Dado cutting

[Mark Baldwin III]

Can anyone suggest a hand tool only method for cross cut dados? I have an LV small plow plane. Would that do it if I scored the layout lines? It would seem otherwise that I would have a nasty bit of tearout. I could go to my dad's place and use his table saw, but I have an unreasonable fear of table saws and prefer just to stay away from them whenever possible. Thanks!

[harry strasil]

mark deep with a knife, then cut at an angle in the waste and pop it out, then use a stair saw in the cut, that's what stair saws are for stopped dadoes in stair stringers. Why are you so scared of a tablesaw, its just another tool, you should have respect for a tablesaw, when you don't, its time to be scared, cause then they will get you.

[Adam Cherubini]

There's a plane for that. (sorry Apple).

Dado planes work great. Probably just as fast as a router and easier to set up. Not sure who's making them new. Check out your favorite old tool dealer or on-line auction.

Failing that, you can knife them in then cut the shoulders with a x-cut back saw or simply chop them in and excavate with a firmer. More cumbersome, but not terribly time consuming.

Adam

[harry strasil]

I made what I call a Saw plane, a variation of a stair saw. I use it mostly on end grain for rebates, but it works well without the fence.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sawplane.jpg

[Mark Baldwin III]

Good tips guys. I will give them a go as well. Harry, I did say it was an unreasonable fear;). I just don't spend a lot of time with certain tools. One miss and my career is over. One of these days, I intend to get better acquainted with the table saw though. It is an infinitely useful tool.
I tried three different times since asking the question. Used my small plow plane, and here's what I got. The first pic show two attempts with marking gauges, one pin gauge, and one wheel gauge. As you can see it was tear out city. Not deep enough of a score. The second pic, I scored lightly and followed with a thin kerf saw to a deeper level. It was much improved. Pic number three is my excuse to build another woodie (a dedicated shooting board plane). I used my Hock to square up the end grain.
I think I kind of incorporated a little of what you each suggested, so I think I'm on the right track here.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Harry, your saw plane is awesome! I like that idea a lot.

[harry strasil]

When using a marking knife to make a deep cut like you need, first mark lightly with a gauge, then using a 12 inch rule, (I use the rule from an old combination square that the cast part went south) with some self stick sandpaper on one side, the sandpaper makes a non slip surface so the ruler won't slide while you use the marking knife along one side.

[Dhananjay Nayakankuppam]

Dado planes are available - both in metal and wood versions. Usually, they will have skewed cutters and scoring blades ahead of the cutters to cut the wood fibres, thereby making it easier for the blade to lift up the wood. They can be expensive. I use the following method if the piece is not too wide. Mark the dado with a scoring knife. Use a crosscut saw and saw down to the depth of the dado (if the piece is wider, you could switch to a panel saw or a stair saw). I then use a chisel to pop out most of the waste. This is easy to do. The only problem is that the wood will break ahead of the chisel and if you are careless, you can find that the wood broke ahead of your chisel to a greater depth than you would like. So, I usually start at about halfway down and go gently with the chisel - many small taps rather than Odin's thunderbolt is the way to go. When you get close to the final depth, you could switch to a small shoulder plane if the width of the dado is big enough, which it often is. Again,the shoulder plane width may be smaller than the dado width in which case, proceed cautiously - you will be registering the side of the shoulder plane against one side of the dado for a bit and then against the other side - you need to make sure you do not let the plane tip to one side. The work itself is actually very easy - given the way the wood fails, it takes very little effort, which is more reason to stay alert when you are doing this.
Cheers, DJ

[Steve Branam]

I show an example of making a hand-cut stopped dado with backsaw and chisel here: http://www.closegrain.com/2010/08/horse-care-tote-part-2.html. It also shows several other operations with chisels and plow and rabbet planes. You can click on the photos for larger images to pick out some of the details better.

Part one of the project (linked at the top of that page) also shows cutting the dovetails if you're interested.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Cool! More ideas to try. I like to see something from several ways and then take what works for me. I'm thinking my next try will be: score the lines, use the chisel to open the line, saw to depth, then finish with the plane (or chisel...if the plane doesn't do it).
Steve, those are some really nice old planes you have there. I've been thinking about getting a match plane at some point myself.

[Roy Lindberry]

If your plow is a woody, you might think about adding knickers - or build one with knickers. They will give you a clean score with every pass.

[Russell Sansom]

Mark...
I suppose this has come out in the comments, but I'd re-emphasize that your "score" lines across grain need to be clean and accurate knife cuts. They should be as deep as the wood species, your cutting resources, and safety allow. You can do some pretty gross stuff to the "channel" so long as these two lines are perfect. Scoring like this is a common everyday operation (for example, the tenons on the apron of a table require 32 such cross grain knife cuts). Might as well master it now.

A hand router will do a very good job on the bottom of the dado (never quite as perfectly as a plane). But when the router might mar the face, there's the bother of having to stick a couple runners on the face so the router can glide on them instead.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mark

Here is a link to a pictorial on sliding dovetails by hand: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsbyhand1.html

Making a dado is no different - just at a different angle. There is a guide for a saw that you can make. Or just chisel a fence and saw against that. Remove the waste with a chisel and then level the floor with a router plane.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/SlidingDovetailsByHand1_html_m2471ba9f.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Baldwin III]

I was definitely not scoring deep enough! Will go deeper with this evening's practice round. I know Harry suggested using sand paper to hold my guide, or I might try clamps instead. Will see which works best for me. The last one I did last night I scored a bit deeper and used a chisel to waste a little bit from the inside. That helped a bit.
Derek, I like that tutorial. I found your web site some time ago and have read (and re-read) most of your tool building stuff. Haven't gotten to the furniture part yet...
This exercise is really reinforcing the need for good saws for me. The couple of little projects I've done before didn't require any cuts like this. The modified stair saw may be an upcoming tool project. Think I'll try building a new OWT plane as well, version one wasn't very good and just got chucked on the shelf. Thanks again guys, your input is greatly appreciated!

[Trevor Walsh]

I use Derek's method for dadoes as well, somewhere on my list is a dovetail trimming plane and guide blocks to cut sliding dovetails. .

[Rob Young]

On several occasions I've just used my combination square, marking knife, couple of chisels, dovetail saw and router plane. The router plane is optional but pretty nifty for making multiples with the same depth.

I think I got this from both Harry and from the Bernard Jones books (ala Harry).

Assume we are adding a shelf to a small case. And hoping I write this clearly and don't skip a step cause I will definitely hear otherwise around here!

1) Plane shelf to finished thickness. Optional, add a small rabbet to the shelf so that your dado can be made a touch thinner and the rabbet shoulder can be used to both square and hide the joint. Any edge detail for the shelf can also be done now.

2) Use your workpiece to mark out the dado width. A couple of knife nicks at the corner. Extend these along the width of the side or if doing a stopped dado, to the end of the dado. Knife them such that the vertical side of the cut defines the outer wall of the dado. That is to say you will be putting the bevel of the marking knife to the waste side of the cut.

3) Mark for the depth of the dado using a marking gauge. It helped me to transfer the sides down to meet the depth line. YMMV.

4) If you can't make a deep enough line with the knife a chisel can be used to deepen the scribe. This makes a nice track for your saw to ride. Best if the saw can span the whole side but I've done one where my saw was shorter than the side was wide and it worked OK.

5) Since I don't do this nearly often enough I use a board to guide my saw. I place the saw in the scribe line and slide up a board to the waste side. This is clamped down and now I have something to help me stay vertical. This isn't terribly necessary but I felt more confident doing it this way. Cut them all day long and I could probably skip it as it is a bit fussy.

6) Saw down to your depth line. Repeat for the other side of the dado, remember the saw cuts down into the waste area so position it accordingly. This is where a stair saw is nice or any backsaw that has the clamping depth stop. But not a big deal to work by eye.

7) Use a chisel close to the width of your dado to start popping out waste. Be careful you don't blow out the ends. Work ends to the middle. With a long paring chisel you can smooth the bottom easily. I did one with a bench chisel bevel down and it worked but it was more trouble than using a router plane. Sharp chisels and router plane blades make all the difference.

8) Fit your shelf. If the shelf is too tight you can try to widen the dado (Stanley 98 & 99 planes for example) or you can modify the shelf. This is where having the rabbet on the shelf helps. You can deepen the rabbet just a smidge without altering the rest of the shelf that may have some kind of edge detail.

For a stopped dado, you saw down similar to half-blind dovetails. You have the option of overcutting at the stopped end to saw deeper or stop at the line and chisel more. Your choice.

And one more comment for a long post. If I have more than one or two dados to cut I'll just set up the tablesaw and dado stack. But I don't worry much about the width of the stack except to cut just a hair narrow (sometimes several hairs). Then I rabbet the shelf. And I don't cut quite to depth as I'll go back with my router plane and clean up the bottom and get rid of the "bat ears". It is a cheap dado set so the router plane helps a lot. Also works great for dados in plywood where sometimes the plywood bows up a bit in the middle. Now your dado isn't the same depth everywhere. Router plane fixes that in a hurry.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Tonight's attempt. I would've done more, but I went to go and work on a bike this evening for a bit. Them choppers need luvin' too! Anyway there is a marked improvement. Mind you, I'm just kinda going through everyone's ideas and giving different techniques a try.
Tonight's technique: clamped a square to my piece, used a marking knife to make a deep score (several passes), used a chisel to cut away from the waste side of the line, used a Japanese dovetail saw to cut down the line, went to town with a chisel. My bottom was very rough at this point. So I pulled my first shop made tool (pic #2) from under the dust and put it to work.
I built this little guy knowing nothing about how a plane works. I'd seen pictures of how a Krenov plane is put together and thought...oh! I can try something! Believe it or not, this thing is pretty good at cutting with the grain when you line up a guide for it to follow. The main problem is that you have to adjust the blade for each cut.

[Steve Branam]

That's the real key, just try stuff that people recommend. You'll find some things you really like. Even some you may not like might end up being just the thing you need in a particular situation. Nifty little plane!

[Charlie Stone]

Mark,
I can sympathize with your fear of tablesaws. I wouldn't say I am scared of them, but I always treat mine with the utmost respect and a very gentle touch. Sleds really help make them safer to use. As you muster the bravado to use one, you might spend a bit of time with a hand held electric router. Slap a guide fence on your work and you're off to the races for dados. This is of course, if you are ever in a spot where you have little time and lots of cuts to make. I also value hand tools and the time spent doing my work in quiet mode, but sometimes the need for speed or convenience just wins.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Charlie-The last time I used a table saw (for some reason) it just put a nasty taste in my mouth. It's an experience thing though. I have some upcoming ideas that will probably require it, and I just need to pay attention to what I'm doing.
The main reason I am almost exclusively into hand tools is that's what I have room for. I live in a 750 sq ft workman's bungalow (the rest of the world might know them as Milwaukee and Chicago style). I love my tiny little house. But there just isn't room here for power tools. I also love the quiet. My mitre saw is too noisy for me. It has a purpose, and it has a place. My only other power tools are a belt sander and a pad sander. I can't remember the last time that I used either. At my dad's house, we went in together on some tools. There's a band saw, drill press, grinder, sander, and table saw. I got him a router for Christmas last year. So, I do have access to those tools, if need be.

[Russell Sansom]

Mark,
One further suggestion now that I see you last photos: Switch to poplar for a set of trials. It will let you succeed in some ways that the oak will not. Cherry or maple will also give you a much better surface for those initial knife cuts. I know you're struggling with several things at once, but your cuts need to be much more precise and flawless than they are in your pictures. I wonder what you're using for a scoring knife? Think brand-new X-acto #11 blade as a benchmark for minimum sharpness.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I was starting to think that this grainy, ornery oak was working against me! My marking knife is a Hock, and now that I think about it, I haven't sharpened it since I first got it.

[Charlie Stone]

I had one kick back on me in high school .. more recently, my wife had one kick back on her. In both cases, it was because we turned the board in the cut.
The link below talks about how to make a sled for the table saw. They are VERY helpful and will almost instantly make you feel more comfortable.
http://woodgears.ca/delta_saw/sled.html

[Mark Baldwin III]

Charlie- My dad and I remodeled his basement this spring. I can't remember exactly what we were up to at the moment, but the table saw sent a piece clear across the room with some REAL velocity. Learned a new meaning to the word "respect" at that moment!
Back to dado's...I may still pop down into the basement and adjust fire a little bit and make another practice run tonight. The "dado-a-day" program:D

[Charlie Stone]

okay .. I put on my problem solving hat and thought about it. If I had to do dados on a regular basis using only hand tools and keeping cost down. I would use a stair saw set to the depth of the dado, and make a series of cuts along the length of the dado 1/4" or less apart. Then use a chisel to remove the waste. So long as the dados aren't to long, I don't think it would be a bad approach. For larger or longer dados, I would head off to the table saw.

Also, your limited space came into my mind as I read an article in FWW Tools and Shops today. There is a guy living in an apartment who has to store ALL of his tools in a 5x5 storage closet. He built a custom work bench which has a circular saw inverted under it to act as a tablesaw, a router next to it sharing the fence, a jig saw mounted under the table with the blade up going into some guide bearings as a sub for a scroll saw and a few other really cool things, all built into a 5' bench on wheels. Pretty cool setup for someone who occasionally needs a few power tools but cant or wont spare the space for full size dedicated hardware.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I think the stair saw is the way to go. I saw that Adria has the ECE saws listed, I believe they're under $50. I may get one. I like your idea of making the secondary cuts as well.
I've heard of that micro work shop, but I don't think I read the full article.

As a side note...Since I live by myself and I have a spare bedroom, there is a plan being put into place. My second bedroom is about to become a work shop. I will do most of the heavy stuff in the basement...big time planing, any portable powertools, etc. Upstairs will be for lighter work. I just talked to Gabi at Diefenbach benches yesterday. I will be getting a set of legs and stretchers with hardware. If anyone is looking for a new bench...they have a lot of stuff on sale right now and it might be worth looking into. Before vices I'm looking at a sub $200 bench. I believe it's $25 a pair for leg assemblies, and under $20 a pair for stretchers. At least in the sizes I want. I'm going to make the top myself and get the vices as money allows.

[Mark Baldwin III]

As Russell suggested, I grabbed some softer wood. The oak I have is a serious PITA. Each attempt is getting a little better. I've now moved to marking the line, chiseling the line, saw the line, chisel out the middle. In the next week or so, I will either buy a small router plane, or take another shot at making one. Thanks for the help guys, without this kind of input I would be completely lost.

[Charlie Stone]

looking good man

[Joshua Clark]

Mark-

Man, you would love a wooden dado plane. They are so easy to use, wicked fast, and a lot of fun.

Here's a push down the wooden plane slope for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgdV4eHrXTE


They won't work for stopped dados, though. Stopped dados are the bane of my existence :)

Josh

[Charlie Stone]

They won't work for stopped dados, though. Stopped dados are the bane of my existence :)

Josh


Josh,

For stopped dados wouldnt you just use a mortise chisel to define the end and put a stop block in so you always stop at the same spot?

[Mark Baldwin III]

Mark-
Here's a push down the wooden plane slope for you:
Josh

Already falling down that slope, and fast! The only reason I haven't really gone to the dado plane is that I would need one for each size dado. But come to think of it, in practice, I would only probably need two sizes. Maybe three. I like wooden planes, I've four antiques (pre 1850) and some new ones.
I think the method I will end up going to is using a stair saw, chisel, and router plane. That's not to say that I'm not going to find an excuse to buy a dado plane eventually.
A thought that I've had over the last couple of days is this (and stop me when I say something stupid here): how about a double bladed stair saw, with a spacer between the blades that defines the width of the dado. You could fence one side to ensure a straight cut. It would also keep the sides parallel to each other. The way I picture it in my head, the spacer would act as the depth stop. Someone out there has probably already built it at some point.