Shelf pins in plywood

[John Landis]

I'm building a tall bookcase, and the plan calls for inset shelf standards. I prefer the look of individual 1/4" shelf pins, but the sides of the case will be mahogany plywood. Would there be any problems with shelf pins in plywood?

[Mike Goetzke]

I'm building a tall bookcase, and the plan calls for inset shelf standards. I prefer the look of individual 1/4" shelf pins, but the sides of the case will be mahogany plywood. Would there be any problems with shelf pins in plywood?

I'm currently building some kitchen cabinets from oak veneer ply and was undecided between standards and pins. I decided to use the pins but with metal insert sleeves. They sell them at Rockler and other woodworking supply stores.

[John Landis]

That thought occurred to me on the way home from Woodcraft after putting out $70 for a template, router bit and bushing for 1/4" pins...

[Steve Griffin]

My standard operating procedure is to always used sleeves with exposed open shelves. It is almost certain that as the years go by, raw holes will chip out some veneer.

I use 5mm for small to medium shelves, and 1/4" for thick glass, bookcases or large shelves.

-Steve

[Clisby Clark]

On a scrap board, bore some 1/4 inch holes on one side and some 5mm on the other. I know 1/4 inch is a tad over 6 mm which is only one mm larger than the 5's, but the 1/4 inch holes look craters on the moon compared to the 5 mm. I use the Festool router boring system which can be pricey unless you've already got the Festool router. However there are other jigs out there that let you rout the holes instead of drilling. IMO the routed holes are much cleaner than the drilled. Good luck!

[Jamie Buxton]

I've never seen a structural problem with shelf pins in plywood. However, I do have a visual issue with the column of holes if the face veneer is dark. The light-colored core material shines through. The metal sleeves fix the problem, but are rather expensive. Instead, I inlay a strip of hardwood where the column of holes is going to go. I use a dado head to make the recess, and rip the lumber to match the width. The strip only needs to be 3/8" thick or so, and you'll never see down to the bottom. I make it a tad thicker than the recess is deep, and plane/scrape it down flush.

[michael case]

John,

If your talking about Rockler's new "Pro Shelf" template set don't even bother to open the box. The set includes registering pins for 5mm and 1/4". However the set does not include the registering pins for the 7/32" holes you need to drill for the brass insets. According to the website and the staff with whom I spoke Rockler does not sell or make them. They sell the shelf pins, the insets, and the 7/32" self centering drill bits, but DUH! not the registering pins for their own house brand template. So its no good for any high-end work where you want the nice brass insets. So keep hang on to your receipt. I just went through this last week, but check it out yourself and let me know if you get a different answer.

[Rick Lizek]

Been doing the standard shelf pins in plywood for over thirty years. A very slight chamfer will eliminate any chipping when changing shelf pin heights. The brass inserts are a lot of extra effort and cost for a limited amount of return. Seriously...how often do you change shelf heghts???

Consider magic or Swedish wires. The least obtrusive hole solution...1/8" holes.
https://baersupply.com/baer/servlet/CyberVendor/category/G0038484/catalog/group.jsp/SELBY-FURNITURE-HARDWARE-CO-Swedish-Type-Magic-Wire-Shelf-Support-Fittings.htmlhttp://www.selbyhardware.com/a3.htmhttp://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Contemporary_Shelves/

[Rich Engelhardt]

The light-colored core material shines through.
Mix up a table spoon of instant coffee in an ounce or two of very hot tap water.
Use a Q-tip to daub it into the holes.
It both colors the wood and swells it just the right amount to make the pins fit real snug.
It's ("cured" coffee) almost as permanent as Inida ink, but without the spill or oops risk.

[Mike Harrison]

I've always used 1/4" pins and never had a problem with the veneer chipping, and I use hardwood dowel for the pins. If the material is a dark clad ply, I just use a little appropriate color stain on a Q-tip, to subdue the contrasting core material.

[David Thompson 27577]

If your talking about Rockler's new "Pro Shelf" template set don't even bother to open the box. The set includes registering pins for 5mm and 1/4". However the set does not include the registering pins for the 7/32" holes you need to drill for the brass insets............

I'm confused about this.......

If you're building a cabinet that will use the sleeves, then I'm thinking that you'll need to buy some sleeves.

And if you have some sleeves, I'm thinking that one of them can be used as the 'registering pin'.

Am I wrong?

[John Landis]

Thanks, everybody, I think I'll go without the sleeves. Apprreciate all the advice

[Lee Schierer]

I've used pins without inserts in ply wood before with no problems. Since the pins in most book shelves get set once and moved very few times I don't see that there will be a problem. Be sure to stain the inside of the holes so that empty holes don't stand out and make sure some finish gets into the holes to make the veneer edges a bit stronger.

[Jeff Duncan]

If you look around most of the cabinetry on the market is either plywood (high end these days), particleboard, or mdf. So shelf pin holes are quite capable of working well in these materials. I'd say plywood is one of the best materials for shelf pins. It's very strong, very stable, and drills well.

I don't personally like the look of inserts as I find they really highlight something you probably don't want to stand out....holes! To each their own though, so if you like the look go for it. I also don't like the look of 1/4" pins as again, why make a bigger hole then you need to? You aren't going to break a 5mm pin so I wouldn't worry about weight. Lastly I limit my holes to useable shelf space. IOW I start roughly 8" from the bottom and keep them about that same away from the top depending on the specific design and function of the piece.

One key is to use a sharp brad point bit and a high speed drill to ensure getting clean holes in the veneer.

good luck,
JeffD

[Erik Christensen]

I use the festool system which drills the pins with a router bit. I have done hundreds of holes in dozens of pieces so far and have not had a single chip or tearout. After case assembly I spray my dye and clear water poly and the holes are not that noticeable - certainly less visible than a brass insert. The spray poly seems to "toughen up" the ply, has not made pin insertion difficult and I have as yet to have the first hole show any wear or tear.

[Mike Goetzke]

I use the festool system which drills the pins with a router bit. I have done hundreds of holes in dozens of pieces so far and have not had a single chip or tearout. After case assembly I spray my dye and clear water poly and the holes are not that noticeable - certainly less visible than a brass insert. The spray poly seems to "toughen up" the ply, has not made pin insertion difficult and I have as yet to have the first hole show any wear or tear.

Note - many supply sources now offer the sleeves/inserts/pins in many colors and finishes.

[Dave Lehnert]

I have a plywood bookcase over 20 years old. Pins in plywood sides and never a problem.

[Noah Katz]

I'd put plugs in the unused holes.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

I used my router to drill 1/4" holes in birch plywood for my entire kitchen. No problems at all even with huge stacks of heavy dishes on them.

I also have a 10 year old bookcase of maple plywood with the same holes. One shelf has 170 issues of FWW, with no problems.

I personally don't even notice the holes, but as was mentioned, you can drill in selected areas only, or if you use a face frame, bring them forward so the frame hides them.

[Forrest Bonner]

John Landis: you have decided to use pin supports without using sleeves. What kind of pins are you planning to use? Rockler now sells an adjustable pin that will allow varying the height of the shelf corner a bit (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=22645&filter=SPIRAL%20SUPPORT). Nice if your shelves are not truly flat. They are only in 5mm now - black or clear -, but the mfg in Israel assured me they would be out in 1/4" this month.
Foirrest

[Steve Jenkins]

I've been using shelf pins for years with no problems. I tried the brass inserts once in a dark mahogany cabinet because the client wanted them. They looked like a big long zipper. haven't used them since.

[Steve Griffin]

I've been using shelf pins for years with no problems. I tried the brass inserts once in a dark mahogany cabinet because the client wanted them. They looked like a big long zipper. haven't used them since.

I feel like I misspoke earlier saying that raw holes often chip out. I suppose modern, high quality plywoods don't have this problem, and my bias is outdated and comes from some bad experiences with cheap ply years ago.

Truth is, it's probably more of a style question. For me, adjustable shelves are already a minus for fine furniture/cabinet looks, and the raw holes only make it worse.

When using sleeves, I space them at 2" to avoid the "zipper look".

Below is an example of a desk/bookcase I built for a client, and I just couldn't imagine just having raw holes for those shelves.

-Steve

[paul cottingham]

I used the LV threaded ones in ply. Worked great.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/hardware/page.aspx?p=40184&cat=3,43648,43649&ap=1

[Jeff Duncan]

Here's a little trick, instead of spending extra money buying adjustable supports, you can account for a little bit of shelf "unevenness: (if your using spoon style supports) by flipping one, (or even two if it's really out) of the supports over.
good luck,
JeffD

[Greg Portland]

Mix up a table spoon of instant coffee in an ounce or two of very hot tap water.
Use a Q-tip to daub it into the holes.
It both colors the wood and swells it just the right amount to make the pins fit real snug.
It's ("cured" coffee) almost as permanent as Inida ink, but without the spill or oops risk.
Another solution that I use it to use a water-based black dye. However, I finish the surface of the plywood first (varnish + wax, etc.) which repels the dye on the surface (allowing enough time to wipe it off). This technique would also work for the coffee solution listed above. Cut the pin holes before finishing (otherwise you'll mar the surface).

[Greg Portland]

You can buy different colors of brass insert (brass, white, dark, etc.). However, count the number of holes you'll need to fill! When I built my bookshelves I counted over 2000 holes which equals a LOT of inserts. The costs add up quickly (parts & time).

[Jim Summers]

The last couple of cabinets I built have the holes drilled into plywood. No problems to date( knock on wood ).

I also drilled before finishing and the dyeing process made the holes the same color or maybe a little darker.

HTH

[michael case]

David,

Yes, if the diameter of the the shelf support is the exact diameter of the register hole on the jig. They aren't of course. I wrote a review of this jig on the Rockler review site criticizing it for this silly short coming. Needless to say, they didn't publish it. They only publish good reviews and the payed shills that review for them.

[Howard Acheson]

None whatsoever. Shelf pins are used in plywood all the time. Just be sure to use 3/4" plywood.

[Jim Becker]

I routinely use pins in plywood cabinetry. I have a shop-built jig (NYW design) that uses a plunge router to "drill" the holes cleanly and efficiently. Since it indexes to the edge and top of the workpiece, it's easy to insure all the holes line up properly. I use this router drilling method exclusively now...I always had splintering with other jigs that employed brad-point drill bits.