Workholding for use with a Molding Plane?

[Brander Roullett]

In a previous thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=151897) I asked about a molding plane I picked up (my first one).

I'm in the middle of building my bench, and I've got a little ways to go on that including all the work holding parts.

Question: How do you typically hold the work to use the molding plane on? It seems like with small molding pieces it would be hard to hold the wood without interfering with the plane body? I looked around on the web and saw a bunch of videos of people using a molding plane on a wide plank and molding the top edge, which is easy enough, but that only works if you want a wide board with a nice top edge.

What about smaller molding? Do you have to do it on a wider board, and cut it free? That seems like extra work, but I can't think of an easy way to hold a thin strip of wood to work with a plane that doesn't have a clamp in the way?

I'm still quite new to the Neander world, so tips/hints would be appreciated.

thanks!

[Robert Rozaieski]

There are a couple of ways. You can mold the edge of a wide board and then rip the molding free. I do this frequently. It's not really any extra work. If you want to mold a small piece, you would likely have to rip that from a wider piece first anyway.

You can also use a sticking board. Roy uses one in this video.
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2913.html

[Brander Roullett]

There are a couple of ways. You can mold the edge of a wide board and then rip the molding free. I do this frequently. It's not really any extra work. If you want to mold a small piece, you would likely have to rip that from a wider piece first anyway.

You can also use a sticking board. Roy uses one in this video.
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2913.html

So that is what a sticking board is. I've read the term, but it didn't make sense to me. Now it does.

I have that episode recorded on my DVR, but haven't had a chance to watch it yet since my kid is usually watching Thomas the Tank Engine on loop.

Thanks!!

[Andrae Covington]

So that is what a sticking board is. I've read the term, but it didn't make sense to me. Now it does.

I have that episode recorded on my DVR, but haven't had a chance to watch it yet since my kid is usually watching Thomas the Tank Engine on loop.

Thanks!!

You might be interested in Don McConnell's DVDs about using molding planes (produced by Lie-Nielsen). I have the first one that covers the basics, including using a sticking board.

[Adam Cherubini]

I have several tricks. First, I don't care for sticking boards. They seem like an excuse for a poorly designed workbench. Here are a couple methods I use:
1) I clamp a board as long as my bench to my work top. The board is located just behind the planing stop. This make the entire bench into a sort of sticking board. If the board is thick and deep, end clamps alone might be good enough. But I typically use the same board I use across the h/fs in my bench legs. It's a maple 1x3. So I support this board with additional h/fs thru the bench top.

2) I've been using my Nicholson bench mostly. So I use the same board on the front face of the bench sometimes. I hold it to the front apron (side board) with clamps and h/fs or pegs. On the Nicholson bench, the H/F holes are lined up horizontally for just such operations. In this instance, the stick itself becomes the bench. I tap in a headed nail for a stop. I use this approach when the molding needs a stop no larger than a nail.

3) Lastly, tho I wouldn't admit it, I've been known to nail workpieces to my work bench. You can often reuse these holes later if you are careful or hide them in other ways (toe nailing the molding to the bench).

4) Tho I've never done, it, I've heard of guys using hot glue (not hot hide) or doudle sided tape for working really small stuff. Again, no personal experience here, but what guys do is run a piece of masking tape or some other tape onto their bench then glue stuff to the tape. When you are done you pull the tape off and your bench is clean.

5) I've molded boards then sawn many times, but you have to be careful with this. A lot of time that sawn edge is a mating surface and it can be impossible to plane later.

6) To whit; Using my 1/8" cutter, I've plowed grooves top and bottom in sticks I was planing to mold. I left an 1/8" of wood attaching the waste to the work piece, then cut the molding, then literally took a knife and cut thru the remaining 1/8". The material left over was removed with a smooth plane freehand (holding both plane and molding- typically with the plane held stationary).

I think for larger architectural moldings, guys used more conventional methods in the past. But for furniture scaled moldings, I think some of teh other techniques don't work as well.

That's my 2 cents. Maybe Bob will make us some videos of these different methods. I'm working on an article on moldings and I'll shoot some home movies (of other aspects) at Christmas time.

Adam

[Robert Rozaieski]

I'm working on an article on moldings and I'll shoot some home movies (of other aspects) at Christmas time.

Adam
Does that mean you're coming back to us Adam :D? Or is it just a Christmas break?

[Jon van der Linden]

4) Tho I've never done, it, I've heard of guys using hot glue (not hot hide) or doudle sided tape for working really small stuff. Again, no personal experience here, but what guys do is run a piece of masking tape or some other tape onto their bench then glue stuff to the tape. When you are done you pull the tape off and your bench is clean.

Adam

Double sided tape can work very well. There are different grades of double sided tape, so you should do a test to make sure that you'll be able to get your work apart without damage. It is also important that you're not introducing a bobble (technical term;)) by taping only a portion of a thin molding creating an uneven base.

While I haven't used tapes for mouldings, I have used them often for pieces where contours have to match and it's been very successful and quick.

Hot melt glue usually makes too much of a bump or gap to be useful to me and often creates blemishes when removed.

[Brander Roullett]

I have several tricks.

2) I've been using my Nicholson bench mostly. So I use the same board on the front face of the bench sometimes. I hold it to the front apron (side board) with clamps and h/fs or pegs. On the Nicholson bench, the H/F holes are lined up horizontally for just such operations. In this instance, the stick itself becomes the bench. I tap in a headed nail for a stop. I use this approach when the molding needs a stop no larger than a nail.


Thank you Adam, I am building a variation on the Nicholson, so this is perfect for my shop, and easy to set up and use. Also, it's infinitly adjustable to suit the work as well, something a sticking board is a bit more work to do.

badger

[Steve Branam]

Here's are some really great posts on making moldings that Tom Fidgen did last year:

http://tomfidgen.blogspot.com/2009/05/mouldings-miters-and-more.html

http://tomfidgen.blogspot.com/2009/09/mouldings-and-miters.html

http://tomfidgen.blogspot.com/2009/10/making-mouldings-and-shaping-wood.html.

I found these fascinating, they really got me interested in wooden molding planes. Then I was ecstatic to find Larry Williams' and Don McConnell's DVDs from Lie-Nielsen.

[Joseph Klosek]

The double sided tape does work well, however on pieces with a thin edge the tape can grip so much that the edge is broken when trying to pull the piece free. Now I know to use mineral spirits to loosen the tape in those situations.

You can also screw the piece to a wider board through the back and then clamp to the bench or use a planing stop. Just make sure the screw is in the thickest part. Anyway you won't have a hole on the show side if done right.

J.P.

[Don McConnell]

Hi Brander,

Sorry I'm so late responding to this thread, but hope I have something worthwhile to add.

Since the plane you previously found was determined to be a sash ovolo plane, it was good that you were pointed to the use of a sash sticking board as demonstrated in Underhill's video. Unfortunately, he demonstrates a very unconventional use of a sash sticking board - possibly largely because he wasn't actually using a sash plane to stick the ovolo.

In any event, my understanding is that sash sticking boards were designed to be used in such a way that they didn't need to be turned around and/or held sideways in a vise as Underhill demonstrates. Rather, they were designed to lie in one position on the bench and both the rabbet and profile, on each side, worked in the same direction. First with a sash fillister, then with the sash ovolo. This allows for selecting and orienting the material so that you are always planing with the grain.

I'm sure there are any number of variations, but I've made up a few sketches to, hopefully, clarify what a simple sash sticking board looks like and how it is used.

The first sketch is of the sticking board itself, with an indication of the presence of a couple of flat-head screws against which to work the pieces. With one possible minor exception (to be discussed anon) these should be ample for holding the work while they are being planed:

http://planemaker.com/photos/sashsb1.gif

The next sketch indicates the position of the piece while creating the first rabbet with the sash fillister plane:

http://planemaker.com/photos/sashsb2.gif

As you can see, the material hangs over the edge, somewhat, during this process. In most instances the inward and downward pressure of the sash fillister plane should hold it in place, but toe-nailing in a small brad or using a small bench knife at the near end will suffice if any difficulty arises.

The next sketch indicates the position of the material while creating the second rabbet:

http://planemaker.com/photos/sashsb3.gif

And, finally, the next two sketches indicate the position of the material while both sides of the profile are created:

http://planemaker.com/photos/sashsb4.gif

http://planemaker.com/photos/sashsb5.gif

I believe one of the primary advantages of sticking boards when making mouldings is that they allow for the material to be adequately held without, usually, having to resort to glue spots, double-stick tape, nails, &c. This is especially useful when sticking mouldings with rabbet/fillister, snipe's bill and H&R planes which may call for several steps of layout and gaging lines.

As others have mentioned, small mouldings can be stuck on the edge of a wider piece and separated off. And, as has already been indicated, gaging for this prior to sticking the moulding can be very helpful. After the moulding is separated (by rip saw, plough plane, &c.), a shooting board and trying plane can be very useful for cleaning the back surface up.

Hope this helps.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[Brander Roullett]

Wow!

Don, thank you for taking the time to put that together, they say a picture is worth a 1000 words, and in this case it's true.

Thanks Don for the detailed description.

[Adam Cherubini]

Hi Brander,
I believe one of the primary advantages of sticking boards when making mouldings is that they allow for the material to be adequately held without, usually, having to resort to glue spots, double-stick tape, nails, &c. This is especially useful when sticking mouldings with rabbet/fillister, snipe's bill and H&R planes which may call for several steps of layout and gaging lines.

Eureka Springs, AR
Great post Don. Don't mean to pick nits, but maybe we should say clearly- Sash making was a specialty in pre-industrial world and remains a speciality today. Sash makers in the Anglo-American 17th and 18th centuries were called "sash joiners". They had a range of specialty tools for making sash. The sash maker's sticking board is unique in that it was designed to hold a piece of wood all but un-holdable otherwise. For the rest of us, our moldings almost always have a flat face or even 2 (and they are often square).

Your description of a sash maker's sticking board is terrific, but I don't think it's your intention to suggest that ALL moldings require a sticking board, just as it wasn't mine to suggest that double sided tape or hot glue are the two chief alternatives to a sticking board.

I have a large collection of sash planes and I find them helpful for non-sash related moldings. WHile I have your attention, I have a question;

I have many sets of English sash planes with numbers 1 and 2 stamped on them. I've heard many theories about these sets of planes. What is the latest greatest info on the subject? Last I heard, one was used as a sort of roughing plane, may have had a different throat or even profile. Mine appear to be identical in every way. They may have seen very little use.

Adam

[Trevor Walsh]

Lacking a proper shooting board and workbench I've used battens clamped or nailed to the "bench/table" and painter's tape loops to secure (read hold gingerly) to the battens. the force of planing holds the piece into the battens, and the tape keeps them from falling off when the stroke is completed. I've been using this when plowing grooves in thin (width) stock where my fence would interfere with the benchtop in a normal setup.

[Adam Cherubini]

I'm just like everybody else. When I think of moldings, I think about architectural moldings. Most if not all of my planes were designed and used for architectural moldings. But this isn't what I use them for. In fact, making moldings for furniture often isn't similar. I recall making double arch mold for different projects. Wm&Mary or early double arch molds are often 3/8" wide, and no more than 3/16". That's pretty dinky! Ditto for cockbead. I've made cockbead with a tiny bead plane. The double arch I now scratch.

Adam

[Sandy Stanford]

In a previous thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=151897) I asked about a molding plane I picked up (my first one).

I'm in the middle of building my bench, and I've got a little ways to go on that including all the work holding parts.

Question: How do you typically hold the work to use the molding plane on? It seems like with small molding pieces it would be hard to hold the wood without interfering with the plane body? I looked around on the web and saw a bunch of videos of people using a molding plane on a wide plank and molding the top edge, which is easy enough, but that only works if you want a wide board with a nice top edge.

What about smaller molding? Do you have to do it on a wider board, and cut it free? That seems like extra work, but I can't think of an easy way to hold a thin strip of wood to work with a plane that doesn't have a clamp in the way?

I'm still quite new to the Neander world, so tips/hints would be appreciated.

thanks!

Mould a wider board and rip the moulding off. Use extra length (you should do this regardless), nail board, run moulding, crosscut nailed ends off. Most handmade mouldings have flaws at the start and finish, you're gonna crosscut those bad ends off anyway. You can also nail them to a sacrificial board and clamp that board down if you don't want nail holes in your bench.

I haven't read all the responses but I'd be shocked if these weren't already mentioned.

[Trevor Walsh]

Prepair to be shocked, I don't think these were mentioned, but I like them.

[Adam Cherubini]

I haven't read all the responses but I'd be shocked if these weren't already mentioned.

Yeah, we're on the same page, Sandy. Bob mentioned holding a wider board and ripping the molding off after sticking in the second post. I reluctantly admitted to nailing moldings to my bench in the 4th.

I don't agree about ripping off the ends. I also don't do what Mark Arnold suggested in the latest PWW. I miter one end, leaving the un-mitered (back) end long. I align the miter with the corner and nail that molding onto the side. I cut the next miter (for the front piece), fit it to the first, then mark the next miter at the next corner.

Essentially, I wrap my moldings around my cases starting from the back. Once the moldings are in place, I saw the excess overhanging the back. Sometimes I use my japanese flush saw to help with this. But when the molding is thick, I've had trouble controlling that cut.

A few years ago, I was looking at a Philly Chippendale piece in the Philly Museum. I saw these interesting scratches on the back of the case and realized instantly Philadelphia craftsmen didn't have Japanese flush saws and didn't care.

Tho this physical evidence (I've since seen it on other cases, English and American) doesn't say with certainty what order the moldings were nailed up. My guess is they were doing what I do; Nailing up one piece, and fitting the mating pieces to the installed bit, leaving excess at the back to be trimmed after installation.

Adam

[Robert Rozaieski]

I miter one end, leaving the un-mitered (back) end long. I align the miter with the corner and nail that molding onto the side. I cut the next miter (for the front piece), fit it to the first, then mark the next miter at the next corner.

Essentially, I wrap my moldings around my cases starting from the back. Once the moldings are in place, I saw the excess overhanging the back.

I do the exact same thing. I think it keeps the miters more consistent and the grain match is better at the corners that way.

[George Neill]

Being precious about a workbench can be counterproductive; if something will be easier worked by nailing it to the bench, I nail it to the bench.

The first and last two or three inches of my planed or scratched mouldings usually aren't too pretty, so I always allow for losing that amount.

I also wrap the mouldings around the carcase and trim the overhang off the back of the piece after it's all attached.

[Dewald van Lamp]

This is a valuable thread.

Please archive it.

And thank y'all for contributing!

:)