Favorite way to remove rust...

[Kyle Stiefel]

Hey folks,

Well, after more then 2.5 years I finally got my tools out of long term storage in Alaska. All the effort in protecting from the salty island air in SE Alaska wasn't successful. I will now have a much smaller shop, not setting up the majority of things including my Woodsucker DC (love that thing) as I am renting.

To the point whats your favorite ways to remove rust. I am always interested if there is a faster more efficient way of accomplishing a task. So let the verbage fly folks.

Here are a few pics of the carnage.


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_OgztXw9RRGg/TNXrSAFQSdI/AAAAAAAADdM/yl80G2EYlg8/s800/Jointer%20I.jpghttp://lh4.ggpht.com/_OgztXw9RRGg/TNXrSSMpU7I/AAAAAAAADdQ/stscDk1okQk/s800/Lathe.jpg

[Carroll Courtney]

Wire wheel on angle grinder,but safety glasses is a must----Carroll

[Logan William]

Wire wheel on angle grinder,but safety glasses is a must----Carroll

Only on surfaces that don't matter. The wire wheel will remove more material then you expect and flat surfaces won't be flat anymore. BoShield makes a Rust Remove that I recently picked up, I haven't tried it yet but have heard good results. Also do a google search for electrolysis, lots of old iron that gets restored gets stripped of paint and rust via electrolysis.

[Lee Koepke]

naval jelly, sanding pad, elbow grease, patience.....:D

[Bryan Morgan]

That doesn't look too bad. Some Rust Free and gray 3M pads should fix you up.

[Bryan Morgan]

Only on surfaces that don't matter. The wire wheel will remove more material then you expect and flat surfaces won't be flat anymore. BoShield makes a Rust Remove that I recently picked up, I haven't tried it yet but have heard good results. Also do a google search for electrolysis, lots of old iron that gets restored gets stripped of paint and rust via electrolysis.

Its Rust Free. Works good but make sure you are in a well ventilated area or be prepared for some burning nose hairs. Also, don't leave it on more than a minute or two or the metal turns black... which is why you use the grey 3M pads.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Barkeeper's friend and a scotch pad.

http://www.bestcleaningproducts.com/product_images/bkf_sm.jpg

[Ben Hatcher]

I use BoShield and a greed 3m pad. It works pretty well for me.

[Kyle Stiefel]

I am loving it folks as I have restricted myself over this past period of time on site visitation, to depressing not being able to make dust in a meaningful fashion until now...

Thanks,
Kyle

[Dave Cav]

That looks like mostly surface rust. I would go after it with a single edge razor blade scraper first (it will remove a lot of the rust) followed by medium steel wool and WD40 or something similar.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

I'm not big on WD40 as a protectant. It just oils things up and makes a mess, IMHO. Heck, the stuff barely works to lubricate rusty bolts.

I use a coat or two of Johnson's Paste Wax over any exposed surfaces once it's all cleaned up and spit shined. Puts a good hard protectant layer over it and will not transfer to wood.

[Joshua Culp]

I have very good success with a product named Evapo-Rust. It's meant to submerge parts in, so you would have to dam off a horizontal surface with clay then flood it like a rice paddy.

[Kirk Poore]

Wire wheel on angle grinder,but safety glasses is a must----Carroll

I'd go just a little more elaborate--a knotted wire cup wheel on the angle grinder. Works very fast, doesn't throw wires nearly as much.

Kirk

[Michael Flores]

Why doesn't anybody use CLR?

[Gregg Feldstone]

Scott, You meant to say "protectant" not "protestant", right?

I use Topsaver from Empire Manufacturing. With more heavy rust I normally have to repeat it a few days later, as it draws moisture out of the deeper poors and actually promotes a new layer of mild surface rust which is easily removed. After Topsaver you have to apply some type of sealant to keep out moisture. To this date I have found NOTHING which is safe for wood which will work for more than a few days. Empire claims their Table Top Lubricant does the trick but I still get new rust in a few days. I have tried just about everything. A friend recently told me to melt beeswax into the pores and buff it out....haven't tried this yet.

To make the rust removal easier I use gray or red non-abrasive velcro backed synthetic pads on my Festool Rotex DA sander. I don't get scratches and save my arms. An RA sander works also, but takes a bit longer. I live on an island in the Gulf of Mexico 1/2 mile from the ocean.

Has anyone tried the beeswax method??

[Bryan Wuest]

For really small items like pliers, I use naval jelly. For items that are a little larger or have hard to reach areas, I use electrolysis. For larger flat areas I have also used naval jelly or a wire wheel. As long as it is only light surface rust, I don't worry about the rust on my lathe bed, it actually helps the tail stock grip better.

[Rich Engelhardt]

You guys seriously put acid on your tools and attack nice flat surfaces with something as aggressive as wire wheels?

I'm way too timid to try that.

[Tom Rick]

Soak in light oil or WD40, scrape down with razor blade and buff out with Scotch-Brite pad.

[Russell Johnson]

I use a product called "The Works" it's a toilet bowl cleaner that costs ~$1 at Wal-Mart. Put it on there 30 minutes give a little scrap little more 30 minutes and nearly all of it will come off.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Gregg: Why yes... Yes I did.. Oddly, protectant is not in Firefox's internal spell check and it botched and plugged that in, instead. :p

[Kyle Iwamoto]

No offense intended, but aren't you a little late for getting the tools out? It's time for winter, (for you guys up there) and hiding the tools.....

As far as the rust, +1 on the Barkeepers Friend. I use it clean rust all the time. BKF and WD-40 with a scotchbrite pad. WD is not good for long term, I use Boeshield and paste wax.

Sanding/cleaning with any power tool is out of the question in MY book. Even a RO sander will take off metal and make your surface not flat. Since that looks like a spiral head jointer, I'd say whomever made it went through a lot of trouble to make the bed flat. And I agree that a wire wheel will remove metal faster than you may think.

Just my $0.02.

[Don Alexander]

YIKES some of these suggestions are good and some are just plain ruinous if you want to keep your tools in good condition don't even get near them with an anglegrinder/wire wheel type rig ..... stuff like WD40 will remove rust but then you have to remove the WD40 or ruin alot of nice wood when you go to use the tool/s :eek::eek:

speed isn't nearly as important as what you are left with when the rust attack is behind you

a little elbow grease and more importantly some common sense will make you alot happierin the long run :)

[Bryan Wuest]

YIKES some of these suggestions are good and some are just plain ruinous if you want to keep your tools in good condition don't even get near them with an anglegrinder/wire wheel type rig ..... :)

The wire wheel I use, and I am sure most others are referring to, has brass "whiskers." The only way it will damage metal is if you run it in one spot for so long that the whiskers break off and you start to grind with the head itself.

[Steven Hsieh]

Brush on Evapo-Rust. Let it sit for 30 minute, use wire wool and scrub, Wipe clean, if more rust re-apply again.

[Chris Parks]

I have removed a lot of rust from old machines many times as I only buy old machines. An ROS and successive finer grits of wet and dry paper using kerosene as a lubricant. It does not remove metal and even if it did I bet no one could measure the amount. It is metal not wood and to remove any meaningful amounts of metal would require more than a wire brush or a piece of wet and dry paper. Mind you in this case a bit of elbow grease is all that is needed from what I can see.

[Carroll Courtney]

OOOOOOOOONOOOOOOO,I'm removing metal.I like the cup wire wheel ideal thanks-----Carroll

[greg a bender]

I've had very good results using Rust-Free and 000 steel wool.
This on tools stuck in a damp basement for years. It will stain cast iron if left on too long. And it does stink, but it does work!

Greg

[Mike Konobeck]

Another Barkeepsers Friend friend. You may have to use a more aggressive way to get the deeper rust off but don't use a wire wheel or other abrasives that are too aggressive on things that need to stay flat. Use a ROS with higher grit like 220 and/or sandpaper on a flat board. With the sandpaper and a board you can use oil to help lube minimize the work. Make sure you increase the grit up to around 400-600 if you want a truly smooth surface. If you don't care about a few scratches from lower grits then don't worry about it.

After you get it to the point where most of the rust is off with the power tools or sandpaper/board then go to the BKF. Use an oil with the BKF. Do not mix with water. Mixing with an oil and using the green Scotch pads does amazing things. I managed to pull nearly all of the stains out of a piece of equipment I just picked up. NOTHING else worked. Didn't even have to work that hard at it but plan on spending some time. Give it a couple rounds to get is really clean.

CLEAN with mineral spirits before proceeding and let it dry. Don't move to the next step until the mineral spirits has evaporated. Give it a while. Don't know what the magic number is but you don't want it effecting the protectant you put on next.

Follow that up with Boeshield or other metal protectant. Make sure you let the Boeshield soak in for a while then wipe off. Boeshield is sticky if you let it "dry". Once you wipe off the Boeshield so it is not sticky then follow up with Topshield or other surface lube.

Do a search for Barkeepers Friend and you should find a few posts. This is the thread that turned me onto using BKF. We use it around the house to clean things like stainless pots/pans and ceramic. Never thought about using it on a tool until I had to. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1094629&highlight=cast+iron+stains&page=4

[Karl Brogger]

I'd go just a little more elaborate--a knotted wire cup wheel on the angle grinder. Works very fast, doesn't throw wires nearly as much.

Kirk

That's my vote. Then if you're psychotic, 320g, 400g, 600g, 1000g, wool bonnet on a 9" grinder with a rubbing compound. DAMHIK

And as far as protecting it if you have to in the future. Grease, plenty of it too.

[John McClanahan]

Be careful using a brass wire brush on an angle grinder. From what I have found out, most brass wire brushes designed for use on power tools is actually brass plated steel. (Some simply don't say) While it looks like brass, the tips doing the work is the steel core. Solid brass wires are not strong enough to hold up to the repeated flexing of a high speed tool.

[Greg Portland]

YIKES some of these suggestions are good and some are just plain ruinous if you want to keep your tools in good condition

When these threads pop up, there are always some people who recommend naval jelly, wire wheels, & other "harsh" methods of rust removal. Then another group runs in claiming that these methods will destroy your tools. I have yet to see or hear of someone actually screwing up a large piece of machinery using these methods. If you have ever tried to flatten the bottom of a hand plane then you know how much effort it takes to remove even a -slight- amount of metal (coarse diamond grit + a lot of time). The other gripe is when people claim that WD40 (or other solvent) will ruin the future finish of any piece of wood it touches. This has not been my experience with any solvent that has been hand-wiped off the cast iron.

My recommendation is to use synthetic steel wool + ROS + lubricant (WD40, kerosene, etc.). If you want a polished look then finish with finer grits.

I have tried many preventative products and IMO Boeshield works the best. I have also had a lot of success using covers that sit completely flush (no airspace) with the cast iron.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

WD40 does make a fine lube for what ever rust removal process one might choose which requires one, but it sucks as a protectant and should be wiped off and followed by something such as a paste wax or, as you state, Boeshield or similar.

"MY" point in saying it would transfer is for anyone who just sprays down the top in the hopes that it won't rust and never wiped it off, or just wipes most off. It's not a top coat after all.

But anyway, like you say there's always lots of friction in these discussions. :)

[Chris Parks]

When these threads pop up, there are always some people who recommend naval jelly, wire wheels, & other "harsh" methods of rust removal. Then another group runs in claiming that these methods will destroy your tools. I have yet to see or hear of someone actually screwing up a large piece of machinery using these methods. If you have ever tried to flatten the bottom of a hand plane then you know how much effort it takes to remove even a -slight- amount of metal (coarse diamond grit + a lot of time). The other gripe is when people claim that WD40 (or other solvent) will ruin the future finish of any piece of wood it touches. This has not been my experience with any solvent that has been hand-wiped off the cast iron.

My recommendation is to use synthetic steel wool + ROS + lubricant (WD40, kerosene, etc.). If you want a polished look then finish with finer grits.

I have tried many preventative products and IMO Boeshield works the best. I have also had a lot of success using covers that sit completely flush (no airspace) with the cast iron.

Short of getting and angle grinder fitted with a grinding disc on it I don't think anyone here would have the patience to affect the flatness of a top to any noticeable degree. It is a machine fer god's sake and I for one want my machines to work not look pretty so shiny as new surfaces don't worry me. Others here think it is a priority and that is their prerogative.

[Kyle Stiefel]

Wow, hot topic. So I finally got around to removing the rust tonight. My previous method was just some Naphtha with the green pad followed by a topcoat of Renaissance Wax.

This time with some real rust involved I started with the Naphtha, a rag and razor blade. I then moved onto the Barkeepers Friend with the green pad followed by the Renaissance wax. I have to say without a doubt the $2 bucks I paid for the Barkeepers from the local grocery store was well worth it. I maybe spent about 20 minutes on the jointer for example.http://lh6.ggpht.com/_OgztXw9RRGg/TNiZOdhQszI/AAAAAAAADd4/pEIYqWk33ag/s800/Agents.jpghttp://lh6.ggpht.com/_OgztXw9RRGg/TNiZR0kueNI/AAAAAAAADd8/S9xRH2KedT4/s800/Jointer%20pre.jpghttp://lh3.ggpht.com/_OgztXw9RRGg/TNiZS-UnilI/AAAAAAAADeA/FU4nJYw2OpA/s800/Jointer%20post.jpghttp://lh4.ggpht.com/_OgztXw9RRGg/TNiZTryZqzI/AAAAAAAADeE/gA-kwYfwmFc/s800/Lathe%20pre.jpghttp://lh6.ggpht.com/_OgztXw9RRGg/TNiZUSkcPJI/AAAAAAAADeI/-WIP5zoX1U8/s800/Lathe%20post.jpg

[Carroll Courtney]

Sure like that cutter head;)----Carroll

[Charles McClain]

It was mentioned earlier but I'll vote for the Evapo-Rust. It's very gentle and works great.
I gave some to my uncle when he was putting some old rusty flea market planes on a board for decoration in his shop/showroom/kitchen. I ask him later if he was going to clean up the rest of the planes? He said no after you treat them with that they don't look old anymore :rolleyes:.
Charles

[Anthony Diodati]

Those look great!
I will have to try that BKF.
My scroll saw table and the base (not the table) of my Craftsman 103.XXXXX drill press need some attention.
Did you just use the liquid BKF on the pad, of did you use some other type of lubricant?
But I have also use a ROS and some fine sand paper dry, of maybe with a little mineral spirits, and it did not seem to hurt the flatness of the machines.
I just did this to my lathe bed with fine paper on a ROS dry. It did not seem to hurt anything, also it is a wood lathe.
I don't think I would want to do that on a metal lathe.
Thanks, Tony

[Kyle Stiefel]

Those look great!
I will have to try that BKF.
Did you just use the liquid BKF on the pad, of did you use some other type of lubricant?

Tony,
I bought the liquid form of the BKF which I used as the lubricant for the green pad. I think I am actually going to use it to clean the shower this weekend although that will be far less rewarding.

[george wilson]

I recommend using blue nitrile gloves or dish washing gloves with the bar Keeper's Friend,as it is oxalic acid,a poison. Be sure not to ingest any of it.

[Anthony Diodati]

Tony,
I bought the liquid form of the BKF which I used as the lubricant for the green pad. I think I am actually going to use it to clean the shower this weekend although that will be far less rewarding.

Thanks, I got the regular powder as that's all they had.
Family Dollar had it for $1.75.
I may try mixing it with a light oil as mentioned in the other thread.
Thanks, Tony

[Marty Paulus]

I am not sure that mixing BKF with oil is really going to do the job. I believe the powder has to be mixed with water to activate the acid. When using oil all you are doing is using the powder as an abrasive. Just like using a piece of sandpaper and oil.

[Dan Hintz]

I recommend using blue nitrile gloves or dish washing gloves with the bar Keeper's Friend,as it is oxalic acid,a poison. Be sure not to ingest any of it.
Oxalic acid isn't absorbed through the skin, so it's only an ingestion issue. To that end, you would have to ingest gallons of fluid before it would become lethal... just stop licking your hands after every application and you'll be fine.

[Brad Gobble]

Oxalic acid isn't absorbed through the skin, so it's only an ingestion issue. To that end, you would have to ingest gallons of fluid before it would become lethal... just stop licking your hands after every application and you'll be fine.

Dan, you owe me a keyboard (unless BKF gets coffee out of plastic)

[Anthony Diodati]

I am not sure that mixing BKF with oil is really going to do the job. I believe the powder has to be mixed with water to activate the acid. When using oil all you are doing is using the powder as an abrasive. Just like using a piece of sandpaper and oil.
Ok, Yes, I think I read that somewhere else too.
I'll just use water.
Tony

[Carl Carew]

All these methods look fine but take elbow grease and time, I find the power blast to be most effective. Try lead shot in a size 9 pattern use a 12 guage double barrel full choke gun and fire away, 12 to 14 blasts should do the average size joiner. If you are more enviromentally oriented you may want to try the steel shot if so switch to no 6 shot and use a modified choke barrel... now where did I put my bottle of bourbon???

Just thought I would try to bring a smile to you what a lousy thing to happen to your tools, but with a lot of work they will be just as good as when you put them in storage...just would have been much nicer to take them out and see them ready to work

hope you are up and running soon

Carl

[Jon McElwain]

I moved from Juneau to Colorado this year - what a radical environmental change! Wet/cold/humid to dry/hot/low humidity!! Where were you located? Where did you move to? I am going through a serious learning curve on how to deal with wood movement and such with the environmental change. Also, I am finding that my belts and seals and such dry out and I'm not sure how to deal with that! Anyone have suggestions?

I spent lots of time de-rusting tools up there. My shop was always heated, I ran a de-humidifier continuously, and always kept cast iron surfaces coated with wax/Pledge/light oil etc. Even so, there were always the spots you missed and rust found its way in.

I used an ingersol-rand surface prep kit that did a good job on surfaces without being too aggressive on the metal. Coat with your favorite wax etc.

I use Soft Scrub to remove rust stains very easily - not great for surface rust, but pin holes in painted surfaces where rust has stained the paint.

[Gary Dunning]

Anyone have expierience with it? According to my web research baking soda is non-abrasive, but will remove paint, and rust, but does not harm plastic, rubber or fiberglass gell coat. So it's used to clean aircraft and boats among other things. Amazon offers a small unit that's inexpensive. H.F. has a bigger capacity set up that an Amazon reviewer praised.

[Jaze Derr]

All these methods look fine but take elbow grease and time, I find the power blast to be most effective. Try lead shot in a size 9 pattern use a 12 guage double barrel full choke gun and fire away, 12 to 14 blasts should do the average size joiner. If you are more enviromentally oriented you may want to try the steel shot if so switch to no 6 shot and use a modified choke barrel... now where did I put my bottle of bourbon???

Just thought I would try to bring a smile to you what a lousy thing to happen to your tools, but with a lot of work they will be just as good as when you put them in storage...just would have been much nicer to take them out and see them ready to work

hope you are up and running soon

Carl
Aw, and here I was reaching for my shotgun to clean my rusty bandsaw table...

[Jack Pinkham]

A phosphoric acid solution followed by a conversion coating. Sherwin-Williams products are described here: http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/media/pds/English/AS1025.pdf
For deep rust use 2" or 3" diameter Scotch-Brite surface conditioning discs on a pneumatic angle die grinder, followed by the etch and conversion coating.

[Chris Fournier]

There is absolutely no need to grind, brush or sand the surfaces that are being discussed. Fact is, with the mechanical methods recommended your surfaces will bear witness to the fact that rust was removed - not nice to look at and it reduces the value of your equipment/tools.

I have used a car battery charger, a scrap of steel, a water/baking soda solution and a plastic tub to remove rust from metal items for years. I'm talking about rusted castings that looked like junk to hand tools that look like they were buried for years. I didn't have to use harch chemicals or a lick of elbow grease and the results would beat the elbow grease method every time.

I have discovered that large flat surfaces like a table saw top can be cleaned up of rust without being in a water bath, a wet towel can be used instead of immersion. Clever idea, I wish that it had been mine but thanks goes to Frank Ford!

Quick 6 mil poly lined "wood tubs" can be made up in the shop for dedicated rust clean up and then just as quickly dismantled.

Check out this link and you will never remove rust mechanically again:

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/QuickTricks/RustRemoval/rustremoval.html

[Jaze Derr]

I had found this thread a while ago, and decided on trying Evapo-rust for my bandsaw table.

My results:
Here's the bandsaw table, after neglect in someone's garage, and then being moved in a downpour:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5248/5207142318_d7a892eb52.jpg

Before you start yelling at me, those can rings were already there!! I don't put drinks on my tools! :)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5207142362_fedd115196.jpg

Most of it was from the rain, so pretty superficial, but the can rings and a few other spots were older and deeper.

After two hours in the highly advanced soaking tub of a cardboard box and garbage bag:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5207142398_e7a019fd71.jpg

All the rain rust was gone, and most of the deeper rust, too. This was workable, but I was out of shop time, so I let it sit for 24 hours.

After a light scrub with a green pad and some wd-40:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/5206544643_6728c46293.jpg

Not too shabby. I put 3 light coats of paste wax on it. You can still see a few of the can rings (grrr) and there's a couple pits, but overall, I'm pleased.

The Evapo-rust worked well, was pretty cheap ($30 at Harbor Freight for a gallon) and is reusable! Didn't have a horrible smell to it, but it ended up smelling a bit...swampy is the only way I'd describe it. Not too strong, though, and definitely better than a solvent smell.

I filtered the solution back into it's original container, ready for more derusting!

[Jack Pinkham]

Rust removal using spuds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgnHDB3VNI

[Brian Jarnell]

On flat surface, I use 240 grit sand paper with an orbital sander.

[Anthony Diodati]

On flat surface, I use 240 grit sand paper with an orbital sander.

Well, I got some of the Bar Keepers friend, I wanted to clean the bottom of my Craftsman bench top drill press, (the base, not the table) so I thought I'd try the BKF. 1st. I used some WD-40 and q razor blade, the rust wasn't real bad or anything, not pitted either.
But unless I didn't use a course enough pad, I used one of those kitchen sponges, with the scrubber back on them, but I wasn't too impressed.
I finaly got out the ROS with some dry fine paper on it, and went at it, trying to stay as even as I could.
Then cleaned it up with paint thinner and waxed it.
I know some are not fond of using the ROS, but in this case, I look at the base, and can still see the original grinding marks, sort of a cross hatch pattern, like you see machine shops do on automotive fly wheels sometimes.
Blanch grinder I think they call it. So IMO how much metal could I really have hogged off, and how "out of flat" could I really have made it?
This drill press is sweet BTY, passes the nickel test too!
Thanks, Tony

[Brian Jarnell]

Well, I got some of the Bar Keepers friend, I wanted to clean the bottom of my Craftsman bench top drill press, (the base, not the table) so I thought I'd try the BKF. 1st. I used some WD-40 and q razor blade, the rust wasn't real bad or anything, not pitted either.
But unless I didn't use a course enough pad, I used one of those kitchen sponges, with the scrubber back on them, but I wasn't too impressed.
I finaly got out the ROS with some dry fine paper on it, and went at it, trying to stay as even as I could.
Then cleaned it up with paint thinner and waxed it.
I know some are not fond of using the ROS, but in this case, I look at the base, and can still see the original grinding marks, sort of a cross hatch pattern, like you see machine shops do on automotive fly wheels sometimes.
Blanch grinder I think they call it. So IMO how much metal could I really have hogged off, and how "out of flat" could I really have made it?
This drill press is sweet BTY, passes the nickel test too!
Thanks, Tony

Good to see you like doing it the hard way.

[Anthony Diodati]

Good to see you like doing it the hard way.
Well I do not feel it was so hard.
I think working with the razor blade 1st, left me less sanding to do with the ROS.
Thanks, Tony

[Mike Konobeck]

The BKF works. Just have to make sure that you let it sit on the surface for a little bit and let the acid do some work. If you rush it it won't work very well. Since it is acid based there is no specific "activator" required to make it into a workable solution. I prefer oil just because it does not introduce another friend of rust.

Jaze, that table turned out nice. Give BKF a try to get the rings out. I would almost guarentee it will do so. I bought a combo machine that had a surface that had seen its better days. Rings and stains were no match. Took me a few trys but I got the mixture right of BKF and oil and it worked wonders. I have a few stains that I was just lazy about. I know I could have pulled them out if I would have tried harder. Just needed to get to working wood instead of metal. Not my strong suit. Heck, neither is working wood but I try.

As for the oxalic acid not being absorbed through the skin I would just stay on the safe side and use gloves and not do the "one for you, one for me" trick with it in any form. There are plenty of chemicals that we deal with that are likely more harmful but no sense messing around with it. I am sure that as we cut MDF that has been treated with the "f" word it is much worse for us. My wife is a scientist and she is very knowledable about chemicals. Works with them every day and I run this stuff by her all of the time. She is amazed at some of the crap that we use. Unfortunately the wood itself, tools, and finishes present some intersting issues.

[Anthony Diodati]

I'll have to try the BKF again then. But let it sit longer. I did let it sit a bit, but think I was inpatient.
I will say one thing, I had some kind of weird stain in my bathroom sink, don't know what from, it was blue. Pretty sure I used regular cleanser on it before, and it wouldn't come out, but the BKF took it right out.

So IOW oil, water, don't matter what you mix it with? As some have stated you must use water with it to release the acid.
Thanks, Tony