May be hope for "Made in the USA"

[Dave Lehnert]

I was at a woodworking show today talking to a well know tool manufacture. Said that the cost of labor overseas has gone way up because workers are staying on the farms to work rather than come to the city to work in the factories. They are making more money that way now. The cost of shipping is going up. Also everything has a 3 month lead time. If a defect is found in the manufacturing here after it has shipped to the US , all that shipment is wasted as well there may be 3 months supply in the system with the same defect. They are in the thought process now of moving manufacturing back here to the states.

Thought that was interesting.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A friendly reminder......political statements and comments are not allowed per the TOSs.

[Doug Mason]

From an economic viewpoint (my own:)), I tend to think that a large part of the "basic" manufacturing is lost to the US for some time--at least until manufacturing wages in the US reach an equilibrium with wages in third world counties (or the cost of transport tilts the cost factor). In a free trade system as we practice it, Capital will flow to where the means of production is cheapest.

Now if you are part of the 40% of the US population working in the well-paid service sector, you'll do fairly well; but if you fall outside this, watch out--as your standard of living will continue to decline.

[Stephen Cherry]

A friendly reminder......political statements and comments are not allowed per the TOSs.

I've refrained from most of what I have to say about this topic for just this reason.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Stephen,

I appreciate your display of self discipline.

Believe it or not....most Mods don't enjoy either having to edit or delete comments or taking the verbal abuse that often follows those actions.

It's hard to separate economics and politics.

These type of theads seldom have any real use and more often than not get moved to the Moderator's Forum because the amount of work needed to keep them within the guidelines established by the TOSs far outweighs the value of the thread itself.

[John Coloccia]

Well said. I'm voting for Ken on Tuesday.

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:p

[Neil Brooks]

I like pie.

Actually, I LOVE pie.

Cherry pie, with vanilla ice cream on top.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Strawberry-rhubarb pie....warmed...with French Vanilla ice cream on top please......

[Rod Sheridan]

Dave, nothing would make me happier than to see manufacturing jobs come back to North America.

Unfortunately North Americans don't seem to have a long term view, we're more concerned with the short term low price than the long term effects of collapsing NA industry.

Once we're all working at the local hamburger or doughnut shop, we will no longer have any discretionary income and it won't matter where the tool is manufactured, we won't be buying it.

Regards, Rod.

[Neil Brooks]

Strawberry-rhubarb pie....warmed...with French Vanilla ice cream on top please......

Oooooh.

Well played, Sir ! :)

[Curt Harms]

I bought a made-in-USA 6" Swanson combo square from the blue borg a while ago. The little metal L-shaped thing on the end of the screw that holds the blade in place broke. I found a phone # and called. Talked to a lady who knew immediately what I was talking about and "the mail left for today but I'll send one out tomorrow." 3 days later, here it is and it now appears to be brass. What a pleasant experience. Granted it would have been nice if it didn't break in the first place but stuff does happen. The dollar being weak sucks from some angles but it does help make made-in-USA products competitive on the world market.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

@Ken
How is anything the OP had to say considered political?

[Bill Huber]

I don't see how it will ever come back, there will be no one to do it. We don't have shop classes in school any more so how is someone to learn the basics.

[Lex Boegen]

When shopping for anything (not just tools), when I compare products of similar quality, I do give consideration to the country of origin. Often though the source is unknown or all competitors source from the same country. It is a decision-making factor, but it's not the only one. That being said, if you look at my tool collection there's something from most of the continents in the world, but nothing from Antartica yet, though. ;)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

@Ken
How is anything the OP had to say considered political?

For the record, I never stated the OPs comments were political.

Beyond that, the history of these type of threads has shown that there are a lot of folks who are incapable of discussing these types of subjects without spewing political statements. These threads almost always have a short life before we just move them. They have little or no value.

[Gene Howe]

Oooooh.

Well played, Sir ! :)

+1/2.......I'll have straight vanilla on my strawberry-rhubarb pie, thank you.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

We've started to notice that in my company/industry as well. what used to be easily a 3:1 advantage for hiring in some overseas locations, IMO it is barely at 2:1 and if you factor in the additional headache and lost productivity in managing remotely, an argument could be made that it's a wash. We had a customer in who said they are moving some manufacturing jobs from Asia to the US (NC, I believe) and will actually be exporting the items BACK to China. It had gotten just too crazy trying to manage the factories overseas.

I know shipping costs had gotten crazy at one point, but I never thought about the time delay in a production/manufacturing operation if a defect or change had to be introduced.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Unfortunately North Americans don't seem to have a long term view, we're more concerned with the short term low price than the long term effects of collapsing NA industry.



Rod, do you ever watch this show called "How it's made"? They show the manufacturing process for various items, and film mostly in Canadian factories. I enjoy the program, but often find myself just aghast at how horribly inefficient the process appears to be. The voice-over will say, "Now, a worker moves the widget from this machine to that machine....", and that is the extent of the worker's job. Potentially the most easily automated processes are done manually, for no clear reason.

Likewise, which of Northfield's table saws come with riving knives? Oh, none of them do? :confused:

My point is, I'll gladly pay higher price for better quality. I won't support companies that are inefficient and refuse to innovate.

[Dave Lehnert]

Would be a boost for the area again. But nothing says they would do all the manufacturing again in Cincinnati.

[Josh Rudolph]

I don't see how it will ever come back, there will be no one to do it. We don't have shop classes in school any more so how is someone to learn the basics.

Bill,

As sad as it is that we don't have enough shop classes to teach the basics, that isn't the only way for someone to get into WW. I never took a HS shop class and now have a dedicated shop full of tools that I use regularly. I got into WW because of my college desk falling apart after being moved one time. That got me interested. Norm Abram and David Marks taught me quite a bit. Roy Underhill teaches me something every Saturday at 1030 and sometimes throughout the week when I watch him online. I attended WIA this year and it only threw gas on my woodworking fire.
I have been fortunate to have landed myself in a unique position at work. My woodworking hobby has made me the goto guy for some things we produce. I get paid to do woodworking about 25% of my time at work. If I were not spoiled by my salary, I would apply for North Bennet Street and pursue woodworking full time. I am not willing to make my family suffer for me to chase a dream.

My son and nieces will all at least be introduced to woodworking. If they want to pursue it further, I will guide and help them as far as I can take them.

My wife believes it is the lack of appreciation and dedication to one's craft to create something. We want our 'stuff' and we want it now! It is easier to go buy it rather than investing the time in building it.

Very Respectfully,
Josh

[Curt Harms]

I don't see how it will ever come back, there will be no one to do it. We don't have shop classes in school any more so how is someone to learn the basics.

I'm not sure shop classes in the usual sense would be what is required. I think the skills required will be more along the lines of CNC design and construction, both hardware and software. Robotics, operating with minimal environmental impact and greater raw material & energy efficiency, that sort of thing. Different skills required.

[Peter Quinn]

I had a slice of peach-cranberry pie this sumer that was out of this world. Tree ripened peaches, dried cranberries that absorbed the peach juice during cooking. Just a dollop of slightly sweetened fresh cream whipped soft, wow was that good. Nothing like a work of art in fruit and crust to make life great.

I am curious though where the fascination with "Made in America" comes from. I've had a few manufacturing jobs in my life, none of them have been much fun. A livable but just so wage, long hours, hard often repetitive work. Where is the glory in this? Many of these jobs just suck and I for one won't miss them. It seems like there was a very short golden period in our economic development, mainly post WWII when most of the world was in shambles and we shone in comparison, that relative prosperity could be had from blue collar manufacturing. We were the worlds factory, but not really for very long.

I grew up in a former New England thread mill town, a stones throw literally from a giant gothic victorian era mill. Good times were not had by all in that particular establishment. It was by my grandparents description just above a sweat shop with company script and wage policies meant to keep the labor force indentured. When the work went south it took decades for things to recover, but people made adjustments, things moved on, poverty lingers in pockets there to this day, and the mill left in the 1930's!

The legions of highly skilled machinists that once existed in my area have largely been replaced by large CNC equipment. Automation has claimed its share of jobs, and that is a trend not likely to be reversed. If you are not replaced by foreign competition you will be replaced by a robot and its operator. Perhaps people longing for a return to the good old days of our manufacturing glory will spark a "manufacturing-tourism" market where you pay to go and work in a Taiwanese factory on the assembly line for a week or two and get treated like one of the crew!

I'd settle for well made products of quality at a price I can afford made by workers that are not abused. Its never easy gong through growing pains, but that is the point I see our economy at. Much like puberty these changes are permanent, and possibly for the better in the long term. Rather than adopting a woe is us attitude, the present situation is a great opportunity to move toward a more mature economy based on high tech automated production, medical manufacturing, design and product development. I for one don't want another job assembling mattresses.

[Will Overton]

... to move toward a more mature economy based on high tech automated production, medical manufacturing, design and product development. .

Could that kind of economy provide jobs for everybody, or just the well educated? We will always have millions of people who will not qualify for high tech jobs.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Here's some food for thought from the news last week. Made oversees, Assembled in the US. The news article on TV was along the lines of the high increase in labor costs overseas (as many have mentioned) but the costs of materials are still very low. Some manufacturers are having the pieces rough fab'ed. molded, or forged overseas and shipped raw to the US. According to the report, they have found it easier to pack and ship a case of the same part than one set of each (as in a ready for the self product). Then with the relatively lower cost of US labor and the increased quality control provided by US manufacturing, they are able to provide a "stay" on the price while increasing the quality.

I thought it was interesting.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Could that kind of economy provide jobs for everybody, or just the well educated? We will always have millions of people who will not qualify for high tech jobs.

True. One thing that I find really interesting is the use of RFID tags on products - I think this is a technology that will eventually replace cashiers at virtually all stores. When you walk into a Walmart, there's a sign at the door advising you that they're already using "Electronic Product Codes". Eventually, stores hope to be able to code each item with an RFID tag, scan all those tags simultaneously (and your credit card) as you walk out the door, and get rid of the millions employed as cashiers.

Likewise, how long until every taxi cab driver is replaced by self-driving cars? That is certainly not more than 40 years away.

That said, you can't replace (or even outsource) an electrician, plumber, mechanic, or doctor. Ultimately "that kind of economy" may not provide jobs for the uneducated - but that's a good reason to get educated. The fewer people we have doing menial or manual labor, the MORE people are available to contribute productively to society in other ways.

[Leo Graywacz]

Rod, do you ever watch this show called "How it's made"? They show the manufacturing process for various items, and film mostly in Canadian factories. I enjoy the program, but often find myself just aghast at how horribly inefficient the process appears to be. The voice-over will say, "Now, a worker moves the widget from this machine to that machine....", and that is the extent of the worker's job. Potentially the most easily automated processes are done manually, for no clear reason.

Likewise, which of Northfield's table saws come with riving knives? Oh, none of them do? :confused:

My point is, I'll gladly pay higher price for better quality. I won't support companies that are inefficient and refuse to innovate.

Well you answered your own question here. To give someone a job. They could probably automate a lot more of the operation but it would be at the cost of jobs for people who need them.

[Dave Lehnert]

"Peter Quinn"

"the present situation is a great opportunity to move toward a more mature economy based on high tech automated production, medical manufacturing, design and product development. I for one don't want another job assembling mattresses."

Funny you speak of "More medical manufacturing" That is EXACTLY what this company was doing, Also making a medical device in one division before going over seas.

[Dan Karachio]

I'm a "knowledge worker," but if we had industry here, I would love to be a part of it. I was excited when it seemed there was serious talk about new energy production technology, but we seem to be standing still while the Chinese and Euros are going for it. Seems to me all those laid off Detroit workers, engineers and logistics people could do a lot of good work for us.

[John Coloccia]

True. One thing that I find really interesting is the use of RFID tags on products - I think this is a technology that will eventually replace cashiers at virtually all stores. When you walk into a Walmart, there's a sign at the door advising you that they're already using "Electronic Product Codes". Eventually, stores hope to be able to code each item with an RFID tag, scan all those tags simultaneously (and your credit card) as you walk out the door, and get rid of the millions employed as cashiers.

Likewise, how long until every taxi cab driver is replaced by self-driving cars? That is certainly not more than 40 years away.

That said, you can't replace (or even outsource) an electrician, plumber, mechanic, or doctor. Ultimately "that kind of economy" may not provide jobs for the uneducated - but that's a good reason to get educated. The fewer people we have doing menial or manual labor, the MORE people are available to contribute productively to society in other ways.


Well you answered your own question here. To give someone a job. They could probably automate a lot more of the operation but it would be at the cost of jobs for people who need them.

Actually, it's usually for two reasons:

a) automated material handling/loading/unloading is a lot harder and more expensive than you might think.

b) the employee is also inspecting the part at that point. Again, this is often difficult to automate

[David Hostetler]

Not knowing much of what the Canadians have going on, all I can speak of is from the perspective of the American consumer. Of course I want the best product I can buy for my money. But having said that, I also want jobs for Americans. Particularly the regular workaday folks. I could care less about how well upper management is doing. I don't mean to say that I don't think they should do well, but I also don't think that they should do well at the expense of everyone else.

So let's say I am looking for a basic 14" band saw. and let's say I have the following choices.

Choice A is made in Taiwan, and directly imported by an American retailer, sold under their house brand for $300.00

Choice B is made in Taiwan, using the same designs, same castings, and same overall parts as Choice A, is imported and sold under a major American tool companies name, through a series of distributors and retailers for $600.00

Choice C is made in Taiwan, using the same designs, same castings, and most of the same parts, with a few upgrades that impact the niceness factor, but don't make it cut any better. Imported and sold under a premium American tool companies name, through a series of distributors and retailers for $1,500.00

Which choice would be better to make for me as the consumer?

Now add another selection in here.

Choice D is made in North America, using the Original castings, made from the same parts as the original, branded with a Chinese tool manufacturers name, and sold through a series of distributed through a series of distributors and retailers for $500.00

So which is the better buy and why?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

I fail to see where you are trying to lead this thread.

My position is at the bottom of the food chain of one of the largest corporations in the world. I am at the bottom.

But like a lot of employees I own shares of company stock. So I see this from an employee and part owner perspective.

It's purely economics....profit drives these types of decisions within a company. Just profit.

Now a lot folks will jump up and say "Profit" is a bad word. Nope it isn't. Companies either show a profit or go out of business. Companies that go out of business don't support ANY workers. In an effort to maintain profitability and expand their markets, companies moved their manufacturing to other countries or contracted to other companies in other countries to manufacture a product for sale here. It was a two fold thing...it got more profit and by making products less expensive, it expanded their market. More American consumers could afford their products.

When it becomes more expensive to import those products, then companies will consider moving the manufacturing back to the US.

If you look at the cost of tools 30 years ago and adjusting for inflation look at the cost of tools today, we pay less for a better tool.

Some people will try to sell the lack of quality today in Asian made products as a big deal. I say " hogwash!". It's been decades since Made In America guaranteed a good quality purchase every time. Decades.....at least 3 or more.

We do suffer from less QC for the lower price but as long as the company stands behind the product...that's the price you pay for paying less....Get over it. Give their customer service a chance.

You can still buy Northfield quality....IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT. I can't. If I was a professional shop...maybe...in my home hobby shop....I can't.

[Keith Outten]

Henry Ford understood that in order to sell his cars he had to have customers who could afford them. His very first customers were his employees because he paid them appropriately.

Companies whose market is here in the United States would be wise to remember that people who are unemployed or those whose income is very low may not be purchasing their products even if they are made less expensively over seas. The root of the problem we have before us right now is based on unemployment which in turn breeds a loss of confidence in those who are still employed and they will often reduce their spending as a conservative measure.

There is another issue that involves a growing sense of discontent with overpaid executives. How many cars must General Motors sell each year just to pay the salary and benefits of their CEO? This outrageous inequity has grown beyond reason, in fact it is immoral in my opinion. If there is a savior on the American horizon it may very well be small business. If working class people will embrace a policy of only doing business in their home town with companies that employ their neighbors and embrace a policy of reasonable compensation the American Dream may very well be reinvented.

My View From the Bottom :)
.

[Dave Wagner]

A guy north of us near Buffalo,NY started this shop (I have no association, just saw it on TV News). It's a start! Only carries Made in America products.

https://www.saveourcountryfirst.com/Default.aspx

[Conrad Fiore]

I’m with Keith on this one.
Here is an example of profit. There was a Letter to the Editor in our regional paper yesterday from a woman that recently visited the Statue of Liberty. At the end of her tour she went to the gift shop to purchase a postcard of the Statue. She turned the card over and noticed it was marked “Printed in China”. She didn’t buy it. Now, really, a post card of the Statue of Liberty, you mean to tell me we can’t print a lousy post card in the USA and still make a profit selling it? Something is very wrong here.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

As stated earlier, factory jobs were mostly crappy and bad for your health. I believe that my folks and their siblings and friends, became very ill early in their lives because of occupational exposure to nasty processes. Cancer and joint problems were the most prevalent. However, with more awareness and technology, these exposures risks should be reduced for today's workforce. But that wasn't the case in the "good ol' manufacturing days" in the US.

Then there's the repetitious nature of manufacturing jobs that makes life feel like it's slipping away. With little chance of upward mobility in manufacturing jobs, it clashes with the quest for filling our lives with materialistic stuff.

I also don't see folk's today having the wherewithal to do physical work, especially skilled work. This is especially evident with the under 30 crowd. I think the financial plan for many of them is to inherit their parent's estate. The lack of shop classes in high school is one example. But the lack of doing any physical chores like cutting the grass and raking the leaves around the house shows a disturbing mindset.

However, don't get me wrong, the balance of manufacturing to non-manufacturing jobs in the US is certainly out of kilter. There needs to be a job for every skill type, and these jobs should support an acceptable lifestyle.

My point is that the resolution to restore this balance appears complex. Perhaps we must first go thru more economic pain before manufacturing jobs are appealing again.

-Jeff :)

[Peter Quinn]

Could that kind of economy provide jobs for everybody, or just the well educated? We will always have millions of people who will not qualify for high tech jobs.

Well, the core and best jobs will belong to the well educated, but there is always a need for support positions innthese industries. The manufacturing? If it's happening here, it's being done by machine mostly with a few skilled operators and engineers running things, or if hand labor intensive, it's being donenwhere hands are cheap.

My line of thinking is both harsh and direct. Get trained or good luck! It behoves the worker to seek the highest level of education possible. A good job is not an entitlement, it's something you work for, plan for and train for. Pso do a lot of people getmleft behind? That is up to them.

[Leo Graywacz]

Actually, it's usually for two reasons:

a) automated material handling/loading/unloading is a lot harder and more expensive than you might think.

b) the employee is also inspecting the part at that point. Again, this is often difficult to automate

c) the human can do an amazing amount of different tasks when called upon. The machine usually has one function that it can do.

[Bill Huber]

Bill,

As sad as it is that we don't have enough shop classes to teach the basics, that isn't the only way for someone to get into WW. I never took a HS shop class and now have a dedicated shop full of tools that I use regularly. I got into WW because of my college desk falling apart after being moved one time. That got me interested. Norm Abram and David Marks taught me quite a bit. Roy Underhill teaches me something every Saturday at 1030 and sometimes throughout the week when I watch him online. I attended WIA this year and it only threw gas on my woodworking fire.
I have been fortunate to have landed myself in a unique position at work. My woodworking hobby has made me the goto guy for some things we produce. I get paid to do woodworking about 25% of my time at work. If I were not spoiled by my salary, I would apply for North Bennet Street and pursue woodworking full time. I am not willing to make my family suffer for me to chase a dream.

My son and nieces will all at least be introduced to woodworking. If they want to pursue it further, I will guide and help them as far as I can take them.

My wife believes it is the lack of appreciation and dedication to one's craft to create something. We want our 'stuff' and we want it now! It is easier to go buy it rather than investing the time in building it.

Very Respectfully,
Josh

I agree that shop classes are not the only answer but I also thing they help a lot. Now days if you are not a really good student and don't go to collage you are somewhat left out in the cold.

What I see is that student that is not that great at academics can see something else and feel good about themselves. I am not just talking wood shop, I am talking about all shop classes, wood, metal, electric and general.

If a person is never exposed to something other then books then they may miss what they really like to do and are good at.

[Bill Huber]

I'm not sure shop classes in the usual sense would be what is required. I think the skills required will be more along the lines of CNC design and construction, both hardware and software. Robotics, operating with minimal environmental impact and greater raw material & energy efficiency, that sort of thing. Different skills required.

Who will make the CNC machines, who will make the robots?

[Leo Graywacz]

All hail the CNC machine

Making everything automated is going to diminish the skill levels of everyone. No one will be able to do anything by hand anymore. I see it with the newer generations already.

You do that by hand? Why don't you just get a machine to do that?

[glenn bradley]

Well said. I'm voting for Ken on Tuesday.

Me to. Doing Mod duty on other forums, I can say it is a fairly thankless (and hidden but sometimes tedious) job. thanks to Ken (who I will also be voting for Tuesday) and all the Mods for their efforts.

Oh, and back to the subject of the OP, that sounds great and I would love to see a lot of people I know (and those I don't) gainfully employed here at home.

[John Neel]

Earlier posters in this thread lamented the passing of shop classes. Due to my families moving to another school district and different schedules in the two districts, I took shop classes twice. The first district had 1/2 year wood and 1/2 year metal shop. The metal shop class was wondrous, the wood shop was abysmal. In the second district there was only wood shop and it was very good.

Like any other subject in schools, students can have bad experiences that turn them away from the subject as well as excite them.

[Ruhi Arslan]

I was at a woodworking show today talking to a well know tool manufacture. Said that the cost of labor overseas has gone way up because workers are staying on the farms to work rather than come to the city to work in the factories. They are making more money that way now.
[...]
Thought that was interesting.

(Disclaimer: I have not read the remainder of the thread.)

He or she (the well know manufacturer) should stick to selling tools at trade shows instead of making things up in a subject matter much more complicated than a 399 piece socket set.

As of last year, "labor cost per unit of production" rate is one of the lowest in the US not because other than US manufacturing force went back to the farms but because US currency devalued. As much as I try to ignore any statement suggesting that the unions and the high cost of labor drove the manufacturing abroad, I felt the need to suggest if anyone cares to know labor cost rate in production in US manufacturing, please visit the US Department of Labor stats to get some real numbers to refer to, rather than a sales person at a trade show originated rumor which most likely dribbled form a "fair and accurate" fabrication outlet.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ruhi,

No offense but I really don't think it's quite as simple as a devalued dollar.

The cause of manufacturing moving overseas is complex but the cost of labor is one of the reasons.....the expense of operating within environmental laws is another......taxes at the local, state and federal level are others....it's really complex.

But sir, you are wrong if you believe that the cost of labor didn't have a factor in it.

When the cost to import products becomes less profitable than manufacturing them locally, they will manufacture them locally. The object of a business is to make a profit for the shareholders.

To another point....it is obscene what upper level management in large corporations make in comparison to other workers within that same company.

The issues that caused this are complex and nobody wants to accept their portion of the responsibility for it happening....nobody...labor.....politicians....sha reholders.......corporate executives.......nobody......point the fingers at the other person.....point out the other guys portion of the fault while ignoring and/or defending their actions that are also to blame. It's a matter of selfishness and greed on the part companies, labor and shareholders........ they are all involved.....all not willing accept their portion of the responsibilty for what has and will happen.....just point fingers......

It's a complex issue.....not simple

[Kent A Bathurst]

Well said. I'm voting for Ken on Tuesday

"I'm with you fellers".

[Ken Fitzgerald]

"I'm with you fellers".

Just for the record and before the election Kent....I'm not a Spartans fan....:p

[Roger Jensen]

I think everyone assumes more automation/robots the better. I was watching a show on chinese manufacturing and he was asked why he didn't use more robots. His answer was you can rewrite a procedure and "reprogram" you assmembly line workers over night, while the same change for a robot would take days/weeks.

Of course, their suppressed wages have a lot to do with the low return-on-investment for any type of automation.

rj

[Ruhi Arslan]

Ruhi,

[...]
The cause of manufacturing moving overseas is complex but the cost of labor is one of the reasons.....the expense of operating within environmental laws is another......taxes at the local, state and federal level are others....it's really complex.
[...] just point fingers......

It's a complex issue.....not simple
I agree and stated so as being complex. I just wanted to bring a point out the fact that the labor is NOT the root cause of the manufacturers fleeing overseas or to the South of the Border. In fact I take it personally, been brought up in a blue collar family and although not being a blue collar still making my living by working rather than Wall Street doing well, when I hear over and over again, cost of labor is the sole reason of driving the jobs abroad being parroted with no evidence to support it.
I would have much more to say but this is not the platform for it. Stop blaming the "labor", we ARE the "labor". ;)

[Chuck Wintle]

A return of manufacturing to the US will result in higher prices for most machines so I think the lower priced equipment will continue to be made in asia. Its all economics with the lower price winning over patriotism most every time. Maybe some high end machines can be made here because buyers are willing to pay a littler extra?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ruhi,

I am the oldest of 6 kids. I began working as a roughneck for my driller Dad on the floor of an oil rig at age 15 in 1964 and went to HS days. I know what blue collar is. I spent a summer where all I and 3 other guys did was work for a contractor. He contracted with farmers and we hauled hay all summer from the field to the barn...stacked in the barn, I might add. Christmas Eve of 1966 I spent the night working on the floor of a rig...all night in the freezing rain....we would stop every 15 minutes....go into the dog house.....take a warm pair of cotton work gloves off the stove....put the current cold wet pair on the stove and back into the freezing rain. I promised myself....there had to be a better way to make a living. My younger brother...same scenario....Our Dad was a tough man....fair but tough. My brother and I could make as much as Dad could working beside him. It was not legal to work there until age 16 but Dad kept a watchful eye out for us from safety standpoint and both us started working for him at age 15 and went to HS days. I understand blue collar.

As a very young child I drove a horse drawn wagon with "bank boards" on it while 3 of my uncles and my grandfather hand picked and shucked corn and threw it into the wagon. Later as a teen I drove tractors and picked corn and drove filled wagons to the barn.

I graduated from HS in '67, got into a heated argument with my Dad. Quit the rigs..worked as a draftsman...labored in glass factory, steel mill, army ammunition plant and in a furniture factory until I got drafted in '68.

and...I found a way out. So did my brother when around age 40 he graduated from college with his engineering degree....and one sister is a nurse practitioner....and one an administrative assistant financial counselor. Dad died on the floor of a rig.....of a heart attack....I understand blue collar.

But labor .....we ....are part of the problem.....not the sole problem but part of a much larger one.

I agree with Keith from one standpoint. I think corporate executives underestimated the effect of putting American workers out of work and the long term effect it would have on the economy. I think corporate leaders believe or believed that the American spirit is such, that when put in a position of being out of work they would rebound by re-educating themselves and making themselves more valuable......reinventing themselves if you may....

It really is a complex societal economics problem.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Chuck,

They are made here today. Check out Northfield tools.

My 8" Grizzly G490 cost $1300 delivered to my shop.

Want some sticker shock? Check out what an 8" Northfield jointer costs....and those are 2007 prices on that price list. You would probably have to call Northfield for current ones.

North American made? Check out General not General International. General is made with a proud Maple Leaf symbol on the side of it because it's made in Canada. General International is their product line made in Asia.

I am a hobbiest. I will give up the hobby before I can afford to pay those prices or become a neander.

How does that effect my local economy? I wouldn't have paid a local contractor $16,000+ to build an empty shell woodworking shop for me to finish if I couldn't have afforded the tools. I wouldn't have spent another $16,000 finishing that shop myself.

I have a MM-16....roughly 3 grand delivered...I have an Onieda 3HP Dust Gorilla with the metal piping from Onieda....another $2,800.....a PM3520B I bought from the closest WoodCraft in Spokane...another $3,000......

I have bought 2 Grizzly machines...a $500 sander and a recent $1300 jointer.

My shop has a GI mortiser.

You can say I didn't help the US economy to which I say "hogwash". I paid money to a US company Grizzly who has hundreds of workers in this country.

If I had to pay Northfield or General prices for tools...I wouldn't have a shop...or tools and I would not spend so much time posting at SawMillCreek.

Hold the applause at that suggestion please.:o

As I enter into retirement a year earlier than I planned, I find it comforting to know I have a fairly well outfitted shop in which to spend my retirement and everything is paid off.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Just for the record and before the election Kent....I'm not a Spartans fan....:p

Yeah, Well - Ken, Sir...

Again, I'm with you fellers. Fake field goal [on a play called "Little Giants"] to beat the hated Irish in OT. Excellent - I was glad to see a team in Spartan Stadium that came to win, not to tie. [Ouch!! 44-yr-old grudge ;)]

Fake punt [on a play called "Mousetrap"] to keep the drive alive against Northwestern and come back from 0-17 at the half. Great.

Then - a top Spartan defensive player is released from jail, on Thursday morning, after an 8-day bit for parole violation, immediately joins the tem for practice, and he PLAYS AT IOWA ON SATURDAY???

What was that play called? "Jailbreak"??? "Plead Down and Play"??? "No Ethics at 8-0"???

I'll be a Spartans fan again in a few days, but I am beyond embarrassed. Humiliated. Angry. Disgusted. Mortified. At my own team. What are we - Jimmy Johnson/Dennis Erickson/Hurricanes/Thugs-R-Us??? And the Hawks ran up about a half-hundred before halftime. Good for them. They came to play. The Spartans did not.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ah...College football.....made in America.....

emotions play such a important part of that game at that level.

...and in the game of economics....

[Keith Outten]

We all need to understand that manufacturing is the key to our ability to defend ourselves. The plants that manufactuer cars and other major appliences were converted to be part of the war machine in the past, how will we be able to produce the massive amounts of defense items if we don't have any manufacturing plants or the personell necessary to produce what we must have to survive?

I recently heard that 80% of the master machinists in America are within just a few years of retirement and there are not any replacements for them. Don't people realize that every machine, tool, cars, appliiance, etc starts with these machinists. They make the machines that make machines and everything else.
.

[Dan Friedrichs]

We all need to understand that manufacturing is the key to our ability to defend ourselves. The plants that manufactuer cars and other major appliences were converted to be part of the war machine in the past, how will we be able to produce the massive amounts of defense items if we don't have any manufacturing plants or the personell necessary to produce what we must have to survive?


Seems unlikely that any future wars will be fought with huge quantities of planes and tanks....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Keith,

And there in lies another societal part of the problem.....

Fewer US students are studying engineering....science.....more are going into medicine and dentistry but fewer in extremely skilled trades or professions like machinists...........

Machinists....engineers..etc....requires a certain IQ and a level of education and understanding that requires hard work to attain. There are fewer people in this country who want to work that hard. Those who are capable and willing, elect to work at other professions because they pay more.

Beyond that...those type of skilled workers/professionals are not appreciated or respected as much.

Instead we pay an obscene amount of money to people with an MBA at best. Sorry... IMHO...an MBA is not a difficult degree to get. Try a engineering degree.....or medicine....or dentistry...or nursing.....pharmacy.....machinists.....much more difficult degrees to attain..... IMHO

There is another side of this too.

There is no longer a commitment between employees and employer as there have been in the past. One of the Mods here, Clabo, correct me if I'm wrong, was trained in a machinist program by the same large corporation which employs me. There was time when that was a prevalent type of action. Somebody came to work for a company. Once that employee had a proven performance record, the company might take it upon itself to pay to train that person for a specific skilled trade/profession such as machinist.

Those days are gone. Today our selfish greedy attitudes has produced the ladder climber. The employee will come to work and a short time later sell themselves to the highest bidder...a competitor, quite possibly. So it's either up the ladder or to another company for better personal gain. At the same time, it's understandable since there is no long term commitment from management and should the need to make a wild guess by upper level management to WallStreet, that same employee could get a pink slip...RIF....

Again....this is a societal economic problem. Corporate executives feel more responsiblity to meet WallStreet expectations than to employees or shareholders. Wall Street isn't known for being stable...in their performance or their attitudes. So why should CEOs want to meet that ..other than the BODs gave them a part of their salary package in the form of stock and stock options...so there is some greed and selfishness here too.

It's a societal problem...it starts at home...in the local community....and progresses through our society.

It's not simple...it's quite complex. I wish I could see the resolution....

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, do you ever watch this show called "How it's made"? They show the manufacturing process for various items, and film mostly in Canadian factories. I enjoy the program, but often find myself just aghast at how horribly inefficient the process appears to be. The voice-over will say, "Now, a worker moves the widget from this machine to that machine....", and that is the extent of the worker's job. Potentially the most easily automated processes are done manually, for no clear reason.

Likewise, which of Northfield's table saws come with riving knives? Oh, none of them do? :confused:

My point is, I'll gladly pay higher price for better quality. I won't support companies that are inefficient and refuse to innovate.

I'm in partial agreement with you Dan, innovation is the key to future success.

The flip side of the coin however is that to have a wage in NA that you can live on, pay good amounts of tax and send your kids to post secondary education is a lot higher than what is paid in some other countries.

So if you had a table saw from one company that cost $1,500 and a General that cost $2,500 would you be willing to spend the extra $1,000 to keep NA jobs and industry?

Regards, Rod.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

There is also some small changes going on within some large corporations today too.

It is estimated that 40% of my coworkers in my regional work area will be retiring in the next 5 years. Our regional management has proatively started an "intern" program where we are hiring young people in college and just getting out of college and they are being paid to spend a year or more working with skilled experienced field engineers. They understand that if they have a good performance record when one of us retires, they could be offered the job as a replacement but...it could be anywhere within the area...in my case the Pacific Northwest.

So a young kid in Portland for example might be working one week in Spokane...the next in Portland...the next week in Billings, MT...the next in Seattle....a couple weeks in Fairbanks...and go through this for a year....and be offered my job in Lewiston, ID when I retire next spring.

Some corporations are looking a head at the long term.

I have not looked for a job in 34 years. I worked for a subsidiary of one large corporaton for 10 years. I draw a small pension from them. They sold us to one of the largest global corporations. That was 24 years ago. I will retire from them Feb. 1st. I have survived at least 6 RIFs in the last 18 years. We were cutting back long before other companies were and in fact, our competition used that against us until they had to do the same thing.

Now the company is planning ahead. They can afford to do so and cannot afford not to do so. They can afford to do so because we have been running lean for over a decade. They cannot afford not to hire and allow people to work and get experience with those of us who are...because that would cost them Millions if not Billions of dollars in sales in the future.

Some corporations are planning ahead.

[Rick Markham]

We all need to understand that manufacturing is the key to our ability to defend ourselves. The plants that manufactuer cars and other major appliences were converted to be part of the war machine in the past, how will we be able to produce the massive amounts of defense items if we don't have any manufacturing plants or the personell necessary to produce what we must have to survive?

I recently heard that 80% of the master machinists in America are within just a few years of retirement and there are not any replacements for them. Don't people realize that every machine, tool, cars, appliiance, etc starts with these machinists. They make the machines that make machines and everything else.
.

Keith, that's the most important part of this equation. I will abstain from the the politcal aspect. Basic military (ammunition manufacturing has largely been outsourced) 80% of small arms ammo comes from European sources. I grew up near Sunflower Army ammo plant as a kid in Kansas, it employed many many civilians, now it is wasted space.

I had a best friend who's father ran a machine shop, One that was almost entirely manual, all the machinists were highly skilled accomplished machinists. They were a dying breed in the early 90's.

At some point, there will be no master machinists to teach a new generation. Where will we be then?

At some point, semantics aside, you have to refer to history and see the proof that military endeavors have and always will drive industry in any country. Technology and innovation since the industrial revolution has purely been driven by "the war machine" A loss of our ability to support our own, becomes a serious Achilles heel.

That aside, Hopefully one day American companies will see an economic benefit in using an American work force, and hopefully one day us American consumers will see a benefit in paying some more money and supporting a neighbor/ fellow American. Until that point jobs will continue to head over to "more economical" manufacturing, and our dollars will follow with it. I hate to say it, but China has largely figured out how to beat us at the capitalist game, they have the work force (literally) "hungry" enough to work at slave labor wages. It's sad to say the least.

[Dwain Lambrigger]

I don't see how it will ever come back, there will be no one to do it. We don't have shop classes in school any more so how is someone to learn the basics.

I disagree. If the jobs are there, people will get trained as soon as possible. China manufacturing didn't get cheap because they had a lot of trained labor that worked cheap, they had labor that they trained. I agree that I don't think it will come here, the margin in labor cost is too great. I simply don't think many Americans will work for 110 or 150% of what Asian labor is being paid.

[John Coloccia]

There's still plenty that's made in the US. Practically all of my handtools are made in the US or Canada. Some chisels and rasps/files come from Japan. Some blades, chisels and planes come from Germany and Switzerland.

Now when you get out of home and consumer tools and get into real labs and real companies, you'll find that a LOT of equipment is manufactured right here in the USA. For a lot of the equipment I've used over the years, I can pick up the phone and talk to the guy who assembled and calibrated it if I had to.

As much as I'd love to be able to buy a quality, made in the USA, drill press, I'd rather have that worker making a $50,000 piece of test equipment or something like that. Wars won't be won or lost because all our table saw trunion molds are in China. They will be won or lost if we forget how to make rockets or how to send people into space, for example. We've already completely lost our ability to go to the moon. I hate to lose craftmanship, but it would be suicide to lose basic know-how. I think we're retaining that for the most part, but there are certainly some chinks in our armor.

Hey, the Chinese, Indians and Mexicans have to make a living too. It's not their fault our companies spec out junk. If we gave them good specs, we'd get good products. SawStop is a perfect example. Top notch through and through...made in Asia to top notch specs.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I will find myself taking a stand that more than one person will find unbelievable. (Matt)

THE PROBLEM IS NOT JUST LABOR COSTS. PERIOD.

It is more stringent environmental standards...its taxes at the local, state and federal level.....higher profit demanded by Wall Street and the shareholders, .....and other issues I'm sure I don't realize.

And this is where it becomes nearly political.

If you don't believe it, look at industries in this country that have moved and stayed within the country. Companies have built new factories in states where they didn't have a historical presence. Why? Lower taxes....lower cost of labor......different environmental standards which were easier to meet.

Of course...labor is going say it's not us......environmentalists are going to say ...it's not us.......government officials are going to say ...it's not us.....

Guess who is not getting the jobs....."it's not us".....

and any time anyone of these principles create an increase in their portion of the cost of producing a product without a responsible savings or reasonable customer acceptable increase in price to offset the increased cost of production...it's an irresponsible selfish, greedy act by that participant.....labor, government, shareholders, environmentalists....they are all involved......all have acted irresponsibly......selfishly....greedily..

When it becomes less profitable to manufacture products overseas the manufacturing jobs will return.

[John Carlo]

The test score game is impacting all electives. I taught shop classes in addition to computer classes. After shop was eliminated, they turned my computer classes into research writing classes so that all students proficient on the MEAP (Michigan Standardized) test could have a second language arts class. They had already required a second LA class for those who were not proficient.
So, not just our beloved shop and drafting classes are gone. Now it is common to see students unable to take band, choir, art, gym, and even computer and tech classes.
However, we will have "No Child Left Behind"! And all kids will grow up to be doctors, lawyers, or rocket scientists. Very bored uninteresting ones at that!

[Joel Goodman]

I bought a made-in-USA 6" Swanson combo square from the blue borg a while ago. The little metal L-shaped thing on the end of the screw that holds the blade in place broke. I found a phone # and called. Talked to a lady who knew immediately what I was talking about and "the mail left for today but I'll send one out tomorrow." 3 days later, here it is and it now appears to be brass. What a pleasant experience. Granted it would have been nice if it didn't break in the first place but stuff does happen. The dollar being weak sucks from some angles but it does help make made-in-USA products competitive on the world market.


I've had that experience with Chapman who make a nice set of "gunsmith's screwdrivers", that is screwdrivers that come in a multiple thicknesses etc so they actually fit the slot exactly. They make them in the USA and shipped me a few of the setscrew that I lost, immediately and for free. Lie Nielsen of course does the same.

[Pat Barry]

I don't think they could convert any car part factory to do that either. Lets face it, kids don't have much interest in shop class anymore. Sure there are some exceptions but thats not where the kids interest is. Money is made in software these days. We better keep up in that. If there were factories coiming back, then they would train the new workers anyway and their high school training would be worthless.

[Dave Lehnert]

I don't think they could convert any car part factory to do that either. Lets face it, kids don't have much interest in shop class anymore. Sure there are some exceptions but thats not where the kids interest is. Money is made in software these days. We better keep up in that. If there were factories coiming back, then they would train the new workers anyway and their high school training would be worthless.
The kids may not be interested in it because they had no exposure to it?

Would I be doing woodworking now if I did not have high school wood shop? I can't answer that.

[Rick Markham]

Dave, I didn't take a high school shop class, and I'm into it. (I don't qualify as a kid anymore though, I'm 34) I also am interested in becoming a machinist, not for a trade, but for personal use. However, I think that exposure to shop etc, would certainly increase the interest level

[Dan Karachio]

Not the best read out there, but there is a book, "Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work" where the author (a PhD who chucked white collar/academic work to repair motor cycles), makes some great arguments about why we developed negative (but false) attitudes about manual work, how white collar work can be as demeaning as the most oppressive factory job and how manual work can in fact bring more satisfaction and independence.

http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value/dp/1594202230
Quite honestly, I never finished it. Way too much rambling and tangents (needs an editor). However, some great snippets and nuggets, especially about how and why so many managers veer away from any kind of decision making.

[Paul Johnstone]

Said that the cost of labor overseas has gone way up because workers are staying on the farms to work rather than come to the city to work in the factories.

Maybe there's a benefit to all these ethanol subsidies that are driving up food prices after all. (As farmers turn corn into ethanol, instead of food, due to governement subsidies).

That and the weakened dollar nowdays.

[Paul Johnstone]

I don't see how it will ever come back, there will be no one to do it. We don't have shop classes in school any more so how is someone to learn the basics.

If coorporations think it is beneficial to manufacture here, they will come back.

Someone had to train all those people in China how to use the machinery too. It's not a big deal.

[Dave Lehnert]

Not the best read out there, but there is a book, "Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work" where the author (a PhD who chucked white collar/academic work to repair motor cycles), makes some great arguments about why we developed negative (but false) attitudes about manual work, how white collar work can be as demeaning as the most oppressive factory job and how manual work can in fact bring more satisfaction and independence.

http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value/dp/1594202230
Quite honestly, I never finished it. Way too much rambling and tangents (needs an editor). However, some great snippets and nuggets, especially about how and why so many managers veer away from any kind of decision making.

Reminded me of of an interview of a Highwire walker in a circus.
The interviewer asked "Are you crazy to do that for a living" Her response was. You get up every day, put on expensive clothing to go sit at a desk 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, 52 weeks a year. only to have a boss scream at you for not getting more done. Drive home in an hour of traffic.
I work 20 min a day and make twice what you do. And you call me crazy?

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

Great read of a thread. Thanks to everyone who contributed. I'm grateful to know that people besides myself are thinking about these issues.

[Van Huskey]

The bottom line for a majority of Americans is the simple price/quality balance. Asia has developed into a place where the price/quality equation makes sense for most woodworkers for machines and will remain that way until a NA company can attack it.

One question I have is even if someone decided to build NA machines where would the castings come from? Does Northfield get their castings from NA, how about General? I don't know just asking, there are not many CI casting outfits left here and I wonder if it would be cost effective to restart them...

[michael case]

For a thread that was threatened with execution from the get go this sure has had a long life!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

Let's get off the subject of war. It is too political and doesn't belong at this website per the TOSs.

Please.