Going to a deeper level of Neander?

[Phillip Ngan]

One of the consequences of moving from Canada to Down Under is that I have to leave my woodworking machines behind because of the difference in electrical voltage and frequency. So I'm saying good bye to my table saw, jointer, thickness planer, router, jigsaw, drill press, sander, etc.:(

One possibility is to go to a deeper level of neander in the future. (The other is to build up the tool collection again). If so, what kinds of tools should I consider buying to replace the functionality that I'll be loosing. My current collection includes: bench chisels, a workbench, bevel up and bevel down hand planes, dovetail saws, Disston panel saws, spokeshave, and a router plane.

Things I might consider are: mortise chisels, plow plane, carcass/tenon saws, rabbet plane, scrub plane.

Has anyone converted to full being a full neander, and what was the experience like?

Thanks
Phillip

[David Laaneorg]

Tom Fidgen did that, but he just moved from Cape Breton to Toronto. He currently does all of this work by hand. Thus the impetus to write his book: Made by Hand (http://www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com/).

No, I'm not Tom in disguise, I just enjoyed the book and was educated as well as inspired.

[john brenton]

I'm sure the first question would be "What do you make?" It sounds like you have just about everything you need. With the hand tools, the bench and the router I don't see any handicap.

If you've ever seen videos of guys in the middle east or elsewhere turning spindles on a bow lathe it really puts things in perspective. I could have the newest JET and the primo tools and not do what they do with a hand powered lathe and one skew chisel held between their toes.

That kind of calms my desire to go ape ---- on the tool acquiring. Hand tools are way cooler than machines, and we as men are just big boys...so it can get out of hand with the "oh, I need that...not now technically...but I'm imagining the project where I'm definitely going to need it", or buying the specialty tool instead of making a jig or modifying an existing tool.

Card scrapers and a burnisher (although you can use other things to burnish) are at the top of the list. They're cheap though.

[Trevor Walsh]

I'd say in order of need to complete that tool list you might look at carcass or sash saws (rip and cross) then a scrub (this might be #1 if you're working from split or rough lumber) then a brace and bit set (I hog out most of my mortises with a drill), followed maybe the plow (I love mine, a Record 044) then mortise chisels. You could always build hollow and round planes, rabbet planes etc. living in a place like that it might be better/cheaper/faster to make your own tools than buy some.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Think about the operations you currently use your power tools for. Then think about how you would do that without the power tools. If you don't have a way to perform an operation by hand that you typically do using power, then you need the proper tool to do that task.

Here are a few examples (by no means all inclusive):

Ripping

By machine: bandsaw or table saw
By hand: long, large toothed rip saw

Cross Cutting

By machine: chop saw or radial arm saw
By hand: long or panel sized crosscut saw

Cutting Mortises

By machine: dedicated mortiser; router & jig; drill press
By hand: mortise chisels

Cutting Tenons

By machine: table saw w/tenon jig; table saw w/ dado stack
By hand: tenon saw, mortise gauge & marking knife

Cutting Rabbets

By machine: router; table saw w/ dado stack
By hand: rabbet plane

Cutting Dados (cross grain grooves)

By machine: router; table saw w/ dado stack
By hand: dado plane

Cutting Grooves (along the grain)

By machine: router; table saw w/ dado stack
By hand: plow plane

There's just a few examples. I'd sit down and figure out all the different operations you currently use your machines for now, then think about how you'd accomplish the same task with the tools you have. If you can't figure a way to do it with the tools you have, then you need a new tool for that operation.

[Phillip Ngan]

Robert, thanks for your systematic answer to my question.

I do all of those operations that you mentioned.

I typically work with large maple boards (10 ft long, 12" wide) . In future I will build items like bookshelves and dressers:

Jointer:
- create a true face
- create a true edge
- create tapers

Thickness planer
- create a face parallel to the true face
- create loose tenons

Drill press
- to drill perpendicular holes, up to 1/2" diameter with drill bits and larger using Forstner bits

The other day I was using my table saw to rip out a 2 1/2" x 3/4" section out of 6 foot bed rails thinking to myself "how could I possibly do to this using hand tools?" I think this conversation is making me realize that foregoing power tools for the types and size of items I want to make, will not be practical. To be clear, my deliberations are economically driven, not because I want to be pure neanderthal for idealogical reasons.

Nonetheless, I think I should stock up on hand tools before I leave.

[Jeremy Dorn]

Well, if you think about it a bit, you really could have made that long deep cut out (which I assume is rabbet like) on the bed rails by hand, it just would requite more time that you'd use doing it on a table saw.

A rabbeting plane like a #78 could have been used to hog out the material in a # of passes. Lately I've had the occasion to drop some rabbets in he 1.25" x 3/8" size into some oddly shaped triangle pieces and found that the plane made much quicker work of it than dragging out the dado, and setting it up. Just took a some sweat and time :)

[Steve Branam]

I typically work with large maple boards (10 ft long, 12" wide) . In future I will build items like bookshelves and dressers:

Jointer:
- create a true face
- create a true edge
- create tapers

Thickness planer
- create a face parallel to the true face
- create loose tenons

Drill press
- to drill perpendicular holes, up to 1/2" diameter with drill bits and larger using Forstner bits

The other day I was using my table saw to rip out a 2 1/2" x 3/4" section out of 6 foot bed rails thinking to myself "how could I possibly do to this using hand tools?" I think this conversation is making me realize that foregoing power tools for the types and size of items I want to make, will not be practical. To be clear, my deliberations are economically driven, not because I want to be pure neanderthal for idealogical reasons.

Nonetheless, I think I should stock up on hand tools before I leave.

You can absolutely do all of these things with hand tools. Yes, it's more physically laborious to handsaw vs. push it over a table saw, and maple is certainly harder to work by hand than other woods. But not that much more when doing things in small quantities. Ten or twenty pieces adds up to a lot of work, but not 1, or 2, or 4. Which for a hobbyist is generally the quantity required.

The bed rails can be done with a ripsaw, then cleaned up with a jointer plane. Yes, you can hand-rip a 6' length of 3/4" stock 2 1/2" wide (or even 2 1/2" stock 3/4" wide). You just have to learn how to handle the ripsaw and steer it. Practice on some easier lumber first, it just takes a few before you get pretty good at it.

Case in point, Monday night I was teaching an intro hand tools class where I had everybody rip a 2" width off a 5' board. The point was to show them that they could maintain a 2" width (with some slop) for 5'. Doesn't matter how ugly the cut is, since it will be cleaned up with a plane. The main thing is to know how much error margin you need (does your current skill level require a quarter-inch of tolerance in your cut line, or a sixteenth?). More practice means you can cut to finer tolerance, leaving less to cleanup with the plane.

Properly tuned tools and some practice make a huge difference. A sharp ripsaw cuts 3-4 times as fast as a dull one, so we're talking the difference between 5 minutes for a long rip with a sharp saw vs. 20 minutes with a dull one. For 3/4" stock, you can expect 30-60 seconds per foot, depending on the wood. Again, in small quantities, this is work you can accomplish easily; lack of power tools shouldn't be a hindrance.

[Jim Koepke]

If you can ship your electric tools down under, could you just change out the motors with ones made to run on the local power company's voltage/frequency?

jtk

[Robert Rozaieski]

The other day I was using my table saw to rip out a 2 1/2" x 3/4" section out of 6 foot bed rails thinking to myself "how could I possibly do to this using hand tools?" I think this conversation is making me realize that foregoing power tools for the types and size of items I want to make, will not be practical. To be clear, my deliberations are economically driven, not because I want to be pure neanderthal for idealogical reasons.

In 3/4" thick stock, that cut could have pretty easily been done with a rip hand saw and cleaned up with a jointer plane in a few minutes. But that doesn't mean you want to do it that way. Ripping hardwood is work, no doubt about it.

There are a lot of times I wish I had a band saw.

I had to make several 8' long rips in 12/4 walnut recently and have ripped a lot of 12/4 in other species and even some stock over 12/4. All I have to do so is a 5½ point rip saw. It's really not the right saw for stock that thick. I'm not sure that the right kind of hand saw for stock that thick even exists today.

For boards like that, and for resawing, I'd like to have a bandsaw. For 6/4 and thinner, sharp hand saws work just fine.

[David Weaver]

Phillip - I'm going in your direction, but by choice. I will probably keep a router around just in case I need to build something quickly on the mrs. demands.

My hybrid TS is out the door next week with some craigslist luck.

What I won't ever ditch is having a good bandsaw around. It's too useful, and the one thing I have zero interest in doing by hand is hand sawing stock that's 4" thick or resawing hardwood by hand.

A good bandsaw with a decent fence will allow you to do your rips accurately, just run a smoothing plane or something up the edge to clean out the blade marks, it's very quick. Won't take much room or throw short stock in your face, either.

You might decide to keep a lunchbox planer, too, I can see the usefulness of that if you don't like thicknessing hardwoods with hand planes. I have one, too. I haven't gotten it out in 2 years, but I'll keep it just in case i need it. (admittedly, I have mooched some time off of a friend's spiral headed dc580 planer - but not too often - and that makes me want to use my lunchbox even less).

[Charlie Stone]

+1 with Jim. Just swap the motors

[Randall Houghton]

Phillip
My best advise would be for you to post this question on the Australia Woodwork Forums board. Lot of good information and several of your fellow Canadians that have already made the same move your making are members as well.
Regards
Randy

[Phillip Ngan]

My bad for not being clearer. The bed rails I was working with were 5" x 1.5" in section (x 6 ft), and I ripped out a 2.5" x 3/4" rabbet out of it using the tablesaw. I was wondering how I would do that with hand tools.

@Jeremy - thanks for pointing out the #78 rabbet plane. It's not one I've paid much attention to, but you bring up the interesting point that it can be used to hog material. In fact, the "hogging" tools are the ones that I think I need to pay attention to. This includes a scrub plane. These coarse hand tools are precisely the ones I've never needed when I have access to power tools. What are the classic "hogging" hand tools, that I could investigate further?

@Jim/Charlie/Randall - I've actually been on the Aussie forums, and the general consensus is that I'd be better off replacing the whole machine. Induction/synchronous motors will over heat because of the lower frequency (50Hz) even though I can use a step down transformer to get the voltage correct. Also, the motors on these machines have a NEMA-56 frame, and these are hard to come by in metric countries. And rewinding the motors is expensive.

@David - I think it was on the general forum that there was a recent thread where many people were moth-balling or getting rid of their table saws - mainly for safety reasons. And doing rips with a plunge saw/bandsaw combination.

@Steve - good idea to practice some hand sawing on softer lumber. I recently bought a Disston D8 5 1/2 TPI in anticpation for my transition. I'm guessing that I'm pretty sloppy at the moment. Your point about sharp saws makes me think I should stock up on triangular files.

You guys are great.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Phillip,

As you already know, we have 240v 50Hz mains here. Sometimes you can get by with smaller tools using a 240/110 transformer, probably not the bigger stuff.

The cost of freighting your power tools would be a factor in deciding the best approach. If it was me, I would sell the Candian power tools, in Canada, and buy new ones in Australia. (Or use the cash to buy up on hand tools. )

http://www.woodworkforums.com is a good place to ask your questions on Australian tool suppliers.

Regards
Ray

[Steve Branam]

My bad for not being clearer. The bed rails I was working with were 5" x 1.5" in section (x 6 ft), and I ripped out a 2.5" x 3/4" rabbet out of it using the tablesaw. I was wondering how I would do that with hand tools.

Ah, in that case, a plow plane (any of several wooden or metal types) or a rabbet plane would do it. A simple wooden rabbet of 3/4" or 1" would be ideal, especially with a skewed iron. Even a simple chisel: hog out long chunks roughly with bevel down, then go back over it with bevel up and pare it cleanly. You could also rip shoulder cuts most of the way (use a finer rip backsaw for that, since it's more of a precision cut), then clean it up with chisel, or one of plow, rabbet, or shoulder plane.

Given a really wide rabbet like this, you could plow a groove up against the shoulder line (again, with chisel, plow, rabbet, or shoulder plane), then take the rest down with a bench plane. Or use the bench plane first on the outer portion of the wide rabbet, then do the last inner portion with one of the others. Always go to the tool that takes the biggest bite first, then go to the finer tools.


I recently bought a Disston D8 5 1/2 TPI in anticpation for my transition. I'm guessing that I'm pretty sloppy at the moment.

That's the beauty of it, you don't have to worry about how sloppy you are if you follow up the saw with planes. They work as an integrated set to give fine results. I'll be so bold as to say saws are useless without planes, and planes are useless without saws. But together they work magic!

The only thing any sloppiness means is that you have to plan for how much margin to allow in your rough cutting. Your table saw ripping along a fence can hold to a line very closely, so you probably only allow a 1/32" margin. You and your handsaw just need a bigger margin until your skills improve.

If you really have a sloppy cut, you might need to do some heavy planing with a jack first, using a cambered iron set for a heavy cut, before finishing off with a jointer. But as long as your cut stayed on the waste side, it can always be cleaned up and brought down to the line precisely. Believe me, I've had to deal with some pretty ugly ones as I developed my skills!

[Jason Chestnut]

What are the classic "hogging" hand tools, that I could investigate further?


I don't post much on here (ok, never post on here), but I figured I could be of some assistance with this one. Check out Coarse, Medium, and Fine with Chris Schwarz (available at LN and others: http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1320). I've not actually seen this video, but it gets good press, and I really like Chris's style. He's easy to listen to and a good teacher. The video goes into exactly what you're asking -- he divides work into three stages, coarse (your hogging operations), medium, and fine and gives examples of tools for doing each. Any of Roy Underhill's books are a good place to go for how to handle these things, too.

Good luck with the move. That's a big one, and probably exciting for a lot of reasons. At least you speak 85% of the same language. :D

ETA: And to get you started, rough planes include a jack or fore plane (many people, myself included don't see much need in most circumstances for a scrub, if you have a good jack with an open mouth and a properly cambered iron), the aforementioned 78/rabbet planes, drawknives, etc.

[Steve Branam]

Here's a link to Schwarz's original "Coarse Medium and Fine" article: http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/content/binary/2-CoarseMediumFine.pdf.

I have that DVD, plus his newer "Handplane Basics" DVD. Once you've read the article, I think the newer DVD is the better of the two if you have to choose. I also have his "Handplane Essentials" book (yeah, I'm a big fan of his stuff!). This is a collection of his articles on planes. But start with the article above and the "Handplane Basics" DVD and you'll be well on the way.

The main hogging tool, for fast material removal, is the jack plane with a cambered iron. That can handle as little as a thirty-second to as much as a quarter inch quickly. It's less aggressive than a scrub for those times when the scrub is overkill, leaving a surface that cleans up quickly with a jointer. The scrub can still handle that range (and more, do you need to take off half an inch?), but because of its narrower iron, it takes more passes when removing smaller thicknesses. The jack is a nice compromise of wide, deep shavings. The scrub takes narrow, deep shavings.

But getting the concept of coarse, medium, and fine down is the most important thing, then you can look at each of your tools in that light. Then you start thinking in terms of setting up or using a tool for a coarse operation vs. a fine operation. Sometimes that's as simple as advancing a rabbet plane iron a bit for coarse removal, then backing it off for the final fine passes.