New LV Saws

[Gil Knowles]

Well LV has come out with a couple of new saws. I wish they would quit doing this. (LOL) Just when I think I do not need any more tools they come out with something new. Very good intro. price for the two of them.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=66066&cat=51&ap=1

Gil

[Charlie Stone]

that is so very very wrong of them. Those bastards.

[paul cottingham]

Yes, I am going to have to get even with them by buying them both.

no, wait.....

[John Coloccia]

Great. Now I have to make another saw till. Thanks, Rob :mad:

[David Weaver]

Wow...$100 for two high quality resharpenable saws. That's pretty convincing.

[Mark Maleski]

Wow...$100 for two high quality resharpenable saws. That's pretty convincing.

I'd say they easily win on the "best value" measurement (I'm giving the benefit of doubt on "high quality" because I'm sure they are).

[Will Boulware]

Well isn't this just unnecessarily convenient? I need a set of high-quality mid-size carcass saws, and I'm broke. These fit the bill perfectly, and they'll match my current dovetail/crosscut combo. Mr. Lee, you're out to ruin my personal finances, and I thank you for it! :D

[Shawn Clark]

As a beginning Neander (who is just about to pull the trigger on the LV dovetail/crosscut combo) could someone explain why I would need to add these to my order?

[Mac Houtz]

um....yeah....I'll definitely be buying that pair at that price....damned tool peddlers will get you every time.

[Mark Maleski]

...could someone explain why I would need to add these to my order?

You don't, but don't let that stop you. (What, you think anyone here would try to talk you out of buying tools?)

[Matt Radtke]

Well, I was /going/ to make the switch to Shaptons in November, but I guess I'm getting a couple LV Carcass saws instead. . .

[alex grams]

Darn, my self control is waning...

Good till Nov 30th... hmmm

[John Coloccia]

As a beginning Neander (who is just about to pull the trigger on the LV dovetail/crosscut combo) could someone explain why I would need to add these to my order?

I think, therefore I buy.

Beyond that, this whole concept of "need" is far too philosophical, and that sort of deep thought has no place in the shop.

[Richard Magbanua]

Hi, my name is Richard... and I have a saw problem.

$99 for TWO saws? Nice.

[Shawn Clark]

I guess my question should be restated. Given a limited budget (and the fact I need marking gauges/squares/dividers) would this new set get me started with joinery or do I still "need" a dovetail saw also?

Thanks.

[John Coloccia]

You'll have a difficult time make dovetails with the carcass saw. It's a bit more difficult to align because of the size (though some may actually find it easier to align) and 12tpi is a bit coarse for fine work on the thinner material you typically are dovetailing (drawers, for example).

Given a choice, and remember this is just how *I* work, if I were to get it down to a minimal set that could pretty much do all my joinery, I'd pick up:

- a 14tpi (or thereabouts) dovetail saw (filed rip)
- a pair of carcass saws, one filed rip and the other filed crosscut.

The dovetail saw will make all your dovetail cuts. It doesn't matter that one of the cuts is a crosscut (the shoulders on the pins) because it's a very small cut typically. The carcass saws do the cheeks and shoulders of the tenons, and the tenon itself. For that, it's helpful to have the saw properly filed for the type of cut you're making because they're rather long cuts in thicker wood typically.

Carcass saws do a lot more than just tenons, of course, and then there are tenon saws that can be bigger.

Of course, if you're making very small tenons, there's nothing wrong with using the smaller dovetail saws to do that, and then you'd also want the crosscut "dovetail" saw.

Again, it's just my opinion. There's plenty of people that do fine work with one, larger saw.

[Will Boulware]

Bah! So much for willpower and determination. Just pulled the trigger for both saws and a copy of the Schwarz's new workbench book. These things should come with a warning label or something. Highly addictive!! :D

[alex grams]

Will, the neander, turning and carving forums should all have disclaimers on them if you asked me...

[Chris Griggs]

You'll have a difficult time make dovetails with the carcass saw. It's a bit more difficult to align because of the size (though some may actually find it easier to align) and 12tpi is a bit coarse for fine work on the thinner material you typically are dovetailing (drawers, for example).

Given a choice, and remember this is just how *I* work, if I were to get it down to a minimal set that could pretty much do all my joinery, I'd pick up:

- a 14tpi (or thereabouts) dovetail saw (filed rip)
- a pair of carcass saws, one filed rip and the other filed crosscut.

The dovetail saw will make all your dovetail cuts. It doesn't matter that one of the cuts is a crosscut (the shoulders on the pins) because it's a very small cut typically. The carcass saws do the cheeks and shoulders of the tenons, and the tenon itself. For that, it's helpful to have the saw properly filed for the type of cut you're making because they're rather long cuts in thicker wood typically.

Carcass saws do a lot more than just tenons, of course, and then there are tenon saws that can be bigger.

Of course, if you're making very small tenons, there's nothing wrong with using the smaller dovetail saws to do that, and then you'd also want the crosscut "dovetail" saw.

Again, it's just my opinion. There's plenty of people that do fine work with one, larger saw.

Shawn,

Regarding a rip carcass saw. I've actually never used or owned a true dovetail saw. I use a Lie-Nielsen Rip Carcass that is 15ppi for all my dovetailing. The extra length of the saw can be nice especially if you gang cut (clamp two boards together) when you cut your tails (if your tails first). To John's point about the tooth count, aside from the size my saw is identical to the most dovetail saw (.20" saw plate & 15ppi). The 12ppi count on the Veritas could make dovetailing a little more difficult but I think you could definitely adapt. Actually, before I got my 15 point LN saw I had a chance to try out their 10 point version of the same saw for a couple of weeks, and wrote up a review of how the 15ppi and the 10ppi compared for cutting dovetails and tenoning. I don't think I can post a link to the review since its to my personal blog but here is the address that you can copy and paste into your browser: chrisgriggs.blogspot.com/2010/02/over-my-dead-carcass-saw-review-and.html

Anyway, its certainly not the same as comparing the LV dovetail saw to their 12 point rip carcass, but it might help you identify what the tradeoffs are.

I'd say if your sure you want to learn to cut handcut dovetails and plan to do a lot of it then get the dovetail saw. Otherwise start with the set of carcass saws and when after you've confirmed that you enjoy doing hadncut joinery (which you will), then buy a dedicated dovetail saw.

You'll be able to do a lot with those two carcass saws. Just my humble opinion. Hope it helps.

[Rob Lee]

that is so very very wrong of them. Those bastards.

Yeah - that goes double for next week....:D

We ain't done yet...

Cheers -

Rob

[Matt Radtke]

Yeah - that goes double for next week....:D

We ain't done yet...


I don't even. . .

How can you . . .

I ALREADY BOUGHT THE CARCASS SAWS. STOP RELEASING MORE NEW GOODIES!

[Chris Friesen]

Yeah - that goes double for next week....:D

We ain't done yet...

Just in time for Christmas....coincidence?

[Rob Lee]

Just in time for Christmas....coincidence?

I think not...:D

[Prashun Patel]

Shawn-
Limited budget and neander don't go hand-in-hand. You WILL spend a lot on quality tools eventually. The trick is to space it out over time.

What do you want to start with? If you want to do dovetails, get a dovetail saw. It's a difficult task even with the perfect saw. I have the 20tpi LV dovetail saw a couple months back and am still challenged to make clean dovetails. At least now I don't have to secondguess my saw choice.

Just my 2cents.

[Will Boulware]

I don't even. . .

How can you . . .

I ALREADY BOUGHT THE CARCASS SAWS. STOP RELEASING MORE NEW GOODIES!


^ What he said! But rather than fume and be mad, I'm going to politely ask for a hint as to what else lies in store? :D Inquiring minds want to know!

[Chris Griggs]

^ What he said! But rather than fume and be mad, I'm going to politely ask for a hint as to what else lies in store? :D Inquiring minds want to know!

I hope its the large plow. Although last I heard that was still 6 mos to a year away. I doubt its more saws, I read a post from Rob a while back where he said that the carcass saws were pushing the limits of their back saw technology.

Ooooooooooooooooh, maybe its some cool new plane that none of us have every heard of and won't reallize that we "need" until it comes out. :D

[Brian Yates]

I love my LV dovetail saw and I was ready to pull the trigger for the new set of carcass saws until I saw Rob's post! Now I'm afraid to commit!

Ahh this indecision is killing me! I need (well, really want) these saws, and now I have to wait until next week's reveal to see if I should spend my pennies on door number one or curtain number two...

The good news is I'm in Ottawa next week for business so even if I don't buy I can always fondle in the store.;)

I hope Santa has been looking the other way this year.:rolleyes:

[paul cottingham]

I hope its the large plow. Although last I heard that was still 6 mos to a year away. I doubt its more saws, I read a post from Rob a while back where he said that the carcass saws were pushing the limits of their back saw technology.

Ooooooooooooooooh, maybe its some cool new plane that none of us have every heard of and won't reallize that we "need" until it comes out. :D

Stop it right now!

My wife is already having kittens.

[Howard Bueling]

..
The good news is I'm in Ottawa next week for business so even if I don't buy I can always fondle in the store.;)
.:rolleyes:

Careful you could caught fondling:eek:

[Trevor Walsh]

I agree with John C. for the most part. I did really enjoy the length and mass of the Gramercy rip carcass saw, I haven't had a chance to use it on dovetails, but I expect I'll like it. Gang cutting will certainly be a major function for it in addition to joinery. I'd say go for the carcass set, and get used to cutting and marking "normal" joinery before working on dovetails, which are really exacting.

Damn it Rob Lee, fortunately I just got payed, but really, this could be dangerous. I've already bookmarked your side rabbet plane, and maybe the cabinet scraper...I can't wait to see what is coming out next week. Dovetail plane:rolleyes: I can dream, that will go in the cart immediately.

[Bob Warfield]

I can't believe no one here attended WIA. These 2 saws were on display, and are very sweet saws. There was also another little something on display that was mocked up in carbon fiber. I won't say what it was but I have a feeling!
Thanks,
Bob Warfield

[John A. Callaway]

well, I have the LV DT saw and I love it... But what worries me, and this may be my inexperience talking here is the depth of the blade on these saws for some tenon cuts.... and the heft of the saw....The DT saw is light and sorta floats over the wood as I start my cut... and I like that.... but dont you want a heavier feeling carcass saw?

I am sure these are awesome saws, but I will wait till I visit highland woodworking again to try one before I scoop up the set....

[John Coloccia]

well, I have the LV DT saw and I love it... But what worries me, and this may be my inexperience talking here is the depth of the blade on these saws for some tenon cuts.... and the heft of the saw....The DT saw is light and sorta floats over the wood as I start my cut... and I like that.... but dont you want a heavier feeling carcass saw?

I am sure these are awesome saws, but I will wait till I visit highland woodworking again to try one before I scoop up the set....

Have you tried other DT saws than the Veritas? I actually thought it felt at least as heavy as other saws, and maybe a touch heavier, to be honest. I think the LN I tried had good heft to it as well, but the Veritas still felt heavier. A lot of other saws I tried felt pretty light in comparison.

For what it's worth, I didn't really compare them in terms of weight. It's just my impression so maybe I'm wildly off base here. I'm sure balance has a lot to do with it as well.

[Pat Barry]

I love how they make plastic sound like a good thing. You can't seriously be thinking of paying that kind of money for a plastic tool.

[Matt Evans]

I am seriously thinking about buying these. I have really needed to replace my dovetail saw for a while now, and the intro price on these might actually make me able to justify finally doing just that.

My one question for folks who may have gotten them already. . .

The totes look as though they may be a bit smallish. I have massive meathooks for hands.

If anyone with large hands has these can they chime in with how the totes feel to them?

Thanks.

[Rob Lee]

I love how they make plastic sound like a good thing. You can't seriously be thinking of paying that kind of money for a plastic tool.

Pat -

By weight - the material is probably more stainless steel than "plastic". It's actually a glass filled nylon composite binder with SS powder - it has a stiffness and memory that can be an advantage over a brass. The actual spine itself is modelled to put the balance point of the saw exactly where we wanted it (by adjusting shape, and formulation of the injected material). If you cut the spine - you'd see it's actually silver in color.

I am unaware of any other product in the woodworking industry that uses this technology. It's an advanced material, used appropriately.

Cheers -

Rob
(who still uses a wooden hockey stick - and understands the preference for traditional materials, despite recognizing the advancement composites afford)

[David Weaver]

For $100 for two, as long as the plate is good quality (I've never held one of these saws, so I'm going to assume it is), who cares what it's made of?

I wouldn't care if it was john deere green (wink wink nod nod) with a pee yellow blade for that price.

[John Coloccia]

For $100 for two, as long as the plate is good quality (I've never held one of these saws, so I'm going to assume it is), who cares what it's made of?

I wouldn't care if it was john deere green (wink wink nod nod) with a pee yellow blade for that price.

I for one accept Pat's offer of buying me the saw of his choice.

:D

[alex grams]

Matt Evans,
I have meathook hands too, and have the Lee Valley dovetail saw, and while I can't fully compare its tote to these saws carcass saws, the dovetail saw fits comfortably in my hand. By comparison, I also have a wenzloff dovetail saw, which is a little snug for my hand vs the Lee Valley.

Maybe Rob can chime in and say if the tote on the new carcass saws are the same as the dovetail saw. I am sure they are, but would rather confirm for you rather than you purchase on an assumption of mine.

[John Coloccia]

I am seriously thinking about buying these. I have really needed to replace my dovetail saw for a while now, and the intro price on these might actually make me able to justify finally doing just that.

My one question for folks who may have gotten them already. . .

The totes look as though they may be a bit smallish. I have massive meathooks for hands.

If anyone with large hands has these can they chime in with how the totes feel to them?

Thanks.

The reason I settled on the Veritas is it seemed to have the most comfortable tote for me. I felt cramped on the LN. I think Cosman's saws have big totes too but they're so dang expensive (doesn't mean I don't want one, though!).

[Randy Briggs]

You know what they say about big hands.....big gloves.:D

I will definitely buy these saws. I already have the LV DT saw and I have very large paws (can palm a basketball easily) and feel the dovetail saw tote is fine with me. So if the carcass saws are the same or slightly larger, meat hooks should fit fine.

PS Definitely going to get these btw

[Zach England]

I love how they make plastic sound like a good thing. You can't seriously be thinking of paying that kind of money for a plastic tool.


1) I've never read a bad review of their saws. Some people don't care for them, but I have never seen anyone call them a poor tool. I personally like mine, but would not say I love it.

2) Composite and plastic are not the same thing.

3)They are quite inexpensive relative to their competitors.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

Maybe Rob can chime in and say if the tote on the new carcass saws are the same as the dovetail saw. I am sure they are, but would rather confirm for you rather than you purchase on an assumption of mine.

Hi Alex -

Yes - they have the same handles as the dovetail saws...

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Young]

The totes look as though they may be a bit smallish. I have massive meathooks for hands.



Given the way the handle attaches, it seems straight forward to make a new handle more to your like should the old be too small.

It looks like the critical portion to the fit of the handle to the saw is at the top were the handle curves a bit to match the back rib. The hang angle could be adjusted a little bit but you are somewhat limited by the angle to bolt comes off the back.

[Kris Koenig]

I am seriously thinking about buying these. I have really needed to replace my dovetail saw for a while now, and the intro price on these might actually make me able to justify finally doing just that.

My one question for folks who may have gotten them already. . .

The totes look as though they may be a bit smallish. I have massive meathooks for hands.

If anyone with large hands has these can they chime in with how the totes feel to them?

Thanks.

I don't have the new ones, but I have one of the first ones they released. It feels good in my hand. I am 6'9" and about 340 lbs. I just grabbed a ruler to check the width across my palm (5"). Maybe it could be a little bigger, but it was comfortable as is.

Kris Koenig

[Todd Hyman]

The good news is I'm in Ottawa next week for business so even if I don't buy I can always fondle in the store.;) :rolleyes:


Make sure you wash your hands before and after!:D

[Matt Evans]

You know what they say about big hands.....big gloves.:D


Very, Very true. . . It also means that small items are a bear to work on.


Given the way the handle attaches, it seems straight forward to make a new handle more to your like should the old be too small.

I did see that. I am trying to avoid making more totes, but that is my normal approach. I seem to have made a lot of totes in the last 2 years, and am hoping to just find something that I can use as is.


I don't have the new ones, but I have one of the first ones they released. It feels good in my hand. I am 6'9" and about 340 lbs. I just grabbed a ruler to check the width across my palm (5"). Maybe it could be a little bigger, but it was comfortable as is.
Kris Koenig

Well. . .

Look like I may have found a winning set of saws then! My hands aren't THAT large, but you have over a foot on me in height.



Thanks for the replies. The Set will be ordered within the next week or two.

[Gary Hodgin]

Thanks for the post! This is close enough to what I'd been wanting for me to pull the trigger. I have a LN dovetail and a LN 11" cross-cut carcass. I'd been wanting to add something a bit larger. The 12" rip and 14" cross-cut fit my needs well. Obviously, I haven't used either of these saws, but I'm counting on Veritas's great reputation. The $99 price is a great deal for one good saw, much less two.

[Rob Young]

... am hoping to just find something that I can use as is.
.

Well, where's the fun in that!?! :cool:

[Mark Baldwin III]

A question for Mr. Lee, or anyone who has used these saws. Are these good for tenons? I would like to learn mortise and tenon work. From what I can see it takes two good saws to do it (a rip and a cross-cut) plus the proper chisels. Most of the tenon saws on the market are WAY out of my league on cost. These are the perfect price. I have a few LV tools, and I know the quality is outstanding. I just want to make sure that I buy a great tool for the right purpose. (sheesh...I'm going to buy them anyway, but I want to say that I bought them for cutting tenons).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mark

For sawing down the length of a 2-3" tenon you would ideally want a longer saw (14-16") with a coarser rip-filed blade, something like a 10-11 ppi.

The saws in question (which I have not used) appear orientated to a finer saw cut, where the result is seen.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Asher Langton]

I love how they make plastic sound like a good thing. You can't seriously be thinking of paying that kind of money for a plastic tool.

I have the set of LV dovetail saws, and I can assure you that the spine is not just "plastic". If someone had handed me the tool without telling me what the spine was made of, I would've guessed that it was steel. The dovetail saws work great and are priced fairly, so I would (and probably will) buy these without any reservations.

[Matt Radtke]

Sweet--just got my saws home. I'll post some pictures later tonight!

[Brian Yates]

Did you get a chance to use your new saws yet? I'm wondering if I should buy these or wait until next August for the Tenon saw I heard is coming.

Congratulations on the new tools!:)

[Will Boulware]

Got my saws in last night. I know, pics or it didn't happen, but I've been a bit busy lately, blah blah...

Anyway, back to the saws. INCREDIBLE pieces of work. They cut beautifully. I had high expectations, and yet again, they were exceeded. Great company. :D

[Matt Radtke]

Did you get a chance to use your new saws yet? I'm wondering if I should buy these or wait until next August for the Tenon saw I heard is coming.


Briefly, but yes I did--2 cuts with the rip and 3 with the crosscut in some scrap pine. I have pictures, but well, my camera has too many mega-pickels and didn't have time to scale them before uploading.

I compared it speed-wise and quality of cut to my old Diston carcass saw, 14ppi rip.

My Diston was slightly faster than the LV rip, but A) it has less rake than the LV and B) I assume the LV will catch up/pass it once it's broken in.

The kerf isn't even a fair comparison, with the LV thinner, cleaner, and has less breakout on the backside.

[Gary Hodgin]

Mine arrived about 20 minutes ago. Haven't tried them, but here's a (no-so-great) picture. Can't wait to put them to use. Feel a need to cut something now.

[Chuck Tringo]

Just received my set today and I have to say they are as sleek as the dovetail saw.... i Know there are folks who hate the look and prefer traditional, but I personally like both looks. the first thing that I noticed and I'm not sure if it is perception or true, is that they seem a little light compared to the dovetail saw.....in fact the dovetail saw seems to weigh as much as the carcass saw which is obviously larger. i will weigh them on a postal scale later to test my theory. Test cut with both and they cut perfectly as expected. The crosscut left a smooth edge in pine, as smooth as my 14 inch Badaxe. the rip cut well also, not quite as well as the Adria small tenon saw that I just let go, but maybe it just needs a little break in, we shall see. Overall, I would like a little more heft, but great saws at a great price.

[Chuck Tringo]

Ok, I had to check....the dovetail saw came out to 13.1 ounces, and the carcasse saw 13.8 ounces....for the size difference it almost seems as if the spines on the carcasse saws are a little less dense than on the dovetail. Maybe Rob can chime in and let us know, perhaps they changed the formula of the spine material a bit ?