Review of the IBC/Cosman chipbreaker/blade combo

[James Phillips]

It is well worth the $100 you will pay for it. The blade is thick! I know have a 60 year old No 7 bailey that works like a charm. I know some have reported the backs are not honed, but it only took me about 1 minute to get this one to a mirror finish.

Right now it comes with "The great handplane revival" DVD which is a great tool for learning to tune and use handplanes

[Jim R Edwards]

A few questions: What specifically makes it great? Did you have to file the mouth? If so how much? How do they compare to other after market blades?

I have a Clifton blade and chipbreaker set. I believe that the blade is 1/8 inch thick. It will not fit in my Stanley type 17 4 1/2 but it will fit in my Record 4 1/2, 5 1/2, and 7. Have you tried your blade in any other brand of hand planes?

Thanks for the post.

[Brian Kent]

Thank you so much for the review. I was hoping to hear from a user.

[David Weaver]

I have also used the irons, two of them, without the chipbreaker.

I found them fast to prepare and similar durability to other high quality A2 irons (actually counted strokes - between 700 and 1100 depending on the iron - never do that again).

I found also that for durability that the edge was better after two mild tormek grinds, my iron chipped out initially (not two hones, but two grinds - I would normally do them on a dry grinder, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't involved in making any of the irons less durable).

The Lee valley irons that I've used were still the fastest to prepare on the back. The IBC iron was polished, but it wasn't perfectly flat like the LV irons.

I used to have the opinion that the LN irons took longer to prepare, similar to hocks (france hocks, but those have the advantage of being cheaper), because for a while after LV started lapping irons, LN had someone doing hand lapping or something similar on the last half or 3/4ths of an inch of the iron, and putting deeper scratches in than the grind that I had to work out. However, the last one that I broke out took only about 5 minutes to prepare, it was much better done than some of the prior ones.

The one IBC thing I don't understand at all is how a stanley replacement iron that is thinner can cost more than an LN replacement iron. Also, take a look at the cost of a toothed iron intended to replace an LN iron vs. one intended to replace a toothed LV iron. Why is the LV replacement so much cheaper?

Here is my bit about irons. You will be best served to find an iron that chips out the least, and by that I mean even very tiny chips that leave a faint line in your work. Of all of the irons I've looked at, the ones that wear without chipping last the longest (when comparing the same alloy at similar hardness), no matter the brand. The difference is hundreds of strokes of durability if you are the type who uses your iron until it is nearly not cutting. There is no guarantee that brand has anything to do with it, you will get some good ones and some bad ones by the same brand if you count on them being super fine and call one prone to small chipouts unsuitable.

The other nice thing about the IBC, as an aside, is that it has an anti-rust coating on it.

I don't have a real opinion on which iron is "better" than any others, because to me they're all the same. Beware anyone calling one iron definitively superior to another or extolling superior metallurgy or some other such thing.

[James Phillips]

A few questions: What specifically makes it great? Did you have to file the mouth? If so how much? How do they compare to other after market blades?

I have a Clifton blade and chipbreaker set. I believe that the blade is 1/8 inch thick. It will not fit in my Stanley type 17 4 1/2 but it will fit in my Record 4 1/2, 5 1/2, and 7. Have you tried your blade in any other brand of hand planes?

Thanks for the post.

I did have to file the mouth due to the thickness of the blade.

What is great about it? It is very substantial and the chip breaker mates perfectly. Mine was perfectly flat and quick to hone. I also went through the entire plane tune up process that Rob demonstrates on the video. The best thing is it gives you a method to put a thick blade in an old plane which you could not do otherwise due to the yoke being to short to reach through a thick blade

[James Phillips]

The Lee valley irons that I've used were still the fastest to prepare on the back. The IBC iron was polished, but it wasn't perfectly flat like the LV irons.

The one IBC thing I don't understand at all is how a stanley replacement iron that is thinner can cost more than an LN replacement iron.

I don't have a real opinion on which iron is "better" than any others, because to me they're all the same. Beware anyone calling one iron definitively superior to another or extolling superior metallurgy or some other such thing.

I thought that IBC made Lee Valley's iron so they should be very similar, but I think LV irons come a little more polished.

This blade is MUCH thicker than the old stanley blade which is why you have to replace the chipbreaker.

Other that coming flat and sharp, the iron itself is just a high quality iron. The big benefit is that the combo lets you add a thick blade to an old plane

[Josh Rudolph]

Thanks for the info James. I must have missed what others have been saying about the honing. Still not sure you can talk me into one yet though. :) The filing of the mouth is a bit of a turn off to me. My current setup works great and I didn't need to file the mouth. Not saying I wouldn't try one...only if the price gets comparable to the other very good offerings.

I wonder if they will ever sell the chipbreaker and blade without the DVD? I would think/hope that would drop the price back to its competitors.

I agree with David on which iron is better, I think they are all pretty much equal.

Thanks again.
Josh

[David Weaver]

I thought that IBC made Lee Valley's iron so they should be very similar, but I think LV irons come a little more polished.

This blade is MUCH thicker than the old stanley blade which is why you have to replace the chipbreaker.

Other that coming flat and sharp, the iron itself is just a high quality iron. The big benefit is that the combo lets you add a thick blade to an old plane

You can solder tabs on any chipbreaker and use a thick iron of any make in a vintage plane.

There aren't many situations that warrant an iron thicker than a hock 3/32nd replacement in a vintage plane. I don't know if there are any.

I think the LV irons are not cryo treated. Try them for yourself and see if you think that makes a difference.

[Brian Rabinovitch]

Has anyone read the David Charlesworth quote that was included in the FWW ad for our blade chipbreaker matched set? IBC does not pay for any endorsement. I am very proud of this product and have received many kind words from many people who have equipped their older planes with this set. David saying such kind words about this IBC/Cosman product and the IBC/Pinnacle replacement blades/irons, however, is another milestone for IBC.

Our goal has always been to manufacture the best blades for every application. Getting recognition for doing a good job is ample reward for that effort. Selling millions of units would also be nice!

I thank everyone who has purchased any of my products and welcome your feedback.

Brian Rabinovitch
President/CEO
Industrial Blade Company Inc

[David Weaver]

It's a good iron, as are the rest. If you want to sell scads of units, it needs to be more price competitive.

I hitch a little at celebrity endorsements paid or unpaid as a rank beginner sees them and thinks that there is a lexus vs. kia difference in products, and there is not.

Charlesworth also said in the LN chisel technique dvd that LN chisels hold an edge better than japanese chisels. i don't remember the exact words, maybe someone could quote it. I thought that was an odd statement, especially at angles that people actually use chisels. It would be *very* interesting to see how a miyanaga blue steel chisel lasts vs. any of the LN chisel at 25-27 degrees. The matsumura chisels used in the FWW review aren't exactly the last word in japanese tooling.

[rob cosman]

Hi David, teaming up on you a little. I want to give a bit of background on the Charlesworth comments. David contacted me several months ago wanting to know where he could buy the blade/breaker to try based on all the banter he was hearing. His resulting unsolicited comments amounted to "this is the best prepared blade and breaker he had ever seen (out of the box) and it was the best way to spend your money if you desire to revive an old plane. The chipbreaker tabs were a real bonus in allowing the extra thick blade, something not previously available". He is preparing a review of the blades cutting performance for F&C magazine for a future release. The difference in the steel is not the noticeable feature, the exactness in the manufacturing is, pre-flattened back, parallel sides, square end and high level of surface polish. The latter is what saves time, makes it easier to get to the wood quicker (especially for the novice). Thanks to IBC for that improvement.

I have been around a fair bit, met and know a lot of the worlds prominent woodworkers. David Charlesworth is at the top of the heap, no one works with more exactness than does he. When it comes to sharpening and planing, I for one bow to his wisdom. Being tied to a product he is gushing over it would only make sense for me to publicly praise him, however if you examine my earlier DVDs and writing I have always recognized his expertise, this is not new. In my mind his invention of the ruler trick stands as the single biggest advance in plane blade sharpening to date. Those not familiar with it are at a tremendous disadvantage.

cheers
Rob

[James Phillips]

It's a good iron, as are the rest. If you want to sell scads of units, it needs to be more price competitive.

I hitch a little at celebrity endorsements paid or unpaid as a rank beginner sees them and thinks that there is a lexus vs. kia difference in products, and there is not.


David
I am not sure how to take this. I am not a rank beginner, but I do think this is a superior product for what it was designed to do. A LN #7 runs about $475. I bought an old stanley #7 for about $80 plus the cost of the blade $105 so I am at $185 total, which is less than half the cost, with comparable performance. So for me it was a good deal. Could I have tried to solder tabs on the thin existing chipbreaker and just add a $55 LN blade or $45 for a Hock. Sure I could have but I would have only save about $40-$50, would not have as good a chipbreaker and would have invested a lot more time to get the performance out of the old plane. I guess I say all this to say that these blades are not just for rank beginners. The Lord has blessed me to where I do not worry about minor expenses and to me the time saved was worth more than $40 or $50.

[Leigh Betsch]

Well this could get interesting again. I better run out a buy some batteries for my electron microscope. :rolleyes:

[Don Dorn]

This subject always gets contentious for some reason. For me, I used Hock blades for Baily style plains. If I still had any of that style plane, I'd spring for the IBC - like it or not, it is a new concept that allows a good thick iron and chipbreaker in a plane that didn't accept them by design.

[James Scheffler]

Well this could get interesting again. I better run out a buy some batteries for my electron microscope. :rolleyes:

You mean you don't have a spring-pole electron microscope? ;)

[Robert Culver]

Ok im a bit new to this but can sombody tell me why you would need anything more than a hock iron I understand there is a matching chip breaker also whats the major difrance here that justifys the 50 extra dollars. That kinda Cash can get you another tool. Im kinda lost. but Im good at it.....help me out here.

[Don Dorn]

Ok im a bit new to this but can sombody tell me why you would need anything more than a hock iron I understand there is a matching chip breaker also whats the major difrance here that justifys the 50 extra dollars. That kinda Cash can get you another tool. Im kinda lost. but Im good at it.....help me out here.

There is certainly nothing wrong with Hock irons. While they are very good, they still have to limit the thickness so that the yoke pin can go all the way through the blade to the chipbreaker allowing the lateral adjuster and depth adjustement wheel to work. A thicker blade negates that. Lie Nielsen uses thick blades and chip breakers because they also make the plane. Their replacement blades for Stanley's are thinner.

The pitch for the IBC is that you can use that same thick iron on the older Stanley planes because the chip breaker has tabs on it. That allows the yoke pin to go all the way through the thick blade and still engage the chip breaker .

The debate lies between those that feel as you do and those that want the thicker blade. There is more money involved in the IBC arrangement and some feel it's worth the difference between it and the Hock - others don't.

[David Weaver]

You can solder tabs on any chipbreaker. It's not like you're stepping on someone's creative toes because it's been done to planes longer than IBC has been in existence, it's an old plane tuning trick to reduce backlash.

[David Weaver]

David
I am not sure how to take this. I am not a rank beginner, but I do think this is a superior product for what it was designed to do. A LN #7 runs about $475. I bought an old stanley #7 for about $80 plus the cost of the blade $105 so I am at $185 total, which is less than half the cost, with comparable performance. So for me it was a good deal. Could I have tried to solder tabs on the thin existing chipbreaker and just add a $55 LN blade or $45 for a Hock. Sure I could have but I would have only save about $40-$50, would not have as good a chipbreaker and would have invested a lot more time to get the performance out of the old plane. I guess I say all this to say that these blades are not just for rank beginners. The Lord has blessed me to where I do not worry about minor expenses and to me the time saved was worth more than $40 or $50.

I challenge anyone to find any plane where there is a difference in performance of the plane with a hock iron and chipbreaker vs. a thick LN plane style iron like the IBC.

Not how the plane feels, but actual performance.

It takes no longer to make the hock iron perform than any other, especially after initial flattening. It takes me less than 10 minutes to flatten and polish a hock iron.

[Robert Culver]

It would seem to me though once you got to a certain thickness that the benifts from thicker would be very small.Im sure I have alot more to learn here. I have a baily #4 with original equipment in it and it seems to cut just fine as long as its SHARP. I just cleaned up some curly maple with it and had no problems at all.

It would seem to me that this is another one of those isssues of how much can I get for this. ....If the speed limits 55 then why drive a high proformance car? If you dont need 4 wheel drive why have it?

[David Weaver]

Hi David, teaming up on you a little. I want to give a bit of background on the Charlesworth comments. David contacted me several months ago wanting to know where he could buy the blade/breaker to try based on all the banter he was hearing. His resulting unsolicited comments amounted to "this is the best prepared blade and breaker he had ever seen (out of the box) and it was the best way to spend your money if you desire to revive an old plane. The chipbreaker tabs were a real bonus in allowing the extra thick blade, something not previously available". He is preparing a review of the blades cutting performance for F&C magazine for a future release. The difference in the steel is not the noticeable feature, the exactness in the manufacturing is, pre-flattened back, parallel sides, square end and high level of surface polish. The latter is what saves time, makes it easier to get to the wood quicker (especially for the novice). Thanks to IBC for that improvement.

I have been around a fair bit, met and know a lot of the worlds prominent woodworkers. David Charlesworth is at the top of the heap, no one works with more exactness than does he. When it comes to sharpening and planing, I for one bow to his wisdom. Being tied to a product he is gushing over it would only make sense for me to publicly praise him, however if you examine my earlier DVDs and writing I have always recognized his expertise, this is not new. In my mind his invention of the ruler trick stands as the single biggest advance in plane blade sharpening to date. Those not familiar with it are at a tremendous disadvantage.

cheers
Rob

i'm not worried about being teamed up on.

There is no shortage of high quality woodworkers in the world. Someone who as an extremely high quality craftsman reminded me of that recently, that excellent craftsmen with a superb sense of design are rare, but excellent craftsmen are not.

It's likely that those who are the best at the trade are not making videos and promoting goods. In fact, it's difficult for any of us to even find the work of most of the video makers. I would think that there would be a gallery of past work somewhere, but I can't find it. I can see a little of charlesworth's on his page (assuming that's his) and it looks very very good, very tight. There are, however, a lot of excellent craftsmen who don't use anything made in the last 20 years, and on top of that, the ones who do, I would imagine that the (vast) majority of them would tell you there will be no difference in your work with any of the brands of irons.

Also, to assert that a newbie has to spend time watching a video and filing a mouth and that is somehow quicker than just applying the ruler trick to an LN or LV replacement iron (i'll hold out hock, because sometimes the machine marks are deep enough you can't just do that), honing the bevel and going about your business - is there a time lapse video of both?

I quite like the IBC iron. I think they're great for beginners. Once you know how to prepare an iron, I disagree that there is a material difference in any of the quality replacement irons, *especially* if you're talking about using them to do woodworking.

[Andrew Gibson]

I know there is a big difference in performance between my planes with original or thin replacement irons, and those with hock and LV replacement irons. My #3 has a hock HCS blade and chip breaker, my #4 and #7 have LV a2 irons and original Chip breakers, and both my #5's have original irons and chip breakers.

In my opinion the best/most economical choice would be to go with a replacement iron of your choice (hock, LV, LN, and A2, O1, HCS) and pick up a hock chip breaker.
the savings in cost is significant IMO.

If I had the chance I would not mind trying one of the IBC setups, but I would not like to have to file the mouth of my plane to do so.

[george wilson]

I've been doing the ruler trick,but without the ruler,for many decades.

[Joseph Klosek]

I've been doing the ruler trick,but without the ruler,for many decades.

George,

What is the ruler trick?

J.P.

[Jim Koepke]

I've been doing the ruler trick,but without the ruler,for many decades.

I think a lot of people have been doing this and using micro bevels without any idea there was some fancy name for it.

I only lift the blade up when polishing the back if it has some roughness at the edge.

I like to hone my blades just a little at a time instead of letting them go until they won't cut anymore. Usually they will go pretty well for awhile and just need a little honing instead of remaking a bevel and going through a lot of work through the grits.

jtk

[george wilson]

The ruler trick is a CRUTCH of laying your plane iron face down on the whetstone,with a thin 6" pocket scale on the edge of the stone,to more easily get rid of small grinding scratches on the flat side of the blade.

Unfortunately, I didn't write a book about it,or do a video about it,so I don't get any credit for "one of the greatest sharpening advances". I happen to know how to move a tool a very small amount without a crutch.

What about Leonard Lee? Doesn't he get any credit for sharpening advances? Trouble is,I know people who were grinding higher blade angles many years before his book came out,too.

Truth is,there are great craftsmen who do work,and there are craftsmen who do work and write a book every time they do something. That's the God's truth. I've met several of them. Some of them asked very silly questions of me. One told me he had been using the same planer blades for 20 years.( I must be doing something very wrong. Several times I've dulled a set in a single afternoon.) He wrote some well known books,and teed' off every craftsman in Williamsburg with his stupidity and arrogance.

[Joseph Klosek]

Thanks George.

I also did a quick search and found out some information as well.

It appears I have been doing this for years without a ruler when I was a finish carpenter. I also used my belt sander to grind bevels on my chisels and plane irons too. Smoked some of the softer irons as well! Just ended up having to grind off more.

And I thought I was smart.

I was just too dumb to know any better.

But my tools were always sharp(enough).

J.P.

[James Phillips]

I am going to go back to my orignal point in this thread and say for what I spent I am very happy. I could have gone the hock route with blade and ship breaker for about $30 less (but would not have gotten the DVD which I enjoyed), or I could have lived with the stanley blade. The feel and I think improved performance was worth it to me.

If others feel like it is too expensive, then do not buy it, but be wary of assuming those of us that did are less of wood workers.

I also have a SawStop so there is another tool that creates a lot of debate :D

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't get into any of that who is and who isn't a craftsman stuff based on tools, and it's not like I'm afraid to spend money. There are plenty of craftsmen with a lot of money wrapped up in tools.

The same as it doesn't make you not a craftsman, there isn't anything about it that will, either. I am not a "craftsman", but I can still recognize that what makes one isn't related to 3 hundredths of steel.

I agree with you 100% about the "your shop, your tools, your money, your decision", though.

[David Weaver]

Rob, I was not able to find your gallery navigating previously. Glad to see it.

[Robert Culver]

look I will just say it. All flat surfaces MATCH. Thicker don't mean better all the time. If you got the extra cash to blow more power to you my hat is off to you . As for myself I will be pretty carful how I spend my cash. No disrespect is ment here. I will say this though I live next to a Amish comunity there work is amazing and I bet my next paycheck I can't find one of these out there.

[John Coloccia]

For every product, there's always a handful of people that must crusade to tell you how you're wasting your money and how the product is not worth it.

[James Phillips]

I bought a product with my money that I was happy with and thought I would share with you all in case anyone wanted some user feedback. I did not come here to say that this was the only solution or that every one should go out and buy one, but to me it was worth what I spent.

I get really distraught with other people harp on how others of us spend our $$. I really like this site, but this type attitude really bothers me. If you want to tell me the tool is sub-standard based on your use I welcome that. I am always open to feedback on tool quality, but I do not think we should judge one another based on how much we spent for a tool. I have tools where I have gotten great deals and I am sure I have tools that I have over paid for, but I have always spent only my $$.

I may need to take a break from the site for a while.

[David Weaver]

look I will just say it. All flat surfaces MATCH. Thicker don't mean better all the time. If you got the extra cash to blow more power to you my hat is off to you . As for myself I will be pretty carful how I spend my cash. No disrespect is ment here. I will say this though I live next to a Amish comunity there work is amazing and I bet my next paycheck I can't find one of these out there.

The amish people I know don't really even use hand tools much. When they "do dovetails", they have a dovetailer that does the entire drawer side at one time, and they spray a pre-cat laquer on their work (and they do it well). The only real big difference I can see is the motors on the tools are swapped out for hydraulic motors and the dust collection isn't so great.

[David Weaver]

If you want to tell me the tool is sub-standard based on your use I welcome that.


Nobody actually even said that.

The whole reason I brought it up is because I have used *all* of them, and the packaging said something about holding an edge longer than other irons, which I found not to be true. I didn't say that it held an edge less, just not longer. The term "superior metallurgy" has been used on here about this before, too, which is misleading, all of the irons are of similar quality in terms of metallurgy or one would clearly stand out vs. the other in an actual test.

I have one of the irons that was polished, not the early ones that got out without a polish, and what I did find was that it still was not totally flat with my stones (which are lapped with a diamond plate every use) - it was very close, but I couldn't work the wear bevel off at the edge with a flat polish stone. I don't know if they're lapped first and then polished, but one thing is clear if you're not ruler tricking your irons, they have to be dead flat to work the wear bevel off of the back side when you sharpen, so even if it's polished, unless it's dead flat, you will still be working the back side. If you're ruler tricking, then it's not a worry because they are close enough that the ruler trick will work with no extra work. To be fair, even if you do need to work the back a little, they are a lot easier to work than an iron that has deep grinding marks.

The lapping process used by the LV irons makes them dead flat all the way to the edge. The are the only ones I've seen like that. I did not count strokes for cryo vs. non-cryo irons (the LVs are the only ones I know of non-cryo). It would be interesting if someone wanted to do an objective test of a couple of non-cryo vs. cryo irons to see if it amounts to anything in use. i'm not doing a stroke test again, all of these irons last so long that it takes forever to do it, and it really needs to be done in a wood that doesn't wreck iron edges immediately (like teak or glinty cocobolo) because they can bias results that you'd see in a hardwood.

None of this is to take away anything from any of the instructional material that Rob does nor what David Charlesworth does, because the instructional material from both of them is excellent.

Nor is it to imply that the IBC is not a very good iron, because it is a *very good iron*.

Feel free to block me, as I'm mostly responsible for the blow up on this thread. I'm not offended by that. Some people like to talk details, some don't.

[Josh Rudolph]

I bought a product with my money that I was happy with and thought I would share with you all in case anyone wanted some user feedback. I did not come here to say that this was the only solution or that every one should go out and buy one, but to me it was worth what I spent.

I for one appreciated you input...after the last go around with this product I think everyone was trying to steer clear. I was on the fence then about the product and then the way things were handled in the thread, it pushed me a certain way. I am still interested in the product but don't really want to pay the extra $30 for the DVD.
What really starts the downward turn to threads like these is when sales propaganda for the product shows up. We come here to discuss products, techniques, and projects (at least I do). Getting a sales pitch in the middle of a thread really gets people fired up...I know it puts a bad taste in my mouth. Let the products speak for itself through the customers. Trust me...if it is a bad product...it will be known. Same goes if it is a good one.
I personally don't care how much anyone spends on anything. It is their money and their right to spend it how they choose. I do hope they will chime in when a product they may have is being discussed and give their opinion. I agree with what John C. said, it is a shame that it happens, but it does. I guess it makes them feel better?



I may need to take a break from the site for a while.
No need to do that...just ignore the naysayers and get on with what you need to do.

[Brian Kent]

James,

I'll repeat what I said when I first saw your post. I really appreciate a review from someone who used the product. Than you very much for your post.

Usually we are not so fevered. This is a topic that got hot recently and you just stepped into it innocently.

Thanks for buying the product, trying it, and letting us know how it went.

Brian

ps. If you want some fun, try posting about Saw-Stop safety. We used to get just as worked up on Lie Nielsen vs. Lee Valley, but we calmed down and figured out that both are the best.

[Joel Goodman]

Truth is,there are great craftsmen who do work,and there are craftsmen who do work and write a book every time they do something. That's the God's truth. I've met several of them. Some of them asked very silly questions of me. One told me he had been using the same planer blades for 20 years.( I must be doing something very wrong. Several times I've dulled a set in a single afternoon.) He wrote some well known books,and teed' off every craftsman in Williamsburg with his stupidity and arrogance.

George, There was a period when lots of people were sailing around the world, often alone, and then writing books about their adventures. I remember reading an interview with one chap who had just circumnavigated alone and announced that he intended to be the first not to write a book. This doesn't imply that you shouldn't write a book. Please do -- I'll buy a copy for sure!

[george wilson]

Well,those long voyagers have lots of time to write books!!:)

[Joel Goodman]

But they all wrote them after they got back home!

[Jim Koepke]

But they all wrote them after they got back home!

Maybe it was because they had a lot of time by themselves, since friends and family were avoiding getting trapped into listening to stories or watching slide shows.

:D

jtk

[george wilson]

I thought they kept logs.:)

[Jim Koepke]

I thought they kept logs.:)

I thought that was for floatation incase they started taking on water.
:D
jtk

[Bill Melidones]

The ruler trick is a CRUTCH of laying your plane iron face down on the whetstone,with a thin 6" pocket scale on the edge of the stone,to more easily get rid of small grinding scratches on the flat side of the blade.

Unfortunately, I didn't write a book about it,or do a video about it,so I don't get any credit for "one of the greatest sharpening advances". I happen to know how to move a tool a very small amount without a crutch.

What about Leonard Lee? Doesn't he get any credit for sharpening advances? Trouble is,I know people who were grinding higher blade angles many years before his book came out,too.

Truth is,there are great craftsmen who do work,and there are craftsmen who do work and write a book every time they do something. That's the God's truth. I've met several of them. Some of them asked very silly questions of me. One told me he had been using the same planer blades for 20 years.( I must be doing something very wrong. Several times I've dulled a set in a single afternoon.) He wrote some well known books,and teed' off every craftsman in Williamsburg with his stupidity and arrogance.
I realize I'm late to this thread, but I'm here now.

I find it amazing that folks feel the need to criticize other woodworkers that haven't been woodworking for years, and the need to use a CRUTCH, as you call it, to achieve results. Some even criticize the books and videos produced to help the new guy out (your sarcastic remark sounds a lot like sour grapes). I suppose that if those critical of the practice don't appreciate that we new guys use the books, videos, and crutches, they should open a woodworking school or apprenticeship program to teach us.

I really appreciate some of the videos and books in my library, and don't feel I would have achieved any amount of success to this point without them.
Living here in the southwest there are few if any quality schools that I can afford to attend within commuting distance. Consequently, I use a lot of books and videos to learn woodworking. I am thankful to those who chose to write or produce a video to help the rest of us. And truth be told I don't believe any of them are becoming independently wealthy from the book or video proceeds.

I appreciated the original post on this thread. I may/may not consider buying the blade myself based on a woodworker's experience/opinion. But even if I don't it won't be due to the "I know something you don't know" posts that followed. I have spoken to Ron Hock on the phone, he's a super guy and with little encouragement will delve into the atomic structure of different types of steel and the processes involved in producing blades. While its really cool that he knows that stuff, and readily shares that knowledge, what's important to me, the new guy, is "will it work the way I need it to", and that's what James Phillips' thread was supposed to be about in the first place. Most of the rest of this thread is nothing more than background noise that benefits no one. Especially the new guys.

[David Weaver]

That last statement really isn't true.

It would benefit a lot of people to start with old sources of written material and then buy videos, take courses, etc and spend a lot of money if they need to.

One thing that will ring your ears a little is if you look at robert wearing's book (for $20) and find out just how much of it was spun into instructional videos that really didn't do anything but reiterate a very small part of what was in the book, but at a large multiple of the cost.

what you don't want to do is get into a situation where you are afraid to do anything that doesn't show up in videos or in classes. that's a very expensive way to have a very narrow set of skills and create work that just looks like someone else's.

I don't think any of the people putting together videos and teaching are doing it for charity, the exception maybe being Chris Schwartz. I'm not aware of any others, at least.

(I do use the ruler trick from time to time)

[Bill Melidones]

Brian,

I'm a new guy and may have missed the increadibly obvious while looking for answers to the merely obvious. I have seen the new Pinnacle blades at Woodcraft and have some questions. Will they work with the existing chipbreaker and mouth configuration? (I also am leary of filing the mouth of my planes)

I have several stanley planes equipped with hock irons and chipbreakers that perform reasonably well in my limited opinion. So would there be any marked advantage to replacing the hock with the pinnacle blade? Or should I just wait and try one out on a stanley not already tuned up? What's your opinion?

I will also volunteer my opinion that after purchasing and restoring old stanleys and then purchasing and using the the Lie-Nielsen planes, that for my use, I prefer to wait a while, save a little more money and buy the new LN. By the time I'd purchased an old stanley, premium blade and chipbreaker and then cleaning and tuning it to death I still had a tool that was for me inferior to the new LN. I have the utmost respect for those who restore the old tools and use them, and acknowledge that the problem may be with the guy doing the tuning. But realistically, I got into woodworking to work wood, not restore tools; even though at times it was quite fun and rewarding.

[David Weaver]

I'll offer my unsolicited opinion as someone who makes planes and restores them, and as someone who has the IBC irons, hocks, LNs, LVs, and has no financial interest in any of them ...

You can disregard it if you wish, I don't mind.

* There will be no benefit to replacing a hock iron with an IBC iron, just as there would be no benefit to replacing an ibc iron with a hock iron. There may be some subjective things such as a "heavier" feeling or if the tabs work out, less backlash, but for practical purposes, no difference.

* The thicker IBC irons that are meant for this discussion, and not the stanley replacements will fit in some mouths without filing (mostly newer planes) and others not. You may run across mouths that don't even tolerate hock irons from time to time, even though they're only a touch thicker than stock irons. If you have an LN plane and we're talking about 0.125 irons or 0.14 in the case of 7s, take the iron out and bed it on the plane and see if it gets through the mouth while still bedded to the frog. If you can confirm the thickness is the same as the IBC iron, you'll be able to answer your question pretty easily.

* filing the mouth on a plane that isn't really valuable is no problem. If you can lay out what you want to file with a marking fluid and a scribe (so you keep everything square) or a square (from both sides of the plane cheeks for good measure) and marker that leaves a crisp line, you can trust your eyes and be able to do a pretty good job of getting close and then check that things are square by seating the iron and visually checking (I have not seen rob's video, so I don't know how he prescribes doing it, that is the method I have used to fit irons to fixed mouths on infills for a very tight and even fit).

I agree with your assessment of using a lie nielsen plane versus a restored plane, it's still a nicer plane to use. It's still going to be flatter, especially in long planes, the sides are square, and it's still going to be more durable and if you don't want to keep it, very easy to sell without having to split it up to get most of your money back.

[george wilson]

Bill,you haven't seen my work. If you had,you'd know I don't need to resort to "sour grapes". I just encourage people to develop some personal skills at simple tasks like sharpening.

You apparently are very new here. Advise you get to know some of us before casting aspersions about what we say.

[Sean Hughto]

George, sour grapes???!!??!!

You really are new!

[george wilson]

It isn't sour grapes as you know,Sean. Like I said,I just think a lot of guys go to excessive lengths to do what is really a simple operation. I never heard of gadgets like sharpening jigs when I was young. Never heard of white grinding wheels,even. They weren't available to the woodworking crowd until comparatively recent years. I certainly do use the white wheels,but never use any sharpening jigs. I just learned how to put the blades on the stones at the correct angle by eye.

As I've said,I tend to do everything the hard way anyway,though. Somehow I've muddled through without the ruler trick.

[Sean Hughto]

George, I thought it funny that the poster thought you were somehow jealous or needed to demean something you couldn't attain, relating to tools and sharpeing no less!). It's such a ridiculous concept.

That said, you likely wouldn't respect my sharpening efforts. I often sharpen tools by hand alone (for many there is no other alternative), but I like my Wolverine for turning gouges, and my eclipse for neat chisel bevels. I'm not worried about it in the least however. Sharpening, while important, is hardly worth thinking about, compared to making good pieces. Cheers!

[george wilson]

I did pick up a new-in -the-box Jet wet wheel grinder for cheap at a place I usually buy used machines. No attachments. It soon quit working. I discovered there was a cracked wire connector literally as thin as a beer can. Soldered it. It worked last time I used it. I tried to turn it on the other day to sharpen some kitchen knives for a friend. NOW it doesn't work AGAIN.

I did enjoy it while it worked since it doesn't worry about burning tools,and leaves a nice,smooth grind. But WTF???? Dealers have told me these grinders often don't work right out of the box. The guy at Jet's repair shop lectured me on how proud they were of their products. What an idiot!!

[Sean Hughto]

My Tormek has worked like a champ for many many years. I think it's rated for continuous operation, not that I've ever even begun to stress it in that regard, given I'm just a hobbiest.

[David Weaver]

My Tormek has worked like a champ for many many years. I think it's rated for continuous operation, not that I've ever even begun to stress it in that regard, given I'm just a hobbiest.


I have an old original tormek that I got used, it also works every single time.

Stories like this are why I ponied up the dollars for a baldor grinder, and why I also wonder why, when labor is so much cheaper overseas, why manufacturers can't take advantage of the cheap labor and use it to their advantage (by having more layers of QC or using better materials) instead of just building junk.