Through Tenon Question

[Larry Feltner]

I have made regular mortise and tenon joints before, and while I'm certainly not the master of the mortise and tenon joint, I can generally get reasonably good results. However, I have never tried a through tenon. I am in the process of building a couple of projects for a charity event at my church. One of them, a quilt rack, I would like to use through tenons for the rails. Aside from the necessity of the tenon having to fit really well, another issue has crept into my mind. When I glue a joint I have always been taught to put glue on both surfaces. If I do this with a through tenon, the end of the tenon that sticks out beyond the side of the quilt rack will have glue all over it after I push it through the mortise. The clean up will be a mess. How do you guys deal with this issue so the end of the tenon remains as clean as possible? Do you only apply glue only to the area of the tenon that will come in contact with the mortise and apply no glue to the mortise itself? Is that enough glue? Or is there some way to protect the end the tenon so it remains clean after pushing it through the mortise? If I can't gain some confidence that I can pull this off reasonably well I am going to just use dowels drilled through the side into the rails. I'd rather do something a little more stylish and sturdy but I have a small amount of time and confidence.

[Prashun Patel]

If you make the tenon longer than the mortise, it'll be clean when you trim it.

Although, I think it should be easy enough to clean with a moist rag, no?

[Larry Feltner]

I guess I should have been a little more clear. Wouldn't glue be all over the the sides of the tenon that stick out beyond the side of the quilt rack if you also glue the mortise? I guess you could try to clean it with a wet rag but I've never had much success getting all of the glue off this way. Some invariably gets pushed into the grain and is difficult to remove. Maybe that is the best way to do it, but that seems like it will be difficult to get good results that way. Maybe I'm over thinking the it though.

[harry boyer]

I'm not an expert. I'd have a tight tenon and just put glue on the tenon up to a certain point. Dry part goes thru the mortise and out.

[harry strasil]

I thought the purpose of a thru mortise and tenon with stickout was to put a wedge in to hold it together so that it can be disassembled for storage.

[johnny means]

Wet rag and a small wet paint brush.

[johnny means]

I thought the purpose of a thru mortise and tenon with stickout was to put a wedge in to hold it together so that it can be disassembled for storage.

IME most through tenons are not wedged. IMO they are usually more of a aesthetic design detail more than anything else.

[Matt Zettl]

Larry,

When I do through tenons, I always wedge them, and make a dovetail shaped mortise. This is easier to do than it might appear. After making the square mortise, use a chisel to create a taper on each end of the mortise. It doesn't need to be much, only 1/16" - 1/8". I make two narrow slots in the tenon for the wedges with the band saw, drilling a 1/8" hole at the base of the slot to help prevent cracking.

I like to pre-finish my furniture with at least one coat of whatever finish I am using, as this really helps with cleaning up any squeeze out. Also, you can use painters tape around the mortise. Apply glue sparingly to the tenon cheeks, slide it into the mortise, put some glue on the wedges, pound them in to expand the tenon against the mortise, and you're just about done. Let the glue dry for about 1 - 2 hours, remove the tape, trim the wedges, and clean up any errant glue. Voila!

Hope this helps

Matt

[Kent A Bathurst]

I guess I should have been a little more clear. Wouldn't glue be all over the the sides of the tenon that stick out beyond the side of the quilt rack if you also glue the mortise? I guess you could try to clean it with a wet rag but I've never had much success getting all of the glue off this way. Some invariably gets pushed into the grain and is difficult to remove. Maybe that is the best way to do it, but that seems like it will be difficult to get good results that way. Maybe I'm over thinking the it though.

Larry - your concern is well-founded IMO. But - you are not alone. I have no lock on the "truth stick" - I just know what I have figured out that works for me.

Open-grain wood [white oak and red oak notorious] will cause exactly the problem you describe. I've done a lot of A+C / Stickley stuff, all with QSWO, and a number with through-tenons [not wedged, as noted earlier - this was a design detail common in the A+C style]. I have never had any kind of succcess with a wet rag - the glue is in the grain and won't wipe off. Even worse - you will smear a coat of dilute glue INTO the grain that will only be visible when you try to dye/stain/finish - this really sucks, when you find out at that stage of the game. So, I switched methods.

2 options to consider:

1) finish before glue-up, with blue-tape on the "to-be-glued" surfaces. The wet-rag works fine with the finish sealing the grain. Get some 1/4" - 3/8" dowels cut to a few inches long, and sharpen them in a pencil sharpener [or, just use a knife]. With a single or double layer of wet rag over this wooden point, you can get into corners and crevices to get the glue out. Any tool that is metal cannot be protected by the rag, and will scar the wood/finish, but the pointed wood dowel is soft enough to do the job. In your specific case - glue won't adhere to the finish, so you don't want to finish the entire tenon - just the last little bit.

2) Restrain your natural urges, and walk away from the fresh squeeze out. I use T-III, and after about 60 minutes or so [can vary with ambient temp/humidity, of course] the squeeze-out has cured to a rubbery condition. You can peel it off, or usually I need to go after it carefully with a chisel to lift it off. You need to practice to understand the right glue consistency - it can be skinned over, but still "liquid" on the wood surface.

I had crushing disapointment on the first couple QSWO things I ever made when I went after the glue with a wet rag - the residual won't take dye or stain. So I got good at the 2 options above, and I [usually] use them on even closed-grain wood now.

[Will Overton]

1) finish before glue-up, with blue-tape on the "to-be-glued" surfaces. The wet-rag works fine ...

+1

I am usually a bit stingy on the amount of glue I use inside the mortise, while making sure the portion of the tenon to be glued has a good coat.

[Jerome Hanby]

If the through mortise is purely for aesthetics, why not make the tenon extra long, saw off enough of the end so that it leaves some open mortise on the outside, then trim that piece to the correct length and use it like a plug. Same look, no mess (or least not the same kind of mess).

[Ted Wong]

"1) finish before glue-up, with blue-tape on the "to-be-glued" surfaces."

+2

[glenn bradley]

It seems we are talking about through tenons for the aesthetic aspect (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45905&d=1156975572), not tusk-tenons or wedged tenons that will be brought flush. I too pre-finish the tip and apply glue to the tenon only behind the finished area at the tip.

Although a bit more work I have also had luck with false through tenons where a normal M&T joint is used and a shallow mortise on the "show" side accepts a tenon-tip-looking "button". This tenon "button" can also conceal a screw head if mechanical fastening is desired.

A quilt rack (depending on design) can have a fairly small shoulder area where the cross pieces meet the sides to prevent racking and a mechanical fastener is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Bob Lang]

If the joint fits well, only a minimal amount of glue is needed. I get the tenons started in the joint, about 1/4" of so, then brush glue on the tenon. This leaves the end of the tenon that will be eventually seen clean, and as the joint is assembled enough glue will be spread on the inside of the mortise.

Bob Lang

[Kent A Bathurst]

.........use it like a plug. Same look........

That's cheating :D :D

[Prashun Patel]

I see now... You want the cheeks of the tenon to project out past the end of the joint.

You might consider altering yr design so that the tenon goes thru, but is chamfered back to the mortise. This way, glue on the cheeks will be moot.

If you don't want to finish the whole thing before, you can just paint a little shellac on the end grain and the end of the cheeks of the tenon that will project thru the joint. I'd still do a wet rag clean up after.

I've had the best luck removing squeeze out by letting it be for an hour until it gets semi hard. Then you can chisel it off without MOST of it getting embedded in the grain which is what happens when you rub with a wet rag.

[John Coloccia]

Them are some loose mortises if you can slide them in with a layer of tape on all 4 sides.

For what it's worth, I don't think I ever apply glue to both sides of the joint. The other thing you could consider is forget about glue entirely and use a drawbore. That's probably a far superior joint to any glued M&T anyway. Done properly, that drawbored M&T will be around long after you, you kids, your grandkids, etc have shuffled off your mortal coils. If done with a contrasting wood, it can look quite sharp too.

Yes, I believe I would use a drawbore here.

[Larry Feltner]

Lots of good suggestions. Having never done one, and worrying about the short amount of time I have, I wanted to have a good game plan going in. I like the idea of of putting a coat of finish on the exposed tenon before gluing it up. Now if I can cut a reasonably well fitting tenon, I'm in business. Thanks for the advise.

[Frank Drew]

I like to put some glue inside the mortise; if you only glue the tenon and it fits very closely you'll scrape a lot of that glue off as it's inserted.

For a through tenon that sticks out a bit, a nice look is to (carefully) chamfer all four edges of the projection after the glue had dried, which also neatly cleans up the glue residue issue.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I see now... You want the cheeks of the tenon to project out past the end of the joint....

Modern interpretation, but very representative of the A+C style - shows through-tenons. Easier to find this on the internets than find my camera for one of mine that is similar.

Generally, on this type of joinery, the flat edges of the tenon project 1/8" - 3/16", and then the chamfered end beyond that - total projection depends on the thickness of the tenon, typically - allowing for the 45* chamfer plus the flat surface.

http://www.voorheescraftsman.com/img-i-7005/Lamp%20Table-7005.jpg

[John Coloccia]

If you look closely, I think you'll noticed that it looks like a drawbored joint. What you might call a "half-blind" drawbore. If you look at the inside of the far leg, you don't see the dowel.

[Kent A Bathurst]

If you look closely, I think you'll noticed that it looks like a drawbored joint. What you might call a "half-blind" drawbore. If you look at the inside of the far leg, you don't see the dowel.

John - AFAIK - from my reasonably large collection of drawings, plans, books for Stickley, and a bit from others of the same era, and books, and blah-blah-blah.......[not an "expert" - but all our homes have been A+C, nearly all the furniture I have built is A+C, we have a few nice-but-not-museum-quality Stickley, Limbert, Roycroft, etc pieces - nothing more than I am interested in, and have studied, the era a bit, that's all]

These are not drawbored - at least in my understanding of the term. Scout's Honor. They are simple pins - the piece is fully glued and assembled, and then a hole drilled through the front of the leg [or whatever] and through the tenon, but not all the way through the back of the leg. A dowel is glued into the hole - so it's a "half-blind dowel/pin/peg" - but that's not hte same as drawbore, unless I am mistaken. Still lasts basically forever.

Stickley was a production shop, remember [a wide variety of "Stickley" operations, as the brothers came together in vairous combinations, broke apart, reformed]. Big Bro Gustav also had this "lifestyle-including-furniture-for-the-regualar-joe" marxist-commie-pinko-commune-pre-hippie mantra [just kidding ;)] going on, and published info on how you could build this stuff yourself at home with limited tools and skills. With cut lists, dimensions, tools required, etc - not the detailed quality of what you and I would consider "plans", but still........

BUT - when you go to Stickley's meduim-to-large-sized settles, you are correct. The main stretchers and back rails that go from end-to-end are drawbored through-tenons. And not glued. They did this to allow for disassembly in case you needed to move them. Not from one wall of the living room to another wall, but move them.

[John Coloccia]

Well then, I stand corrected :)

[Kent A Bathurst]

Well then, I stand corrected :)

And if I ever get into anything remotely like fine-detailed-inlay-guitar stuff, I will look to you for that.:p

One attractive quality of the A+C style - mostly square, mostly straight-forward [not necessarily "simple"] joinery. Perfect for me - klutz magnet stuff.

[Richard Amabile]

Kent:

You mentioned that Gustav published information on how to build some of the furniture with cut lists, dimensions, tools, etc. Do you have a source for where I might find that information?

Thanks

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent:

You mentioned that Gustav published information on how to build some of the furniture with cut lists, dimensions, tools, etc. Do you have a source for where I might find that information?

Thanks

yes

pm about to be sent

[Gene Waara]

....Although a bit more work I have also had luck with false through tenons where a normal M&T joint is used and a shallow mortise on the "show" side accepts a tenon-tip-looking "button". This tenon "button" can also conceal a screw head if mechanical fastening is desired.....

Glenn - GREAT IDEA! I am in the planning stages of a live edge sofa table and I too wanted a through tenon. I didn't want a wedge but did plan to miter the edge as your sketch shows. Thanks for the tip - much easier with the same end result (and no, I don't mind cheating. My dad used to say "a professional won't say anything and an amateur won't notice!).