At what price level to you expect / demand a perfect new tool?

[Ben Cadotte]

There are gloats and anti-gloats all over this forum. I just recieved a tool with major components missing. And becuase of who I ordered it from there was no way to confirm if the other parts were indeed forgotten / shipped on its own. Only choice was to return and reorder. There have been several complaints about getting a machine and it being broken / not right out of the box.

Not getting into a particular manufacturer or seller. What pricing level do you make the demands of a perfect machine, 100% right out of the box? Obviously nobody wants a broken or hard to assemble machine. But at what price level are you more open to fixing, tweaking, or modifying. At what level should you be allowed to send a defective machine back vs. sending to a service center. Should the seller / manufacturer be responsible for the shipping costs if it does go back or to a service center.

I have some cheap chinese tools that expectations were not high. And a couple needed some tweaking to work 100% correctly. But due to the price I paid, it didn't bother me. I had 1 big name tool where the grind was so roungh on the cast iron bed I nearly sent it back, but chose to instead smooth it down myself since it was not that critical.

Where do you draw the line in accepting something that is not totally correct? At what point are you willing to forgo shipping costs for a return?

[David Prince]

I don't think I would consider any concessions if something was missing from a NEW tool. Yes, maybe some minor blemishes considering a lesser brand, but not missing parts. Quality is one issue, but missing a part is another.

[Rod Sheridan]

Ben, I don't consider it a price issue, I consider it a size issue.

If I can pick it up and carry it, like a mitre saw for example, then I would expect a straight exchange, or repair at the option of the warranty provider, and I could ship it or drive it there.

If I bought a table saw that had a broken guard, I would expect a new guard to be shipped to me, as that's something an owner should be capable of taking care of.

If the saw had major problems, I would expect a field service Tech at my house to correct the issue.

To me it's similar to buying a dishwasher or fridge, if it has a problem, send a service Tech to my house and fix it.

Both of those items are far easier to move than a 350 Kg saw, and yet the appliance vendors understand that it's too big to move so they'll come to the customer.

I understand that a machinery company may not have employees everywhere, however they can either hire a third party company or fly their Tech to locations.

Mailing me a new cast iron top for a saw, with the expectation that I'll be capable of, or wish to undertake a repair of that magnitude isn't good customer service in my opinion.

Regards, Rod.

[Joe Leigh]

No price is high enough for a perfect tool. As long as humans are involved there will be errors/omissions/mistakes. To expect anything less is unrealistic.
Rod is right, size is the key. If I receive a hand held power tool that is broken or damaged I'll return to the store and open a dozen boxes until I find an acceptable one.
For a table saw or drill press I expect the replacement parts to be delivered to me free of charge and in a timely manner. If the repair is too involved I expect the manufacturer to be held to his repair/return policy which I, as the consumer, have thoroughly researched and understand PRIOR to the purchase.

[Neil Brooks]

Olllld saying:

There's price, quality, and service.

Pick two ;)

[Brian Kent]

I expect even a Harbor Freight tool on clearance to be complete and adjustable to make it work right. I could forgive paint blemishes.

Most of my big tools are Grizzly and Delta. I expect them to work completely, be blemish-free, set up smoothly, and not have any structural corrections. They have delivered, except for a Delta grinder that runs smoothly but required hours of work getting the guards and guides square. I was new enough that I thought I was doing something wrong.

It is unthinkable to buy a $1,000 or more tool and not have it perform right.

[Callan Campbell]

As Rod S. correctly put it, sometimes it's about the size of the thing involved, and did it become a built-in like in the case of so many appliances. For woodworking stuff only topic, I and others seem to believe certain brands have marketed themselves in the very position you're asking about. Example:. I can buy lot of things from L-N, some low in cost, some pricey. I, and others, have an expectation that ALL of their goods provided will work right out of the box,[ honing & sharpened to your angle of taste/need , excluded:p] So for me, there's NO price point that I would be happy with a defective tool from L-N since they're worked hard to establish themselves as a high quality tool maker. A set of chisels or a plane from someone else?, I might work on the tool or finally contact the maker for assistance.
If it's a machine tool, then where is it in the price range for a given class of similar machines. And, it is used or new? I guess for the above I assign a certain price value and the "value expectations" with that price range without giving it much thought at times. Like:, well, it cost several hundred dollars more than the other machines, so it had better be good. Not a perfect thought process, but probably one that we all make with out much thought from time to time. One can adjust the assigned value based on reviews found here and elsewhere to change your perception of some tool or machine pretty quickly when someone posts trouble with a certain machine or hand tool.:p:p:p
This posted question also raises lot of interesting thoughts about certain brands can muddle through life providing great to awful products, while others get hung out to dry with just one bad item. Strange how the marketplace and people react.

[Will Overton]

Since at some point along the way, humans are involved in the process and humans aren't perfect, getting a perfect tool is hit or miss. Hopefully higher priced tools have a higher standard quality control. I don't remember the exact #'s, but years ago the inspection process of a Cadillac coming off the line allowed 3 x's the amount of time as a Chevy.

As for what to expect if there is a problem, you should know this before making a purchase. Don't buy something where the warranty says "return it to us", if you expect someone to come to your house. Although I never bought one, I do recall seeing some Sears service contract or extended warranties in the past that had in home service as a feature.

In most [not all] cases companies will stand behind there obligations, only a few will go beyond that. But on the other side of the coin I've never met a customer offers to pay more for a product than the asking price.

[Kent A Bathurst]

......... higher standard quality control. I don't remember the exact #'s, but years ago the inspection process of a Cadillac coming off the line allowed 3 x's the amount of time as a Chevy.....

After many years as an external and as an internal manufacturing process consultant, let me assure you of one of the basic "truths" of manufacturing: You cannot inspect quality into a product. You must have the design, processes, people, and mindset that builds quality into the product.

Reading your comment, I come to a completely different conclusion that you: Caddy had no clue how to manufacture a quality product, and had to throw bodies at it to look for screw-ups requiring correction before it could be shipped. How big was their "after-final-production-repairs" parking lot? Immediately makes me think of the Cadillac Catera - the "Caddy that zigs." A complete joke.

[Prashun Patel]

I think it's not possible to put a level on this.

Everyone makes mistakes. How often they make them, and how they resolve them is where the differentiation is.

Most of the time when I make a budget purchase, I expect some kind of deficiency. If it's from a reputable seller, I expect perfection or at least willingness on their part to right any wrongs.

I guess there's my answer: The expectation of perfection is based on the reputation of the seller.

Some sellers I'd expect perfection from: Lee Valley.

[Brian Kent]

On the definition of "Perfect", a pencil is perfect if it is half used up, with the paint chewed off, if I stick the pointy side down and it makes a mark, and with the pink side down it erases the mark.

[Will Overton]

You cannot inspect quality into a product.

True, but without inspection you can't tell if you have a problem, unless you want to wait for the customer to find it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

True, but without inspection you can't tell if you have a problem, unless you want to wait for the customer to find it.

Nope. Sorry. We can't agree on this one, Will. If there a person [or persons] in a manufacturing operation who is designated as "QC" or "QC Inspector" or something similar - or has that general type responsibility regardless of title - then there are underlying, fundamental problems that are neither recognized nor understood. That ship sailed a few decades ago.

At GM specifically, it sailed with Roger Smith as Chmn-CEO, and one can only hope that all his like-minded acolytes have finally been tossed over the gunwales. But, GM did by no means have a lock on that one - just following your lead-in.

[Neil Brooks]

[did some QC work myself....]

It's certainly true that one philosophy of quality control IS that quality is designed and engineered IN -- NOT tested OUT.

But that doesn't make Will wrong.

You design a process. You establish metrics against which to measure the success of that process. You keep your eye on those metrics. You adjust the process accordingly.

I don't see this as an either/or proposition....

[David Weaver]

There are gloats and anti-gloats all over this forum. I just recieved a tool with major components missing. And becuase of who I ordered it from there was no way to confirm if the other parts were indeed forgotten / shipped on its own. Only choice was to return and reorder. There have been several complaints about getting a machine and it being broken / not right out of the box.


I don't know who you ordered from but I've had something similar happen with amazon.

They shipped my TS and fence separately. The fence arrived with a bill for $1000, and the freight guy said to take it, I had to sign the bill that said "order complete".

I asked him if he knew where the rest of the saw was, he said he had no record. I called amazon and they told me I wasn't allowed to call the tool section for customer service. I called Cs, and they told me I could send it back or keep it. I was talking to someone overseas who had no idea what a table saw was.

Went back to the tool group there, anyway, and told them I had a situation that had no solution, that I couldn't send them anything back because I hadn't gotten it, and after about 2 days, they finally figured out that the rest of the saw was still in transit.

I had to take a second day off work because of that.

Never again.

[Van Huskey]

First, I think most of us have an fantasy level of expectation and a reality based level of the same. Most people buy the best machine/tool they are willing/can afford and there is the expectation that the machine/tool will be "perfect" out of the box, but there is also depending on the person and the price level a "real" expectation and understanding that things aren't perfect. I think the accurate portrayal is the point in the QC curve we as an individual get seriously frustrated or angry. I often think this level of "perfection" moves with how much one pushed their budget. For an analogy look at the car world: A person goes out and buys two cars, one a Kia Rio and one a Porsche 911 GT3RS, after 5,000 miles both drop a valve and their engines are ruined. Both companies tow the car, give a loaner and the cars have new engines installed and are back in two weeks with no money out of pocket. More often than not that owner will be more satisfied with the product from Kia and be significantly less happy with Porsche because it "shouldn't" have happened to the Porsche.

In the end I never expect perfection because as a symantic exercise it does not exist in man made products. I do however expect it to work within resonable woodworking tolerances, and if it doesn't I expect it to be fixed. Finally, I think it is a great time to be a woodworker, I would argue you can get more quality and capacity for your inflation adjusted dollar than any time in history, this may on occasion cause a little more frustration and anger as manufacturers try to balance features, price and quality control as long as the more for less push is coming from the consumers we are going to have to deal with less than "perfect" machines and in some cases a real lemon.

I do think it is interesting that I have not seen any manufacturer or third party extended service contracts, although I as a rule never buy them the fact they don't exist for machines makes be go HMMMMMM. Do BORGS offer them on their machines? I haven't bought a machine from them so I don't know if they have them for their machines or not.

[Will Overton]

Sorry. We can't agree on this one, Will.

I can live with that. :)

[Chris Friesen]

Nope. Sorry. We can't agree on this one, Will. If there a person [or persons] in a manufacturing operation who is designated as "QC" or "QC Inspector" or something similar - or has that general type responsibility regardless of title - then there are underlying, fundamental problems that are neither recognized nor understood. That ship sailed a few decades ago.

Suppose you have a spec that a particular part is machined to a particular tolerence. How do you ensure that it actually is? Presumably someone needs to check it. Or some machine needs to check it, in which case someone needs to verify that the checking machine is operating within tolerances.

I know at Veritas they check machining tolerences at multiple stages during manufacturing. Is that considered "building in" or "testing out"?

I'm honestly curious here...

[Callan Campbell]

Nope. Sorry. We can't agree on this one, Will. If there a person [or persons] in a manufacturing operation who is designated as "QC" or "QC Inspector" or something similar - or has that general type responsibility regardless of title - then there are underlying, fundamental problems that are neither recognized nor understood. That ship sailed a few decades ago.

At GM specifically, it sailed with Roger Smith as Chmn-CEO, and one can only hope that all his like-minded acolytes have finally been tossed over the gunwales. But, GM did by no means have a lock on that one - just following your lead-in.
Welll, then you're going to just love this little automotive jewel. Let's say a car company has some quality build/design issues on their A/C system of a given model. They spend MAJOR money on a fix for it, along with other items in the same vehicle under a "campaign" to fix all the known problems at once, not just the A/C issue. They spend money on the press releases telling everyone how they'll stand behind the product to fix all the issues.
They proudly send all the relevent bulletins and parts to their dealers. While all of this is going on they're introducing a new model, heavily based on the now stopped production model ,that uses a similarly layed out A/C system in the new model since it "worked" so well in the old one. Andddd, you guessed it, they built the EXACT same A/C fault into the new model, which requires the EXACT same parts replacement to correct, and PREVENT the issue from happening again. They spend millions on the older vehicle campaign, and then spend more millions fixing the next batch of vehicles under warranty until several years later when the A/C problem stops showing up in new vehicles because they finally tweaked one A/C line to stop rubbing on a part. Fun Huh.....:p:p:p

[Kevin Womer]

I can't put a number with my level of expectation of the quality of a product. Like others, I don't expect anything to be perfect (although my planes from Lee Valley were pretty close) but I do expect the company to correct problems that arise. All companies can QA products to death but what good is that if they won't make the effort to correct a problem for the customer? I'm not talking about minor scratches or minor deficiencies that don't affect the function of the tool in this case. I have many different tools in my shop from a wide variety of companies-except Saw Stop, they all have been pretty decent in correcting the few situations that have arisen and I have been pleased with the results without getting into specifics. I try to be reasonable with the customer service reps. and for the most part they have treated me in the same manner.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......they built the EXACT same A/C fault into the new model, which requires the EXACT same parts replacement to correct, and PREVENT the issue from happening again....

Callan - I am overwhelmed by my complete absence of surprise. Factories are all tooled up. Suppliers are sending in parts like there's no tomorrow. The marketing campaign is in full swing. The dealers are chomping at the bit. Someone finds the original problem. "Ummm......do we shut this thing down, or let 'er rip and fix it later?"

[Frank Drew]

I think the word perfect probably isn't very helpful here. With a new tool, I'd expect no major/serious issues affecting usability; a scratch in the paint in a table saw cabinet might or might not disappoint me (probably not), but it's not something I'd get all torqued up about and demand a replacement. A scratch in the top of a new dining table, or on the hood of a brand new car, however, those aren't acceptable.

I don't expect cosmetic perfection in my tools, but a new tool should work as advertised; all the parts should be there and be ready to go. With a used tool, you get what you get and I'd be ok with having to do more or less tuning up, parts finding, etc., as long as I was told, accurately, what to expect.

[John Coloccia]

I expect everything I buy (not just tools) to do exactly what the manufacturer claims it does, including anything drawn on the box. Nothing is perfect and I expect little hiccups every now and then. I don't expect it to cost me large sums of money or major inconvenience to get a problem on a new tool repaired. That's not really too unreasonable, it is?

[David Prince]

I will share a story about two tools I purchased. One was a lunchbox planer and the other was a handheld router. The planer was on clearance and was the display model. I got a super price on it, but the cord had a cut in it. I wrapped tape around it and called it good. I purchased a router on sale, but nothing spectacular as far as price went. When I opened the box it had a cut in the cord. I promptly returned it for a replacement. Each had a defect, but I was willing to accept a defect knowing that I got a good deal. A return for a replacement wasn't an option for the planer, but I still had a choice to either accept it or send it back. I did expect a higher level of quality when I was closer to regular price.

[Ben Cadotte]

Wow, it sounds like more people are willing to pay a couple thousand for a machine and accept it even if it has some issues that requires repair. I thought people would be a little more picky when the prices start to climb. I have the thinking that if I pay new prices for a machine it should operate like its a new piece of equipment. I should not have to send a new piece of equipment out for a repair. Especially right after I recieve it.

I happen to be a Quality Inspector for an airline. I don't think too many people would like it if I let things go that were only 80 or 90% correct! And yet it sounds like several people are willing to take tools and machines that way.

Like I said I don't expect things to be perfect with lower priced / cheaper copies of other tools. But say I buy a Festool Kapex. I expect it to not need a repair withing a reasonable amount of time over say a Harbor Freight $99 slide saw. To me having to send a Kapex for repair as soon as I get it or fairly soon, I would demand a new saw (just an example).

Of those of you saying your willing to accept a broken or impropperly working machine that needs repair right away. How many of you would keep a car where the engine blew the first day or so that you had it? And allow the dealer to overhaul the egine vs. giving you a new car? Where do you draw the line? Or due to the fact that most machines are shipped, do you feel there is no alternative than to keep it and get it serviced?

[glenn bradley]

First, I think most of us have an fantasy level of expectation and a reality based level of the same. Most people buy the best machine/tool they are willing/can afford and there is the expectation that the machine/tool will be "perfect" out of the box, but there is also depending on the person and the price level a "real" expectation and understanding that things aren't perfect.

Couldn't have said it better. I expect any purchase I have researched and thought out well, to be perfect. I realize there will be graduations. ;)

[Dan Karachio]

Oh this one is easy. The price I expect perfection at are Festool prices. Also, Lie Nielsen prices and Laguna prices.

[Peter Quinn]

I expect machines at all price points to be complete and perform the tasks as advertised. If they cannot perform or arrive with parts so far beyond tolerances that they cannot do accurate work, I expect them to be replaced by the seller or manufacturer. On a large machine like a TS it it might be under assembly in the shop before the problem, like a tweaked table or bad trunion gets realized, what then? Don't bother mailing parts to fix that to me, send me a return shipping invoice or a technician. Little parts like a handle or such, even an extension wing, I'll swap those out, but replacing the tops on a jointer or TS? I've seen people post such things and I can't imagine accepting such rubbish. Imagine getting a new car whose breaks don't work or transmission won't shift and having the dealership offer to send you the parts to fix it!

That said I have received numerous machines from several different major manufacturers, have never had a serious issue, have had one minor issue on a single machine that was resolved rather quickly, and am a generally happy camper in that regard.

[Justin Dreier]

Interesting question that I asked myself recently. I ordered a quality 8" jointer last month. The crate was in good condition and opening it up it all looked in order. I hired the thing hauled down to the basement before I took the wax paper off the ground surfaces.

After setting it up, removing the waxpaper and cleaning it up, I noticed a defect in the top of the jointer. A gouge that was small and rather noticeable, but not such that it would affect performance. The company after seeing the pictures offered a full replacement. Great, but even if I could get it back up stairs, there is no way I could get it boxed back up for transport. It wouldn't arrive in any reasonable condition.

The company worked out an arrangement that was satisfactory for me, but I still scratched my head and wondered how much do I need to pay to get a heafty machine like this with quality controls that would avoid a defect in a ground top? Paint scuff or dent, no problem, but a defect in the machined top...that struck me as not satisfactory.

[Dave Lehnert]

I expect every tool I buy, no matter the cost, to be in 100% usable condition. Now If I buy from a mail order retailer like Amazon (Most likely because it was cheaper,if not, I would buy it local) I accept the fact that if I have problem I may have to jump through some hoops and hassles to get it right. The main reason I have never purchased a large tool mail order. I always go local.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

How about a little reality check here?

I am not holding the prices for Northfield tools against them. Only the fine folks there know what price is required to make a reasonable profit and continue operating as a business.

But check this out....1st page of pricing....20" bandsaw.....
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist.htm


$9,000 then add options....Oh..you want a foot brake with that? that's $900 more.....and list of available options can cost up to $5,500.

Do you really think it's REASONABLE to expect that $1400 import to perform to the same level?

A comparable Mini-Max is $3600....and a comparable Grizzly is $2995.

Do you really think these cheaper saws should perform as well, be as reliable and have the same fit and finish?

Sorry. IMHO that is an unreasonable expectation on your part.

Your expectations for warranty work doesn't matter. Read the warranty. That's what you agreed to when you bought the machine. Typically it will spell out how warranty issues will be handled. Read it BEFORE you buy the WALMART special woodworking tool.

Customer service. As someone who has been in customer service for 34 years I will give you a little inside tip. The person on the other end of the phone or on the other side of the counter? Their manager typically gives them a little leeway as to how they can resolve or handle a customer complaint. Then it has to go to their Boss. Often he will ask them how they felt about the situation and their recommendation will carry considerable weight. Don't come across as an arrogant, angry calloused jerk. You may eventually get your desires but you will almost always have to earn it. Instead if you converse with them in a concerned unemotional informative respectful, friendly, non-confrontational manner you can often get even more than their legal obligation. I had a customer who brought a complaint to our management team. The problem with the situation was that the machine was 18 months outside of the warranty period. I talked with the customer and we decided to do a little research. He and I placed similar measurement tools in the locale and determined he had bought an accessory from us in the purchase of a multi-million dollar machine. The accessory wasn't designed to function in the climatic conditions where it was being used. The customer nor our sales team caught that before the sale, I hadn't been consulted during the sale and now we are 2 1/2 years later and 18 months outside the warranty. The guy involved is a nice guy. Funny...friendly....never complains....just a nice guy. So I told him after we got our measurements....You know we don't have any legal obligations here...hang on....this will take while....I can't guarantee anything but let me see what I can do. We had no obligation. It took me over a year but I finally convinced management and we replaced that accessory with a special order, special built to higher specifications and it cost my company over $25,000. We didn't have to do it but it was the right thing to do. If the same guy had been screaming, shouting, cussing, demanding, arrogantly being a jerk, you can bet I wouldn't have gone to the trouble and he'd still have the other accessory or replaced it using money from his own budget.

Rants at this site and others. So many folks you see post here are fairly new to woodworking. You have to try to figure out the experience level, mechanical aptitude and attitude of the person making the rant. Often the difference between being ignorant and stupid is one's attitude. An ignorant person doesn't have the knowledge. They don't know any better but they can learn. A stupid person is incapable of learning. We have had people post at this site....they receive a new tool.......they can't get it to work right......so they immediately start making major modifications to that tool. Then they admit they haven't even contacted the manufacturer's customer service department yet....large scale expensive tool and this person is making major mods to it without even talking to the company. Boys and girls can you spell "Voided Warranty"? ...and the modifications they made... weren't necessary or the right ones to make...:o..It was a setup/operator error..Take the rants you read at these websites..analyze them....is the same problem being posted several times? Then analyze if the problem is really that important.

Shipping...a lot of damage to equipment is caused during shipping. The equipments I've installed and maintained for the last 34 years can cost millions of dollars and are shipped on air cushioned trailers...solo...only thing on the trailer....wrapped in blankets...strapped....special trailers with built in overhead hoists and cranes to put devices that weigh several tons..on the ground. Sometimes we make a commitment to a customer ....and ship with 2 sets of drivers...non-stop...and we pay through the nose for it. And stuff still gets damaged and stuff gets lost and shipments get delayed. Don't ask my how. I am a man. I don't know everything. Just ask my wife.

Yugos don't perform like Ferraris. Expecting them to do so is unreasonable. Educate yourself on the product, the product warranty and the company and their customer service before you purchase something.


JMHO.

[John Coloccia]

Ken: No one is saying they have to perform like Northfields. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the $1400 bandsaw be delivered in working condition without broken parts and major surgery that has to be done.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

I agree. They should perform and meet manufacturers specifications, however.

There is no magic in these products and the CEOs of the companies importing these products aren't magicians. Something has to give to keep the prices this low. QC is one of the things that gave. The buyer must accept a certain amount of responsibility for these cheaper products that don't arrive in perfect shape. Regardless of place of manufacture, few products in this day and age are 100% tested and inspected prior to delivery. It's only reasonable to expect you may have to work with the company to resolve these QC issues.

If you want perfection, buy the expensive product and if it isn't near perfection rant freely. It should be near perfect for those kind of prices.

But when you are pay 10-30% of the same price for a "similar" product, realistically something has to give.

One of the reasons companies moved to overseas manufacturing was to keep the prices extremely low so they could broaden their market. That means with these super low prices, they can sell to those of us who would like to be hobbyist woodworkers but wouldn't pay the higher tool prices to get into the hobby.

The other thing you need to realize is that there are very likely more happy campers with these tools than rant here at the Creek and at other sites. If not, companies like Grizzly for example wouldn't be experiencing increasing sales all the time. For some reason, the rants I've seen here stick out in my mind and yet....there probably have been as many or more gloats for those tools.

There was recently a guy who received a SawStop with a problem. I forget now what the problem was but he reported they took care of it quickly. That is the only SS problem I can remember, though. But even the more expensive Asian made products can have problems. Yup, SawStop....engineered in the US but it's not manufactured here.

Manufacturer's specs....rants about 0.007" in a table top? If the manufacturers specifications is 0.015"..that is 1/64 of an inch......0.007 is less than 1/128th of an inch. Wood is a dynamic material......more so than most metals or most plastics. It's going to move due to changes in moisture....released internal tensions when cut.....etc.

If I had 0.007" run-out in a lathe drive spindle or chuck on a drill press that would be a different matter.

I love the one ESPN football commentators most recent funny yet serious line....

Come On Man!

[Brian Kincaid]

I think it has more to do with the way a product is priced/marketed.

Situation 1:
If my hypothetical new Grizzly stationary machine had a non-cosmetic defect I would expect Grizzly to offer me a new part/offer of repair/replace, etc. I have found Grizzly's service and prices to be top-notch. Their machines run well against non-italian counterparts, but this is not the premium(=perfect) price point for stationary machines. I'm thinking if they do not include in the price a technician to install and verify operation of the stationary tool then I will have to verify the final operation and request support if required.

Situatuion 2:
When I finally realized my Festool Domino fence had always been twisted (true story). I took it back to my local dealer where I purchased several weeks earlier. They verified the problem in front of me then replaced the unit. They took care of the shipment back to Festool, paperwork, etc. They just handed me the new systainer and said 'sorry, enjoy this one!' This was expected because imo Festool runs in the premium=perfect price point. If I get less than exceptional service out of them or their dealers I am disappointed with the premium I paid on the tool.

Here's a little secret I learned with my home theatre hobby: perfect is an illusion. You can spend 7 digits on a system but there will always be things about it that bother you because they do not work 'perfect'. It's best if you try to be satisfied before the spending gets out of control. Oh, and then your equipment will be obsolete in 10 years kthxbye! :eek:

-Brian

[Tom Walz]

Carbide Processors Guarantee


100% Satisfaction

Our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way. Return anything purchased from us at any time if it proves otherwise. We do not want you to have anything from Carbide Processors that is not completely satisfactory.

We have been doing it this way since 1981 and we feel it is the only way to run a business.

Sincerely,

Thomas J. Walz
President

This includes our $0.08 set screw and everything else.

1. Producing quality products is actually cheaper and easier once you get set up for it.
2. Quality is exactly what the customer says it is.

[John Coloccia]

This includes our $0.08 set screw and everything else.

Here's a good example. I can buy lesser set screws for $0.05, and while they set accurately enough for woodworking use, I'm willing to pay the 60% premium for a customer service rep to come out to my house when I discover one that's out of round by .002".

:p

Seriously...it's nice that there are companies out there that publicly stand behind their products with simple, easy to understand language, as opposed to a page of legalize and hedging. In return I guess we're all expected to be reasonable, and hopefully most of us are. :)

[Chip Lindley]

This thread has been all over the place! Surely there is room for me to take one more approach.

I do not buy new tools. I look for really decent bargains on machines that should have some quality built into them, and some decent life left in them. I do not pay list (or on-sale) price. I pay a paltry sum for a machine that cost 3 or 4 or 10 times what I pay when it was new.

I am willing to accept some defects as normal, with previous ownership and age. I transport the machine myself, so no shipper is involved to loose it, or bash it.

Buying decent used machinery takes lots of heartbreak or disappointment out of the ownership process. My "new" 1988 PM66 has a wobbly elevation wheel. I will fix that eventually. But the saw top is almost pristine for a tablesaw 22 years old. The paint is probaby better than that on some imports that are splashed with salt water on their trek from China to your door.

IF I were to buy a NEW big, heavy stationary machine, I would be a BEAR to deal with. I find little room for error when a brand new "anything" is bought at list price with my stingy fistful of dollars! Rather than take "potluck" in ordering a machine sight-unseen, I would drive to the distrubution center and pick it up myself. I would insist the crate be broken open for my personal inspection. Otherwise, NO Deal!

Who buys a family automobile without test-driving it? You sit in it, sniff the new-car fragrance, push all the buttons and dial in the radio. Then you take it for a spin! You come back and kick the tires and run your hand over the fenders. After all this you sign on the dotted line. You have seen what you are buying up close and personal! Subsequent issues are taken care of by the owner's warranty.

It has been decades since I drove a brand new car off the lot with only double-digit miles. I have had better luck, and easier monthly payments, buying last year's model with less than 20K on the odometer. Thats still Cherry in my book!