my personal take on tools

[Sean Hughto]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread, so I thought I'd start a new one with my take. I know, you've all been waiting and hoping to hear my two cents, right? :rolleyes::rolleyes:;)

I like tools as much as the next guy, and I certainly appreciate hearing what tools others have had good success with. But that's pretty much where it ends. I don't judge another woodworker by the tool choices he or she makes. If you're a woodoworker and not a tool collector, the point is what you produce with the tools, not which tools you choose, or prefer, or can afford, or whatever. What have you made with your tools? Let me see that.

About a year ago I took up turning after doing flat work stuff for many years. I started hanging around the turners form, and I noticed something. While tool choices are still discussed a good bit, at least an equal number of postings are members sharing their actual works. It's refreshing to get past tool selections and basic techniques and on to the actual products of bringing the tools and techniques to bear. Now I understand that most furniture work takes a lot longer than turning a bowl on a lathe, but at the same time, I do wish there were more threads sharing results here in the Haven, or at least as many showing off pieces as asking which plane or handsaw to buy. :)

[David Weaver]

What if I make tools with my tools?

[Sean Hughto]

Whatever you make, I'd be glad to see.

[Brian Kent]

Good word, Sean. I am anxiously awaiting the time when I can get my shop set up at a new house and start back to work. It is a little tempting to buy something to make up for the lack of making something. But I'll just put that same time and money into getting my garage emptied of moving boxes and getting it ready to go back to work.

There is a terrific artist at my new church named Tom Emery. Lots of my power tools are bigger and better than his, but there is no comparison in what we can do. His work is awesome. His tools are simple and well honed, and superbly used.

[Tony Shea]

I very much agree Sean and also wish there were more projects shown here on the neander forum, such as what George has been showing as of late. The trouble is that doing all this work by hand does take a bit longer and typically requires more tools than a power guy who can use one tool for many different tasks. Therefore we get into asking the more experienced which tool fits the bill better and what make and model is preferred. Also, there seems to be a bit more of a closeness to our tools than if they had tails. They become extensions of our bodies almost, more so than power tools. Therefore we find ourselves a bit more proud of our tool acquisitions (spelling?) than if they had electrons flowing. It really is a slippery slope in the neander world as tool buying and collecting becomes an addiction, one in which is fun for some to share with others who understand. My girlfriend certainly doesn't get it. I also post pictures of some antique tools I come across as there are many here that have a vast knowledge of their history. In some cases I would never know where to look to find the information unless I had this wonderful resource.

In reality tools are as much of the fun as actually using the tools, especially here in the neander side of things. And this forum is a great place to share the fun as others here have the same addictions as I. But more projects posted created with these tools would always be a welcomed site.

[David Weaver]

Ever notice that most people won't post something here unless it was almost entirely done with hand tools?

How many people do a project start to finish with hand tools only?

[Robert Culver]

this is a very good point I have been hanging out in the turners neck of the woods to. Its nice to see all the different projects. as for me Im still gathering up most of my tools and have made a few of my own right now I have a couple projects going. More tools hahaha, Im getting close to wraping up a saw handle and a couple carving knives. Im actual working on 2 saw handles im going to carve wheat onto one of them thanks to help from the guys here im still kinda wishy washy with the wheat so i will be practicing a bt more before i put it on a finished project. It looks quite simple but im finding it takes a bit of focus and a good read on your hand and tool. projects for me are time cunsuming because i just get a couple hours a week most of the time and half of that can be seting up and sharpining easy. But hey it could be worse.

[Joe A Faulkner]

I've been using power tools for 26 years or so, and only this summer became interested in handtools. As a rookie to the neander craft, I love this forum for all of the information on techniques, tools, tool gloats, etc.

I tend to go to the "Woodworking Projects" forum to see projects. I think others who might not be interested in handtools are definitely interested in projects. So for the sake of power tools brothers and sisters, I'd like to encourage using the Woodworking Projects forum to post projects, and keep this forum focused on hand tool topics. Now if you are going to detail your build, then perhaps use this forum to detail it and the techniques, and in the end post your final project in the projects forum.

[David Keller NC]

Hmmm - Maybe it's because turners don't have very many tools to actually talk about (how many profiles of scrapers and bowl gouges can one have?). :D

But in one sense, you're making an implicit observation that is 100% correct. Much of woodworking, much less hand-tool woodworking, is now about tools and techniques, not design. Most of those actually engaged in making a living dooing woodworking wouldn't even consider taking the time to post to a forum. The 15 minutes to an hour it takes to peruse the forum everyday could be used to talk to a client, turn a few newel posts, or sand a few parts...

[John Coloccia]

Hmmm - Maybe it's because turners don't have very many tools to actually talk about (how many profiles of scrapers and bowl gouges can one have?). :D

As a very amateurish turner myself, and speaking for myself, the reason I don't talk about turning tools is that they are all horrible implements of destruction designed to turn beautiful, square pieces of wood into various assorted chunks of oddly shaped debris.

If the only hand tools I had to work with were a butter knife and an old rusty nail (IMHO the equivalent of a roughing gouge and a skew chisel), I wouldn't want to talk about hand tools either. No, the last thing I want to talk about are my turning tools, other than the "sanding stick". I like my sanding stick and can talk about it at length.

[David Keller NC]

As a very amateurish turner myself, and speaking for myself, the reason I don't talk about turning tools is that they are all horrible implements of destruction designed to turn beautiful, square pieces of wood into various assorted chunks of oddly shaped debris.

If the only hand tools I had to work with were a butter knife and an old rusty nail (IMHO the equivalent of a roughing gouge and a skew chisel), I wouldn't want to talk about hand tools either. No, the last thing I want to talk about are my turning tools, other than the "sanding stick". I like my sanding stick and can talk about it at length.

Ha! Yeah, I'm a (closet) turner myself - and probably your equal in ability to botch a simple bead. The only daylight I saw was a couple of months ago when I bought Alan Lacer's skew video - that was a revelation. But I still don't want to talk about my turning tools. :D

[David Weaver]

The 15 minutes to an hour it takes to peruse the forum everyday could be used to talk to a client, turn a few newel posts, or sand a few parts...

Or to relax and do something not related to your profession, which is what most of us on here are doing, anyway.

Which makes me wonder why it even matters so much to some what others post.

The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is salesy posts and information that's not objective. We have a pretty good way of hammering posters that do that.

I personally don't care if anyone on here shows anything that they do. We'd probably all be better off if we only saw stuff folks like George make, because it calibrates our expectations better, but to the extent someone else doesn't want to be burndened with those expectations and they want to churn out bird houses with butt joints, so be it. It's not a pro forum, and telling people what or what not to post is the fastest way to turn hear crickets.

(Dave, only that first sentence is directed toward your post).

[Sean Hughto]

Which makes me wonder why it even matters so much to some what others post.

Hmm, it matters to me that folks try not to be offensive. It also matters to me in that I hope we can supply each other interesting content to consider, learn from, be entertained by, share, etc.



I personally don't care if anyone on here shows anything that they do. We'd probably all be better off if we only saw stuff folks like George make, because it calibrates our expectations better, but to the extent someone else doesn't want to be burndened with those expectations and they want to churn out bird houses with butt joints, so be it. It's not a pro forum, and telling people what or what not to post is the fastest way to turn hear crickets.

(Dave, only that first sentence is directed toward your post).

I never said "impress me." I said, it sure would be nice to see more sharing of stuff people here are making as opposed to tons of threads about the details of basic tools. And tool threads are fine by the way, but some "stuff I made with those tools posts" would sure be interesting too. Over on the Turning form there's plenty of beginner efforts posted, and I'm always glad to see them; i.e., master status is not required to share creative efforts. And as far as "telling people what or what not to post" I haven't seen anyone doing any such thing.

[Chuck Nickerson]

There's something about the culture of this board that doesn't encourage the posting of projects, and I don't know what it is.

In 2009, I completed 22 woodworking projects. All were touched by handtools, six were handtool-only, and two of those were from the log. Most were posted somewhere, but none were posted here.

George Wilson is working to break that culture, but he does set a rather high standard.

[David Weaver]

Hmm, it matters to me that folks try not to be offensive. It also matters to me in that I hope we can supply each other interesting content to consider, learn from, be entertained by, share, etc.



First part is a matter of common courtesy, I would hope that on an ongoing basis, a forum moderated as this one will be able to stay at that level of non-offending and non-trolling.

The second part, I agree. To the extent that people don't (share, be entertained, ..), though, I hope they enjoy their time on here and when they don't, they decide to pack their bags and go to another toy box, or at least identify why they don't and ignore it (it could be me!..but the ignore button is always there).

I personally hope that when people read this forum, they've gotten the idea that if they don't know how to accomplish something, they can design a tool to do it and make it, and that in itself can be a desirable thing. As Joel's blog entry describes today, there has been in the past the ability to do work that is more organic and not dictated by tooling.

[george wilson]

I'm most definitely not trying to break the hand tool culture. I worked totally by hand for 16 years when I was in public. Now I am old and arthritic,I rely more on machines for grunt work work removal. I am just more comfortable here for some reason than in other sections. Most of the things I post here have significant amounts of hand tool work in them. Some are 100%,some much less. Some things I really shouldn't post here at all,I suppose. Some things might just be for the benefit of seeing the design work,which is always by hand,I.E.:not out of a computer program,which I will never know how to do,nor want to learn.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Sean, What we have here can be described as the horns of a dilema. You've seen a Dilema right? Big thing that can't seem to make choices.:D In reality though many of the folks post their projects in the Projects forum and our system is set up to discourage cross posting to different parts of the Creek. There really isn't an easy answer to the problem. I both personally and as forum moderator , do not see any problem with posting projects which are hybrids of hand and power tool work. I have done it myself and will continue to do so.

Like many here I have a full complement of both hand and pwer tools and tend to make my choice on what to use based on several criteria.
1) Is there a large number of repetitive operations such as 25 mortise and tenon joints of the same size....power tool time
2) Is it one off with many complicated setups by machine....hand tool time
3) Is it rough prep of lumber for width and thickness.... hand or power tools depending on quantity needed
4) Visible finished surfaces...hand tools only
5) Am I under a deadline and it is for non-home use....power tools whereever possible

As always, this is only my personal view and at times I don't always adhere to it myself.

[Nigel Tracy]

... Much of woodworking, much less hand-tool woodworking, is now about tools and techniques, not design...I was thinking about this exact thing earlier today. I would suggest the statement should read something like, "Much of the hobby of woodworking is now about tools, not about design and production."

I found myself worrying about whether .003-.005" tolerance was good enough for a sharpening surface. I decided the answer was to go, sharpen something on it, see how sharp I could get it and use said sharp item to actually make something. I'll let you know how it goes...

The point is the same as yours, David K's:
The 15 minutes to an hour it takes to peruse the forum everyday could be used to talk to a client, turn a few newel posts, or sand a few parts... ...or to answer a sharpening question myself by trying something out...

Don't get me wrong, I've learned lots from this forum and absolutely understand its educational value--not to mention the camaraderie. I simply must admit that sometimes I catch myself spending time searching or asking for an answer online that I could answer myself by doing.

I hate the realization that big-corporate Nike has a brilliant slogan: "Just Do It"

[David Keller NC]

Yeah, that's sort of what I meant. I don't have good data here, but I'd bet a beer or two that there's some 6-7 million woodworking hobbyists to about 200,000 commercial woodworkers, of which only perhaps 10% make there living making "fine woodworking" (furniture, wooden art, etc... rather than kitchen cabinets, built-ins, and the like).

Most of those that I know that do "fine" woodworking barely scrape by and definitely don't have much time to participate in WW clubs, online forums, etc...

[Sean Hughto]

Dave, I assume the smiley means you know that turning is full of tools from the lathes themselves to

chucks
centers
rests
grinder jigs
hollowing rigs
coring rigs
stabilizing jigs
vacuum chucks
dust masks and collection
and on and on

Take a look at the WoodTurners catalog or Packard's. They're pretty much just as thick as Highland, Rockler, Woodcraft etc. In short there's plenty to talk about with respect to turning equipment and tools.

[Sean Hughto]

I don't understand. Hobbiests produce works, right? Why do we even have to consider professionals (sole livelihood) in this conversation of doing and showing works? I feel like I'm not getting your point.

[James Owen]

I very much agree Sean and also wish there were more projects shown here on the neander forum, such as what George has been showing as of late.....But more projects posted created with these tools would always be a welcomed site.

Here we go: a total Neander project -- done as a prototype for a class I taught a couple of months ago, as well as a new addition to the TV room.

Curly maple top and aprons; and figured ambrosia maple legs. Tung oil and traditional varnish, for the finish. About 29 hours construction time from rough lumber, and about 8 hours or so for finishing.

[Sean Hughto]

That's a charming table. Simnple and elegant. Thanks for sharing it. It always amazes me how the hand work comes through on in the result, even on a straightforward Shaker type table like this. Nice finish too.

[David Keller NC]

I don't understand. Hobbiests produce works, right? Why do we even have to consider professionals (sole livelihood) in this conversation of doing and showing works? I feel like I'm not getting your point.

Well, simply that there are many, many, many hobbyists for which making things with the tools is somewhat secondary. That doesn't mean that they never make things (that would, in my book, classify them as strictly collectors, which is OK too), just that it isn't necessarily their end goal. For many, simply having a woodshop is a goal in and of itself.

In the case of pros, the vast majority regard their space, tools, and other equipment as solely focused only on output. That would mean, among other things, that they would typically have much more to post in the way of projects. The catch 22 is that most pros don't have time for discussion forums. There are exceptions, of course, but it's generally not the rule.

[David Keller NC]

In the vein of your request (showing neander work), here's an item. It's based on a circa 1780 Moravian candlebox in the Old Salem collection. This was a totally neander project, including rough prep of the wood:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=115682

Here's a couple more (these are plain vanilla tool boxes made to hold molding planes, but also totally neander projects including rough plank prep):

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=1554969&postcount=18

[Jim Koepke]

I don't understand. Hobbiests produce works, right? Why do we even have to consider professionals (sole livelihood) in this conversation of doing and showing works? I feel like I'm not getting your point.

As a hobbyist, my answer is yes, we do produce works. Currently I am not making money on my works. I have made some in the past and plan to do so in the future.

Every shelf, cabinet, saw horse, chair or other item I make is one that I do not have to go shopping for. So in a way it is saving me some money for an item I would possibly buy.

In my case, I also find pleasure in finding and fixing old tools. I am just not inspired to sell them if I do not have a need for the money. They pile up until I find something I want to buy. Then the inspiration comes to sell off all those old tools. In the mean time, they get used and tuned.

jtk

[Paul McGaha]

I'm with Sean, More pictures of the pieces please.