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Ryan Singer
12-28-2004, 12:20 AM
here's a preview of what I will be building next.. haven't decided the type of wood yet.. maybe Paduk, Walnut, quarter sawn white oak.. Hmm? cost is a big part of the decision

the concept is that both pieces rest on one another and support one another. one thing you will notice is that there is a slight illusion as you move around the table, from certain views, you only see one leg and the other end appears to defy gravity.. it's a sublime idea. trying to be a little sophisticated here

as far as joints, well, I have a couple ideas I want to maintain and that is to differentiate between horizontal and vertical planes. perhaps exposing the end grain of the vertical components will be enough, but it might pay to go the extra step and create a rabbet. one idea is to just create a big tenon out of ash that penetrates through the vertical support and then sand it flush

there it is.. clean, heavy duty and tricky... my style! :cool:

Mark Singer
12-28-2004, 12:52 AM
Ry,

The drawings are a bit large to comprehend?

Alan Turner
12-28-2004, 5:57 AM
Ryan,
A table from three "boards" certainly takes minimalist to near the limit. From your drawings, it seems that your legs are crossgrain to the top, and that might be a problem over time. Perhaps you had torsion boxes in mind. To me it is a cleaver idea, and for that reason alone it might be worth building, but it a bit stark for my taste. I may be a bit too Eighteenth Century in my design proclivities, however.
Alan

Jim Becker
12-28-2004, 9:11 AM
I think that the offset legs are a very interesting design idea, Ryan. But do discuss the joinery a little more as the drawings give the impression that the legs pierce the top and I'm wondering if that is what you intended. Alan's comments about movement are also important, but I suspect that the grain direction may be misrepresented by the drawing program you were using.

Do try to keep your drawing files no wider than 700 pixels to avoid the "stretching" that many folks will experience viewing the thread. This may require you to crop the raster output from your drawing program to focus on what you intend to display...I know I need to do that with SketchUp! for best results for forum viewing.

John Stevens
12-28-2004, 12:03 PM
Hi, Ryan. Not sure what you're asking here: whether we like the overall aesthetics of your design, or whether we like your ideas about construction and details?

If the former, I really like it. Minimalist & modern are my favorite styles, although I find such pieces boring if there isn't some feature, however small or subtle, that engages my curiosity. The through-M&T in your design does it for me, although the grain orientation is interesting, too. However, the through joint will have to be nearly perfect, and it'll have to stay that way throughout the seasons and over the years. Any gap between the edges of the legs and top, however small, will trap dust--and a dust-line on a minimalist piece will attract the eye immediately and really detract from the clean look of the piece.

If you're asking for comments on construction options, Alan's on the right track about wood movement, assuming you use solid wood. Also, even if you orient the leg grain vertically, you're not going to have much gluing surface in light of the mass of the table and the racking forces the legs will be exposed to. Orienting the leg grain vertically and cutting the top end of the leg into a number of smaller tenons whose cheeks run parallel to the length of the table top would help with that problem and perhaps create more visual interest, especially if you use a variation of the Hambidge progression to vary the width and spacing from the center to the edges.

Torsion box construction looks like a good option for this piece, for several reasons. First, as Alan pointed out, it will eliminate problems regarding wood movement. Second, it will keep the piece heavy in appearance without the actual mass. You may not see weight as a problem, but my dining room table is a 2" slab of rosewood on a trestle base made from oak that is 2" to 4" thick (these are actual dimensions, not nominal 8/4 or 16/4 stock). It's heavy as hell, and a royal pain in the a-- to move, which we need to do more often than we'd anticipated. Third, if you use a torsion box, you can incorporate bracing into the frame of the table top and legs so it's not visible on the exterior underside. Finally, you can go with your original grain orientation if you use torsion box construction. Of course, you'll be faking the appearance of a solid leg passing through a solid table top, but sometimes appearance is what matters most.

Dave Richards
12-28-2004, 2:36 PM
This what you're trying to show Ryan?

Mark Singer
12-28-2004, 2:49 PM
Dave ,

There you go again....Helping!
Thanks,
Mark

This what you're trying to show Ryan?

Dave Richards
12-28-2004, 2:50 PM
Mark, I can't help it. ;) Do you think this is what Ryan has in mind?

Dave Richards
12-28-2004, 3:03 PM
If I'm on the right track, Ryan, how about a tongue and groove mating and some sort of catches on the underside to lock the tables together? You could do long sliding dovetails and the table might be usable pulled apart a bit as in this drawing.

John Stevens
12-28-2004, 3:09 PM
Thanks, Dave, now I get it. I thought the top was a single slab with each leg piercing through it sorta like a bridle joint or M&T joint.

Tom LaRussa
12-28-2004, 3:11 PM
;) Do you think this is what Ryan has in mind?
I'm not sure.

Is each element supposed to be able to stand on its own as well as with its other half, or are the two halves each necessary to the other, as you showed it?

I shrank Ryan's pics a bit in hopes that would help, but I can't really see where the joints are, so it's still a bit of a puzzle.

Dave Richards
12-28-2004, 3:51 PM
I'm not sure I got it right. I was just guessing.

I didn't get the idea that both pieces would stand on their own. Only that they would be identical pieces and one end of each would be supported by the other's leg.

Allen Grimes
12-28-2004, 4:13 PM
From what I understand from his description and the pictures is that there is no joints and they have to be together to support eachother. I looked at his site,which (btw, Mark you are an amazing architect) lead me to believe that there is more of a meaning to this than meets the eye. I get the feeling that he likes the idea of 2 seperate entities supporting eachother, maybe it's meant to symbolize love. Correct me if I'm wrong, Ryan.

Mark Singer
12-28-2004, 5:06 PM
Allen,

Your probably correct he is really into women...we even used massive dovetails on his bed and Epoxy....he will give it a test when its complete. Now if he uses the table as a bed....who knows:cool:


From what I understand from his description and the pictures is that there is no joints and they have to be together to support eachother. I looked at his site,which (btw, Mark you are an amazing architect) lead me to believe that there is more of a meaning to this than meets the eye. I get the feeling that he likes the idea of 2 seperate entities supporting eachother, maybe it's meant to symbolize love. Correct me if I'm wrong, Ryan.

Ryan Singer
12-28-2004, 6:19 PM
Hi guys,

thanks for taking such interest in trying to understand my bad diagrams.. yes, they are a little too big, yes they don't show the proper grain direction. I will have to learn how to model grain direction correctly

thanks for helping and making those sketches. those are interesting because they look like there is a track or something in the middle edge. kinda fancy. maybe you could pull them apart. with my design you could actually slide them apart, but that is not the plan. also, about torsion boxes.. that's kinda of a good idea for this project if it were to be laminated. It could actually be interesting because you could change the direction of the grain however you want

for now I have a new diagram which hopefully shows more of what I am thinking. I foresee a problem with the cantilevered end and I am proposing to put some more tenons in the end. maybe not 3... but the idea is there

Maybe you can help me with the cantiliever idea. any suggestions on how many tenons? how big should they be? :confused:

one more bit of inspiration. what about the joke about the Rabbi who's design for an airplane wing that was inspired by Matzos? his reasoning behind it was that you could never break the Matzos along those perforated holes.. maybe I should look into making a bunch of holes to lighten it up and then laminating it all together

Mark Singer
12-28-2004, 6:26 PM
Ryan,

I think the suggestiom by John Stevens and others was for exposed joinery....tenons flushing with the top surface creating a detail...Nakashima like....I like Daves 2 different woods also.

Ryan Singer
12-28-2004, 6:33 PM
LOVE... sigh!.. It's about a pair. two equals.. not to get too mushy on you, soulmates. .. yeah. I haven't found her yet... but I am in my 30's and I have a hunch something good will happen this year. you never know ;)

basically, there are two halves that make a whole. the vertical part of one half supports the cantilever of the other half and visa versa. it's a little poetic and symbolic.


...lead me to believe that there is more of a meaning to this than meets the eye. I get the feeling that he likes the idea of 2 seperate entities supporting eachother, maybe it's meant to symbolize love. Correct me if I'm wrong, Ryan.

I would like to have meaning in my designs. thank you Allen for being able to see deeper

the bed was simple. it's basically about 3 frames. not much else. when we are horizontal, we float in dreamland. when we are vertical, we stand on two supports. so, that's it.. nothing too special about that one

Ryan Singer
12-28-2004, 6:39 PM
... you can go with your original grain orientation if you use torsion box construction. Of course, you'll be faking the appearance of a solid leg passing through a solid table top, but sometimes appearance is what matters most.

not a bad idea. maybe the leg can be hollow and I could have mitered endrgain on the top face so that it looks solid. Hmm. I will think about this one a little more. thank you John

Tom LaRussa
12-28-2004, 9:49 PM
for now I have a new diagram which hopefully shows more of what I am thinking. I foresee a problem with the cantilevered end and I am proposing to put some more tenons in the end. maybe not 3... but the idea is there
Hi Ryan,

Now that I understand what you're aiming for I have one sort of wet blanket question.

Why?

I mean, unless you're going to build the two sides out of contrasting woods, why build it that way at all?

I can't imagine that you would use the table in pulled-apart mode, in which case it's really just a very complicated way of building Alan's "three board table" no?

Ryan Singer
12-28-2004, 11:23 PM
...Now that I understand what you're aiming for I have one sort of wet blanket question.

Why?
I mean, unless you're going to build the two sides out of contrasting woods, why build it that way at all? ...

Dear Tom,
as far as pull apart mode, that was just a demonstration of what you could do with it. I don't think it would ever be used that way

why the same color of wood? good question...

I do have my reasons. but I am glad you asked because it is a complex design and there is more to it than you'd think first off. it is an interesting design from various distances. the first thing you notice about this piece when you experience it is the silloette as you walk around it. it appears to be balanced on one leg as you walk around it. when you are up closer to it, you will start to realize this piece is not just one...

sometimes I am out on a limb, doing my own thing.. sometimes I have to go down with my ship... :eek:

Earl Kelly
12-29-2004, 8:35 AM
Ryan,very interesting design. But if you're using the table together it will look like a one piece table top. I would think you would want to let everyone know it's 2 seperate pieces used as one. As it is now only you would know that, unless the top is pulled apart. How about offsetting the tops vertically 1/2" or so? Even do the tops or bases in different woods, color is a strong separating factor. Maybe this will give you a little more to think about.

Dave Richards
12-29-2004, 9:05 AM
Ryan, I see I had the leg in the wrong place. I've changed it to reflect my new understanding of what you are thinking. The "track" in the previous drawing was just a thought for linking the two pieces together. It was just drawn as a tongue and groove joint that wouldn't be glued together.

I removed the "track" though for this latest drawing. How about, instead of tenons between the leg and top, you make giant dovetails with tails cut on the leg. Or you could use a sliding dovetail on the top of each leg and continue it and the housing into the other top piece. The entire table could be a knockdown sort of thing, then.

Matthew Poeller
12-29-2004, 9:34 AM
I think that I have done this right. I tried to upload a picture to help explain something.

It seems to me that if you were to put a decent amount of pressure at either of the two places that I have circled that the table would fall apart. This pressure could be something like my grandfather with his weak knees trying to get up from the table.

Now I am not sure sure that I am right but just a thought. Being a mechanical engineer I usually deal with the things that are moving and not the things that stand still. There may be enough weight and friction between the pieces to hold it together though.

They always say though that engineers and designers/architects never got along. :D :D :D

PS-I have been trying to post a pic all morning and it has not been working. WORKING NOW!!!!

Wes Newman
12-29-2004, 10:26 AM
Ryan, What are the dimensions of this table. It seems a little unstable to me, even if the sides are resting on each other. I can just see one off my kids hanging on one side and the whole thing coming down on them(just a thought). As far as the design goes I really like it. How about a putting a thin contrasting wood on each side in the middle.

Chris Padilla
12-29-2004, 1:55 PM
Ryan,

Last I checked, you're in earthquake country!! Keep that in mind, too! :D

Cool design and a nice thought process. Keep going!

Mark Singer
12-29-2004, 2:55 PM
I think the essence of this design is the 2 pieces. To express that there should be a consistent gap of 3/8" that becomes like a visual "river" and flows through. If they were rustic slabs the gap could vary a bit with the natural edge....Just an observation ....:confused:

Jim Becker
12-29-2004, 2:58 PM
I think the essence of this design is the 2 pieces. To express that there should be a consistent gap of 3/8" that becomes like a visual "river" and flows through. If they were rustic slabs the gap could vary a bit with the natural edge....I agree with you here, Mark. A uniform gap would be in line with the clean, linear design and emphasize the two planes as being separate, yet complimentary. (And really neat with the 90º jog!) The gap down the middle of your own dining table provides for this...

Mark Singer
12-29-2004, 3:01 PM
Jim,

He could even use a Nakashima style butterfly plug that is removable but locks the 2 pieces together...Jim,,,,he will end up doing his own thing...."kids!"


I agree with you here, Mark. A uniform gap would be in line with the clean, linear design and emphasize the two planes as being separate, yet complimentary. (And really neat with the 90º jog!) The gap down the middle of your own dining table provides for this...

Jim Becker
12-29-2004, 3:09 PM
The neat thing is that there are so many possiblities on how to bring this project together. Ryan will obviously pick what's best for him, but there is a lot of fun in discussing "kewel ideas"!

Ryan Singer
12-30-2004, 11:08 PM
Hi All! you guys bring up many interesting aesthetic concerns. Jim & Dad, there is a gap between the boards. this image shows it a little better yet.

this quote was taken from Zahid Naqvi's post about design. you can follow it here... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=14085

... it is unlikely that one could create an original design in this era. A comment came back to me that, to limit oneself with such a position, is to deprive oneself of the "pot of gold" at the end of the rainbow.
After extensive reflection, of my skills, my eye, my appreciation, I am inclined to suggest that the pot of gold of creativity still exists. The difficulty one may face is looking at the box from the outside, inward....that is assuming that one can get themself out of the box.
We live in a society that bombards us with conformity from the moment we wake to the moment we close our eyes to rest. The quest for originality, therefore becomes even more paramount in my mind. Society says dipsy...I must doodle. What has created the most pleasure for me, is having fun with it along the way.

I think Peter is onto something.. and I think My father and Jim's last discussions about doing "my own thing" is probably what I should do. I am pretty motivated to get started. and thanx to your support I think I can avoid the major pitfalls.

Design is a soulful thing.... it's like surfing for some people... or prayer...
vision is passion!

Jim Becker
12-30-2004, 11:13 PM
Ah...with enough software, anything is possible!! :D (Great illustrations, Ryan!)

Seriously, that view does show the gap much better. I like the design. Something tells me that I'd still have some secretive way of positively fastening the "floating" leg joint just to insure someone bumping into the table in a drunken stupor (or the heat of passion...) doesn't dislodge things and cause a problem... :) Maybe a short, hidden sliding dovetail?

Matthew Poeller
12-31-2004, 12:52 AM
Ryan,

Well now I get it. If you notice the pictures that I was looking at a circle had the legs attached differently and probably would have the problem that I described.

Had I looked at larger pictures that you posted I would definitely have not made the same comment. I am glad that I did though because I love the illustration.

Matt

Tom LaRussa
12-31-2004, 9:32 PM
I think the essence of this design is the 2 pieces. To express that there should be a consistent gap of 3/8" that becomes like a visual "river" and flows through. If they were rustic slabs the gap could vary a bit with the natural edge....Just an observation ....:confused:
Way to go dad!

That would be to-tally kewl!

What you need is a couple slabs from the base of a tree that grew on a steep river bank, thus causing it to curve at the widest part of the trunk. Here are a couple highly autistic ... er ... "artistic" renderings of what I mean.

Tom LaRussa
12-31-2004, 9:39 PM
Ryan,

Just a couple more pesky questions from the peanut gallery:

Ryan Singer
12-31-2004, 11:13 PM
since we don't get the big slabs of wood that George Nakashima has, the top will probably be laminated boards of 8/4 and I was thinking tenons in that area for the very potential of shearing along the grain in that very spot you mentioned.

Interesting tree art! I like it! ;) :D :rolleyes: :)

Jim Becker
12-31-2004, 11:17 PM
You can get slabs like that Ryan...maybe not locally, but they are available. Hearne Hardwoods (http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/)can help you out! Nakashima is one of their customers, too...

Tom LaRussa
01-01-2005, 12:11 AM
You can get slabs like that Ryan...maybe not locally, but they are available. Hearne Hardwoods (http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/)can help you out! Nakashima is one of their customers, too...
Yep.

Others that supply big slabs include

Good Hope Hardwoods;
Gilmerwoods; (Oregon)
Righteouswoods has 4'-5' wide slabs of Bubinga;
Goby Walnut has HUGE walnut slabs; (Oregon)

A bit closer to home, (your home)...

Baker Hardwoods has some huge stuff too. (They are in Gliroy)

Wineland Walnut in Chico claims George Nakashima as a customer.

Dan Mages
01-01-2005, 1:10 AM
Way to go dad!

That would be to-tally kewl!

What you need is a couple slabs from the base of a tree that grew on a steep river bank, thus causing it to curve at the widest part of the trunk. Here are a couple highly autistic ... er ... "artistic" renderings of what I mean.

Nice rendering. Is that a walleye I see swiming there??

That looks like a nice table. Good luck with the construction!!

Dan

Dave Richards
01-01-2005, 8:11 AM
Here's a solution to Tom's concern about the top breaking at the corner of the "L". Hardwood cleats let into the the top spanning most of the width would provide the cross grain strength needed. The cleats would need to be slightly shorter than the slots and holes for screws would be slotted to allow some expansion and contraction.

Dave Richards
01-01-2005, 8:55 AM
A second cup of coffee yeilded what I think is a more elegant solution. Sliding dovetailed cleats installed before the last piece of the top is glued in place. Of course the cleat is slightly shorter than the housing. It would be a slighly snug fit. Could be glued at one end but that's not required. No hardware involved.

Jim Becker
01-01-2005, 10:28 AM
Dave, those are excellent suggestions for structural support and they can be wood or even metal considering that this top is planned to be made from 12/4 or 16/4 materal.

Tom LaRussa
01-01-2005, 1:50 PM
Nice rendering. Is that a walleye I see swiming there??

Sketchup? Who needs Sketchup? :eek: :D :p

Tom LaRussa
01-01-2005, 1:52 PM
Ryan,

Thought this was interesting, just for the superficial similarity to your project.

http://www.cassinausa.com/tables.html

Ryan Singer
01-02-2005, 2:55 PM
Hey there Tom,

the one you showed really looks like 2 separate pieces. they don't even support one another in any way. and they don't look like they'd ever fit together nicely..

but that leads me to my alternate design...

I actually had another design which I was working on as an alternate.. it had a different intention. not so unified as my original design. Infact, it was a mockery of what I had designed. sort of a personal piece about my life as of now.. I call this one "Passing Ships". My life has been a lot of dating with no success.. anyways, this piece represents that. there are two different woods that look like 2 wedges and they support one another kinda of in the same way as the other one, except these two never will look like "one" unified form. that was the idea behind 2 colored woods!

Idealy, a couple should be recognized as a couple. it is the details that makes them different. they really belong together... :eek:




Ryan,
Thought this was interesting, just for the superficial similarity to your project.
http://www.cassinausa.com/tables.html

Mark Singer
01-02-2005, 4:34 PM
Tom,

Cassina has great designer ....a great all leather dining chair I've spec'd a few times at least.


Ryan,

Thought this was interesting, just for the superficial similarity to your project.

http://www.cassinausa.com/tables.html

Chris Daigh
01-07-2005, 4:51 PM
Not to be jumping ahead, but I want to see what your ideas are for the chairs.