Newbie questions on waterstone flattening

[Lewis Cobb]

Hi Folks -
I've been reading some old sharpening articles in Popular Woodworking by David Charlesworth and I'm fully psyc'd up to embark on the hand tool path, starting with the only plane that I own - a Bailey 5 that was left to me when my dad passed away some years ago. The blade was reasonably sharp when I started tinkering with it, but it's getting dull and so that's what led me off to the articles on sharpening.

I have a question on the flattening of waterstones. Charlesworth mentions that you can use a coarse DMT stone to flatten them - if I have a 800 and a 8000 grit stone, would I need to get a coarse and a fine flattening stone as well? I'm not all that keen on using the sandpaper and float glass plate - I'm suspecting it will be more costly in the end if one plans to flatten frequently. Perhaps I'm off on this thought.

Thanks for any tips people can pass along.

Cheers,
Lewis

[Will Boulware]

I use a 220 (black spot) DMT to flatten my 1000, 4000, and 8000 Norton's. Works like a charm. That being said, I'm about as far from an expert as you can get, so I'll stand around and wait for one of them to chime in.

[John Coloccia]

I use the Red and Blue DMT DuoSharp. If you get that, you can say buh bye to the 800 stone, with the added advantage that you will no longer need to soak any stones (the 8000 only requires a spritz of water to work). You don't need to use a finer grit diamond stone for the finer water stone. I use the same right up to my 16,000 shapton.

I use the coarse side of the Duosharp to flatten stones and backs. Also to change the bevel (though I use a Tormek now). I use the fine side to touch up an edge that's a bit rough. Then I go right from that to the 8000.

Actually, I'm using Spyderco now, but up until a week ago, that's what I was doing with great results.

By the way, I found that my Duosharp was dead flat. The coarse diamond stone I bought from them was NOT.

[Tri Hoang]

You only need one stone for sharpening...not two. To start, just get a piece of reasonably flat granite tile from your local home center & glue a piece of 220 W/D sand paper to it, perhaps with 3M 77. Once your sharpening skill improves, you could explore other options.

The DuoSharp backing can get out of flat after some time...mine was out of flat after about 2 years. The 10" version costs over $100...so it not cheap.

[Lewis Cobb]

I use the Red and Blue DMT DuoSharp. If you get that, you can say buh bye to the 800 stone, with the added advantage that you will no longer need to soak any stones (the 8000 only requires a spritz of water to work). You don't need to use a finer grit diamond stone for the finer water stone. I use the same right up to my 16,000 shapton.

I use the coarse side of the Duosharp to flatten stones and backs. Also to change the bevel (though I use a Tormek now). I use the fine side to touch up an edge that's a bit rough. Then I go right from that to the 8000.

Actually, I'm using Spyderco now, but up until a week ago, that's what I was doing with great results.

By the way, I found that my Duosharp was dead flat. The coarse diamond stone I bought from them was NOT.

Hmmmm - not soaking things has an appeal for sure. I'll have a dig into those duo sharps in my research as well. What's a good mail order place for all this stuff?

Also - this brings up another question which I think you have answered - you can use these to establish the primary bevel as well ?

[Steve Branam]

I've had good results ordering from both Tools For Working Wood (though they don't carry DMT) and SharpeningSupplies.com. One nice thing TFWW has is a Norton DVD for $12 on sharpening featuring Joel (TFWW is his site, and Norton commissioned him to make the video for them). It's not long, but it covers waterstone usage nicely.

[Ashwini Kaul]

Just be careful to dry your DMTs inbetween uses. It tends to get rusty!

[Rich Purdum]

In one of his hand tool DVDs, Frank Klausz uses 120 grit taped to a sheet of melamine covered MDF. The waterstone must be dry and the paper is dry too. In the video he uses a precision straight edge to demonstrate that glass is not always flat. I have a piece of glass that happens to be flat so I use that and 220 wet or dry. Seems to work fine for me.

[James Phillips]

Another vote for granite and sandpaper. As a matter of fact I just finished a sharpening session and it worked like a charm

[Brian Kent]

I flatten my stones with a granite tile and 120 sandpaper. Works just fine.

[Paul Saffold]

$5 granite tile from Lowes (12"X12") and a dry wall sanding screen for water stones.

If you use rolls of sandpaper, the borgs have tile and marble thresholds that are pretty reasonable. You only need 1. They will give you a longer stroke.

I picked up a granite cut off from a kitchen counter fabricator, 3 X 24 " for free. I use that with 120 grit to rehab old plane blades. Square up and establish new bevels. Mostly it collects dust but its handy when you need it.

[Mark Baldwin III]

In using my waterstones, I've also noticed that you really need to pay attention to the blade that you are sharpening. As soon as you notice an irregularity in the blade, check your stone. If you reflatten it at that point, it will go quicker and you can use a finer grit. By the time it occurred to me to flatten my stone the first time, it was pretty bad. It took some time with 80 grit on my granite, and then tweaked it with some 150. All flattening was done dry. The next time, it only took a few minutes (after letting the stone dry out a while) to flatten it on the 150 grit.

[Pat Barry]

I didn't think that 150 or 220 grit sandpaper would be anywhere capable of actually putting a good sharpened edge on a woodworking tool. I figured you needed to be 800 grit WD minimum. I can't see getting an edge sharp enough with the lower grits.

[Rich Purdum]

Pat, we're talking about flattening sharpening stones, not sharpening tools. Waterstones work fast but they dish fast too. To bring the sharpening surface back to flat, you need to lap and that's what this discussion is about.

[Pat Barry]

Rich - thanks for clarifying. Gotta learn somehow.

[Andrew Gibson]

I bought all my water stones from LV. I have 200, 800, 1200, 4000, 8000.
I use the 200 to flatten all of my other stones.

I tried using 120 grit sanding mesh on granite to flatten the 200 stone. The 200 stone just ate the paper, then I remembered someone saying you can flatten stones on the sidewalk... I gave it a try and it worked very well. no more buying sand paper for flattening.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Lewis,

You don't 'need' a coarse and fine flattening device for coarse and fine stones. Something in the #300-1200 grit range will work, usually tending toward the lower range.

It depends on what stones you actually have as to what will actually work to flatten your stones.

If you have what I like to refer to as 'old school', clay binder stones such as old syle King and Norton stone, then almost anything will work well. Sandpaper on something flat, drywall screen on the same, diamond plate, flattening stone.

If you have newer, 'plastic binder' stones such as Naniwa Superstones or Shapton Glass Stones, then you really do need something that can be used wet, as the binder will tend to clog and 'pick up' on whatever you use to flatten them. Lots of water will prevent clogging and flush away the mud created whilst flattening. For these, a diamond plate with open grooves is practically essential.

If you have stones that use a hard binder such as Shapton Professional and 'M' series, Sigma Power, Bester, Naniwa Chosera, King Hyper, etc, etc. Then again, almost anything will work, with a great preference to 'open groove' diamond plates because they an be used wet, and again prevent clogging while flattening. Sandpaper is not really durable enough, simple because the adhesive binding the abrasive to the paper is not much, if any more durable that the binder holding the abrasive in the stone. Loose grit on a flat surface also works well here, and is very economical as the grit is not expensive and a little goes a long way.

An example of this is the Shapton flattening plate, which uses a surface ground cast iron plate with many deep grooves in it's surface, and comes with two small bottles of loose SiC grit. This is one of the correct methods for flattening Shapton Professional stones, and also works for other similar stones.

I personally use an Atoma Plate. I resisted one for a very long time, but once I used one, I was converted. I've looked into getting a DMT purely for comparison purposes, but can't seem to make the leap, mainly because of the frequent claims that they are not flat. I can't afford to send one of these back and forth from the US to Japan in order to get a flat one.


So, that's about all I'm going to go on about here. If I go any further, I will end up pushing the rules here hard enough that I will get into trouble, because yes, I do sell waterstones.

Good luck with it,

Stu.

[Don Dorn]

$5 granite tile from Lowes (12"X12") and a dry wall sanding screen for water stones.


That's my method too, works very well and I get two uses out of a screen.

[john brenton]

I used to use a diamond stone, but now use the Norton #220 drywall mesh spray glued to my granite plate. One thing though, if you use that method you may want to use circular motions...I've noticed that if I just go back and forth it will leave grooves on the stone.


That's my method too, works very well and I get two uses out of a screen.

[Lewis Cobb]

Gents -

Thanks a million for all your suggestions and "real world" experience. After reading articles and then looking at all the options it sent my head spinning, but I think I have narrowed the field down for my initial sharpening and flattening "education". As many have pointed out, for the low cost (at least to get started), the granite tile and sandpaper, with a couple of "old school" waterstones (as Stu phrased it) should get me started.

I have to re-establish the bevel on the iron I have at the moment, and perhaps some good old sandpaper on glass will get me going there. Then I'll move over to the waterstones.

There's a lot to learn about this subject as I am finding out. There also seems to be as many techniques as there are people doing sharpening :)

Cheers,
Lewis