furnace I worry about all of the air rushing out into the garage. Path of least resistance and all. There was also the question of constantly heating and cooling the entire space when not needed for days at a time.

I had the same brilliant idea last year, so I asked a bunch of building inspectors. The answer was a big resounding NO WAY. In Ontario (as well as in a few States) it is definitely a violation of the building code as it does not conform to the required habitable space/garage separation.

Some people do it and nothing bad happens. But then, some people have a six pack, drive home and nothing happens to them either.

You may want to check this idea with your local codes.

[Mike Seals]

My shop is 30 X 50, four car garage dedicated as shop. For years it froze me out in the winter. My best addition for maintaining some heat was to use the triple insulated garage doors.

Last night with north wind blowing and a freeze warning, the shop temp never dropped below 60 degrees and I had no heat going. Before the doors, I would have been inside the house in a few minutes.