Tormek guilt and doubt

[Dan Karachio]

After struggling with stones, worksharp, granite slabs, glass plates, sticky sand paper, leather, angle jigs and a grinder (with more jigs), I made a somewhat impulsive move and ordered a Tormek T-7 with the hand tool kit. My rationale - I have spent the price of a Tormek to date and and am not happy or getting the results I want. I know, I know I could devote more time and training to this, but I just want sharp tools. I have tried hard, I get okay results, but I want much better results with less time (I have limited shop time as it is).

It will probably be here Wednesday and I find myself thinking, "What in God's name did you do? For that much money you could buy almost every Lie Nielsen bench and mortise chisel there is!" or "If you put it in Apple stock it would be worth $20,000 in 2025!" and so on.

Those of you with a Tormek and like it, did you experience similar guilt and remorse? If so, did it disappear the moment your freshly sharpened bench chisels took (with great ease) gossamer shavings from purple heart end grain?

[Gary Curtis]

Until a person learns it, sharpening is hard. My machinist dad taught me how in the '50s, but I couldn't even manage to hone a Buck 5" knife when I reached adulthood.

Without mentioning names or brands, I was told by perhaps the leading maker of plane irons in North America that whatever sharpening method you learn, stick with it. Stop looking at your neighbor's newer and better gadget.

If you got the Tormek, learn to use it. I've got a competing machine, and as slick as it is, I can't really sharpen kitchen knives easily. Let alone an axe. I believe a Tormek will do both. So, boo-hoo.

I lived and worked in Japan as a foreign correspondent for years. I was assigned once to visit a swordmaker who was designated as a Living National Treasure. Over a weekend staying at his farmhouse, he told me it took him 3 months to sharpen new sword.

Westerners don't have that level of patience. So turn on your machine, sharpen away and consider yourself lucky.:)

Gary Curtis

[Carl Carew]

Get over that guilt!!! life is too short, if that is what you wanted enjoy it when it comes. I have had one for about 3 years, don't expect to get instant super sharp tools, there is a learning curve. Read the manual and you will soon have some very sharp tools. I use 3 methods for sharpening, water stones, plate glass with wet dry automotive sanding sheets from 220 grit to 1500 and my Tormek. I like the Tormek for chisels and lathe tools and adz, do my plane irons on the glass block and my carving knives on the stones.
Enjoy

Carl

[Sean Hughto]

The tormek is a nice tool. It is a tool for sharpening other tools, but think of it as though you bought a decent table saw or bandsaw or drill press. It does a great job of sharpening, will get plenty of use, will last a loooong time, and will make your woodworking better (sharp tools do better work and are a joy to use - a hppy woodworker does more and better work - it's a feedback loop). Don't feel remorse. Feel delight and get ready to make some great stuff.

[John Coloccia]

I use my Tormek to establish bevels, and then do final honing on a stone and a strop. With a hollow grind from the Tormek, even a monkey like me could sharpen freehand if I want to, and a stupid monkey could do it with a honing guide. I'll be perfectly honest that I was never happy with the final edge from the Tormek, and I found the grading stone to be inconvenient to use, hence the honing on a regular stone, but I think you'll find it's much easier than other methods and you'll be happy.

[george wilson]

The very first thing I ever taught my new apprentices to do was to sharpen tools. It immediately opened the door to them to start doing better work. I was known for sharpening in Williamsburg,and was asked to come to some other shops to teach sharpening to them also.

The old Dutch cabinet maker,Jan Heuvel,who was there when I first arrived,had one technique only: He had an irregular shaped Belgian stone. Woodcraft Supply used to sell them in the 60's(and before,I guess). He used to SPIT on it,and sharpen his Swedish chisel,and that was it!

The guy who became the Master Bookbinder told me that he started out as an interpreter in the cabinet shop. He called the back saw a BICK SAW for months,until he found out from someone who did not have a heavy Dutch accent that it was a BACK saw.:)

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks everyone. I was being a little tongue and cheek about the guilt, because it is such a hit on the wallet. I realize I will need to work with this and it won't give me perfection out of the box. I also like the idea of know sparks and metal shavings flying around.

[Gary Hodgin]

Yes, I did experience significant guilt when I got my SuperGrind 2000 a long with a whole bunch of accessories a few years ago. Not as much as with a boat I purchased. I've eventually sold the boat but kept the tormek.

It's a nice machine, but I still hone my chisels and plane irons on waterstones. I grind them when needed on the tormek. It also good for sharpening kitchen knives, scissors, and turning tools. I'm not a big lathe user but I have the jigs if I ever need to sharpen a turning tool. BTW, there is a bit of a learning curve with some of the jigs. It's slow, but I don't blue my tools and I'm just having fun anyway.

I am also a register member of the the tormek users group on yahoo. There's some experienced users in the group that can help if you have questions, as I'm sure there are on this forum.

[Brian Yates]

I've had a Tormek for eight years or so and I use it for all of my sharpening, bench chisels, plane irons, carving chisels, turning tools,... I do sometimes use a very fine stone for final honing, but if you use the leather strop wheel and honing compound you'll be shaving hairs off the back of your hand in no time.

The Tormek advanced my woodworking by leaps and bounds, but even after using it for years I found there was still room for me to improve. The epiphany that I had was when I got a new plane from Lee Valley with a honed and polished blade that was "really" sharp and able to leave a glass like surface on Maple I saw that even though my blade were "sharp" there was room for improvement. I read somewhere that it's hard to learn to sharpen until you see and feel what a truly sharp edge feels like. Keep working at it and you'll get to a point where you can take shavings from the end grain of pine, if you do that you've got yourself a sharp edge there! Enjoy it!

Also check out their forum, most any problem or question you'll have has probably been addressed at some point.http://www.tormek.com/forum/

[David Keller NC]

I have and use a Tormek (the older model - they added a graduated adjustment to the support bar a couple of years back that I don't have).

A Tormek can be used to hone and put the final edge on carving tools (and I use it for this purpose). However, in my opinion it is not capable of putting the final edge on a plane or bench chisel blade. The reason is that the leather wheel strop tends to round the edge slightly unless used very, very carefully and with a high degree of skill.

Rounding the bevel slightly on a carving tool is actually desirable, but generally not on a bench chisel or plane blade. For that reason, I use the grinding wheel to hollow-grind these tools, and then go directly to an 8000 grit waterstone to put the final edge on.

While in some sense you might be dissappointed that your new $700 tool won't give you the final edge, hollow-grinding with the Tormek followed by 5 strokes on an 8000 grit waterstone will be a revelation - it's far, far faster than a totally manual method on flat abrasive surfaces (i.e., sharpening a straight bevel rather than hollow-grinding).

Ultimately, an even faster method is with a dry grinder and a final polishing stone, and that's the method that I've been slowly moving toward. However, it does take skill to use a dry grinder and avoid bluing the edges on tools, and in this realm the Tormek excels - it's not possible to de-temper a tool on one.

P.S. - Buy the "stone truing tool". This is a bit of a misnomer - while it can be used to true the stone wheel, I most often use it to re-establish the stone's surface. The stone grading tool is supposed to be useful for this, but I"ve never found it to do a good job at re-establishing a coarse (and therefore fast) surface.

[Dan Karachio]

Yea, I did expect to also use my water stone to hone chisels and plane irons freehand - saw Tommy Mac do just this on a video podcast the other day. He was swearing by it as do some of you, so that has to be solide advice. Thanks!

[Russell Sansom]

I think you have a quorum on the answers. From what you've said about your sharpening history I'd guess you're going to be very, very happy with the large diameter wet grinder. I think it's wishful to think you can use an edge right off the grinder. I'll confess to having tried it, but there's no reason. As somebody said, 5 swipes on a 6000 or 8000 waterstone and you are ready to go.
After trying all those other methods, you're going to enjoy the 4-minute edge rehab. One more thing: The Tormek will lengthen the life of you tools by letting you take off the bare minimum metal for a rehab.

[Jim Koepke]

...

I was assigned once to visit a swordmaker who was designated as a Living National Treasure. Over a weekend staying at his farmhouse, he told me it took him 3 months to sharpen new sword.

Westerners don't have that level of patience. So turn on your machine, sharpen away and consider yourself lucky.:)

Gary Curtis

A person once told me that a samari sword was not sharp until a silk handkerchief could be dropped from 6 inches above the blade and be cleanly cut without drooping when it hit the blade.

That would take me more than 3 months to get anything that sharp.

jtk

[Doug Mason]

Whatever works for you!

I bought a Tormack when I first got into woodworking--not knowing any better--but I quickly grew annoyed with it. It simply took too long to set up and sharpen things with--and the gazillion accessories became burdensome. For me, the primary objective of sharpening is to be done with it ASAP.

So but for a couple months of use after its puchase the Tormack has sat in my shop collecting dust. I haven't used it in years. For me it's oilstones, a strop and a grinder. It takes a couple minutes to hone and strop and about 5 minutes to grind. Oh--I also use a belt sander for turning gouges, drawknifes, etc.

[Stephen Cherry]

Guilty- life is too short.

I don't have a tormek, but it's basically a really nice grinder, with a powered strop. Maybe if I continue to be good, Santa will bring me one.

I would recommend hollow grinding with the tormek, then a few passes on a very fine diamond stone, then spyderco ceramic stone, on the bevel and flat side. This will produce a hair raising edge in almost no time, with very little mess. The nice hollow grind will allow you to do the final sharpening hand held.

[Larry Fox]

I have one and really like it. I recently took the week-long Cosman class in Calgary and the big thing that I wanted to get out of it was the ability to sharpen with confidence. I feel like I left with the fundamentals but technique needs practice. If I get it (and I do mean if) I plan to keep the Tormek for establishing the primary angles and using stones from then on. I mention all this because if I struggle too much with the stones I will go back to the Tormek for all sharpening in a hot minute. My shop time is to precious and I have enough other stresses in my life to feel guilty using what some consider to be a crutch. The mean time between interruptions in my shop time is about 45 minutes with a standard deviation of about 10 minutes so there is not time for the "Zen" of sharpening if I want to get anything done. UMMV

[David Weaver]

There's no reason to feel guilt for getting a tormek. It's useful, especially for maintenance of primary bevels, even if that's not all you use.

Even if not, you'll find uses for the leather wheel on it and appreciate the ability to grind some things freehand slowly, like carving tools, or to use jigs for other tools (like turning tools) and be very precise.

The guilt must be built on our absorption of asian goods thinking we need to see a room full of tools for $600 instead of a simple spinning wet stone and a leather strop.

I got one used, and I don't regret the money spent on it for a second, even if I don't use it sometimes for a month, nor do I ever use it for final honing. When you flip the switch, though, it works as advertised every single time.

[Mike Brady]

I can't comment on the tormek machine since I don't have one, but I have a couple of observations about them:
1. You seldom see used ones for sale.
2. I personally don't know anyone with a hand-tool oriented shop that uses a tormek as his primary means of sharpening.
A tormek is not anywhere on my wish list, but if you change your mind on #1&2 above, give me a shout. :-)

[David Weaver]

When mine went up for sale on CL, I paid the guy ($300) with paypal ahead of time. Between the time I paid and the time I went there that day, five people called and tried to offer the seller more money than I paid. He was an easy going old guy who was a carpenter, and who was retiring, so he didn't give me the juke, refund my money and sell it to someone else in the interim.

They're a nice tool to have. A bit indulgent to be called necessary by anyone, but very nice, especially for turning tools, and I suppose just as good as a dry grinder for chisels and plane irons when you're doing maintenance sharpening, except you can work all the way to the edge (I still use a dry grinder more, especially for chisels).

The leather strop wheel is useful for odd size small things that might get away on a high speed strop wheel, and as a bonus, you can sharpen a knife to pretty good sharpness on a tormek very quickly if you have a cheap knife jig (one came with the HF wet grinder I had prior), so if you have a wife who likes to use the sharp edge of a knife like a plow or scraper, you can relax and not worry about what she's doing, but still not get stuck with a fat bevel like you get with the hand doohickey V-sharpeners for kitchen knives.

[Archie England]

Yep! Felt the same way . . . until I started getting incredibly sharp blades every time I repeated the process. The Tormek is a fantastic tool. It has its limits; but, if used correctly the stone plus leather strop will genuinely work. And, I've got several other systems, too. I use the Wolverine to get fast results for my turning tools; the T2000 goes the extra mile in refining and polishing. The latter lasts longer but takes longer to achieve. Hence, the Wolverine gets me back to turning rather quickly.

Don't get rid of your stones; you'll need those to flatten the backs of tools. What I've discovered is this, most every system will work--if one invests appropriately to achieve results. As a young, hobby woodworker, the repeatable results of the Tormek and Wolverine are exactly what I need to enjoy working the wood, rather than the tools--but that's fun, too.

Enjoy!

[Anchul Axelrod]

Dan,

Years ago I started with stones, and quickly became frustrated. One day I saw a Tormek demonstrated, and that was it. I was mainly a power tool user at that time. Years passed, and all my sharpening was done on the Tormek, and it was great, so I thought.

As many years passed, I woke one day asking myself why I didn't seem to be improving my woodworking skills. (No, it didn't have to do with sharpening, grinning) However, IMHO, it did have to do with hand tools, which I had mostly ignored for all those years. So, I made an awfully bad decision, and bought my first Lie Nelson hand plane. Yea, yea, I know . . .darn slippery slope it is. It was my first nice plane. And I noticed that right out of the box it seemed sharper then anything I've been able to obtain. So . . . I started reading and started learning AGAIN :)

Fast forward a couple of years. Here is where I'm at. And this is just me. I love my Tormek. I use it for all kinds of hand tools. I also own a Worksharp 3000 with all the accessories. I primarily bought that for lapping plane blades, and it does a good job. But here's the rub, no pun intended. The grit of the Tormek only goes so high. Does it get my tools sharp, YES! Does it get them as sharp as I want, NO! Now "as sharp as I want" is a personal thing. But once I experienced a blade from NL, and knowing I was going to catapult down this slippery slope, I wanted to AT LEAST be able to keep my plane blades and chisels as sharp as that. So . . .I read, I learned, and I learned how to use water stones.

I still use my Tormek, and wouldn't sell it for the world. I am excited for you. Learn to use the machine and you very well may be extremely happy for the rest of your woodworking days. However, if there comes a day when sharp doesn't seem to be sharp enough, consider using your Tormek in conjunction with stones. My tools are as close to surgically sharp as I can get them, and it changed so much in regards to my woodworking.

So to summarize, congratulations. It is a great tool. Enjoy! And keep learning. One last thing, I understand that many say that sharpening is a chore. I too would rather be making shaving. However, I learned that it IS a neccessary evil, and in such, I learned to enjoy the process. Matter of fact, it has become somewhat like a Zen thing. Like many things in woodworking, learn to enjoy the process, and the result will be finer shavings. Happy woodworking!

[Duane Mohney]

I the grizzly wet grinder, and I thought this was a huge chunk of my fun budget being spend on one thing, until I used it and realized that it made the rest of my play time much more fun.

I grind the bevels on my blades with the wet grinder and then freehand hone on an 8000grit Norton water stone, and it makes me much happier having very sharp blades. Now if I could make flattening the back just as easy.

[Dan Karachio]

Okay, it came in today and I have been playing with it for a few hours. Wow! I tried it out a bit then (as suggested) I used the trueing tool to give a faster cutting surface. I then ground down three chisels (the first one a 1") to 25 degrees. It did not take too long (and they were a mess).

I was about to use my stones on these for a secondary bevel, but then I decided to try something. Though a few people suggested the leather stropping wheel did not work well, I prepped the wheel with some oil then the honing compound. I used the angle jig to polish up those same chisels at 25 degrees and Holy Cow!!! I am cutting end grain like butter and the hair is coming off my arm so easily I stopped for fear of slicing into my skin. I have never ever in my short wood working life had chisels this sharp.

Question please (maybe I should use another area or forum). Will this stropping wheel edge (though impressive now) have a short life since it was done at the same 25 degrees of the hollow ground (and/or because it was done on leather)? Should I try using the stropping wheel at say 30 degrees? Should I put a secondary bevel on with my stones at 30 degrees then use the stropping wheel at 30 degrees? No offense to my stones or anyone else, but if I don't have to use them for this, I would be happy. I'm going to try a few options to see what works.

[John Coloccia]

I don't chop with my 25 degree chisels. I only pair. You could maybe chop in soft wood like pine with those. As they get dull, you need only take them to a leather strop to keep the edge keen, provided you do it before the edge is too dull to strop. In fact, I only have to hone my edge maybe once a week as long as I keep them sharp with the strop.

I would leave them at 25 degrees for pairing. I go to 35 degrees for chopping. 30 or 35 degrees for my planes depending on the application.

What I don't do is ever put a microbevel on the edge of a hollow grind. That defeats the purpose of the hollow grind, actually...or rather, the hollow grind makes the micro bevel obsolete. The only reason for a microbevel is that it's very difficult and time consuming to hone the entire face of a bevel. If this were not so, when you wanted a 35 degree edge, you'd set the bevel to 35 degrees and hone. As it is, we set the bevel to, 35 degrees, and then hone at 37 degrees (for example), thereby honing only a very tiny portion of the blade.

With the hollow grind, there's no bevel to hone, per say, as the chisel will ride on the front edge and back edge of the hollow, making a microbevel somewhat obsolete.

The only place I don't like this is with mortise chisels. I like having a flat bevel for those because I think it make everything work better, and then I use micro-bevels (and can't use the Tormek, of course).

Go to that wheel often, and you will be very happy. You'll eventually learn to use the wheel freehand. I mainly use the wheel strop for my turning tools and strop with leather on a board for straight tools. That board hangs on my bench, and I strop very often....and hone/sharpen very infrequently.

This is just what I do and my opinion.

[Dan Karachio]

Wow, thanks John, that is some of the best and most educational info I have ever received here or any other forum!

[David Keller NC]

Question please (maybe I should use another area or forum). Will this stropping wheel edge (though impressive now) have a short life since it was done at the same 25 degrees of the hollow ground (and/or because it was done on leather)? Should I try using the stropping wheel at say 30 degrees? Should I put a secondary bevel on with my stones at 30 degrees then use the stropping wheel at 30 degrees? No offense to my stones or anyone else, but if I don't have to use them for this, I would be happy. I'm going to try a few options to see what works.

Dan - The difficulty with using the powered stropping wheel on the tormek has more to do with going a bit too far and rounding the bevel so that it must be re-ground rather than re-honed. That said, you can strop the bevel on a chisel or plane blade a number of times before the cutting edge bevel gets so steep that it no longer cuts effectively.

This is why I have a "manual" strop on my bench - generally, only 3 or 4 swipes done by hand is all that it takes to restore a moderately dull cutting edge back to razor sharp, and there's less of a chance of rounding the bevel if it's done carefully by hand.

Also, you can use a manual strop to take a couple of swipes on the back of a chisel or plane blade while holding it flat on the leather. This removes the small wire edge formed by stropping the bevel. Theoretically, you can do this on the powered wheel on the Tormek, but it's just as likely that you'll round the back of the blade near the cutting edge. That's a disaster with a flat blade, because you're going to have to grind a good bit of metal away to restore the flat back. With a carving tool, doing this doesn't matter so much - in fact, many of us purposely put a small back-bevel on our carving tools to allow them to be used upside down on a workpiece.

[Mark Roderick]

Like several others who have already posted, I use the Tormek to put a hollow grind on my blades, and that hollow grind makes it child's play to finish the process on a stone, by hand. Hollow grind on the Tormek, a few strokes on the 8000 grit Norton stone, a few more on a stropping compound, and I'm done.

The next time you sharpen that blade the stone and the stropping compound are enough. Only when the hollow grind is gone do I go back to the Tormek.

But using the Tormek itself is a skill that must be learned. It's not automatically easy to grind the blade at 90 degrees.

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Now I have a new "guilt" problem. I think I need more chisels and planes in order to justify this purchase!

[Russell Sansom]

Dan,
Since you're specifying a precise bevel you're "using" with the leather wheel, I'm getting the idea that you might be using it the way you're using the stone. I mean, that you're using the leather rotating TOWARDS the tool. That could be a disaster if you catch the leading edge, including a destroyed wheel and nasty injury.
Just checking for your safety. You're using the leather wheel going AWAY from the leading edge (top of the leather wheel is rotating away from you )...Right?
On a separate topic; I'm not knocking the honers out there, honest. But as an alternative, try using your water stones instead of honing. On chisels and plane irons, that is. As several of us have pointed out, the hollow lets you rest the bevel on a stone perfectly with just finger pressure. 3 or 4 swipes with, say, a 1000 grit and a few more swipes with 6000 or 8000 and you get a "surgically" sharp mirrored bevel. I find it a bit quicker and a touch less messy. The downside is that by the 3rd or 4th touch up you've used up the hollow and will need to chuck it up into the Tormek again. Not sure how many times you can touch up with the honing wheel
In any case, enjoy quickly-sharp tools. Where was this thing all your life, huh?

[Chris Fournier]

I briefly used a Tormek that a friend of mine purchased because he was frustrated with sharpening on a bench grinder. We were both nonplussed with the Tormek. About all I can say for it is that it won't burn your tool steel. For some woodworkers this is worth the $$$ I guess.

After using the Tormek, I invited my friend over to my shop to show him how I used a bench grinder and Japanese stones to sharpen my tools. His Tormek gathered dust and was finally sold. He actually bought a decent bench grinder, wheel, wheel dressing tools and now gets on superbly with the set up.

The learning curve for sharpening is pretty steep and developing that "light touch" takes a lot of practice. Once it all comes together for you sharpening becomes a treat. Regardless, you can't buy your way up the sharpening learning curve, you've got to "grind it out" burning and learning.

I also sharpen metalworking tooling and once again the bench grinder and some other specialized forms of the species are the go to tools for a keen edge. Don't give up on developing your skill set, great edges are attainable with a bit of investment of your time. Avoid the latest and greatest gizmos like the plague.