Achieving the impossible

[Chris Mahoney]

My boss told me today that I need to figure out how to engrave the word "SAMPLE" on 12,000 dental implant screws. The screw is about 1/8" x 7/16". I can either engrave on the threads or along the top ridge (which is only .018" in diameter). The punchline is that my x-axis motor went out today and I need to let her know if I will be able to do this by tomorrow. Does anyone know how I should go about this?

[Brian Fiore]

I wish I could offer more advice then the following:

It seems like a sign from the All Mighty (that your X-axis is out) to not take on the job.

Good luck :)

[Gary Hair]

That size is going to be impossible to engrave. The fixture to hold the screws would be a piece of cake but you can't engrave that small. The text would be .345 points and the individual lines that comprise the text is smaller than the laser beam on any machine I know of at .00043" - that's arial at a width of .01524. The smallest text you can laser legibly is goint to have lines of about .005 wide, the typical width of a laser beam. Unless a galvo laser has a smaller beam, I think you are out of luck.

Oh, and even if you can engrave that small, you can't see it without magnification so it would be pretty useless.

Gary

[Dan Hintz]

Chris,

On the ULS, there's a lens option called HPDFO that will net you 1mil spot size... I do not know what Epilog calls it, but I know they have a similar option.

Your jig will have to be very tight in tolerance (no wiggling), but 18 mil faces are definitely doable. With such a tight focal point, you could most likely mark the metal directly, but I would still consider Cermark for speed (as funny as that sounds).


EDIT: Another option would be to have a local die shop create you a hardened steel stamp ('SAMPLE') that you could press into the threads, though I imagine with dental implants the metal may be too tough to stamp anything into.


EDIT 2: I don't know where you are, but if you don't want the job, I'd be interested...

[Chuck Stone]

EDIT: Another option would be to have a local die shop create you a hardened steel stamp ('SAMPLE') that you could press into the threads, though I imagine with dental implants the metal may be too tough to stamp anything into.

usually pure titanium, I think.

[Jim Coffee]

I read this thread and I am caused to wonder "Why?"

Seriously...I really am curious...why would someone want the word "Sample" engraved on 12,000 screws.

I could understand a company name, or logo, or ... But "Sample"? My mind tends to think along line of marketing. I can't get my head around this one.

Thanks.

[Joe De Medeiros]

I read this thread and I am caused to wonder "Why?"

Seriously...I really am curious...why would someone want the word "Sample" engraved on 12,000 screws.

I could understand a company name, or logo, or ... But "Sample"? My mind tends to think along line of marketing. I can't get my head around this one.

Thanks.

I guess they don't want Dentists to accidentally use them. Thousands of years from now when archeologists are examining fossil remains they will be stumped by the words "SAMPLE" imprinted on the screws. ;)

[Robert Walters]

This...



** * * * ** * ***
* * * *** * * * *
* *** *** ** * **
* * * * * * * *
** * * * * * *** *** And...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra1doiL3Tck&feature=related


=)

[Dan Hintz]

Seriously...I really am curious...why would someone want the word "Sample" engraved on 12,000 screws.
These screws have probably not passed inspection like ones that will go into someone jaw... as such, the company does not want to hand them out and have them inadvertently end up in someone's medical toolchest (leading to a lawsuit down the road... can you imagine walking into a courtroom with proof the metal rods in your body have the word 'sample' written on them?).

[Chris Mahoney]

I guess they don't want Dentists to accidentally use them. Thousands of years from now when archeologists are examining fossil remains they will be stumped by the words "SAMPLE" imprinted on the screws. ;)

yes that's exactly right. It's a liability issue. We make models for dental/bone implants that are not intended for human use, so we have to put "SAMPLE" on them so if some not-so-smart doctor decides to try to use them, we won't get sued!

[Chris Mahoney]

usually pure titanium, I think.

they are pure titanium. I was doubtful the laser would be able to make such a small, precise mark.

[Chris Mahoney]

Thanks for the feedback! It sounds like this project is just not going to work out in the end. The funny part is, my boss said if the laser can't do it, find a machine that can. Thank God she already told the customer we could do it without asking THE ENGRAVER first.... crazy concept, I know.

[Dan Hintz]

Chris,

Read my first post... if you can't do it, I'll take the project on.

[Chris Mahoney]

My boss told me today that I need to figure out how to engrave the word "SAMPLE" on 12,000 dental implant screws. The screw is about 1/8" x 7/16". I can either engrave on the threads or along the top ridge (which is only .018" in diameter). The punchline is that my x-axis motor went out today and I need to let her know if I will be able to do this by tomorrow. Does anyone know how I should go about this?



I'm sorry everyone but I miss-typed the measurement of the diameter! its 0.18"!!! the width of the area for the word to go on is about 1mm. sorry for the typo!

[Chris Mahoney]

Chris,

On the ULS, there's a lens option called HPDFO that will net you 1mil spot size... I do not know what Epilog calls it, but I know they have a similar option.

Your jig will have to be very tight in tolerance (no wiggling), but 18 mil faces are definitely doable. With such a tight focal point, you could most likely mark the metal directly, but I would still consider Cermark for speed (as funny as that sounds).


EDIT: Another option would be to have a local die shop create you a hardened steel stamp ('SAMPLE') that you could press into the threads, though I imagine with dental implants the metal may be too tough to stamp anything into.


EDIT 2: I don't know where you are, but if you don't want the job, I'd be interested...

I haven't seen any option relating to that but I'll look again! the screws are titanium so I don't think stamping them will be very easy. I'm in northern Indiana if you are anywhere near there

[Rodne Gold]

I use cerdec/cermark/thermark/whatever metal marking compound on titanium hip joint replacement pins/sockets- works a charm.
In terms of danger to the recipient it has been tested as safe by our medical council and bureau of standards by the client who we do it for. I can't provide relevant certification as this is the clients property and they are not willing to publish them as it seems to have some competitive advantage (I see no reason why there is an advantage?)
The lettering and scales are at times about 1mm high and are legible(done with a stock 2" lens)

[Dan Hintz]

Sheesh, 180 mils? That's easy! I'm near D.C., but shipping those would be a cinch... titanium is light.

If your boss wants me to quote on them, send the details to my gmail account (MacGyverS2000@) and I'll get back to you with one.

[Martin Boekers]

Will the surgeons be able to read them without a microscope?

[Doug Griffith]

Chris,

Read my first post... if you can't do it, I'll take the project on.

12k is a big number. You'd definitely want to build fancy fixtures with a fixture to load those fixtures. At a conservative 30 seconds each for all the handling and lasering it's a good 100 hours. Knowing how to optimize to save even a second each really counts with a job like this. I'm sure you've got the gray matter and cajones to do this job Dan.

[Chris Mahoney]

Sheesh, 180 mils? That's easy! I'm near D.C., but shipping those would be a cinch... titanium is light.

If your boss wants me to quote on them, send the details to my gmail account (MacGyverS2000@) and I'll get back to you with one.

Thanks for the offer Dan! I'm going to a local epilog laser retailer with the screws to work something out. We might need to purchase a new machine but I'll talk to my boss about it. Keep in mind that she updated the number to 120,000 screws.. which cost around 60 bucks a piece. I can see if I can arrange sending you a few sample screws to experiment with

[Joe De Medeiros]

Thanks for the offer Dan! I'm going to a local epilog laser retailer with the screws to work something out. We might need to purchase a new machine but I'll talk to my boss about it. Keep in mind that she updated the number to 120,000 screws.. which cost around 60 bucks a piece. I can see if I can arrange sending you a few sample screws to experiment with

With those kind of numbers, you need an assembly line type of operation with a vibratory screw feeder and a galvo type setup. I don't think it would be practical with a flat bed laser. Automation is really the only practical way to handle this quantity.

[Dan Hintz]

Keep in mind that she updated the number to 120,000 screws.. which cost around 60 bucks a piece.
It figures... medical components are the most over-priced items on the market (next to military equipment). Other than FDA approval for the install process (and making sure it's the correct alloy), that $60 screw cost <$0.20 to manufacture. I do contract work for a major medical device company (Becton Dickinson), and the real money is in the supplies, not the equipment.

Even at 120k units, I'm interested, though we would need to discuss delivery times (this isn't a weekend job), most likely staggered.

Anyway, no point in discussing it here... if your company is interested, let me know and we'll discuss it offline.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'd think you'd want a YAG laser and skip dealing with cermark.

Here's a YAG with the conveyor. I guess it would be close to perfect for the thing you're trying to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0vyosN_5cY

[Doug Griffith]

I'd think you'd want a YAG laser and skip dealing with cermark.

Here's a YAG with the conveyor. I guess it would be close to perfect for the thing you're trying to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0vyosN_5cY

I doubt that conveyor system can hold the tolerances required for such small items. Plus someone will have to be continually loading small fixtures and placing on the belt and trying to align. I'd build 2 of the largest grid fixtures that hold as many parts that my machine can take. Load/unload one while the other is being lasered. Loading the fixtures is going to be the fun part.

[Scott Shepherd]

I doubt that conveyor system can hold the tolerances required for such small items. Plus someone will have to be continually loading small fixtures and placing on the belt and trying to align. I'd build 2 of the largest grid fixtures that hold as many parts that my machine can take. Load/unload one while the other is being lasered. Loading the fixtures is going to be the fun part.

It's not that precise of a job. 1/8" tall, you could do that. The conveyor would have to be modified or some fixturing done. Otherwise, a lazy susan type system with precision built into it would probably work well. You could have 5-10 parts at each burn, rotate it 45 degrees, 10 more burning, etc.

I'd rather have it run and someone feed it all day and night than have to load and unload fixtures. I have a job I do often that's normally about 2,000-4,000 at a time. I made fixtures to do the job. I can run 250 of them at a time. It runs 250 of them in 2 minutes 30 seconds. However, it takes 15 minutes to unload and load the fixture :) It takes 3 people to keep up with it. I have multiple fixtures and swap them out with fresh parts, but it's still a royal pain to load large numbers of small parts into a fixture that holds 100's.

There are probably some really good solutions out there, but I'd be looking into a system like this with a YAG setup rather than a CO2 that requires marking compound.

Just my opinion.

[Doug Griffith]

It's not that precise of a job. 1/8" tall, you could do that. The conveyor would have to be modified or some fixturing done. Otherwise, a lazy susan type system with precision built into it would probably work well. You could have 5-10 parts at each burn, rotate it 45 degrees, 10 more burning, etc.

I'd rather have it run and someone feed it all day and night than have to load and unload fixtures. I have a job I do often that's normally about 2,000-4,000 at a time. I made fixtures to do the job. I can run 250 of them at a time. It runs 250 of them in 2 minutes 30 seconds. However, it takes 15 minutes to unload and load the fixture :) It takes 3 people to keep up with it. I have multiple fixtures and swap them out with fresh parts, but it's still a royal pain to load large numbers of small parts into a fixture that holds 100's.

There are probably some really good solutions out there, but I'd be looking into a system like this with a YAG setup rather than a CO2 that requires marking compound.

Just my opinion.

Actually, the engravable area is app. .040" tall. So the letters would be +-.030". That's fairly tight tolerances for a piece of moving equipment that isn't numerically controlled. I'd still go with multiple fixtures and build a fixture to load them. I agree with getting away from a coating like Cermark. A machine like an Epilog Fibermark might be a good choice. I'd also run a test to see if vector lettering runs faster than bitmap.

[Martin Boekers]

With a run of 120,000 you think that "sample" could be fabricated into the
screw at the time of machining.


Marty

[Scott Shepherd]

Awww, come on Doug, with all your precision gearing products, I'm sure you could devise a precise delivery method that would feed them in!

Feed in, feed out :) If you can't tell, I really really really really, REALLY dislike loading and unloading small parts.

You're probably also looking at a low price point too. I suspect many people would like to make $1 each on them, when the reality is probably a fraction of that.

[Chris Mahoney]

I'm actually going today to a local epilog retailer to use the fibermark machine and to possibly purchase it.The challenge is going to be scraping up enough cash for the payment on the thing. The order itself will be completed in smaller numbers over a period of time. It's 1,000 "kits" with 120 of the screws per kit. As far as a fixture goes, I'm thinking something simple with a few hundred parts per job. Slow and steady wins the race...

[Doug Griffith]

Awww, come on Doug, with all your precision gearing products, I'm sure you could devise a precise delivery method that would feed them in!

Feed in, feed out :) If you can't tell, I really really really really, REALLY dislike loading and unloading small parts.

You're probably also looking at a low price point too. I suspect many people would like to make $1 each on them, when the reality is probably a fraction of that.

Speaking of gears, I just finished cutting 800 Delrin gears for the transmissions I mentioned in an earlier post. That was a pain in the butt.

Doing the math, 120k screws at $60 a pop is over 7 million dollars. I think they can afford to spend a little on the engraving.

And since I'm in Illustrator right now, I banged out a quick concept for fixturing the screws.

[Tom Delaney]

Another reason for labeling things "SAMPLE" is to avoid the importation tax. I spent many years with an apparel importer and we would bring in many, many pocket tee's with SAMPLE across the chest. Customers would have a blast changing the sample to simple, or putting a 'me' underneath. As long as they are labeled as such BEFORE importation, they are duty free (at least in the apparel world).

[Rodne Gold]

Wow, 7bar on sample items? Thats a lot of tom....

[Robert Walters]

Here's a YAG with the conveyor. I guess it would be close to perfect for the thing you're trying to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0vyosN_5cY


If the belt had "V" grooves, then screw would just drop into place.
I think they mentioned having different types of belts too.

Place guides staggered on either side of the conveyor belt to align the Y Axis (so to speak).

Then just have a hopper on one end that bottom feeds the screws on to the belt, one at a time.

If you align it just right, screw head orientation won't matter.

[Scott Shepherd]

Or perhaps v grooves and you just lay them in there. Butt the head against the edge and you're registered in both axis.

Just thinking out loud....

This is a poor drawing, as I'd have the "v" groove's close together so I could put 100's on each fixture. Would make loading and unloading fairly easy. Just drop it in, slide it until it stops, hit the go button.

[Sandy Henry]

Dan, Many titanium surgical screws are clear anodized & that makes them easier to laser mark. May want to ask about it. If they are not anodized & you take a bad shot, it can be cleaned off with light glass bead blast. (no second chance if they are anodized) Sandy

[Rangarajan Saravana kumar]

Hi,

How about a magnetic jig to place its position precise, as the laser do not need force to hold?

Regards,
Saravana kumar