Was There Ever a Time For Great Asian Tools?

[Mike Shields]

I think we all could agree that in recent times there has been increase in the amount of Asian tools being sold in this country. We might also agree that these tools are not of the highest quality.

So my question is:

has there ever been a time when Asian tools were of significant quality, to the point that you'd consider one over a US/Europe machine?

Just one of my usual off-the-wall thinking's,

Mike

[John Coloccia]

The SawStop is made in Asia. The only reason anyone gets poor tools from Asia is because the factories are following the specifications they're given. If they're given specs to make high quality tool, then they make high quality tools.

[Rod Sheridan]

The SawStop is made in Asia. The only reason anyone gets poor tools from Asia is because the factories are following the specifications they're given. If they're given specs to make high quality tool, then they make high quality tools.


Bingo.

It's all price driven, pay more money, get a higher grade machine.

The importers sell what their customers will pay for.

You import a Felder machine, you get a Felder grade machine and price.

You import a Delta machine, you get a Delta grade machine and a Delta price.

Same for manufacturing, pay for a high grade machine, you'll receive a high grade machine regardless of country of origin.

Whether the Delta was made in the USA or Taiwan, it was a lower grade machine than the Felder because that's what Delta wanted to produce. If they had wanted to produce $20,000 machines they would have, in either location.

Regards, Rod.

[Jim O'Dell]

From what I've gathered reading on the various forums, quality has increased over the years. And it just makes sense. There is always a learning curve to making something, even if you have the opportunity to learn from others' mistakes. I guess the best example I can give, again not from personal experience, is that early on, some of the Grizzly product lines reportedly had some problems. Over the years, these lines have been improved to where they are very well built, especially for the money. I can't imagine a table saw better built than my G0691. The next one I would have considered would have been more than double the price, and I just couldn't go there.
As factories upgrade to new technologies and equipment, quality should improve. That is what I think has happened to Asian built tools. Although John is correct...they will build to what ever specs you give them. It's just another job. Jim.

[Jamie Buxton]

Japan is in Asia. Japan produces some really fine tools -- planes, chisels, etc.

And if by Asia you mean China specifically, China had fine tools while Europe was still in the Dark Ages. There are Chinese chairs from a thousand years ago that have fantastically fine and complex joinery. That work wasn't done with poor tools.

[glenn bradley]

So my question is:

has there ever been a time when Asian tools were of significant quality, to the point that you'd consider one over a US/Europe machine?

Uh . . . :confused: Now? Just as we have to pick the right tool for the job, we have to pick the right tool from the seller. . . . I started a ramble on just how we pushed ourselves into this current market but, couldn't get there without bending or breaking the TOC :D. Europe has there own bargain brands. Geographic origin does not assure (or lessen) quality in and of itself. :)

[Stephen Cherry]

Bingo.


Same for manufacturing, pay for a high grade machine, you'll receive a high grade machine regardless of country of origin.



Regards, Rod.

This is mostly true. What I don't like is when machines come from the same factory with vastly different prices. For example, fine woodworking did a test on planers (FWW 127) and the same base machine from different importers had a cost range from about 850-1250 for the ubiquitous Taiwanese 15" planer.

Since that time, much of the manufacturing has moved to mainland China.

[Dave MacArthur]

Your premise is wrong to start with. To lump everything together as "asian machines" is a complete fallacy and a massive wrong assumption, and attempting to give an answer based on that totally incorrect viewpoint will necessarily give bogus results.

You are talking about completely different countries, with completely different workforces, training, economic policies, infrastructure... Different factories, different business laws and owners, and as others have pointed out, completely different specs.

This is like trying to compare the Cadillac Escalade to the Chevy Chevette, because they both come out of America from the same company (GM), or a BMW with a Renault because they both are made in Europe. It's intuitively obvious that different specs result in different cars even when many parts come off the same manufacturing lines... Why is it so hard to grasp the same thing applies to tool manufacture?

Machines coming out of various factories now are quite nice; to answer your question, NOW is the time the quality on some machines from "asia" have a quality/value pricepoint that makes them more attractive than US made or Euro made machines. SawStop sells a zillion more saws than Northfield or General. Grizzly sells a ton of machines... obviously every single buyer thought that "tools were of significant quality, to the point that you'd consider one over a US/Europe machine"--they voted with their money and actually bought one. Case closed.

[Mark Ashmeade]

I think we all could agree that in recent times there has been increase in the amount of Asian tools being sold in this country.

Agreed, indisputable.


We might also agree that these tools are not of the highest quality.

Absolutely disagree. The Chinese are a nuclear power, with ballistic missile submarines. They weren't made with Harbor Freight tools. However, the sales of the Harbor Freight tools in the US may well have paidfor the boats and missiles.

[Mike Shields]

Your premise is wrong to start with. To lump everything together as "asian machines" is a complete fallacy and a massive wrong assumption, and attempting to give an answer based on that totally incorrect viewpoint will necessarily give bogus results.



Well jeez. That's quite a lamb blasting.

After all these posts, and especially this last one, I should clarify:

did the Asians ever make good quality tools? To further define: I'm not talking about Delta or Jet or any other US company contracting out their work. There have been Taiwanese companies that produced their own tools, such as Champ Fond.

So, my OP should have read:

Has a company such as Champ Fond, which incidentally resides in Taiwan which is in Asia, ever manufacturer a tool of their own design, that could compete with such quality tools (historically) manufactured in the US, and would be worthy of consideration for purchase today?

[Peter Quinn]

I have some Japanese tools that are quite nice. Japan is still in Asia,
no? And the jointer I use is made in Taiwan. I like it, works great, and I'm pretty sure Taiwan is in Asia too?

[J.R. Rutter]

lamb blasting - lol, that's quite a mental image

As others have said, it is a mistake to judge tools by the low cost variants.

[John Coloccia]

Well jeez. That's quite a lamb blasting.

After all these posts, and especially this last one, I should clarify:

did the Asians ever make good quality tools? To further define: I'm not talking about Delta or Jet or any other US company contracting out their work. There have been Taiwanese companies that produced their own tools, such as Champ Fond.

So, my OP should have read:

Has a company such as Champ Fond, which incidentally resides in Taiwan which is in Asia, ever manufacturer a tool of their own design, that could compete with such quality tools (historically) manufactured in the US, and would be worthy of consideration for purchase today?

If you look at companies like Trupro and Geetech, I believe they design and manufacture their own tools, and also manufacture tools for others to rebrand and sell as their own. While the companies here may ask for tweaks, the basic general design is theirs.

Yeah, I would take a modern Asian bandsaw over most older US made bandsaws, for example. Certainly I would take a modern cabinet saw from Asia over practically ANY saws made at any time, anywhere, save for the last few years perhaps.

[Jim Becker]

"Where" something is made isn't as material to the bottom line question as is "how" it is made. Quality transcends geography. But quality also still costs more than too many folks are willing to pay. In that respect, we all have a hand in both the problem and the solution. Being amenable to paying for/investing in good quality goods, regardless of where they are manufactured will provide manufacturers less incentive to take shortcuts.

Something I've often typed in these forums is, "The most expensive tool is the one you have to replace early and often." I really believe that and make my purchasing decisions accordingly.

[Ted Wong]

The SawStop is made in Asia. The only reason anyone gets poor tools from Asia is because the factories are following the specifications they're given. If they're given specs to make high quality tool, then they make high quality tools.

I think that is only partially true. Members of my family have worked for companies where their companies have outsourced to Asia (Taiwan and China).
When elastic back braces were first coming into being in the mid 80's and early 90's my father was eager to jump on the Asian manufacturing band-wagon and thought it would save his company wads of cash. He brought over a company sample product made in the USA to a Chinese manufacturing plant in China to have them sew up a limited production run. What they shipped over was unsalable and had major production flaws and was . . . well just plan ugly.
My sister in-law works for Medtronic and she had been working on having a company stateside manufacture some components for her company but her supervisor vetoed her source and pushed the job overseas to Taiwan. Two years later they still can't get the manufacturer their to comply with quality control specs.
I think an attitude of mediocrity pervades Asian manufacturing (excluding Japan) because the American public doesn't demand better. People are now used to going to Walmart and buying essentially disposable junk, throwing it out every couple of years and buying new again. And of course we have now seen the implications of this behavior on our economy and lives.

[Will Overton]

There was an article awhile back [I forget where] that noted the one move that Grizzly made, around 1997, that vastly improved the quality of their tools. They moved their own quality control people to where their products were being built.

I believe that most [you can't please all the people] folks who buy Grizzly products will agree that they are pretty high quality.

[mike rawl]

The tools by Makita, Hitachi, and Ryobi are good, if not great depending on what you are looking for. Their compound miter saws, routers, and nailers, are excellent tools.

I spent the last 5 years in Japan and I was always amazed at the quality of some of their "old iron' jointers and planers, and bandsaws. Thier planer/jointer/table saw combo machines are top notch, however the table saw does leave a little to be desired. The 3" bladed bandsaws are to die for. A lot of it was dirt cheap on Japan's yahoo auctions. I would take that stuff over just about anything ever made anywhere.

I think it would be more helpful to clearer about which tools you have in mind and which countries. Also, like others have stated if your goal is to sell cheap tools, the factory is going to make cheap tools. If you want quality you will need to pay for it, regardless of where it came from.

[Eiji Fuller]

The SawStop is made in Asia. The only reason anyone gets poor tools from Asia is because the factories are following the specifications they're given. If they're given specs to make high quality tool, then they make high quality tools.

IMO the fit and finish of the Asian Saw Stop pails in comparison to the US made new Unisaw from Delta so I wouldnt hail that as great example of high quality from Asia. That unisaw is really something though, just beautiful!

IMO grizzly is really making inroads on the reversing the thinking that Asian made = poor quality. They have many top notch machines at an excellent price point. Ive used some of them and figured I would buy but always found a much better deal on a nearly new euro machine. I may never get the chance especially when money goes so much further when your buying used machines.

[John Coloccia]

IMO the fit and finish of the Asian Saw Stop pails in comparison to the US made new Unisaw from Delta so I wouldnt hail that as great example of high quality from Asia. That unisaw is really something though, just beautiful!

Are you kidding? Of all the knocks I've heard against the SS over the years, not once have I ever heard anyone knock it's quality.

[Myk Rian]

I have a Steel City Hybrid TS. Darned nice saw.

[Eiji Fuller]

Just my observations when I compared them side by side. Delta wins hands down. And I know good tools when I see them. You would be hard pressed to find a single thing on the SawStop (minus the handsaver) that is as well made as on the new Unisaw. I looked them both up and down.

[Chris Mahmood]

Japan is in Asia. Japan produces some really fine tools -- planes, chisels, etc.


The higher-end Hitachi and Marunaka machinery is amazing and definitely on-par with European equipment. Unfortunately very little of it gets imported to the US. There are lots of videos on youtube of the Hitachi Supersurfacer in action as well as things like crazy CNC shapers that get used for production timber framing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM0wummBUo8

[Joe Leigh]

IMO the fit and finish of the Asian Saw Stop pails in comparison to the US made new Unisaw from Delta so I wouldnt hail that as great example of high quality from Asia. That unisaw is really something though, just beautiful!


Gotta agree here. Outside of the brake technology, there's nothing special going on. Not to derail the thread, but remove the brake and paint it green, and yawn...just another Asian tablesaw.

[John Coloccia]

Well, it's not derailing the thread at all. This is exactly the topic. Everyone I know who have used and played with both the Unisaw and Sawstop, at least the ones I know including myself, have said if you take out the brake it's still at least as nice as the Uni, and maybe nicer. I guess if the SS is considered to be "just another Asian saw", then there's really nothing that can come out of China or Taiwan that could ever be considered high quality I suppose.

[Rob Steffeck]

I'm still laughing at "lamb blasting." Thats rich.

[Mark Bolton]

Bingo.

It's all price driven, pay more money, get a higher grade machine.

The importers sell what their customers will pay for.



A little late to this thread but I dont really agree with this in the context of todays average consumer market tools or otherwise. I think comparing average tool purchases or average product purchases in general with a leap to Felder, SCMI, MM, Altendorf, an so on is not even comparable. It would be like comparing jeans bought at Target vs. something from a boutique in Manhattan. Its a small percentage of the market that is willing or able to invest more to get what they actually now perceive as less i.e. the ol' quality vs. quantity.

Unfortunately (for me) my perspective on this is that mainly US corporations have been, and continue to, work endlessly turning your willingness to pay even $0.01 more for quality into as little delivered quality as possible in trade for as much corporate profit as possible. This has been the trend for the last twenty years in the US and sadly the US consumer has swallowed it hook line and sinker. I have been using the "China has a space program, they can build whatever we ask them" for I dont know how long but the average consumer is at a point now where it actually believes big box retailers, albeit HD, Lowes, WM, Target, care about quality as much as they do profit when the fact is if they can dumb down anything to raise the margin a tenth of a point they will.

The sad part is, the hook and sinker are so far down in the gut that now in many cases all the alternatives that allowed people to "vote with their wallet" are gone. Either that or they are so drunk on cheap goods that they can get the monkey off their back.

I dont feel the rule squarely applies any longer where the consumer drives the market. The system has rolled over to where now the retail corporations steer, force, or market, the consumer into buying what they can best profit from, not what they actually want to buy.

For 20 years I have been using the tool market as an example of how manufacturers, and often times more so retailers-through-manufacturers, have been driving quality in a backwards direction while corporate profits are on a steep and steady incline.

We are now at a point where many of the quality tools in a given product line are simply not available any longer even if you wanted to pay more. Take Porter Cable for instance. They shoveled poop against the tide for many years and are now losing or have lost after being acquired by another company with a less than stellar quality report card for many of its years though its up now. Its now stretching up into brands like Jet and Powermatic with people saying that they are nothing like they use to be. Fast tracking castings and other components.

All to often now I hear our customers say "well, there arent really any options anymore so if you cant beat em' join em'". Translated this means the corporations have succeeded in eliminating or greatly reducing their competition by making it less convenient. Many of our customers see ordering online from a quality company as a pain in the butt as opposed to just whipping over to Wal-Mart, one stop shopping, and getting it immediately. It somehow glosses over the fact that they are buying something that will be junk in days, weeks, or months.

With the average consumer so drunk on junk it will be nearly impossible to "kick the habit".

Mark

[mreza Salav]

Just my observations when I compared them side by side. Delta wins hands down. And I know good tools when I see them. You would be hard pressed to find a single thing on the SawStop (minus the handsaver) that is as well made as on the new Unisaw. I looked them both up and down.

If you have "used" both and have adjusted both or better yet gutted out them to see what's inside and the engineering then your judgment might be different.
If money wasn't an issue, and there was no brake technology on SS, I'd still choose ICS SS over any other cabinet saw regardless of where it was made.

[Will Overton]

Take Porter Cable for instance.

I think Porter Cable is a poor example. In this case the corporation made a good decision [IMHO] by giving the consumer clearer choices about the level of tool they want to buy. This way we can compare various brands on a more even playing field.

They chose Delta and DeWalt to be their professional brands, Porter Cable a higher end homeowner brand, and Black and Decker their 'I'm not a tool person' brand.

They made a similar move 20+ years ago when they differentiated the Black and Decker professional line by 'painting' them yellow and calling them DeWalt. It worked then and should work again now. This time it is a slower transition which I don't understand. If you don't get caught up on labels, the company is still offering higher quality tools, just under a different name.

The new compact router is a good example;

http://blogs.mydevstaging.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/files/2010/08/00301.jpg http://blogs.mydevstaging.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/files/2010/08/0032.jpg

[Chip Lindley]

I think we all could agree that in recent times there has been increase in the amount of Asian tools being sold in this country. We might also agree that these tools are not of the highest quality.

So my question is:

has there ever been a time when Asian tools were of significant quality, to the point that you'd consider one over a US/Europe machine?

Just one of my usual off-the-wall thinking's,

Mike

To the OP's original question:

Wayy back in the '80s, Hitachi, Makita and Ryobi of Japan produced their iterations of resaw-specific bandsaws. The Hitachi CB75F is still produced. These were well-made resaws of compact and original design. No doubt the three makers cloned each other to an extent, but did not steal an existing design from the U.S. to do it. I give them credit for that.

I was lucky to find an original Makita 2116:
167251

The Hitachi CB75F is still produced and quite sought-after:
167250

Quite another issue is "Cheaper from China" as opposed to "Made in USA" today. I must remind you that several USA designs were "stolen" by Asian makers to produce their cheaper machines in the beginning. I am old enough to remember, and that is the issue that still offends me personally.

Times have changed to an extent. China can build a machine today (SawStop) that is top notch by all standards. Quite a leap from Grizzly's beginnings when there was still painted-over molding sand on the iron castings.

I, for the most part, will keep buying and cleaning up nice older "Made In USA" machines. Thank Goodness I still have that choice!

There are exceptions always. I use a Shop Fox moulder because I cannot afford the W&H at twice or three times the price. My first decent shaper was a WoodTek. A really nice-running machine. All my power feeders are of foreign origin. Those have always been accepted as Italian or Asian. But I bought none of my foreign stuff new. All were gloatworthy when I picked them up used!

[Van Huskey]

Just FYI is is lambasting, which is also kinda funny since it could be a cooking term.

The Asian specifically Taiwan/China built tools are made to spec and they count on the specs provided AND the importer keeping an eye on the production and forcing the quality issue.

My take is that it is a simple situation, if you pay they CAN build it, just about anything (anything we would use for sure) and at a quality level you are willing to pay for. The rub comes when you have to account for importing raw materials to Asia and/or the shipping cost of the final product. An American importer absolutely has to bring an Chiwanese product to market with a decent reduction in price over NA/European products due simply to perception and thus must spec the product at a lower quality level in order to leave this gap in price after all the associated costs of manufacturing thousands of miles from their market.

Now this example will not apply to everyone meaning not everyone will agree but it is the first one that popped into my head. The Italians have a reputation of making the best "hobby" sized bandsaws on the market at the top of the hobby price point. Grizzly has a pair of bandsaws built in Taiwan specced to compete with them. The Grizzly saws are quite good and although I have a few nits to pick with them they are certainly near the quality and capacity of the Italian saws imported here. If you compare the "negotiated" price of an Italian saw the Grizzly price is maybe 10% less, for me and I suspect a lot of others the 10% becomes less important than the idea of owning an Italian saw along with its tangible and intangible merits.

I suppose my point is if your plan as an importer is to bring an inexpensive tool/machine to market the Pacific Rim gives you the best chance of economic success so value leaders and volume based businesses will gravitate there for production, if you want to produce a closer to costs no object, "best" product you probably will produce it in NA or Europe, even if Taiwan/China could build it as well the loss in product "luster" coupled with my perception that the delivered cost of the product will only be a little cheaper.

[Dave MacArthur]

Well jeez. That's quite a lamb blasting.

LOL. Well, I was just trying to give a more precise and succinct framework to a question that was fraught with danger due to it's vagueness ;) Ermmm, no lambasting intended! ;)

[Mark Bolton]

I think Porter Cable is a poor example. In this case the corporation made a good decision [IMHO] by giving the consumer clearer choices about the level of tool they want to buy. This way we can compare various brands on a more even playing field.

They chose Delta and DeWalt to be their professional brands, Porter Cable a higher end homeowner brand, and Black and Decker their 'I'm not a tool person' brand.


I think DeWalt did exactly what they intended to with their acquisition of PC. They diminished the PC line in quality moving a significant portion of its public presence into a low end consumer line of tools. Delta got them moved into stationary tools where they were years and years ago. The PC part serves to elevate Dewalt which until recently has been known for construction tools but has been moving into what was PC territory. It was a strictly strategic decision, and actually a smart one, pertaining to market share.

Not counting the "real" DeWalt of old, DeWalt suffered many of the issues you elude to with regards to Grizzly. They went through a long period of quality issues early on and only in the last several years have they moved from that but personally I still dont like them in the shop or in the field.

What I was speaking directly to in my response was a business philosophy similar to, but on a smaller scale, that was in a recent post regarding Lee Valley. It spoke to someone bringing in an 8 year old square and LV crediting the purchase price out of good conscience. Now we cant expect all companies to operate at that level but gone are the days where someone is trying to make a better tool because its simply what you should be doing as a tool maker. Now the only motivation is if it will generate adequate profit. Profit is always in the equation its just how big a part does it play.

Mark

[Will Overton]

Now we cant expect all companies to operate at that level but gone are the days where someone is trying to make a better tool because its simply what you should be doing as a tool maker. Now the only motivation is if it will generate adequate profit. Profit is always in the equation its just how big a part does it play.



Absolutely! In any industry that is made up mostly of conglomerates, there is no or very little pride, or feeling of responsibility.

When banks serviced a community they had an interest in writing only good mortgages. But then they went national/global ... :(

[Chris Tsutsui]

The time is "now" for good asian tools.

Technology and safety is reaching higher levels than ever and the globe is working together to provide various levels of value.

Heck, If Japan wants to sell a tool cheaper they will outsource labor or ownership to America. :D

[Greg Portland]

has there ever been a time when Asian tools were of significant quality, to the point that you'd consider one over a US/Europe machine?You could make the same statement about US machine quality versus European machines (SCMI, Felder, etc.).

[Van Huskey]

LOL. Well, I was just trying to give a more precise and succinct framework to a question that was fraught with danger due to it's vagueness ;) Ermmm, no lambasting intended! ;)

So do you baste your lamb first or blow it apart first then baste...

I think you gotta blast first since if you don't all the basting liquid will get sucked up in the wool, or do you need to blast it first so you can baste it back together, or maybe it doesn't matter who cares if you beat it up before or after you blast it... :D I guess it just depends what baste you are basing it on.