Face Frame Cabinets

[Tommy Squires]

I have several long, straight runs of base and wall cabinets to build. My question is how to work the face frames. I recently read an article that suggested attaching the face frames one piece at a time on the finished case piece. I had originally planned to build the face frame as one piece and then attach the whole frame to the casework. I can see pros and cons to each approach. I will be working alone if that is significant. My cases are built in sections to make it easier for me to lift, attach, align etc.

For those of you that build face frame cabinets, how do you do yours? If you use the whole frame approach, any tricks to handling a 10' or 15' long piece and dealing with the alignment issues as the glue clock is ticking?

[David Prince]

Break the project down into manageable pieces. Say you have a run of 12 feet, then make 6 cabinets that are 24 inches wide (or) decide how you want to lay them out size wise. I would not build a single 12 foot cabinet for a kitchen. A sink base would be a minimum of 36 inches.

Build your faceframe separate from the carcass of the cabinet and attach it later. Pocket screws and biscuits work well for attaching the faceframe or you can just face-nail it in place if you aren't picky about nail holes.

When you have all of the cabinets done, just shim, level, and screw them together and fasten them to the wall.

[Bill White]

I build the FFs on the cabs as I go. Finish them, then install as a unit. Find it much easier to install the FFs while the box is on its back rather than on the wall.
Bill

[frank shic]

consider using a french cleat:

http://www.newwoodworker.com/frenchcleat.html

it'll make solo installation and alignment much easier. i would build the cabinets in smaller modular units as previously suggested unless you have an extra pair of hands (and a strong back) to lift a longer cabinet together.

[Sam Layton]

Hi Tommy,

I just finished my kitchen, except for the doors and drawers. I had one run of cabinet a little over 12' long. I built the first cabinet 8' long, which included two drawer banks, and the sink base. Then allowed 2' for the dish washer, then another cabinet a little over 2'.

I like to build the cabinet as long as I can handle. This is the way I build mine. I build the face frames first with pocket holes. Then I use the Summerfield tung and grove bits, and pocket holes to build the carcase. I build the carcase to the face frame. I build separate base/toe kicks.
By building the base/toe kicks separate, you can install the base/toe kick and level it very easy. Then it is just a matter of setting the base cabinet on the base/toe kick.

I do the uppers the same way. Hang the uppers before you install the base cabinets.

I like to build as few separate cabinets as possible, and as big/long as I can handle.

Sam

[Jamie Buxton]

I build cabinets in modules small enough for me to handle easily. I get each module as complete as I can in the shop -- all the woodwork is done, the finish is applied, and the hardware, doors, and drawers are installed. This approach lets me do as much work as possible in the shop, where all my tools are at hand, and where I have complete control. With this approach, the on-site work is minimized. Short time on-site is good for me (less commuting), and reduces the stress on the homeowner.

[Jim O'Dell]

In what little I've planned in my head for the kitchen redo, I will build 36" to 48" carcasses for the base units, then add the face frames after the bases are installed and leveled. I really think having the face frames as one piece makes for a cleaner and more custom look. Having the face frames on each carcass and screwing them together makes them look like store bought units. I also like the idea of building the toe kick units on each cabinet, then levelling them and the carcass together as installed. This allows for the carcass to be secured to the toe kick base with the fasteners hidden from underneath. Haven't figured out how to mount the uppers without screw heads showing though. Jim.

[Tommy Squires]

Thanks guys. I certainly will build modular units for the cases. In fact I have already started those. French cleats are interesting but not my issue right now. Sounds like most attach the face frame after the cases are mounted on the wall. This was my original approach. Just anticipating that across 12 or 15 feet of cases, I will have small variations that will complicate the glue up. I plan to use biscuits and glue (no nails or pocket screws) and was thinking about some way to temporarily hang the face frame (cleat at the top or ledge on the bottom) to make the alignment of the biscuits easier. Also using something temporary to attach clamps to until the glue dries.

[Roger Jensen]

I am going to attach my finished face frames to the cabinets after they are installed in the kitchen, as I didn't want separate face frames joined together.

My biggest concern is securely attaching the face frames during glue up. I've cut long groves in the face frames and cabinets (the way Norm did it for his cabinets) so I can drop in multiple biscuits along the edge. I'll use pocket screws where they won't be visible, but I'm not sure how to secure the face frame to the cabinets where I can't use pocket screws. I can't find a conventional way to clamp the ff to the cabinet while gluing.

Not sure if I can explain this well, but I'm thinking of making a long 1x1 stick with 1/4 inch dowels that will fit in the predrilled shelf holes. Then I can clamp the face frame to the cabinet with the clamp pulling the face frame to the stick inserted in the shelf pin holes. Again, not sure if this makes sense without a picture...

Good luck and let me know how it goes. I'm in the process of finishing my face frames, doors and draw fronts so my attachment problem is getting closer.

Roger

[Tommy Squires]

Roger, we have the same concerns. I have thought about screwing a ledger to the top and bottom of the case (to be removed later) and using that as an anchor for clamps. Thought someone who had done this would have solved this problem and have some insight.

[David Thompson 27577]

Roger, we have the same concerns. I have thought about screwing a ledger to the top and bottom of the case (to be removed later) and using that as an anchor for clamps. Thought someone who had done this would have solved this problem and have some insight.

Although I understand that you and Roger are concerned about the look of individual boxes, my opinion is that your concerns might be a bit unfounded.

Assuming that you use effective methods of milling the stock from which the face frames are made; and assuming that the carcasses are similarly uniform, then the "look" of separate boxes can be virtually eliminated.

When installing the individual boxes (FF already attached in the build process), you might want to consider using some "cabinet claw' clamps. These help with the process of aligning the face frames perfectly, and screwing them together in that alignment.

It's what pro cabinet installers do, and it makes the lines vanish.

[Steve Griffin]

I would need to know what style of cabinet Tommy is planning to do before giving advice. If they are "inset", the faceframe appearance is very important. I would assemble the frame on the cabinets as a single unit, and i'd rather do it in the shop or kitchen floor than after hanging even if meant I needed some help.

If they are overlay, it's often easy to cleverly hide faceframe joints behind the hinge side of the doors. There is no need for a continuous bottom or top rail. If so, build that big upper in a number of pieces with faceframe shop installed and just touch up the joints on the job.

In fact, if they are full overlay with tight 1/16 or 1/8" gaps, I'd skip the faceframe entirely and just apply 1/4" edge banding to all front edges of the boxes and not be concerned with the joints between smaller cabs.

-Steve

[Tommy Squires]

David, your answer is what I was exploring. Steve, the cabinets will have inset doors and drawers. David let me be sure that I understand. Let's say I have a 10' run of upper cabinets made up of three 40" cases. You would attach the face frames first with the inner stiles at half normal thickness and flush with the sides of the case. Then hang the cases and clamp them together using claw clamps and that would have the vertical joint disappear. Is that correct?

[Tommy Squires]

Steve, if you would build the face frame as a unit and attach it after the cases were on the wall, how would you clamp them to the cases if you were using biscuits and glue (no pocket screws)?

[Jesse Tutterrow]

Hi Tommy,

I just finished my kitchen, except for the doors and drawers. I had one run of cabinet a little over 12' long. I built the first cabinet 8' long, which included two drawer banks, and the sink base. Then allowed 2' for the dish washer, then another cabinet a little over 2'.

I like to build the cabinet as long as I can handle. This is the way I build mine. I build the face frames first with pocket holes. Then I use the Summerfield tung and grove bits, and pocket holes to build the carcase. I build the carcase to the face frame. I build separate base/toe kicks.
By building the base/toe kicks separate, you can install the base/toe kick and level it very easy. Then it is just a matter of setting the base cabinet on the base/toe kick.

I do the uppers the same way. Hang the uppers before you install the base cabinets.

I like to build as few separate cabinets as possible, and as big/long as I can handle.

Sam
I agree with Sam. I am defiantly a Summerfeld fan. Build the FF first with the groves and put toungs on the cabinet sides. I would build as long of a run of cabinets as you can handle. The only thing I differ with Sommerfeld on is that I build the toe kicks with long 2x4s (or 2x6s trimmed and joined straight). This makes leveling each cabinet easier.

--Jesse

[David Prince]

David, your answer is what I was exploring. Steve, the cabinets will have inset doors and drawers. David let me be sure that I understand. Let's say I have a 10' run of upper cabinets made up of three 40" cases. You would attach the face frames first with the inner stiles at half normal thickness and flush with the sides of the case. Then hang the cases and clamp them together using claw clamps and that would have the vertical joint disappear. Is that correct?

That pretty much sums it up.

[Steve Griffin]

Steve, if you would build the face frame as a unit and attach it after the cases were on the wall, how would you clamp them to the cases if you were using biscuits and glue (no pocket screws)?

I don't think I would do it that way, as I'd rather deal with one, massive pain in the rear cabinet than many small ones. But if I did need to apply a face frame to hung boxes, I'd probably use just a handful of biscuits, some pin nailing, some 3 way clamps and pocket screws top and bottom.

If you applied the FF on the 3 cabinets on the floor of the kitchen facing up, you could use any or all of the tricks above and/or use weights...

Here's a picture from Grizzly of those 3 way clamps. I have about 10 of them, and they do come in handy once in a while. You can use them as normal C clamps too.

In any case, I'd do a dry run assembly in the shop and fit the doors.

Davids suggestion is an excellent idea for overlay style, but for inset doors I personally not only would not want to see eye level glue lines, plus I like the bottom and top rails to be continuous for each cabinet run.

In fact, maybe there's a hybrid solution--leave off the bottom and top rails, but attach all other FF members. Preassemble the whole thing in the shop with dry joints at the rails, sand and finish, and then take apart for install. After install, touch up the joints with a little 220g and finish.

-Steve

[Jim Becker]

I generally span multiple carcasses with face frames and install them after the boxes are in place, level and secured. As Dave Prince mentions, break it into reasonable sections if the cabinet run is very long. When I do install, I'll use a few biscuits across the top of the cabinets to locate the face frames vertically while depending on glue for strength and a few 1 3/8" 23 gage pins to "clamp" things in place where using some form of "normal" clamp would be difficult.

[David Thompson 27577]

David, your answer is what I was exploring. Steve, the cabinets will have inset doors and drawers. David let me be sure that I understand. Let's say I have a 10' run of upper cabinets made up of three 40" cases. You would attach the face frames first with the inner stiles at half normal thickness and flush with the sides of the case. Then hang the cases and clamp them together using claw clamps and that would have the vertical joint disappear. Is that correct?

I would attach the face frames during the build process, not during the installation.

Yes, they'd be 'half normal thickness' if that is what your design called for at that joint.

I'd probably not have the stiles be perfectly flush with the outside of the carcass -- I'd want a 16th or so of FF overhanging so I could be sure to pull the frames together with the claws -- so that there is no chance that the carcass would interfere.

Also note that, since the final appearance of these joints is critical, you might want to block sand the sides of the face frames after finishing. This will help to make that line disappear. And be prepared to touch up the finish if needed, during the install.

IMO, doing it this way is a heck of a lot easier than trying to install a ten foot run as one piece. And this is particularly true when the run is "housed" on both ends. When it's housed on both ends, scribing a ten-foot-long cabinet is just about impossible.

[Zach Callum]

You can consider bumping the sink cabinet out a few inches. Not only does this look good, but now you have three separate sections to deal with.

[Tommy Squires]

Thanks everyone. You've given me some great ideas. As I am building the rest of the cases, I will mull over what you have said here and come up with a plan. Its such a blessing to have folks to talk with that have run into and solved these problems before.

[Jim O'Dell]

Yeah, lots of good information here. It is bookmarked for later refreshing of the brain cells. Jim.