Where do I start with wood planes?

[Shawn Stennett]

A couple of weeks ago while at the woodworking show in Mesquite I spent a good bit of time at the booth of the Woodworking school in Waco, well they were demostrating somethings with wooden hand planes. One guy was putting decorative touches to a mitered picture frame using a set of tongue and groove planes. He was putting a stripe of walnut in the frame of maple and had a nice profile on the outside portion. I wood like to be able to do this on different projects to give them some nice touches to them, but I don't know what to get exactly. I plan on taking some classes there but when I get the money and the time off. I know I an do this with my table saw or router but am really intrigued with wooden mold planes and really all hand tools lately. I would like to start buying wood plane but don't know where to start, I have been looking on ebay but do not understand the numbers. Many of them have the same number but are different.

Is there a book that would be a good start in understandings,or good internet site?

Also I have been watching more of the Woodwright shop and enjoy learning from that since he is always using some sort of antique tool. My wife calls him the crazy suspender wood guy, lol.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Places to start:

Jim Kingshott's DVD "Special Planes" or "Specialty Planes" (not sure of name).

Clark & Williams website. They sell them, and the website has info.

Clark & Williams DVDs. "Making Traditional Side Escapement Planes". Even if you buy used, you'll need to rehab.

Bob Rozaleski's website: Logan's Cabinet Shop. Somewhere among his many podcasts, I'm sure he's got info.

I'll try to think of some more.

[Jim Koepke]

Did you see the recent episode of the Woodwright shop about making moulding for a corner cabinet?

It sounds like your interest is more toward the wooden bodied planes than metallic planes. Some of the metal bodied planes can be helpful in making moldings.

jtk

[Shawn Stennett]

Thanks everyone for your responses and will look into some of your suggestions.

Jim I am into both, I have started collecting metal planes already and enjoy them a grea deal. I would like to have both. I am not looking to get rid of my router just yet but would like to play around with the woodies. I am just wanting to gain experience everywhere I can. I just want to start with a few andsee where it goes, but would like to start buy being able to inlay a small detail like I saw the guy do at the show. Like I said earlier he put a piece of maple about 1/8 by 1/8 into a walnut frame. I loved the contrast and like the idea of doing it by hand.

By the way this is the best forum I have been apart of, everyone is so helpful.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello,

Perhaps a bit off topic, if you're interested in making planes, try David Finck's book. It's also a great general introduction to hand tools. I bought the book, one of his blades and made a Krenov style plane. The plane works well, but the learning on the way has been tremendous--I advanced several steps in my use of metal planes by learning to make a wood one work (I use metal mostly because I have a unheated shop and keeping the woodies tuned is a challenge....)

Good luck!

C

Here's a link to the book:
http://www.davidfinck.com/book.htm

[Mark Baldwin III]

The book "Wooden Planes and How to Make Them" is also very informative (available from Lee Valley). I have it along with Mr. Finck's book. I keep meaning to get a hold of JK's DVD that Chuck mentioned, I like watching Mr. Kingshott's videos. I also decided to just drop a bit of cash on buying some old wooden planes as well. They have a value to me, sharing a name with the maker, but I wanted something that I could hold in my hand and study. Even if I don't use them, they are something to learn from.

[Johnny Kleso]

I have a set ot two of Hollows and rounds and they are all different sizes as a lot or over 100 years old and either where not made to true standard or have changed sizes with use..

Best way I found is to ask the eBay seller to measure the width of the blade..

Pickings on ebay seem to be slimmer than they use to be..

[Joshua Clark]

Where to start with molding planes.. first, finding good, usable molders can be difficult. Many dealers wouldn't know a usable plane from a junker. Buying from eBay can be a crap shoot. You really want a plane that was properly cared for, hasn't warped, and has a reasonably good blade in it. There are enough molders out there that you shouldn't have to settle for a crummy plane. I personally prefer British planes because they were better made than most American planes, were cared for better, and are usually configured with a higher pitch iron which is an advantage when working hardwoods. British planes are usually less expensive as well since they are less desirable to most American collectors.

There are a couple of common and useful profiles that I can recommend:

Side bead- somewhere in the 1/8-3/8 range. A very simple profile and an easy plane to use. A simple bead ads some interest to an edge and can hide gaps between ship-lap or tongue and groove panels. As long as the blade is ground properly there isn't too much that can go wrong with these. They are also common as dirt.

Skew Rabbet- some where in the 3/4-1 1/2 inch range. Handy for all sorts of trimming and fitting jobs. These are dead simple to setup and use. The skew blade makes nice curly shavings too.

Tongue and Groove pair- Find a pair in a useful size like 5/8, 3/4, or 7/8. They are just really cool planes to use.The grooving plane can also be used as a fixed plow for making grooves for inlay, as you mentioned earlier, or for small work like drawer bottoms.

Moving Fillister- one of the best wooden planes to have in the shop IMHO. It could replace all of those rabbeting planes and router bits, plus it's more comfortable to use. The nicker allows it to work cross-grain and the fence and depth stop regulate the width and depth of cut. There are more moving pieces with this plane so there's more to look out for. Generally speaking, look at the boxing at the corner of the mouth, make sure it has a decent blade, and that the nicker holds well.

That's four planes to start with, all easy to find and setup. From there the sky's the limit- a few pairs of hollows and rounds are good to have. A small thumbnail or ogee is also nice to have for putting a nice touch on an edge. Then there are dados, which are just incredibly fun to use. After that you're hooked and there's no turning back.

Josh

Always happy to give someone a shove down a new slippery slope.

[David Weaver]

Following Joshua's post, I gave up on H&Rs. Thanks to Larry's fabulous video, probably the best instructional video i've ever seen on anything anywhere, it is easier to learn to make them the way you want them than it is to find matching pairs, at least for a reasonable price.

I would still buy an old moving fillister plane if you find one complete and not dried out and with a good iron. Just keep an eye out. I found one that needed a little bit of tuning for $25. They're nice planes to use.

I (personally, though opinions can differ) would also buy the skew and straight rabbet planes, as well as the T&Gs. They're not terribly hard to find, and the skew and straight rabbets are usually cheap enough to make them worth getting.

I have a lot of old H&Rs that I got for less than $10 per thinking I would figure out their use. In the end, I'm going to end up dumping them on ebay. They have various maladies that mean fixing each and matching their soles would take a large fraction of what it takes to make a new one in terms of time, and their pitch is all over the place.

That said, if you do run into a barely used half set that someone had for less than market value, and they're in a pitch you want with fine mouths, nothing wrong with buying them, I just have never been that lucky, and coming up with planes and trying to match them and refurbish them has been endless frustration and wasted time.

But, again, no such similar frustration getting a lot of the other planes, including beading and dado planes. They have all needed work, though.

[Johnny Kleso]

There is two sets of H&Rs on eBay one 18 piece and one 14 piece set..
18 is a full half set, most people dont buy a fcomplete set of 36

The set with 14 has a good buy it now price of about $25 a plane and someone needs to snag it now :)

Buying sets or parts of sets IMHO is the only way to buy them as buying them one at a time will make you crazy with all the different sizes..

[Joshua Clark]

The set with 14 has a good buy it now price of about $25 a plane and someone needs to snag it now :)




That Greenslade set of 14 is how Hollows and Rounds are usually found- it's a mix of mostly unmatched pairs with a few side beads thrown in. They are decent planes though, with skewed high-pitch irons but showing a lot if use. Finding a true matched half set in usable shape is a rarity, at least at affordable prices. That Marples set looks nice but those planes too have seen a lot of use and have been refinished at some point. I think the pricing is "optimistic" :)

I agree that buying matched pairs is the way to go to assemble a working set. You can start with the sizes you're likely to use most often and build from there. The smallest and largest sizes are seldom used for most cabinet size work. Buying pairs is also a lot less expensive vs. trying to find a complete set.

Josh

[David Weaver]

Buying pairs is also a lot less expensive vs. trying to find a complete set.

Josh

Especially if you have the discipline to buy planes only when you need specific pairs.

I don't have that kind of discipline.

I think it takes me about 6 hours to make a pair of H&Rs, including making the iron from starrett flat stock, and there is little to do with power tools - they are a good hand tool project.

They are so small that if you have a good rabbet plane that can cut an inch and a half rebate without tearout (or at least without much), using power tools only saves much time if you do a bunch at once.

I'll count the amount of time it takes next time (i'm a slow worker, too), it's worth noting because there are a lot of people who probably have everything they'd need to make planes other than the floats.

The compromise is that my detail work isn't as tidy as larry's, but the planes are a lot cleaner than any of my old planes when they're done, and i'll be room temperature before another user owns them and can frown on my detail work.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Shawn,
Somehow your post/question got posted twice in two separate threads. I responded in the other one (with the same title) but since this one seems to be more active, I'll re-add my suggestion here as well.


...am really intrigued with wooden mold planes and really all hand tools lately. I would like to start buying wood plane but don't know where to start, I have been looking on ebay but do not understand the numbers. Many of them have the same number but are different.

Ignore the numbers. I'll get to why in a second.

How long is your workbench? I ask because it will make a difference in how long of a molding you can make. I usually only need (and prefer) to make one long length of molding that I can then miter and wrap a case with. However, I have an 8' work bench. This is something to think about, as you cannot make moldings longer than your workbench, without turning to some kind of heavy, stiff planing beam or sticking board. If you have a short workbench, you may be stuck making multiple short lengths of molding as opposed to one nice long length. Making short lengths adds more challenge because the profile of one is not likely to be an exact match of the second (or third, etc.), even when using dedicated complex molding planes. This makes mitering a little more challenging as the profile at the corners won't match and so you'll likely have to do some carving at the corners to match up the miter. Not difficult, but something to think about.

With that said, let's assume you can make long lengths of molding, either with your current workbench, or by making a rigid sticking board to plane the moldings on. Hollows and rounds is where I would recommend you start your search. Complex molding planes are nice when you need to make multiple pieces of identical molding, but they only make one profile, and they are also more of a challenge to get tuned up right. On the other hand, with a few hollows and rounds, and a rabbet plane or two, you can make just about any profile, and they are super easy to tune up.

Back to the numbers. Like I said before, ignore them. They have no meaning, except to the original maker of the planes. O.K. this isn't entirely true, but you still don't need to pay attention to them, and here's why. The numbering system was not consistent from one maker to another. When the numbering concept was developed (18th century molding planes typically were not marked or numbered), the English developed a "system" for the numbering where the planes were numbered in 16ths of an inch, up to about 1", and then in 8ths of an inch for planes over 1" wide. So if this numbering system were used properly and consistently, a #4 plane would be 1/4" wide (i.e. 4/16ths), a #6 plane would be 3/8" wide (6/16ths), etc.

This works ok if you stick mainly to early English molding planes. However, when you look at the American made planes, which are much more common on ebay, the "system" goes out the window. Some makers followed the English system closely, while others completely ignored it and went their own way. Auburn for example started their numbering at #2 for a 1/4" plane and went up from there. So the numbers are off when compared to the traditional English method (i.e. #2 was 1/4", #4 was 3/8", #6 was 1/2", etc.). To confuse things even more, Ohio tool decided to just number their planes 1-18. In their catalog, #1 was 1/4", #2 was 3/8", #3 was 1/2", etc. Plus, some American makers changed their numbering system, so two planes from the same maker may not even match if they were made during different time periods. So if you try to play the numbers game, you are likely to end up with a bunch of planes in the same size, unless you stick to a single maker (and sometimes even IF you stick to a single maker).

There is a bright side though in that the numbers really don't matter. What's important is the width of the iron. See, hollows and rounds use simple geometry to their advantage. The profile of the iron is 1/6th of a circle. This means that the width of the iron is identical to the radius of the arc. So a 1/4" wide iron makes a 1/4" radius arc, or a 1/2" diameter circle (as long as the sole and iron are properly shaped to a proper 1/6th of a circle).

This is a good thing, as it allows one to easily determine what plane to use for a particular molding design. Making a 3/4" thumbnail edge on a table top? Grab a hollow plane with a 3/4" wide iron. Want to make a 1" ogee molding (made up of a 1/2" convex curve and a 1/2" concave curve)? Grab a pair of hollow and round planes with 1/2" wide irons.

Since all you are interested in is the width of the iron, you can ignore the maker and the number and instead focus on getting planes with irons in the particular width you need (ask the seller to measure the iron or measure it yourself if you can visually inspect the plane). The smaller sizes are the most useful for furniture work and small projects. Sizes from 1/4" to about 7/8" are my most used. I rarely use the planes wider than this.

Once you've tuned up a few pair of H&Rs, then you'll be ready to try your hand at complex molders. But even with a handful of complex molders at my disposal, my most used molding planes are still the H&Rs. There's an article on tuning up hollows and rounds that will be coming out in a certain popular magazine in a couple months that might interest you. If you don't already get the magazine, you might think about picking up a copy ;).

[Joshua Clark]

Robert gives some excellent advice on H&R numbering schemes..



Since all you are interested in is the width of the iron, you can ignore the maker and the number and instead focus on getting planes with irons in the particular width you need (ask the seller to measure the iron or measure it yourself if you can visually inspect the plane). .

I'll add only two things: First, not all British makers used the standard numbering system- that would make things far too easy! I just sold a pair of Greenslade No. 8 H&Rs to a buyer who assumed they were 1/2in. wide. It turns out they were 5/8 which had us both scratching our heads. Second, with skewed hollows and rounds the width of the iron is going to be a little to a lot wider than the actual width of cut because of the skew. In this case you should be able to measure the depth of the mortise escapement down towards the mouth to get the actual measurement. This is only usually going to affect British planes since American planes weer hardly ever skewed.

Josh

[Brian Kent]

I have held off on this recommendation because this is not the topic, but this is my favorite wooden jack plane:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E105%2E9050&dept_id=13602


And these hollows and rounds might be worth looking into:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E120%2E1050&dept_id=13602

[David Weaver]

The mujingfang hollows and rounds aren't used the same way people would use american hollows and rounds. I'm not sure what someone in the western world would do with the muji H&Rs, but i'm sure they're well made.

However, the jack planes that come from muji are a bargain. I've gotten, I guess, about 6 or 7 different muji planes, and all of them have been very well done and with extremely tough irons.