Sawstop system

[Rick Potter]

I am just curious. Does any other manufacturer use Sawstops safety system? I know the inventor tried to sell it before manufacturing his own saws, but did anybody sign up?

Is it still available for other brands to buy, or did he just stop offering it after coming out with his own machine?

Is it true that Sawstop is the number one selling cabinet saw?

I was thinking about that Ryobi lawsuit, and wondering what companies could do to protect themselves now that precedent is set, if they could not buy the technology. It would be a very expensive world, if, after a few more lawsuits, other companies decided to drop table saws, leaving only one brand on the market.

Please, I don't want to start another love/hate Sawstop thread, but I am curious about the questions.

Rick Potter

[Brian Kent]

It is the only one that uses that technology, and I do not know if it is offered to other companies. I would be surprised if it was the number one selling saw, especially if compared to all Delta table saws or all Grizzlys and not just a single model. I am interested in your question and will watch for responses.

Brian

[Andrew Arndts]

A friend that works at a Woodcraft tells me that the reason Saw Stop came to be was that the majority of other saw manufactures that the inventor took the idea to turned him down. so if you want a Saw Stop safety, you have to buy a Saw Stop.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

There is another company who is working on a similar system but it works in conjunction with the blade guard. They haven't to my knowledge put it on the market yet.

[John Coloccia]

I am just curious. Does any other manufacturer use Sawstops safety system? I know the inventor tried to sell it before manufacturing his own saws, but did anybody sign up?

Is it still available for other brands to buy, or did he just stop offering it after coming out with his own machine?

Is it true that Sawstop is the number one selling cabinet saw?

I was thinking about that Ryobi lawsuit, and wondering what companies could do to protect themselves now that precedent is set, if they could not buy the technology. It would be a very expensive world, if, after a few more lawsuits, other companies decided to drop table saws, leaving only one brand on the market.

Please, I don't want to start another love/hate Sawstop thread, but I am curious about the questions.

Rick Potter

eventually, someone will find a way to hurt themselves with a SawStop, and they'll start getting sued too. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if someday I get sued for owning a SawStop, thereby contributing and supporting a dangerous tool. What device will protect a company from insanity?

This whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially because of the players involved.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

All electronics circuits can fail. Eventually a SawStop will fail and someone will get injured and there will be a lawsuit. It's not a matter of "if"..it is a matter of "when".

A lot more thought, time and money has been put into Nasa's electronics ...redundant circuits etc and they stil have had failures. It's electronics for goodness sakes.

I'm retiring in February from a career in electronics because the stuff....even digital need calibration and repair.

[Brian D Anderson]

I posted this a while ago but . . .

My best friend from high school worked for a small R&D design firm in Silicon Valley a few years ago. He told me that a large number of table saw manufacturers got together and contracted his company to design a similar blade braking technology. They had to do it so as not to infringe on the Sawstop patent. He said they designed a system that stopped the blade quicker and also didn't destroy it. "Recharging" the system was not going to be too expensive either.

He said they finished the design and delivered it with the understanding the the companies could use it as a base design and modify it on their own. His belief is that the companies probably would never put it into production. He thought they were just "covering" themselves should they ever be required to implement a braking system. I asked him which companies, and he said "you name it". Basically all of them.

(Keep in mind, I learned this all second hand through my friend, who didn't actually work on the design . . . others did in his company)

As someone else said in a similar thread . . . if the Sawstop starts dominating the market, the other manufacturers would logically attempt to compete with their own technology.

-Brian

[Will Overton]

I would also expect that there will be some failures. I would also expect that being an attorney that Mr. Gass insured for this. There are many law suits because air-bags failed to deploy. I doubt the car manufacturers were surprised.

Eventually there will be other systems that work as well, or better. But whether you like Mr. Gass or not, those new systems will come out because he showed that it can be done, and that lots of folks (not necessarily most) are interested in buying that extra degree of safety.

[alex grams]

Rick,
It is pretty well documented that initially Steve Gass (Sawstop Founder) went to most of the major tool manufacturers and offered his feature to them, but he wanted a fairly substantial royalty (85) on table saws sold with his system. This led to him basically making his own tablesaw with the safety mechanism in it.

There is a better article with more details, but the best I could find at the moment is this article (http://toolmonger.com/category/manufacturers/sawstop/)

[Rick Prosser]

When I purchased my Sawstop, they said it was their biggest seller. Don't know if they meant cabinet saws or all table saws...and this was only one vendor. Don't know if this is/was true anywhere else.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I was told the same at the local woodcraft.

At least in its price range (Powermatic, Delta Unisaw, some of the General International saws, etc), I'd be willing to be Sawstop has the biggest market share.

[Izzy Camire]

I was told at the local Woodcraft that they sell about 8 Sawstop to all other saws.

[Jerome Hanby]

It makes sense that Sawstop would be a big seller. I bet there are a bunch of spouses that would draw in the reigns on most tool purchases that would loosen the purse strings for a Sawstop. I think Sawstop even used that fact in their advertisements that appear in Wood Magazine...

Plus it appears to be an excellent saw. I've never heard anyone complain about the fence or the way it cuts.

[Don Bullock]

... I bet there are a bunch of spouses that would draw in the reigns on most tool purchases that would loosen the purse strings for a Sawstop. ...

That's why I have one. It's an excellent saw.:D

[michael case]

For me, the most astonishing thing about Sawstop is not the brake mechanism, but the fact that Steve Gass built such a successful company from the ground up. He did this after he got told to take a hike with his patent by all the haughty manufacturers, probably with a laughing "What are you going to do start your own saw company." Well he did. He started by making a saw superior in all regards that ALSO had the braking system. He made his company fly in great part by using an old method long forgotten by many American companies - Make a quality product and it will sell itself.

[Van Huskey]

Rick,
but he wanted a fairly substantial royalty (85) on table saws sold with his system.


From reading replies from some of the manufacturers to Mr. Gass (they became puplic in the Ryobi case) it was as much or more the fact Mr. Gass' offer required an indemnification of liability as his royalty desires. Good business on his part, probably an absolute no-go from the companies standpoint for a device with zero track record.


Not surprised about Brian's post and my guess is that we will not see "Brakes" on anything other than a SS until they are mandated by legislation or required for UL listing. Consider riving knives, although not extremely cheap to include they are still cheaper than any brake system is likely to be and even then most riving knives didn't show up until they were mandated for UL listing. My guess is also that a much more elegant system is possible compared to the SS technology, no question it works and well but if the other manufacturers are forced into the brake business I think the SS tech will appear pretty "Rube Goldbergesque" in very short order. I also think when the Ryobi case finishes the appelatte process and actually becomes precedent in its jurisdiction from a legal/business viewpoint it will be a tempest in a teacup.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

He made his company fly in great part by using an old method long forgotten by many American companies - Make a quality product and it will sell itself.

Well said.

For me, I'm glad I bought one, and hope to never use that brake feature.

[Noah Katz]

...he wanted a fairly substantial royalty (85) on table saws sold with his system.

85%?

Of what?

[Van Huskey]

85%?

Of what?


The "reported" number was 8% of the wholesale cost of each saw.

[Will Overton]

For me, I'm glad I bought one, and hope to never use that brake feature.

That's exactly how I feel.

[Noah Katz]

The "reported" number was 8% of the wholesale cost of each saw.

ah, that makes more sense

[Van Huskey]

ah, that makes more sense

Yeah I think he just missed the shift key since 5+shift=%

[Don Bullock]

Well said.

For me, I'm glad I bought one, and hope to never use that brake feature.


That's exactly how I feel.

+1 -- I find that having the brake is a constant reminder that I need to check every cut for safety before I turn on the saw. I didn't buy an extra cartridge because I figured if I ever triggered the brake I wouldn't be "ready" to use the saw until I was able to buy a new one.

[Jon van der Linden]

The "reported" number was 8% of the wholesale cost of each saw.

A "normal" rate would be around 2-2.5% of the product itself, not the device it's used on. In essence more than 20x what's standard in industry. Not a surprise no one went for it, especially with a liability waiver.

Personally I've seen kickback and other cases of things catching in the blade as the largest source of danger and injury. When you compare a good sliding table saw to a standard cabinet saw design, the improvements in accuracy and safety are enormous. They're usually a bit more expensive than a Sawstop, even at the low end, but the features are considerably better.

The other problem is a simple one. If you're getting your hands anywhere close to the blade, your workpiece is too small for that kind of tool. The proper solution would be to make a jig or use something else. Knowledge and common sense will keep you safer than anything else.