Anvil question

[Paul Incognito]

I haven't posted anything for a while. Had a real busy summer with work, so I haven't had much time in the shop.
Anyhow...I'm building a deck for a nice lady, and she has an anvil in her back yard. I asked about it, and it belonged to her late husband. If I could get it to into my truck, I could have it.
Here's my question-The top isn't flat, it's got a fairly big dip in it, is this acceptable?
Thanks to the info I've gleaned from some folks here at SMC, I have a vague idea of things to use it for, but I'm assuming that I'll need a bunch of tools for metalworking. Any suggestions as to what to get first? Any resources for other info?
Thanks in advance for the help.
PI

[Paul Incognito]

I know...no pics, it didn't happen.

[Peter Gavin]

I am not a metal worker (yet) but I think that is quite the find. Every anvil I have seen has been at least $200 for that size. You need to get it flattened but any machine shop should be able to do that.

Pedro

[Neal Wells]

The dip (belly) in the top isn't necessarily a bad thing and can be used to straighten material. Most forging is done across the anvil rather than along the length of it. From the pictures, the edges look to be in relatively good condition and that is probably more important that the belly. It's a bit unusual that the top of the horn appears to be flattened or even bellied and makes me wonder what kind of work was done there. That kind of wear signifies many years or generations of hard use. If only anvils could talk...

Depending on the age of the anvil you may not want to let a machine shop work on it. Many older anvils had a wrought iron body with a steel face. If that's the case, machining it flat might go through the face into the body. I have an old anvil that has been worn through the face from use.

Look at the sides and see if you can find a name or the weight. Older anvils will have the weight as three numbers, the first being full hundredweight of 112 lbs. The second number denotes how many quarters of a hundred weight (again, quarters of 112 lbs or 28#) and the last number is the odd lbs. An anvil displaying 127 would weigh 175 lbs (1 hundredweight [112], 2 quarters of a hundred weight [56 lbs], and 7 extra pounds).

As to metal working tools, that's the nice part of being a blacksmith, you make your own. You will need a hammer, one or two pair of tongs, and a forge to start. Make the rest as you go. There are a lot of good books out there but I like to use "Edge of the Anvil" by Jack Andrews with students.

30 years ago my instructor told me to make a new tool every day and I have tried to follow his advice. Needless to say I need to retire soon or build a bigger shop.

Lastly, your anvil is far better than the one I started on. Fasten it to a stump and have fun.

Neal
Vulcan Forge Blacksmith Shop

[Charles Wiggins]

You need to get it flattened but any machine shop should be able to do that.

+1
And you really don't need that much equipment to get started. Once you have a few basic tools you can make lots of other tools yourself. Your biggest obstacle is going to be a forge, but these can be built out of a number of common containers with just a few specialized pieces.

Got some reading suggestions for you:
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Modern-Blacksmith-Alexander-Weygers/dp/0898158966

http://www.amazon.com/New-Edge-Anvil-Resource-Blacksmith/dp/1879535092

http://www.amazon.com/Backyard-Blacksmith-Traditional-Techniques-Modern/dp/1592532519

[Joshua Clark]

Before working on the top I'd suggest giving it to see how it works as-is. For smaller work it might work just fine. It's usually helpful to have at least one good, sharp corner but it's not super critical. Look for an inexpensive forge (or build one- look for "brake drum forge"), get a hammer, and beat some hot iron. It's a lot of fun.

The books Charles recommended above area all excellent. I especially like the last- The Backyard Blacksmith for beginners. It has excellent photos and her descriptions are very clear.

Good luck!

Josh

[David Weaver]

i'm in the same boat, just got an anvil last week, but needed one not for blacksmithing, but just to strike things on (especially planes).

I also wouldn't touch the top, and I wouldn't send it to a general machine shop unless you know how it's made and know that machining a bunch off won't compromise the face. That one looks pretty well used.

I had to pay for mine, though :( but I really needed flat along the length and didn't want to work harder than needed to get there.

Does it have a maker's mark on it? Mine was sold by the seller as a soderfors anvil, but it looks more like an unmarked generic to me.

[harry strasil]

That anvil from the look of the feet, appears to be a very old English Wrought Iron Anvil, possibly a Mousehole anvil, which could be very valuable. The hard face on the top is forge welded on and may not be very thick in some places. Having it Flattened by removing metal by a machine shop. You might as well Junk it now and save the expense of having it made into a useless thing.

http://mouseholeforge.com/

[Paul Incognito]

Some great info. I'll get on the suggested reading.
Any maker's mark is faint at best, but I did find a semi legible number-122, 170 lbs, if I understand the "code."
The edges seem structurally sound but are pretty beat up and rounded, as are the square and round holes thru the top.
I guess a forge is next. Then I can shape some metal.
David, I'm trying to imagine why you'd need to strike a plane on an anvil?
Thanks everyone!
PI

[Paul Incognito]

That anvil from the look of the feet, appears to be a very old English Wrought Iron Anvil, possibly a Mousehole anvil, which could be very valuable. The hard face on the top is forge welded on and may not be very thick in some places. Having it Flattened by removing metal by a machine shop. You might as well Junk it now and save the expense of having it made into a useless thing.

http://mouseholeforge.com/
Thanks Jr, I sanded some rust off, and can read "forge" on it, but anything else it may have said is lost to history.
Like Neal said, "If only anvils could talk," this thing could probably give me a college education.
PI

[Jim Koepke]

I would take it if I could get it in my truck.

It is nice to have a big piece of iron mass to use when beating on metal.

My first mass was a piece of rail road track I found.

My current piece is a piece of rail road track someone cut to the shape of an anvil and flattened the top.

Comes in real handy for peening rivets and such.

jtk

[Mike Olson]

A few years ago there was a posting on a welding forum where someone refaced their anvil with welding rod and then ground it flat. I remember there was discussion about which rod would be best but i can't remember the details.

Not sure if you have access to a welder but I thought I would mention.

[george wilson]

David wants an anvil to rest planes on that he is peening out the dovetails on,I think.

[Paul Incognito]

David wants an anvil to rest planes on that he is peening out the dovetails on,I think.
And here I thought he needed help with anger management...
Thanks, George, that makes more sense than what I was imagining.
PI

[Tony Shea]

That anvil from the look of the feet, appears to be a very old English Wrought Iron Anvil, possibly a Mousehole anvil, which could be very valuable


Due to what Harry has pointed out, and Harry seems to know his way around an anvil, I would seriously contemplate on getting this anvil identified before doing any more restoration or defacing. Very valuable to me sounds as if you may have come upon a nice peice of history and be worth some coin to the right collector. If that is what is meant by very valuable, then I would like to think this may not be the best anvil to start out your blacksmithing on especially if you plan on fixing it up to make a better user. And if it indeed is valuable you may be better off selling this anvil to a collector and using the return to purchase a more suitable user anvil. I have recently come across a few nice ones in my local Uncle Henry's (classifieds book for Maine and New Hampshire), for $100 or a bit over. Just think you should do some more research on this anvil especially before sanding or machining anymore of the surface. Good luck with your new endevour, one I have been contemplating on starting myself.

[Mike Davis NC]

I would take it if I had to carry it home on my back!

I've been looking for a good anvil at a decent price for over ten years. Every one I find is either worn out, busted, cost five prices or has to be shipped at high freight cost.

[george wilson]

Just get the anvil and find a reasonably flat place to use on it. You don't really use the entire top anyway. Italian anvils have a round beak on 1 end and a square beak on the other,and a small square flat face in between,not but 1/3 the width of an English type anvil. One I saw in Venice in a blacksmith's shop only seemed to have about a 4 or 5" square striking area.

The steel top on that anvil looks pretty thin,from what I think I can see. I wouldn't think about trying to grind it flat. The price is right.

David,looks like you got a nice anvil.

[John Toigo]

I believe Harry is correct in his diagnosis that it's an old wrought English anvil. If so, Mousehole Forge is a likely candidate. I think it's certainly worth having. I would not take it to a machine shop for any repairs. there's a blacksmith right in DE that refaces anvils at a reasonable price if you really want to have it done. I'd use it a while & get a feel for it. That anvil's got some mileage on it - hence the dip and the flattened horn. It's seen some use in a busy shop.

[Paul Incognito]

More great info.
I'm definitely not taking this to a machine shop, so don't worry about that.
I'm going to contact the guy John mentioned and see if he'll have a look. But I plan on trying blacksmithing using this anvil. I'm sure I can't do anything to it that hasn't already been done, and I'm not near strong enough to break it :)
I kind of like the fact that it's been around and has a long history of use. What can I say, I like old used tools.
I really appreciate all the replies. Keep em coming!
PI

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[harry strasil]

A Mousehole anvil is not something the ordinary smith would actually work on, more likely it would rest in a prominent place in his shop, so he could brag that he had a Mousehole Anvil to some of the other smiths he knows. Old Wrought iron anvils were made up of 3 to 4 pieces forge welded together to form the body, each foot was a seperate piece and forge welded onto the body, then the heel was another piece forge welded onto the body and finally the horn was forge welded on to the body, then the hard face was forgewelded on. The face was cooled under falling water and usually the outside edges were cooled quickly first, too quickly usually so that they were brittle and would chip away.
You will see a lot of old Wrought Forge Welded together Anvils missing their horns or heels due to an imperfect weld.
Look at the feet on the anvil in the post #2, then look at the feet on Davids Anvil, post # 7. they are a dead giveway to an old world Anvil.

[John Toigo]

Speaking of anvils - I just happened to run into this online.... VERY rare....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Two-Piece-Blacksmith-Anvil-110-lbs-/120640539698?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c16bc8c32

[Paul Incognito]

Speaking of anvils - I just happened to run into this online.... VERY rare....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Two-Piece-Blacksmith-Anvil-110-lbs-/120640539698?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c16bc8c32
Now that's funny!
Question, I need to get a more appropriate stump to bolt it to, how high do I want it to end up?
TIA,
PI

[John Toigo]

The traditional height is so that when your arm hangs straight at your side & your hand is a fist your knuckles brush the top of the anvil. However - every smith is different so adjust from there. I like my anvil a bit higher than that.

[David Weaver]

And here I thought he needed help with anger management...
Thanks, George, that makes more sense than what I was imagining.
PI

George is right, but you are probably right about the first part of your comment, too!

I've been peining the dovetails on my planes on the back of a machinist vise that is cast iron, and it's really not a great way to do it. I've had to do a lot of extra lapping to remove marks that were made by the side of the vise face when the plane tipped left or right on it while I was peining.

It's easy to avoid at first, but when you're peining something that is O1 steel on O1 steel, after a while you start to get tired and things like that happen.

[David Weaver]

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[harry strasil]

remember what I said about some wrought anvils having thier horns or heels broken off, dats one of dem.

During the civil war during the march to the sea, the troops used large sledge hammers and broke the horns off every anvil they could find, so that the seceshs could not rearm.

If you scroll down a little farther at that broken anvil url, you will see an antique 55 lb anvil for $300, that is one of the cast russian anvils that HF and others used to sell for about $55. They had a machined face that was so rough you had to take a grinder and sander to them to even pound any kind of steel on them.

The Fisher anvil at the bottom is one of the cast iron anvils with a hard steel face and the horns had a hard face too. They were good anvils, its says fischer right off, because of the cast tie down pad eyes fore and aft.

[Russell Sansom]

Paul,
A good forge is nice, but you don't have to give up until you build one. You can do some serious work with the equivalent of an old portable hair dryer and a hibachi full of charcoal. Years ago I was able to bootstrap a shop from almost nothing by those means. Blacksmithing is a very sensuous, enjoyable activity. My hands still reach for my two earliest chisels. It seems, since I created their hardness and their sharpness, that I have a deep internal understanding of their maintenance.

[Paul Incognito]

Thanks again everybody for your input! It's nice that you all are willing to share your experience!
I'm going to try and get some sort of blacksmith shop up and running before winter sets in. I'll keep you posted!
PI

[Derby Matthews]

A blacksmith buddy once said to me "never own an anvil you can't carry yourself - unless you have an apprentice to do it for you"

My father bought a Fisher 125 lb. at an antique shop in Marshfield VT when we were camping one summer when I was a kid. He took it to work a couple of weeks later (General Electric) and had the top surface analyzed by the metallurgy dept; surface ground on the bottom, then the top, and a plate of similar steel (I don't remember what they used, but it was EXPENSIVE stuff) forge-welded to the top. Then it was reground and dressed. Took week or two. They called it a "Government Job" Cost to him: $25.00.

I still have it. My blacksmith buddy bought it from my dad when we were in our twenties, and swapped it back to me ten years ago for a Peter Wright (300 lb. and change) I found for next to nothing at a flea market.

Now I have an anvil I can carry - and he doesn't;)

[george wilson]

Why should you have to have an anvil you can carry unless you are a traveling farrier??? I sure can't carry mine.:)

[Derby Matthews]

I keep mine under the bench unless I need it, which isn't all that often. So maybe " one you can lift" is a more appropriate phrase for my situation :D

[Rob Young]

Like Neal said, "If only anvils could talk," this thing could probably give me a college education.
PI

Be glad they can't! The screaming would be unbearable.

[george wilson]

Well,I suppose if you just want a casual anvil under the bench it would be o.k..

[Andrew Gibson]

I keep mine under the bench unless I need it, which isn't all that often. So maybe " one you can lift" is a more appropriate phrase for my situation :D

How much you can lift is relative I think.

My best deadlift currently is 345lb. My goal is 500lb. I think a could lift and move a 300 pounder if I needed to. From what I have seen a 300Lb anvil would be larger then average... maybe I'm wrong.

I know a 300lb hunk of iron under my bench should help stop any shimmy when scrub planing.

I saw a 125 lb Anvil up in Nashua NH. I thought about betting the lady I could make a lap around the parking lot without putting it down, If I made the lap I would have kept right on going to the car. I don't thing she would have taken the bet.

[Derby Matthews]

Well, I got the Peter Wright (and a big box full of hardys -or hardies?) in the back of my Grand Caravan by myself, but neither the van's shocks or my back were too happy about that particular purchase. Can still remember that day well. If I remember right the PW was a little swaybacked, but it didn't bother my friend much and he was pretty adamant about not "restoring" it. Claimed it wouldn't have the right ring afterward, or something.

Still.... MUCH happier having the Fisher back. That top plate has really has stood up over time even with my buddy using it near daily for a couple of decades.

BTW his other favorite saying was "only two reasons a blacksmith goes to hell - pounding cold metal, and not charging enough"

If I'm any kind of blacksmith I fear for my soul....

[george wilson]

You guys be careful. I thought I was indestructible when I was young,and could lift 600# on my back. Now,I have had many surgeries,have had a titanium implant in my lower back,and am again getting spinal stenosis(sp?) ABOVE the implant. I am afraid to lift much as my discs are entirely too thin,and I've lost 1 1/2" of height,so now only 6'31/2".

I can just imagine those discs getting compressed when I take my 115# vise off the milling machine. I'm definitely not lifting my anvil.

[harry strasil]

My last helper, Ivan, bought a 142# Peter Wright Anvil at a farm auction for $95, just tucked it under one arm and stood around, afraid someone would steal it. LOL
Somewhere I have a picture of him holding my Grandfathers 115 PW anvil straight out in front of him shoulder high.

[Derby Matthews]

Harry, You might want to consider nicknaming your helper "Wile E." (Coyote) if he's gonna carry an anvil around. 'Course that might get you named "Roadrunner" in return :cool:

[harry strasil]

Paul here are a couple of pictures of an Anvil like yours with a civil war era traveling artillary forge.

[Paul Incognito]

Thanks for the pics, Jr.
I sent pics to a local blacksmith and he confirmed that it looks like a Mousehole anvil. I'm going to take it to him when I get a chance and see what it will take to clean it up some.
No other progress yet, been busy with my day job. :)
PI