Eucalyptus and Soap Test

[Kathy Marshall]

I read an article about a month ago about using a dishsoap and water bath for turning green wood and reducing/eliminating cracking, and have tried it a few times with some success. I first used it with some small green sumac logs that I had split. I filled a tub with a 50/50 mixture of costco's concentrated dishsoap and water, added the logs (bark was still on) covered the tub and let them soak for about 24 hours (the article says to soak for a few hours, but he was soaking roughed out forms). I set the logs on some strips of wood over the tub to drain and then I turned one of them and it turned fine (just wish I could remember what I turned lol), the other 2 pieces have been sitting for about a month. There is some slight checking (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/#) but not nearly as much as on the pieces I didn't treat. As a side note, the sumac, probably the bark, stained the soap mixture a dark red/black.
So the other night I started on a big piece of eucalyptus. The log was about 14" in diameter, I split it lengthwise and cut out a 11 1/2" bowl blank (12" is the max for my lathe) and roughed out a bowl to about 1 1/4" thick then dropped it in the soap tub. Pulled the bowl out today (it had soaked for 48 hours) and finished turned it. There was very little if any movement of the bowl, when I rechucked it it was spinning fairly true. Turned to final thickness of of about 3/8", 10 3/4" x 4" and no cracking. I've put on the 1st coat of tung oil (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/#) and I'll post updates as to how it's fareing.

[Roger Chandler]

Thank you Kathy for sharing this process. I was wondering if you used the Kirkland brand of dish soap from Costco, like I have read about?

I have not tried this process myself as of yet, but I want to find out more, and I am looking into the DNA process also.........seems that the soap procedure would be a bit less expensive and less volatile than the denatured alcohol.

I am looking forward to more postings from you as to the results you get long term.

Thanks again for sharing this! :)

[Greg Just]

I have been using this process for about 3-4 years. I do use the amber colored soap from Costco and mix it 50/50 with water in a container large enough to hold the piece of wood. I ususally store the mixture in a 5 gallon bucket when not in used and I will add more water from time to time as the water evaporates. My process is slightly different in that after rough turning the piece, I soak the wood 1-2 days, rinse it and wrap it in newspaper, write the date and type of wood on the paper (I forget) and put it on the shelf for a month or so. I have never tried turning one right out of the soap. This process has been pretty successful for me and the soap is a lot less expensive than DNA.

[Jim Burr]

Thanks for the tutorial Kathy, I don't know if I like the process or the bowl more!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Kathy thanks for sharing. I had intentions at one time to give it a go but just never have. I use either the DNA method or coat them whole piece with anchorseal like Mike Mahoney does. So far I have about 43 bowls in varies stages of drying (2 months to 7 months) with anchorseal and no cracks so far.

[Frank Van Atta]

I've been using dish soap for about 10 years, and have had good results with it. I don't worry about the discoloration of the soap; different woods will leave different colors, but I haven't had any color passed on from the soap back to a lighter colored wood.

The only drying method I like better is pressure cooking, but the available pot dictates and limits the size of blanks that can be treated. It also has a tendency to darken and harden the wood.

[David E Keller]

That's a beautiful bowl!

[David DeCristoforo]

The soap thing is interesting... gonna have to try that. But the bowl is beautiful regardless of how it was treated. Nice job.

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Beautiful Bowl Kathy, I had tried the soap soak sometime back using an amber dish soap from Sam's Club. I wasn't overally impressed by it so I have deducted it must be something in the Kirkland soap that helps the process. Please keep us posted on how this bowl does. Thanks for sharing.:)

[Reed Gray]

I am a fan of the LDD soak as well. Since I have never tried the twice turned method (turn thick, dry, finish turn), I can't compare it to the thin turned bowls I do. With the thin turned bowls, the only thing it really does is make the wood a lot easier to sand. No noticeable or measurable differences in drying time, movement or cracking.

The process was developed by Ron Kent for his Norfolk Island Pine bowls. It made them easier to sand out as well, which is more of a problem for pine which has a lot of pitch in it.

My guess is that it is the glycerine in the dish soap. I believe it does have a small amount of alcohol in it, at least in so soaps.

robo hippy

[Baxter Smith]

Great looking bowl!

[Kathy Marshall]

So here's the 1st update.....
One side is showing some very shallow cracks running parallel to each other (guess thats better than 1 big crack!). I've used some thin CA to try and stabilize them, we'll see how that goes. No major cracks but ALOT of movement! From the previous smaller bowl I did, I know that this wood seems very prone to movement, but at least it seems pretty elastic lol. It's pretty much gone eliptical and the ends where the pith would be have moved up. I added another coat of tung oil and we'll see what tomorrow brings. I'll try to post a progress pic tomorrow.

When I was putting on the 2nd coat of tung oil, I had it sitting next to the smaller bowl I did last week (adding another coat of wipe on poly) and the big bowl is a much brighter red which I think may be from the stained soap mixture. The smaller bowl is also red, but has more brown overtones. I'm working on a hollow form out of the dahlbergia sisso which didn't have any color in the heartwood (or didn't have any heartwood lol) and I'm really tempted to dump it in the soap mixture just to see if it absorbs any of the color...have already done the dna soak with it and it should be just about dry enough to finish, maybe I'll just cut another green chunk off the log and soak that....

[Reed Gray]

The color that leaches out into the soap will color whatever you soak in it. Black walnut is especially bad about this. I do have 2 soaking tubs, one for the walnut, and the other for the lighter wood like maple, myrtle and madrone. After a while the dark wood tub gets dumped into the sink or on an ant hill, and the light wood tub goes for the walnut tub.

I can't imagine log soaking to be very effective. Mostly because it would take a long time for the soap to soak in far enough to do anything.

If you are turning to final thickness, take some of the stretch plastic film (6 inch roll available at any office supply or shipping supply place) and stretch out a couple of wraps around the rim. About an inch on the inside, and the rest on the outside of the bowl. Do round over the rims of your bowl first, and STRETCH the film out. This has done more to prevent cracks in my green bowls than anything else I have tried.

robo hippy

[isaac rapelje]

Here are some thoughts on the different drying procedures using DA, soap, or other solutions. The dish soap, DA, and other drying method work on the same principle of osmosis/diffusion. Basically, the solution outside the wood sample is more concentrated (hypertonic) compared to the water/liquid inside the cells of the plant. Putting the wood in a hypertonic solution causes the water in the plant cells/wood to move outside the cell drying it. A simple experiment you can do at home is cut a potato, carrot, or other vegetable into a cube and put one in a cup of water (hypotonic) and one in a cup with a couple tablespoon of salt or sugar (hypertonic) and wait a day or two. After a day or two compare the differences, the one in water will gain water while the one in the salt will lose water.
As for the current drying methods I would suggest that you can use substances less dangerous and less environmentally harmful compared to DA and soap. The DA gives of vocs and contains methyl alcohol which is quite toxic. The soaps, while environmentally less harmful, are not great if put into the environment. It might be interesting to just try simple old salt or sugar and I think you will get the same results, since they all work using the same principle. You might need to find the right concentration but it should work the same and might be cheaper because if the water is left to evaporate you will be left with the solute to reuse. This is just my understanding I have not tried it. There are some other important practices that can limit cracks and movement, all wood has different shrinkages ( charts are available online), quartersawn wood is usually more stable, remove the pith, dry slowly, dry with some wood for added strength but to much causes the wood to work against each other and causes cracks. A little info take it for what its worth.

[Kathy Marshall]

:eek: My beautiful bowl is now a football with alot of character.
I think this is day 4 after finish turning. A few more, well maybe more than a few, cracks have shown up and the bowl has warped into a football shape. The pics don't really show the true extent of the warping. I know from a previous small bowl that this wood cracks and moves ALOT when green (this cracking is minor compared to another I've seen from the same tree). On the next one I'll try the DNA method and see how that goes, as for this piece, once it's decided it's done shape-changing I'll figure out something to do for the cracks. I still really like this wood and even though this one isn't going to win any awards as a showpiece :D I think it may have a place as a conversation piece lol.
btw...I turned another small piece of this wood into a small bell (approx 2 1/2-3" by about 2" x 1/8" + or - and finished with CA, no movement, cracks, shrinkage, etc., of course with all the moisture trapped inside who knows what it will do down the line lol.

[Ken Whitney]

The dish soap, DA, and other drying method work on the same principle of osmosis/diffusion.

Most (nearly all) of the volume of wood is made up of dead cells, so no osmosis going on there. Osmosis requires a permeable membrane (the cell membrane - not the cell wall), so while carrots and potatoes have cells with intact cell membranes, wood (mostly) does not.

The DNA method works through diffusion of water from the wood (higher concentration of water) into the DNA solution (lower concentration of water). I would assume the soap process is similar, but I've not tried it. Alcohol has a lower boiling point than water, so the alcohol will leave the wood faster than water and speed the drying process with, perhaps, less internal stress generated.

Salt and sugar solutions would only make saltier or sweeter wood. The salt or sugar would move from a region of higher concentration of salt/sugar (in the solution) to a region of lower concentration of salt/sugar (in the wood).

Methanol is nasty stuff, but there are brands of denatured alcohol that have very low amounts of methanol. The one I use (Sunnyside, sounds nice, doesn't it:)) contains less than 4% methanol. Ethanol makes up the bulk of the product and is readily metabolized by a variety of organisms, including us (thank goodness). Very, very little of the DNA actually finds its way into the environment.

Ken

[Reed Gray]

A buddy of mine (Scott Grasshopper Schmidt do you have a pic of the bowl?) turned a piece out of green eucalyptus. It finished moving at about 10 by 5 inches, and had these nice 1/2 inch deep scallops in the rim on the growth rings. I thought he had carved it. Nope, just extreme warpage. You might want to turn a bit thinner next time. Those walls look to be 3/8 to 1/2 inch thick. The cracks are from drying too quickly. Really, try the plastic stretch wrap around the rim.

robo hippy

[Dave Ogren]

I have been using the plastic stretch wrap since I saw Reed mention it in a post. Sure seems to work on preventing the cracks. The first time I purchased it at an office supply shop for about $15.00 a roll. Now it is being sold at a big box lumberyard whose name starts with an "L" for about $7.00 a same sized roll. It works, try it.

Good Luck,

Dave

[robert baccus]

Cathy, your "houston" bowl is a classic to be treasured. I have a few "red gum eucalyptus" warpies myself. One, obviously a tension wood piece, was roughed out to a seed bowl HF looks like a deflated football folded 90 deg. and it was fully waxed. We hafta work with nature in the end. Isacc, your words are the most fact based remarks ever on wood seasoning on this forum. I've been out of Forestry school for 50 years but have tried to keep up with wood technology research papers and you condensed it all very well. Like many subjects most of the info going around is subjective. Good luck