Local company making a decision difficult for me...

[Mike Cruz]

So, as some of you may know, I got a 1981 PM90 lathe at an auction a couple of weeks ago. When I saw it, I though, ah, a couple of weekends, a date with a wire wheel and some sandpaper, primer and paint, and she'll be right as rain. Well, the more I looked at the bed, the more I imagined myself laboring over it. Then, I realized the positions I would have to contort into to get to the inside/under part of the bed...it is quite rusted under there, too, and if I'm going to refinish her, it would be silly to not do under there.

This led me to thinking I should take here completely apart and do a full resort. But ugh, the labor. Then it hit me, if I'm taking this whole thing apart anyway what if I took it to a paint place and let them sweat over it. I called one guy who I know that does sand blasting and painting. After a few minute conversation, he really recommended getting it powdercoated. So, I called my local (10 minutes from my house...go figure) powdercoating shop. They just came by to take a look and give me an estimate.

If I take it all apart and bring it to them, $250 for the bed alone, $500 for the WHOLE LATHE!

I really don't want to spend that much/don't have that to spend on the lathe. But it would probably cost me close to $100 for wire wheels, sandpaper, primer and paint anyway. And powder coating would be a much more durable finish.

Ugh, I was hoping they would give me some WAY out of the realm of possibility price. Instead, they gave me a juuust out of reach of "I'll have it to you Monday" price.

I told 'em I'd get her up and running, see what I can save up and call 'em in the spring. They thought it was the right plan.

But I want her shiny and new looking again....now...:o

[Mike Davis NC]

Have you priced a small sand blaster? Do you have a paint sprayer?

Take a look at DuPont Imron catalyzed polyurethane automotive finish.

Not that hard to apply, costs much less than powder coating, less specialized equipment and lasts almost as well. Plus you'll have the sand blaster for future projects.

Just don't let the paint harden in your sprayer, you'll never get it out.

[Erik Christensen]

I would definitely pay somebody to sand - or even better bead blast it. Bead blasting only removes rust and does nothing to a solid surface. that is the part of the process that is nasty dirty & dangerous (you really do not want to mess with the silica dust from sand blasting).

painting is the easy part and spray can primer and appliance enamel would give you a great looking finish in a lot of colors

only down side is you do lose out on a good excuse to buy a new tool :D

[Mike Cruz]

The major issue is that I can have it totally top to bottom sandblasted and painted for about $500. That means no refinishing labor. I'm not really looking to save a buck. If I were, I would DEFINATLY just do it all myself. Wire wheels and sandpaper will take everything off. Primer and paint from the BORG will look great. But there is a lot of time, both labor time and drying/inbetween time that goes into it. Also, I don't have anywhere indoors to do any of it. So, I would have to take it outside, and hope to have a straight week of great weather and low humidity...good luck around these parts...

The other problem is that if I spend $500 refinishing it, I might start getting close to getting over its "value". $300 for the lathe, $200 for the VFD and poteniometer, $100 for the digital tach (okay, I didn't have to do that one...I just really wanted to...so let's not count that ;)) and $500 for refinishing...I suppose I could get $1000 for her IF I needed to sell her. But I also wasn't planning on spending a grand on a lather, either.

Ugh, I feel like I'm spiraling...down, down, down, into a vortex....

[Walter Plummer]

In my experience powder coating does not live up to it`s hype. it is still a paint job. Go with a good automotive paint with a catalyst. I did a lot of the sandblasting when we restored our Oliver jointer. That is definitely the part to sub out. Think big mess, then double it...maybe triple it.

[Van Huskey]

If it were me I would farm out the media blasting just due to the time and mess, it isn't like you can get the parts in a blast cabinet that you are going to actually buy.

Painting is just a how much do you want to spend. Though not super durable a rattle can paint job cab look pretty good, cost less than $50 and can be touched up very easily.

[Joe Scarfo]

i tore apart my '52 unit and had her blasted then powder coated red to match my chevy truck. Then I had all the knobs and cranks chromed...

It's beautiful....

I paid like $150 for the blasting and the powdercoating.... that was about 10 years ago.

Good luck
Joe

[Philip Rodriquez]

Have you checked with some body shops or some local machine shops? If it were me, I'd sub out what I didn't want to to.

[Larry Fox]

If it were me (and it isn't), I would look into getting it bead blasted, paint it with a rattle can, reassemble and start making stuff. If I could not get it blasted for < $100 I would go the wire-wheel route and give it best effort. $500 is a hefty price to pay for what amounts to a prettier version of the tool you already have. I would buy some turning tools with the $500. If after using it you really hate the look you can always go the $500 refinish route.

[John Coloccia]

Personally if it were me, and I know it's not, but if it were, I would do the minimum I could to turn it into a functional lathe and forget about the rest. I'd just get the bed smooth and lubed so things slide well and then get to turning on it. You can always restore it later. The wood's not going to care about a little rust. I'd probably spray it down with a nice rust preventative to keep it from getting worse since you have exposed areas now, and I'd have a blast enjoying my new lathe without turning it into yet another project.

And then I'd decide later on if I really want to tear the thing apart and spend time and money restoring it.

Unless you like that sort of thing, and there are plenty of people that love restoring for the satisfaction of doing it. :D

[John Coloccia]

If it were me (and it isn't), I would ...


Personally if it were me, and I know it's not, but if it were, I would ...

Well, at least two of us have our identities straight! :D

[Jim Heffner]

I read your post about the lathe and here is another idea. Since you will be doing a dis- assembly anyway, why not go the electrolysis route of rust
removal. I have tried it, like it and it works great for me! If you need any info for this method of rust removal, go to OWWM.com, type in electrolysis, or rust removal and you'll find everything you ever needed to know on how to do it and do it right! The process is very in- expensive, simple, and almost no work to it, easy enough for anyone to do. The hardest part is finding a plastic container big enough for the lathe bed to sit in. A good thing to use is a
child's plastic swimming/ wading pool, they are cheap and can be bought
at K Mart or Wal mart. Hope this idea works well for you...it did for me!
Jim

[Mark Bolton]

Wire wheels and sandpaper will take everything off.

Just so you know, if you talk to any body man (likely the guy you priced it to), wire wheels don't remove rust. They simply blast off the loose stuff and then smear the area with metal either from the base material or the wire wheel itself. It makes it look all shinny like there is no rust but its still there.

If you wire wheel something rusty and paint it it will always rust through sooner or later because the rust is still under there underneath all your finish dollars.

The only way to get rid of the rust is to sand, grind, blast, or treat, it away.

Mark

[Mike Heidrick]

Build a tub and submerge it in evaporust. Then wipe off, prime, and paint her up.

[Garrett Ellis]

Have you checked for any other places that blast/powdercoat? $500 seems like a lot especially if you are taking it to them in pieces

[Mike Cruz]

Actually, the $500 would be for sandblasting AND powdercoating. Does that still seem high to you?

[Mike Cruz]

You guys are great. I can always count on a full spectrum of answers.

Not sure if I said it, or made it clear, but no matter what I do with the finish, it WILL wait until Spring, at least. If I go the route of doing it myself, between my arms and the weather, this year is shot. If I take the whole thing to get powder coated, I would have to put aside the money somehow, which would take time, and with the holidays and ski season coming, this year and winter are shot.

So, John, and others that think similarly, I will most likely end up setting her all up, and using her this winter...as she is.

Good to hear about other/different methods too. And that the wire wheel idea isn't the best. Maybe the compromise for the wallet is to take it apart, take the parts to a sandblaster, and finish it myself. That way, I would truely get the rust off, and get her painted up 'n pretty for the least cost/effort.

For those suggesting the bath, picture my wife looking out a house window seeing me do this... I'd rather take it somewhere when she's not around to see anything. Not that I'd be hiding this from her, but the less she SEES it, the less she thinks about it. ;) It's like the old saying...there is nothing that will drive a woman more crazy than seeing a man at rest. :rolleyes:

I also like the thinking that the more I can save on the refinishing, the more tools I can buy to use the lathe.

[Dan Hintz]

Mike,

We talked about powdercoating it while I was there, didn't we... ;)

I have a guy in Sykesville that does a great job, but considering the size of the entire unit (I'm assuming you are going to do the base, as well), $500 is about in line with what I would expect. If you stick to the lathe itself (motor cover and bed), I would expect about half of that. The guy I mentioned blasted and coated the rear subframe on my S2000... just as big, but not as heavy. I think I paid <$300 for it.

If you want to go the inexpensive route, you're going to need to do the work yourself. If you wanted this thing to look like a princess via someone else's work, you would have been better off going with a new machine.

[Mike Cruz]

Yeah, I think we may have discussed it. Don't really remember, I was paying attention to my rabbit ears...:rolleyes:

Seriously, I really had no intention of going the route of ANY body else doing the work, but me. But the more I sat and looked at it, with my spare time and all, the more daunting the task started to look. That is why I called the company that has painted one of our trailers, and did touch up paint on another's frame. I knew he sandblasted and just called to pick his brain. He quoted me about $100 for the bed alone (all I had asked about), and then I asked him about paint, for S's and G's. He quoted about $80 for primer and $80 for painting. So, the total would be about $260. HE was the one that suggested powder coating because he thought it would be a more durable finish. That is what got me on this embarkment.

Trust me, I would love to not spend the money on refinishing. I'm leaning that way right now. I wasn't in the market for a $1000 lathe. I wanted to spend about $500 and that is where I am right now. Ok, $600 with the digital tach :D. Right now, I got what I was looking for. I really don't want to overstep my budget on this. And think I'd be better off leaving her rusted up.

Thanks, all, for pulling my heads out of the clouds and getting me back into reality.

So, now how do I spend that $500? (That I don't really have to spend) :rolleyes:

[Peter Quinn]

If it were me, and I'm almost 90% certain it is not, I would scrape off all the rust I could from the hidden parts in ten minutes with a wire brush, then coat it with some of that rust neutralizer. I would use naval jelly and emory cloth on the raw iron business parts to get them clean, knock down the painted parts that you can see with out doing the limbo with some synthetic wool or a wheel, paint it with a rattle can in the closest color I could find to PM yellow, and start turning wood.

$500 buys a lot of tooling and lumber, so unless the money tree and the spare time tree both bloom very strong this spring I'd skip the fuss and use that thing hard. If it were me. Which we may have established it is almost certainly not. I do love old machines, but I'm not what you would call a restorer. I won't get any tools powder coated that I'm not planning on leaving under my deck full time, and I'm not planning on leaving any tools under my deck, so thats out by default! I am way too lazy to spend my precious wood working time giving an old iron machine the high buff, though I do love seeing pics from guys that do these fanatical restorations.

I'm not pretty, my shops not pretty, and mostly my tools are not pretty. You don't need pretty tools to do good work, and I'll swear that some of the most beautiful things I have seen made come from some of the roughest looking tools and shops.

[Craig Carpenter]

Personally if it were me, and I know it's not, but if it were, I would do the minimum I could to turn it into a functional lathe and forget about the rest. I'd just get the bed smooth and lubed so things slide well and then get to turning on it. You can always restore it later. The wood's not going to care about a little rust. I'd probably spray it down with a nice rust preventative to keep it from getting worse since you have exposed areas now, and I'd have a blast enjoying my new lathe without turning it into yet another project.

And then I'd decide later on if I really want to tear the thing apart and spend time and money restoring it.

Unless you like that sort of thing, and there are plenty of people that love restoring for the satisfaction of doing it. :D




Ding Ding Ding, John wins the cuppy doll! Sounds as if you're torn between a rock and a dollar bill. Take Johns advice and get it functional. I would NOT use a wire wheel unless cleaning some welds up. (hate those little wires peppering me) Having it blasted while it is taken apart is the only proper way to go. With the economy as it is, I would be willing to bet you could post a craigslist add for a blaster job. There are guys with portable units that might do it for a C-note if it's sitting ready to be blasted. (lots of hungry people in this economy) After it's blasted, go down to your local Sherwin Williams and pick up a quart of epoxy primer and epoxy paint to spray her with. It's well worth it for the final product. It should not be that labor intensive and you'll also learn a lot about your lathe to boot. I stripped my boat trailer apart two years and ago, borrowed a portable blaster from a friend, primed, painted, back together and it's beautiful!

I wish you luck!

If all else fails, screw and glue some 1/4" birch on it and paint that.

[Carroll Courtney]

Either you enjoy doing it or you don't.If you want a plug and play then you should have keep shopping.But:) if you do take on this wonderful project(no one said wwing is easy or restortation work) you will have one of the best lathes there is for little money total.That lathe was widely sold to school dists to withstand being abuse,its built like a Sherman tank.Look at what Oneways cost or a new PM lathe cost w/VS.Like spending pennys on a dollar.Yours make be better.Go for it and enjoy----Carroll

[Mike Cruz]

Thank you both, Peter and Carroll, for your posts. Peter, you made my day. GREAT post. Peter, now you have me wantin' to make 'er purdy again.

I think I'm gonna stick with my plan to get her up and running, play with her all winter, and tackle as much of the job myself as I can in the Spring, whether that be getting her sandblasted, then painting myself, or doing the whole facelift solo.

I'll sleep much better...Peter, you're a hoot. Of course, I'm only 90% sure of that...;)

[Dan Hintz]

Think of it this way... even if you leave it as is for the season and use it until time permits for a restore, it's not like the rust is going to get much worse. If you really get a bug up there, do as suggested... remove as much rust as you can, paint with a rust-stop primer and leave it at that point. A sandblast later to remove the primer for powdercoat isn't a big deal.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Powder Coat is not near what it's cracked up to be. Its main advantage is that its application involves little or no VOC.

"Edge Retention" is the big problem. i.e. the charge that attracts the paint keeps it from building up in corners or edges.
Eventually it rusts at the edges/corners. My advice is to stick with good old fashioned oil base and a brush.

[Gary Herrmann]

You might be surprised at how quickly sandpaper will remove rust. You can also take the banjo to a good paint store and get them to match the paint.

I've had to do minor rehabs a couple times. It's what keeps me from tumbling down the OWWM slope. I don't want to spend what little shop time I have rehabbing arn. Hand tools don't count, right?

The narrow 90 degree turn to my basement also helps me avoid 1000+ pound machines.

I think, in the long run, you'll enjoy the lathe more if you clean it up, but that's just (88.3% certainty) me.

As someone else said, PM90s are beasts. You'll get a lot of use out of it. If I hadn't already bought the 3520b, I probably would have bought the 90 I saw last year.

[Frank Drew]

If it were me, and I'm almost 90% certain it is not, I would scrape off all the rust I could from the hidden parts in ten minutes with a wire brush, then coat it with some of that rust neutralizer. I would use naval jelly and emory cloth on the raw iron business parts to get them clean, knock down the painted parts that you can see with out doing the limbo with some synthetic wool or a wheel, paint it with a rattle can in the closest color I could find to PM yellow, and start turning wood.

$500 buys a lot of tooling and lumber, so unless the money tree and the spare time tree both bloom very strong this spring I'd skip the fuss and use that thing hard. If it were me. Which we may have established it is almost certainly not. I do love old machines, but I'm not what you would call a restorer. I won't get any tools powder coated that I'm not planning on leaving under my deck full time, and I'm not planning on leaving any tools under my deck, so thats out by default! I am way too lazy to spend my precious wood working time giving an old iron machine the high buff, though I do love seeing pics from guys that do these fanatical restorations.

I'm not pretty, my shops not pretty, and mostly my tools are not pretty. You don't need pretty tools to do good work, and I'll swear that some of the most beautiful things I have seen made come from some of the roughest looking tools and shops.

I'm right in line with Peter's thinking.... except for the color. :D

[John Coloccia]

Ding Ding Ding, John wins the cuppy doll!

Thousands of dollars spent throwing balls at milk bottles and THIS is what I win a Kewpie doll for? LOL

[Marty Paulus]

Powder Coat is not near what it's cracked up to be. Its main advantage is that its application involves little or no VOC.

"Edge Retention" is the big problem. i.e. the charge that attracts the paint keeps it from building up in corners or edges.
Eventually it rusts at the edges/corners. My advice is to stick with good old fashioned oil base and a brush.

That is not my experience at all. I refinished the exhaust manifolds on my boat engines about 3-4 years ago. Sandblasted them, solvent bath and then powder coated. All done in my garage :D. The hard part was getting them into the oven to bake without touching the powder. They weigh about 40#. They are all still rust free despite the fact that I remove them several times a year to work on the boat or the engines. They have been bumped and banged in the boat and are frequently used as a step with climbing down into the engine compartment. They still look as good as they did coming out of the oven after cooling. The only problem with PC is the fact that is has to be baked usually up to 400F. This may cause issues in some parts in the fact it may releive some stress in the parts and cause them to warp. I have been lucky so far. The larger the part the more difficlut it is to find a way to heat the part to bake off the powder.

And sandblasting/bead blasting is THE way to clean metal parts. So much easier to get into all the cracks and such.

My advice would be to at the very least spring for the sand blast cleaning.

[Dan Hintz]

Marty,

I did some of the high-temp ceramic coating on my S2000's header heat shields... still looks like chrome after years of being abused under the hood.

[Marty Paulus]

Dan,

I wish I would have done more searching for powder coat when I did my engines. I would like to have done more parts in powder rather then the rattle can paint...:rolleyes:

That being said, the next brake job I do will have the parts taking a trip through the oven. I hate looking through the wheels and seeing rusty drums and rotors :mad:

[Dan Hintz]

If you do any racing, I would suggest against the powdercoat... you can turn it brown pretty quickly if you're a brake monster.

[Mike Cruz]

Ya know, I wouldn't mind painting it yellow, but it just wouldn't be period. It is a 1981 model. Those are green with a white stripe. To make it yellow would be like painting a Fastback magenta. Not saying it would look bad, just saying that it might cause some head scratching...

[Chip Lindley]

The fact this lathe is a Powermatic 90 (Made in USA) may in fact make all this hubbub worthwhile. For $300 you got a great bargain Mike. Other add-ons were your decision and not really part of the PM90 per'se. You really have a very small amount investmented in a classic heavy-duty wood lathe.

I cannot afford to pay others to restore my bargains. I do not insist on show-room new anyhow. It is a working machine; not a museum piece! I live in the country and can sandblast to my heart's content. It only adds sand to all this Missouri limestone! Big Deal! If you live in close proximity to neighbors in a very urban setting, my condolences.



For those suggesting the bath, picture my wife looking out a house window seeing me do this... I'd rather take it somewhere when she's not around to see anything. Not that I'd be hiding this from her, but the less she SEES it, the less she thinks about it. It's like the old saying...there is nothing that will drive a woman more crazy than seeing a man at rest.

That part really bothers me. There was a time when a Man's Home Was His Castle? If spending $500 keeps the place all tidy, and keeps SWMBO happy, I suppose it is an excellent (aka necessary) investment!

You have all Winter to mull this over. Make something to sell with your rusty yet functional PM90. By Spring you might have an extra $500...but don't let her see where you hide the coffee can! Sheesh!

[Mike Cruz]

Chip, while having a point, here is my dilema/fortune... My wife makes the money, and I take care of the farm. While I'm not discounting my efforts into the relationship and our lives, she makes not only ALL the money, but also way more than I would make even if I were working. My expenditures really ought to be in line with my potential income or what what I do is worth. I have to admit that spending $500 is "out of my budget if I were working a 9 to 5 at woodworking".

[Chip Lindley]

Mike, I can relate to where you both are coming from. For most of 37 years I made ALL THE MONEY, and She has certainly done her part to tell me how to spend it!

[Don Jarvie]

Mike, don't waste your money making it look pretty even though your intentions are good.

To echo what some have said. Take it apart, clean all of the parts as best you can, spray paint it, wire wheel all of the nuts, screws handles, etc and put it back together.

It should take you a week tops and it will look great. Rustoleum primer dries in 1/2 hour so you can prime and paint the same day. If you still have good weather put the parts outside in the sun and they dry faster.

[Mike Cruz]

Thanks for your input, Don. Don't worry, I don't think the money will get wasted on a MAJOR resotoration. I got a little caught up in the total restoration thing, but my cyber conscience (SMC) brought be back to earth. I'll one way or another clean her up, but won't go overboard on the $.

What made this a borderline posibility was that I got the lathe for so cheap, that even with ALL the extras, I would still be able to sell it for what I put into it. Without the total restoration, I'd still be able to sell it (if ever needed) for much more than invested. And while it would be nice to have it all shiny and pretty, it isn't necessary.

[Cary Falk]

I restored a Unisaw with some Rustoleum paint in a spray can. It was some of their insustrial stuff. It took a long time to cure but when it did it was hard as nails. I would buy a quality paint and call it good. Spend the remainder of money on accessories and wood.

[Dan Hintz]

Mike,

I got your number, now... you're trying to work in a subconscious push for me to purchase new tools, like a welder or a soda blaster. I'm on to you now, so it won't work... though those new dry ice blasters are pretty cool, and I wouldn't mind a new plasma torch. Hey have you seen those... wait, what was I talking about?

[Mike Cruz]

You were talking about gettin a whole lot of new toys to beautify my lathe. You were talking about doing it all for free. You wanted to do it to gain experience. You are happy to do it... oh, are my Jedi mind tricks working on you? :D While we're at it, you are going to get a spray booth (or maybe even an oven for powdercoating) and you'd be happy to practice on my lathe.................

[Chris Fournier]

This spring I undertook a project similar to yours and I would advise you to sandblast and paint. The sand blasting is a no-brainer and a few calls to a few blasters will find you a very cheap "cash" deal. I paid $75 to completely blast a General 100-5 disc and belt sander. I took the machine apart and transported the pieces to and from the blaster.

Casting will always look better with a bit of body filler work. A local paint supplier - I like Sherwin Williams - will set you up with a tough primer and paint combo. You can even have a custom colour mixed. I paid $80 for primer and paint.

Replace the bearings and any other deficiencies while you're at it. The trouble is worth it if you decide to commit to making a "nice looking machine".

[Mike Cruz]

Chris, WHAT? No finished pics?