Bowls vs. Hollow Forms - why?

[John Beaver]

I am curious.

I like open forms (bowls and vases) so that is what I usually make.
I like seeing the inside of the piece and I carry some of my designs through to the inside. Sometimes the inside can be different from the outside and I like the contrast of that. I also find my audience understands a bowl and sometimes asks "what is that" to the hollow form. I do make both, but usually it's a bowl

Some people make primarily hollow forms.

What do you prefer, and why?

[Bill Boehme]

The last thing that I want to do is limit the type of things that I turn so almost everything that I do is uniquely different from what I have turned before. I have turned very few "generic" bowls except for things like the Empty Bowls Project which is the charitable event that my club helps to support.

[charlie knighton]

mainly hollow forms, but should branch out

[George Guadiane]

John, I know this is a bit long and rambling, but you got me to thinking.
Before I get into the stuff about me, I want to thank you for the topic, because it got me to thinking about what we/I do and why. I like that, but more, I want to say that I really like your bowls. They are not "normal run of the mill" work, you added an element that makes them more than "service pieces," you made conversation pieces, ART. And well too!

Here goes:
For me, it's about the "bad side." For instance, I made a salad serving bowl for my Cousin Dave, he got me the East Indian Rosewood, it was the least I could do. But I made a bowl because that was what he wanted. I have another similar piece of that wood that I'm working on now... It's a hollow form. Why? because the wood is so beautiful from every angle that I just couldn't bare to show "just the bottom." It didn't have a "bad side."
For some hollow forms. it's because I can get a bigger piece if I leave in voids, but even there, its usually because I would rather have the hole as an accent for the character in the wood.

I'm working on a cored bowl commission for Christmas presents. I'll have more than half a dozen bowls left over, and, well, when they're done, I show them too, but till they are, when I have a brake from bowls, I tend to do "something else." I've made a few boxes recently and I just did a little stemmed cup, I'll turn pretty much anything, but I also prefer the hollow form because I only have to sand the outside, because they SEEM more difficult than bowls (I know better, getting a nice flowing curve on both sides of a form that matches takes a lot of patience and skill).

But I think, most of all, I make more hollow forms because you can't go out and get a mass produced one from WalMart or Crate and Barrel.
I recently sold my best cherry burl salad bowl for $500.00 (I would never have taken less). I have had it for quite some time. The woman who bought it, just paid and was REALLY happy to get it.
She understood the fact that it was "hand made" by this human from a rather unique piece of wood and that if she wanted unique things, she had to pay the price. If I had been one of the "big guys," I would have had a $1500.00 price tag on it... But that woman is as rare as the wood in the bowl (15 inches across with no bark inclusions - in cherry burl).
Most people don't know the difference, they don't see the difference between what we do and the $49.99 one at crate and Barrel or the one for $19.99 at WalMart. Its hard to sell to that crowd under any circumstance, but with that kind of competition, its almost impossible... Also, I watch what people would pick up most often at shows, what they looked at and for. I listened to the questions and watched how they responded to the answers. People like a story, they like learning something new. They like taking that knowledge and sharing it with their friends. I had one woman stop by and look, asking questions and leave to see the rest of the show with the ever popular "I'll Be Back, REALLY." She DID come back and literally swooped into the booth, picking up the piece that another potential customer was honing in on and said "That one is mine!" After the other person left, she said that she was sorry for being abrupt, but that she was afraid the other person might take the piece and she really wanted it. I've not had that happen with a bowl (yet).
Not very many people know about the hollow form process, and I have to say that I find it interesting myself. I guess that makes me better able to have some enthusiasm when I talk about them. Galleries report that they sell more of an artist/artisan's work when that person is there to represent their work. People buy the person, their story, their ideas, their values when they buy "unnecessary" items like fine wood.

When I'm out "shopping" for wood at my various local glory holes, I do seem to look for hollow form materials first, but I don't pass up GOOD bowl blank materials when they are available.

Thanks for the topic, I could go on, but I think I'll give someone else a turn.:cool:

[Jack Mincey]

I prefer to turn HF's for several reasons. First I think one can be more creative with the shape on a HF. Second, I find it easier to show off the wood nature created in HF's, since I can change the shape to help in this area sometimes. Third, I don't sand the inside of Forms with openings less than 2" except as far as one might feel with their finger. Did I mention I really don't like to sand. I can usually get a cut on the out side of my bowls that requires very little sanding so a small opening HF is a snap to sand. Fourth, When it comes to selling, HF's give you more money for the same size blank. I usually sell a HF for two or three times what an open bowl turned from the same size blank would sell for. I think that customers look at HF's as more of a decoration and are welling to spend more.
This being said, I still turn about the same amount of both open and Hollow Forms. I try and let the wood talk to me and let me know what will work the best.
Jack

[John Keeton]

Since I have only been at this now for a tad over a year, my experience is very limited. I do think both George and Jack have accurately stated the market situation and maximizing the wood.

And, George has accurately pointed out that your "bowls" are not just "bowls!!" They are art objects, and far from the norm.

But, for me, it is a very simple answer - turning bowls is boring for me. I don't have the ability to core and do the beautiful burled sets that Jack does - and, that would be a different story! Or, the unique cherry burl bowl George speaks of - not your usual bowl. But, turning run of the mill, plain wood bowls does nothing for my interest level. And, I don't do this for the money for sure, so it is about fulfilling my creative needs.

HFs let me do that, and with pedestals and finials, it lets me switch between spindle turning and bowl techniques - again, keeps it from being mundane. There are unlimited design options for HFs, but bowls are somewhat limited - at least if they are going to be attractive.

Now that have hacked off all the bowl makers - please note that I did not say bowls were boring!!!!! I said - "turning bowls is boring for me!"

[Alan Trout]

I started turning as a creative outlet for me. I prefer hollow forms but do turn a few bowls. The market issues that George discussed are pretty accurate. However I did sell a 10" bowl for $500 which was one of my cast wood and resin pieces. The bowl was intended for me but they really wanted it and offered a good amount of money.

Its not that bowls are boring or even boring to turn. I find hollow forms more challenging and I have more fun turning them because of the challenge. It may sound weird but I do not like turning utilitarian pieces such as salad bowls and probably would not use one if I did. I consider most of the stuff that I do to be shelf pieces and like it that way. Even if it looks like a salad bowl it is still a shelf piece to me.:D

Alan

[Barry Elder]

John, I'm on the other end of the spectrum. When you've seen one hollow form, you've seen them all. (Also applies to bowls!) My lathe is too light to handle large chunks of wood and is too abused to last much longer. But I don't buy any wood; I was the recipient of tons of wood provided by God and two hurricanes. And it took many adventures to salvage most of the wood. So every piece that I turn may not look like a "museum" piece, but it doesn't have to be put on a shelf to be admired, it can be put on your dining room table, coffee table, etc. In other words, usuable for fruit, nuts, candy, salad, etc. I do have a few pieces of pre-2004 wood left, but I ususally give those away. Visitors and customers alway get to hear the story behind the bowls!

And let me say that I am a huge fan of the pedestals and finials that you use to enhance your hollow forms. You and your compadres do magnificent work and I support your every effort to elevate the appreciation of your work.

[Thom Sturgill]

I have been turning for about 2 1/2 years and definitely consider myself to be in a learning phase (may it last forever). I turn for artistic reasons and do not sell, but rather gift my turnings at this point. I try to expand my experience with every turning I do, and seldom re-visit a particular form once I feel that I have a degree of mastery of the form as there is always something new to learn. I have only done a few HFs and am looking to purchase some type off captured system to see if it makes it a little less nerve racking. :D

Right now I am more concerned with learning to apply 'enhancements' such as dye, pyrography, and carving than particular forms. At this point bowls, both open and semi-closed provide an easier 'canvas' for those.

[Robert McGowen]

I mostly do segmented work, which tends to lend itself to a hollow form or vase shape. My point of view may also be a little skewed, as I turn to sell.

I think from a selling viewpoint, as mentioned above, bowls seem more utilitarian, while hollow forms are more decorative. Thus, they command higher prices, even though they may be made from the same amount of wood. In my experience, people want to pick up and examine a vase and peer inside of it. They ask about how it was made. They know that they can not buy a vase like this at IKEA, but they do know they can get the 6-piece wooden bowl set for the same price as one bowl that I may have.

I think another factor is the skill and the tools involved. Most everyone starts with spindle work. They move to making small bowls, then large bowls, then a small vase, then larger vases. Each step requires more tools and more skill. People stop at or return to different steps along the progression and turn what they like to turn the most or are best at. My personal opinion is that a really nice segmented vase requires a certain amount of skill in several different areas of woodworking. It certainly requires the most amount of tools! I also happen to like to turn vases and do segmented work, so together, it works for me.

[Baxter Smith]

Very interesting question and I will enjoy reading the responses. Ones response(at least mine) is somewhat influenced by your situation; where you get your wood and where you are in your turning progression. Turned my first bowl about the first of December last year from a piece of spalted maple I got from my woodpile. Turned my first hollowform about 6 weeks later. Over the past year I have turned predominantly green/decaying/salvaged wood. All of it would have rotted if I hadn't chosen to do something with it. Even though I am dealing with wood that cost me little other than labor, I still am somewhat tied to the "I've got to turn it before it goes bad" train of thought! Its faster to rough out a bowl than a hollowform so I have done more of those. Not to mention my shoulders can be sore for a couple of days after doing a hollowform.:) Its also tough to fit together finials and lids with wood that is still changing shape.

Still haven't answered the question have I. I like both equally well for now. Though I have no interest in turning a simple bowl out of plain straightgrained wood, I still find it fascinating to turn a new species, a spalted piece or one that is full of color. I have recently tried a couple of once turned hollowforms. Something for a change and I get to see a finished product sooner. My year of waiting for things to dry in bags is almost up so maybe after I start returning some of my bowls and hollowforms, I will have more of an opinion one way or the other. For now I am happy with either and enjoy switching back and forth.

[Jim Burr]

I like the challenge of the whole spectrum of forms. I make wobble bottom bowls...no foot, regular bowls, weed pots, bottle stoppers, salt boxes and peppermills, and in the last few weeks, hollow forms. Some of it is financial as others have pointed to. I sell a large quantity of pens. 3 more and I get my new Jet 1642 EVS, they're also how I bought my Monster. Any type of turning can be a challenge and part of being a well rounded wood worker is learning...not necessarily mastering many different aspects of each craft. On the other hand, look at the work of some of the people here...would you rather see Mr. Keeton make a pen or one of his pedestal pieces? I'd rather see Alan Trout make HF's than a bottle stopper. Some people have a nack with certain aspects of turning, not that any one person should limit what they do, but they happen to be great at a specific segment of turning.

[Sean Hughto]

It seems to me that a lot of it is taste. For example, I believe that jazz music is a valid art form and that jazz has had many virtuoso/master muscians who have contributed to making masterpieces in the genre; but, I don't personally love to listen to most jazz. I'm not a fan or connisseur of the art form; it's just not my favorite flavor.

Similarly, most hollow forms I've seen, I'm not anxious to own to put up on my shelf. That said, I'd love to have a giant Ellsworth hollow form, for example. I like covered jar and box type forms, but as a general matter, eye candy forms on sticks with finials are not my cup of tea. Unlike many of you, from what I'm reading here, I lean hard to the utilitarian aspects of turning. I like bowls that can be used. Ditto with boxes and jars. I certainly try to make them visually pleasing, but as with my flatwork, I would never add an aesthetic feature that interfered with the intended utility.

I like the tradition of treen. I like the idea of folks using and enjoying what I make in their day to day lives. I like the idea of interacting with wood objects, be it a cabinet, a chair, or a bowl. Sculpture is great, but a perfect salad bowl is great too, in my book.

[Dave Ogren]

Thanks for starting this thread. I have only turned bowls, but am interested in hollow forms also. I think that hollow forms sell for three (3) times as much money because they take a whole lot more time to make. Am I right ?
My situation, I am wondering how to do a hollow form without a tailstock or bed (ways). Can this be done ?
I am thinking that a person has to be good at bowls before trying a HF ??
Two days ago I finished turned a cherry 14" by 6" bowl, from log to paper bag it took me about 2 hours, also no band saw. Am I getting close ?
I have also been told that before you get into coring you have to have done at least 500 bowls the wasteful way. Is that correct ?
Without a bed I think that I am limited to a Kelton coring system is that correct ?
If I have asked too many questions or gotten to far of of the subject, please delete my post.
Thanks for all you do to help beginners like me.
Sincerely,

Dave

[Bernie Weishapl]

Interesting views and idea's. Myself I like turning a variety of things from bottle stoppers, pens, ornaments, bowls, HF's, canisters, urns, etc. I guess you would say to broaden my experiences. I do like Jim sell most of my turnings which has paid for my lathes and most of my tools. When it comes down to it though I love to make mainly utility items though. One they sell better in my area and two is seeing people use them in their daily lives. We just got back last night from a week with the kids. We had salad with dinner 3 nights this last week in salad bowls I made for them 4 yrs ago. My grandson eats cereal every morning out of one or the other of two bowls I made for him 3 yrs ago.

[Jack Mincey]

Dave,
I free turn all my HF's just by holding my hollowing tools on the tool rest so yes you can do HF's without a bed or tailstock. I made all my hollowing tools except for the bent tool which I bought from John Jordan with one of his arm brace handles which helps.
I have kids that core out sets before they have 10 bowls under their belt, but I do think that a oneway system is much easier than the Kelton that you are limited to.
Jack

[Dave Ogren]

Thanks Jack !

Dave

[David DeCristoforo]

My own personal reasons are similar to John's. Although I have called myself a "woodworker" for most of my life I am a total novice when it comes to turning, having been at it for a bit over six months. I have made no attempt to conceal my respect for guys like Leo who have spent the better part of their adult lives at the lathe and who turn bowls and apparently little else. To date, I have turned exactly one piece that could be deemed "useful". The nested NE bowl "sets" are interesting but even these don't appeal to me enough to want to invest a lot of time in making them.

My reason is simple. I have spent most of my woodworking career making utilitarian items. Some of them were quite beautiful and I don't mean to imply that utilitarian work and "artistic" work are in any way mutually exclusive. But the work I am doing now is "straight from the heart". I am not imposing any demands on myself other than that I attempt to express my own personal vision and the things I have been making are the result. I am not worrying about whether or not someone is pleased with my efforts or if they will be sufficiently satisfied to not argue with me about the check. I have not had nearly as much time as I would like to do this work because I am involved with some other ventures that are demanding of my time. But the time I have been able to spend has been extremely enjoyable, even though most of it has found me struggling with my lack of technical skills.

[Frank Van Atta]

First, to the original question: for me the question of "HF or Bowl?" is usually answered by the size of the blank, although I will admit to having made a few large, shallow HF's as well as some pretty deep bowls.

All other things being equal, I prefer winged bowls.


Thanks for starting this thread. I have only turned bowls, but am interested in hollow forms also. I think that hollow forms sell for three (3) times as much money because they take a whole lot more time to make. Am I right ?

Nope. Most buyers don't give a rat's how much time you have in an item, just what the finished product looks like.


My situation, I am wondering how to do a hollow form without a tailstock or bed (ways). Can this be done ?

Of course it can, as someone else has pointed out.


I am thinking that a person has to be good at bowls before trying a HF ??

Why? A HF is just a bowl without a visible inside - from which it would follow that the bowls are probably harder to do.


Two days ago I finished turned a cherry 14" by 6" bowl, from log to paper bag it took me about 2 hours, also no band saw. Am I getting close ?

To what? It's not a race; the idea is to make the best turning you possibly can. Quality shows in the finished product; speed doesn't (except in some of the really poorly finished turnings).


I have also been told that before you get into coring you have to have done at least 500 bowls the wasteful way. Is that correct ?

Hogwash. Coring is a separate skill - and you can make either a bowl or a HF from most cores.

[David E Keller]

This is an interesting thread, John... Thanks for starting it. I tend to prefer hollow forms over bowls, but I enjoy a variety of turnings. As much as I like HFs, I can't imagine limiting myself to one form or another.

For me, the act of hollowing is a peaceful activity. I enjoy the process as much as I do the finished form. As JK mentioned, lidded vessels with pedestals and/or finials allow for the incorporation of spindle techniques which I also enjoy. Another minor consideration in favor of hollow forms is the size of the piece of wood... Highly figured and burled wood is much easier to find/afford in smaller chunks which lend themselves well to decorative pieces like HFs, whereas a 4 or 5 inch bowl is not terribly functional in my mind.

I've turned a few functional bowl forms that get used around the house, but the majority of my turnings are decorative rather than intended for any given purpose. I'll keep turning a little bit of everything, and I'll keep enjoying the variety of forms posted... I'm glad that we're not all drawn to the same types of turnings.

[Chris Haas]

I love the creativeness of HF's, but at the end of the day, i live in a 1100sqft house and there just arent enough shelves to put them on, not to mention time to dust them all. so i mostly do bowls and platters, you can invite someone over for dinner, and if they mention they like one, let them take it home. I have surprised quite a few people like that, its fun and they never ask what to do with a bowl or platter.

so hfs are fun, but bowls and platters are "useful" notice the quotations.

in my humble opinion of course

[Mike Cruz]

Me? Hehe, I make bowls. Strictly bowls. 100% bowls. Of course that is because I'm new at this. I've made two bowls. :D Would I do hollow forms? Sure. I like the idea and the shape. I like the option. I will hold off trying one (meaning buying the appropriate tools) until I see HOW to do it, and either get instruction, or learn from fellow Creekers. I hate jumping in blind. I hate wasting money on buying and trying. So, for me? Bowls until otherwise, then I'm sure a healthy mix.

[Curt Fuller]

After reading the replies so far I think I would fall into the David Keller way of seeing it.

What I find interesting is how little abstract, totally non-functional work comes off our lathes. I like a lot of abstract art in painting and sculpture but I've only occasionally attempted anything like that from the lathe.

[Don Alexander]

But the work I am doing now is "straight from the heart".


David;

to me that is the single most important thing a person can do and it definitely shows in your work ! :)

[Ken Hill]

I havent even tried a HF yet but man o man do they look sweet! I think the bowls posted try and cover both teh artistic/creative side as well as being useful where the HF is straight art and a reflection of the turners skills.

I also think people view each differently as others have expressed. My wife looked at some of Keeton's and others HF's and she sais.."Oh they are pretty" and that was that. She has seen some bowls and platters posted and been like "I want I want". Now she is straight up practical mom of two hillbilly so I don't expect her to start pulling dollars out of her mason jar to buy every HF, on the other hand, some fo my female friends have just about busted a purse when they see the same HF's and asked where to buy or how to buy!

I believe that if you are truly turning for enjoyment, no matter what you turn your work will reflect it. For me personally, it isnt about the challenge or the usefullness but a good balance. I want what I make to be appreciated and used in some manner and if I try some type of HF it may be more of a box type that can be used and allow me to try and be creative in design.

[Jeff Nicol]

It seems to me that a lot of it is taste. For example, I believe that jazz music is a valid art form and that jazz has had many virtuoso/master muscians who have contributed to making masterpieces in the genre; but, I don't personally love to listen to most jazz. I'm not a fan or connisseur of the art form; it's just not my favorite flavor.

Similarly, most hollow forms I've seen, I'm not anxious to own to put up on my shelf. That said, I'd love to have a giant Ellsworth hollow form, for example. I like covered jar and box type forms, but as a general matter, eye candy forms on sticks with finials are not my cup of tea. Unlike many of you, from what I'm reading here, I lean hard to the utilitarian aspects of turning. I like bowls that can be used. Ditto with boxes and jars. I certainly try to make them visually pleasing, but as with my flatwork, I would never add an aesthetic feature that interfered with the intended utility.

I like the tradition of treen. I like the idea of folks using and enjoying what I make in their day to day lives. I like the idea of interacting with wood objects, be it a cabinet, a chair, or a bowl. Sculpture is great, but a perfect salad bowl is great too, in my book.
Sean, With all the nice cabinets, tables and shelves and any other flat surface, there needs to be that peice of art or decoration to enhance the total outcome of the room or area. So that is why we have the simple and the extravagant in turned pieces. Some designers use rough utilitarian pieces to accent modern furnishings and other times the pristine HF with everything shining and incredible is the right piece in a rustic cabin. I turn what the wood says to turn, and a 4x4 blank is better suited for a small HF rather than a bowl. So it always is up to the turner and the buyer or person who recieves the piece as a gift to what it means to them, and each and every one of them strikes us differently at different times or in a certain location.

No matter we all love to see the curls flying off the lathe!

Jeff

[Steve Schlumpf]

John - great question!

I prefer hollow forms and not because they challenge me (they do!) or that they are fun to make (very time consuming when compared to a bowl) but because I can vary the form as my tastes and skills evolve.

[Sean Hughto]

Jeff, if it sounded like I meant that folks shouldn't do all kinds of turning, that's not what I meant to communicate at all. In a nutshell, I think we all have to "follow our bliss" (credit Joseph Campbell); our best work will be the work that turns us on the most. Creativity is a wonderful thing - where ideas and execution some together to bring something new into existence.

I too like to let the wood tell me to a large extent. And I've made some forms that approach HF's. When I get a steady rest (cough), I'll certainly make some more. I've only been turning a year, so my statements are just about what has turned me on so far - utility bowls mostly - and not necessarily any sort of prediction about what I may be into next month or next year. Just following my bliss.

[Dave Ogren]

I think that this has been a wonderful thread. Thanks Frank, and everyone for answering my questions and giving me insight into what everyone is thinking. I hope I can remember all it it and it sinks in.

This is a wonderful forum, I enjoy reading all of the posts but am not usually motovated to post. This one peaked my interest.

Thanks again, Keep up the great work.

Dave

[Skip Spaulding]

A great thread! I enjoy a little of all turning, Christmas decorations, pens, bowls, had a great time with the grand children making Harry Potter magic wands. I have done a few hollow forms and center pieces but guess I prefer to see my things used and not setting on a shelf collecting dust, that may be because I give most of my turnings away and lack the artistic talent that many on this site are very lucky to have. With my bowls etc., if they don't hold water they're ART!!
I truly enjoy looking at all of the wonderful creations on this forum and regret I will probably never have the talent or live long enough to try many of the fine pieces I see! Thank goodness we don't all turn the same thing.